Gun Control Laws - Where are we really? Where to go? (2 Viewers)

[LawFitz]

Frustrated post, Fitz, I admit.  Just so tired of posts telling me not to do something I have not done.  

Maybe since you understand it, you can explain it to FJ and others.  Maybe they will listen to you more? 

They understand it. I think they are just struggling to admit that they don't want to limit gun rights as a result of suicidal people. It's an uncomfortable thing to admit, but I just did so above from my personal perspective. Again, it doesn't mean that I don't care about suicides or suicidals - just not more than I do my right to protect myself, my family and my community.

 

[LawFitz]

^^^ But again, what is the case you are making in regards to gun legislation to prevent suicides? Clarify that and then maybe others can chime in as to whether or not it's worth it from their perspective. I've already outlined my view on this angle.

 

[FairWarning]

Jfc you guys-  this is not hard.  I have not done the bolded, nor has anyone in this thread to my knowledge. 

This reminds me of my nursing home visits.  My mother is trying to save me from the world,.  You are trying to ban or neuter their use because someone MAY commit suicide.  This is true nanny state stuff.   While we’re at it, let’s make it a 2-drink limit at home,.  How about g-rated movies because kids may see violence otherwise?  Would you like a 2-joint max because people who are high are more prone to accidents?  

 

[Nugget]

I'd bet he's a felon, not legally allowed to have a gun to begin with

Not sure on the felon part, but this story makes it sound like he printed the gun. 
 

https://fox4kc.com/news/suspect-in-nkc-officers-death-makes-court-appearance/amp/

 

[-fish-]

This reminds me of my nursing home visits.  My mother is trying to save me from the world,.  You are trying to ban or neuter their use because someone MAY commit suicide.  This is true nanny state stuff.   While we’re at it, let’s make it a 2-drink limit at home,.  How about g-rated movies because kids may see violence otherwise?  Would you like a 2-joint max because people who are high are more prone to accidents?  

but in another thread we have the same gun guys saying life is so precious that we should make all abortions illegal.  

 

[LawFitz]

but in another thread we have the same gun guys saying life is so precious that we should make all abortions illegal.  

And in other threads we have tons of Pro-Choice peeps saying your body MY choice in regards to vaccine mandates.

 

[-fish-]

I agree, but the problem is who gets to decide who is deemed to have mental health issues. Better not be you (or your proxies).

As long as it's not a guy with a wild west fantasy.

 

[KarmaPolice]

^^^ But again, what is the case you are making in regards to gun legislation to prevent suicides? Clarify that and then maybe others can chime in as to whether or not it's worth it from their perspective. I've already outlined my view on this angle.

I have, many times.  I also have said for 0 of the situations we are talking about I am asking for any sort of gun ban, again many times.  

What you said is about all I am asking for- I think mandatory safe storage of guns would go a long way to dropping those gun suicides.   Maybe also more education about it if there are any classes needed for acquiring a gun license in the state.  Other than that, just more mental health infrastructure and help

 

[KarmaPolice]

This reminds me of my nursing home visits.  My mother is trying to save me from the world,.  You are trying to ban or neuter their use because someone MAY commit suicide.  This is true nanny state stuff.   While we’re at it, let’s make it a 2-drink limit at home,.  How about g-rated movies because kids may see violence otherwise?  Would you like a 2-joint max because people who are high are more prone to accidents?  

 

[LawFitz]

I have, many times.  I also have said for 0 of the situations we are talking about I am asking for any sort of gun ban, again many times.  

What you said is about all I am asking for- I think mandatory safe storage of guns would go a long way to dropping those gun suicides.   Maybe also more education about it if there are any classes needed for acquiring a gun license in the state.  Other than that, just more mental health infrastructure and help

Are there folks here who disagree with what you're asking for? Seems there has been argument over the suicide angle for tens of pages now. I can't understand why anyone would be opposed to what you are suggesting.

(Red flag laws are something different entirely.)

 

[KarmaPolice]

And in other threads we have tons of Pro-Choice peeps saying your body MY choice in regards to vaccine mandates.

At any time do people ask why they view these things differently? 

Just like my focus on CC vs the home, vaccines during covid are different than abortion for me because it effects the community.  I basically don't give 2 ####s what people do in their house.  

 

[FairWarning]

but in another thread we have the same gun guys saying life is so precious that we should make all abortions illegal.  

