Gun Control Laws - Where are we really? Where to go? (3 Viewers)

[Stealthycat]

the guy who sold an 18 year old an AR15. 

what?  why?  