I’m pro choice.

 

[LawFitz]

At any time do people ask why they view these things differently? 

Just like my focus on CC vs the home, vaccines during covid are different than abortion for me because it effects the community.  I basically don't give 2 ####s what people do in their house.  

I get your stance and honestly don't want to rehash the vaccine topic. But to your point about the nuanced differences between vax mandates vs. abortion bans...

Similar nuances exist between being Pro-Life in one corner of the political spectrum and being 2A above suicide prevention in another. That is the main point of why I responded to him. Neither whataboutism is an apples-to-apples comp.

 

[FairWarning]

At any time do people ask why they view these things differently? 

Just like my focus on CC vs the home, vaccines during covid are different than abortion for me because it effects the community.  I basically don't give 2 ####s what people do in their house.  

Why do people view things different?  Different life experiences mainly.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Are there folks here who disagree with what you're asking for? Seems there has been argument over the suicide angle for tens of pages now. I can't understand why anyone would be opposed to what you are suggesting.

(Red flag laws are something different entirely.)

Yes, there are people against storage laws or things I am suggesting.  

There are also people who, maybe for reasons you said, don't seem to understand simple stats and concepts around suicide and mental health, but are convinced it's the core issue for everything. 

 

[FairWarning]

Not sure on the felon part, but this story makes it sound like he printed the gun. 
 

https://fox4kc.com/news/suspect-in-nkc-officers-death-makes-court-appearance/amp/

That is scary.  Unfortunately it won’t be the last you’ll hear of these 3D guns.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I’m pro choice.

Don't you mean pro-abortion?

 

[FairWarning]

Yes, there are people against storage laws or things I am suggesting.  

There are also people who, maybe for reasons you said, don't seem to understand simple stats and concepts around suicide and mental health, but are convinced it's the core issue for everything. 

Part of the disconnect is you’re looking at stats while others are not.  We are looking at this from two opposite directions.  
 

If you worked in a store that sold guns, like a Cabellas,  could you sell a gun?  

 

[LawFitz]

That is scary.  Unfortunately it won’t be the last you’ll hear of these 3D guns.

The genie is long out of the bottle. This is why 2A is more important than ever. It shouldn't be only the bad guys who have access to the most lethal weapons.

 

[FairWarning]

Don't you mean pro-abortion?

I’m a little more socially lib.  I’m glad not to make that decision. 

 

[-fish-]

Part of the disconnect is you’re looking at stats while others are not.  We are looking at this from two opposite directions.  
 

If you worked in a store that sold guns, like a Cabellas,  could you sell a gun?  

Are you saying that you don't look at statistics?

 

[KarmaPolice]

Part of the disconnect is you’re looking at stats while others are not.  We are looking at this from two opposite directions.  
 

If you worked in a store that sold guns, like a Cabellas,  could you sell a gun?  

Why in the world would you not look at stats and articles? 

Yes, I don't have that much of an aversion to guns that I couldn't sell one if it's my job.  Like I said, I am not even asking for gun bans and barely mentioning different types of guns.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Why do people view things different?  Different life experiences mainly.  

I should be clearer.  I get why people view things differently. 

That example I quoted is largely lobbed back and forth in what seems like a "gotcha" attempt to point out inconsistent thinking.  As I posted, it really isn't that inconsistent, imo. 

 

[FairWarning]

Why in the world would you not look at stats and articles? 

Yes, I don't have that much of an aversion to guns that I couldn't sell one if it's my job.  Like I said, I am not even asking for gun bans and barely mentioning different types of guns.

What if it was to a person that you consider questionable, but passes everything - you’ll have no problems selling?  
 

what is the number of suicides that is a lot, 2%, 10%?  I personally don’t know.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I get your stance and honestly don't want to rehash the vaccine topic. But to your point about the nuanced differences between vax mandates vs. abortion bans...

Similar nuances exist between being Pro-Life in one corner of the political spectrum and being 2A above suicide prevention in another. That is the main point of why I responded to him. Neither whataboutism is an apples-to-apples comp.

Of course they are.  My point was instead of engaging with each other and asking the why's , we (the psf in general) do the annoying "but, my body my choice, right?" stuff. 

Anyway, my stance is largely do what the #### you want at home.  When it's out in the community, then let's chat.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

What if it was to a person that you consider questionable, but passes everything - you’ll have no problems selling?  
 

what is the number of suicides that is a lot, 2%, 10%?  I personally don’t know.

I get what you are saying.  If I accepted the job, I would do the job.  If I felt the system wasn't good enough to catch the bad people during a background check, I probably wouldn't take the job.  I am about as outdoorsy as I am mechanical, so Cabellas is about the last place I'd seek employment, so this line of questioning is hard for me to imagine. 

not sure what you are asking with the last part.  I think the highest rates for countries are something like 30-40deaths/100k people.  I believe we are between 15-16/100k. 

 

[FairWarning]

I get what you are saying.  If I accepted the job, I would do the job.  If I felt the system wasn't good enough to catch the bad people during a background check, I probably wouldn't take the job.  I am about as outdoorsy as I am mechanical, so Cabellas is about the last place I'd seek employment, so this line of questioning is hard for me to imagine. 

not sure what you are asking with the last part.  I think the highest rates for countries are something like 30-40deaths/100k people.  I believe we are between 15-16/100k. 

Personally I would like to see a cooling off period from the day of buying a gun until they can pick it up 3-5 business days?)

 

[(HULK)]

I may be heartless but suicides aren't on my list of reasons to increase gun control.

I'm far far far more concerned with the guns that are used to kill people who had no choice in the matter. Especially when they're children.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I may be heartless but suicides aren't on my list of reasons to increase gun control.

I'm far far far more concerned with the guns that are used to kill people who had no choice in the matter. Especially when they're children.

Imo it's one of the easiest and simplest things to address as far as gun deaths go, and gun regulations.  Be responsible, store your crap, and keep your guns out of other people's hands.   A lot of those rising gun deaths from kids are the suicide stats as well.  That's why I keep bringing it up.  

If someone's goal was to reduce the gun deaths in the country, imo this an obvious starting point. 

 

[[icon]]

Your right to carry does not extend onto private property where you are told not to.   That's not state action.   You seem very confused about how laws work.

Sigh... 

if a private business posts a sign that does not comply with state law, I am 100% within my rights to carry on that property until they formally request me to leave the property or disarm. 

Yes, if they personally ask me to leave for any reason, (which they can do) I will (as stated before). 

However simply carrying onto properly that is improperly posted is NOT grounds for criminal trespass charge.

YOU seem to be the one who is very confused on how these laws work (in most states at least, definitely in Tennessee)

 

[[icon]]

You don't really understand what Bruen says.   You keep citing it like it magically exempted gun owners from state laws.

Oh.....  my bad... so state laws that fly directly in the face of Supreme Court precedent will hold up under challenge in court now? 

Bruen made it pretty clear that the 2nd amendment protected an individual's right to carry outside the home, provided they follow state procedure to applying for concealed carry permits and meet standard requirements (ie not a felon, etc). 

So, yes... an qualified individual SHALL be issued a carry permit and CAN carry legally in their car (per the topic of the post you quoted). 

Without looking I'd wager MOST states don't even require a permit to carry in car, though. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Imo it's one of the easiest and simplest things to address as far as gun deaths go, and gun regulations.  Be responsible, store your crap, and keep your guns out of other people's hands.   A lot of those rising gun deaths from kids are the suicide stats as well.  That's why I keep bringing it up.  

If someone's goal was to reduce the gun deaths in the country, imo this an obvious starting point. 

I could see how that would help a little, but many of the crimes people really focus on - school type shootings aren't impulse crimes, so we'd have to pump the brakes on any expectations of that policy putting a dent in those things.   Can't hurt though, and would put that on the common sense regulation list.  

 

[[icon]]

but in another thread we have the same gun guys saying life is so precious that we should make all abortions illegal.  

Not all of us... 

 

[Stealthycat]

Not sure on the felon part, but this story makes it sound like he printed the gun. 
 

https://fox4kc.com/news/suspect-in-nkc-officers-death-makes-court-appearance/amp/

"According to the warrant, officers spoke to Rocha’s mom who said her son admitted to her he made a fully automatic AR and other guns with the 3D printer he owned."

first I've heard of that being done but, he's illegal for doing it since he don't have a permit for a fully auto weapon .... and it obviously wasn't an "AR" 

I'm still waiting to see reports if he was a felon 

 

[Stealthycat]

Be responsible, store your crap, and keep your guns out of other people's hands

how are you going to force people to do that? all that is already common sense

 

[Stealthycat]

but in another thread we have the same gun guys saying life is so precious that we should make all abortions illegal.  

you are trying to compare intentionally killing 850,000-1,000,000 unborn innocent lives with the accidental deaths of people in homes with guns ??

 

[Nugget]

"According to the warrant, officers spoke to Rocha’s mom who said her son admitted to her he made a fully automatic AR and other guns with the 3D printer he owned."

first I've heard of that being done but, he's illegal for doing it since he don't have a permit for a fully auto weapon .... and it obviously wasn't an "AR" 

I'm still waiting to see reports if he was a felon 

Local media hasn’t commented on previous criminal history.  Below was a Reddit comment, so take it with a big grain of salt.

“His CaseNet listing has all sorts of (relatively) minor mostly-traffic offenses over the past year, all of them made worse by adding failure to appear.   But none of them are anything that would have gotten him more than 30 days max, and that's if he behaved like an ### in court and/or the judge was in a bad mood.  Most likely he'd have served a couple of days tops (if even that) plus some fines or community service.

Now instead he'll never see the light of day again.”

 

[Stealthycat]

Local media hasn’t commented on previous criminal history.  Below was a Reddit comment, so take it with a big grain of salt.

“His CaseNet listing has all sorts of (relatively) minor mostly-traffic offenses over the past year, all of them made worse by adding failure to appear.   But none of them are anything that would have gotten him more than 30 days max, and that's if he behaved like an ### in court and/or the judge was in a bad mood.  Most likely he'd have served a couple of days tops (if even that) plus some fines or community service.

Now instead he'll never see the light of day again.”

IMO it'd be much much harder and more expensive to buy the equipment and print a fully auto gun than it would to just go buy a sem-auto AR platform gun 

that doesn't make sense, and he'd have to have tested his gun quite a bit to make sure it all worked properly I'd think ?

I have zero experience with 3D printing, but I sure would like to see that gun he made/used, what caliber was it etc

 

[[icon]]

I may be heartless but suicides aren't on my list of reasons to increase gun control.

I'm far far far more concerned with the guns that are used to kill people who had no choice in the matter. Especially when they're children.

This. 100%

Suicides are a blip on the radar for me, and I'll generally want to look at data with Suicides removed as I'm interested in reducing gun CRIME.

Don't get me wrong.... I ALSO want suicides reduced among people who who've not fully thought through the decision (while allowing for viable self-euthanizing).

However, IMO that's a separate issue and falls under my "Just because one idiot ####s their pants doesn't mean we should all walk around in diapers" mantra.  

 

[[icon]]

"According to the warrant, officers spoke to Rocha’s mom who said her son admitted to her he made a fully automatic AR and other guns with the 3D printer he owned."

first I've heard of that being done but, he's illegal for doing it since he don't have a permit for a fully auto weapon .... and it obviously wasn't an "AR" 

Yep. For better or worse, the Cat is out of the bag. 

https://ctrlpew.com/ has details/files on how to print a wide range of weapons. They've aggressively pushed 3D printed weapons as a means for citizens of oppressive regimes to gain some power back vs authoritarian governments who have disarmed them.... and it's helped in some cases already. I support this application 100%. 

Unfortunately as with any technology, you'll get some n'er do wells using it for evil.... like this dickmitten. They should make an example out of him IMO and push for the death penalty. 

Their mantra is "You Can't Stop The Signal"... which is true. That cat is out of the bag and there is not stopping it. 

 

[[icon]]

IMO it'd be much much harder and more expensive to buy the equipment and print a fully auto gun than it would to just go buy a sem-auto AR platform gun 

that doesn't make sense, and he'd have to have tested his gun quite a bit to make sure it all worked properly I'd think ?

I have zero experience with 3D printing, but I sure would like to see that gun he made/used, what caliber was it etc

The vast majority of 3D printed weapons utilize pistol calibers (9mm being very common) due to the high pressures of rifle calibers. That said, printing materials, printers themselves, and modelers/designers creating the files have all advanced to the point there are quality printable rifle caliber weapons in circulation. 

The full-auto component is simply an auto sear that is indeed printable. Files are widely available but are a felony to possess.  It's also important to note that materials used here are CRITICAL. Too soft and it may wear out after a magazine or two. .Too hard and you'll wear the expensive internals of your firearm.

Either way.. cat is out of the bag on these as well. There was a popular "bottle opener" design circulating that also happened to work as a drop in auto sear. 

In the end I'm a big proponent of 3D printable firearms, while also supporting strong enforcement of existing laws when they're used illegally. 

 

[Stealthycat]

Yep. For better or worse, the Cat is out of the bag. 

https://ctrlpew.com/ has details/files on how to print a wide range of weapons. They've aggressively pushed 3D printed weapons as a means for citizens of oppressive regimes to gain some power back vs authoritarian governments who have disarmed them.... and it's helped in some cases already. I support this application 100%. 

Unfortunately as with any technology, you'll get some n'er do wells using it for evil.... like this dickmitten. They should make an example out of him IMO and push for the death penalty. 

Their mantra is "You Can't Stop The Signal"... which is true. That cat is out of the bag and there is not stopping it. 

you shoot and know gun owners ... you ever talked to anyone or show a 3D gun yourself ??   

I suppose he could have printed a 9mm fully auto with an arm support or stock etc .... NOT an AR platform like was reported but hey, if you gotta lie to get your agenda that's just part of it for anti-gunners :(

 

[[icon]]

you shoot and know gun owners ... you ever talked to anyone or show a 3D gun yourself ??   

I suppose he could have printed a 9mm fully auto with an arm support or stock etc .... NOT an AR platform like was reported but hey, if you gotta lie to get your agenda that's just part of it for anti-gunners :(

I've personally never laid hands on a 3D printed weapon.
I won't speak to friends who may or may not have printed weapons and/or auto sears. 

It's certainly possible he's printed an AR platform setup, but my GUESS is it's slightly more likely to be a 9mm setup. 

 

[Stealthycat]

I've personally never laid hands on a 3D printed weapon.
I won't speak to friends who may or may not have printed weapons and/or auto sears. 

It's certainly possible he's printed an AR platform setup, but my GUESS is it's slightly more likely to be a 9mm setup. 

I'd be really really leery of shooting a printed gun was all I was getting at - to me, it'd be like putting a .243 shell in a Nerf gun and somehow getting it to fire 

 

[(HULK)]

I fully expect the NRA to support cracking down on 3d printed guns hard.

Not to increase safety, but because when people can print their own guns, it hurts the profits of the gun manufacturers.

 

[Stealthycat]

I think they are just struggling to admit that they don't want to limit gun rights as a result of suicidal people

suicidal people are the core problems - not the means they choose for death

we have a lot of rules/restrictions/limitations right now on guns

 

[Stealthycat]

I fully expect the NRA to support cracking down on 3d printed guns hard.

Not to increase safety, but because when people can print their own guns, it hurts the profits of the gun manufacturers.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20180731/nra-statement-on-3-d-printers-and-plastic-firearms

Regardless of what a person may be able to publish on the Internet, undetectable plastic guns have been illegal for 30 years.  Federal law passed in 1988, crafted with the NRA’s support, makes it unlawful to manufacture, import, sell, ship, deliver, possess, transfer, or receive an undetectable firearm.”

 

[KarmaPolice]

I can't keep track of all these "core" problems.   I mean, besides it can never, ever, ever have anything to do with a gun or access to said weapon.   

 

[Football Jones]

Yep, still don't get it.   The bolded is not true.   Like I said, people don't seem to bother reading about these things or understanding them.  

Yes, attempts would stay the same.  Been shown many times that attempts with a gun are faaaaaar more successful than any other method.  Then combine that with stats on if they try again after a failed one to understand the situation.  

I thought I wouldn't have to explain this, but I realize guns are effective.

Mental health, man.

 

[[icon]]

I'd be really really leery of shooting a printed gun was all I was getting at - to me, it'd be like putting a .243 shell in a Nerf gun and somehow getting it to fire 

This is a Common misconception... 

3D printed guns don't print the whole firearm.

They usually print the part of the receiver that Is serialized,  sometimes some other parts.... then you build out the rest of the gun using kits/parts readily available on the market. 

https://jsdsupply.com/3d-printed-gun-frames/

https://ghostguns.com/product-category/3d-print/

3D printed guns are generally quite safe and utilize the same type of metal barrels, chambers, etc as the OEM firearm.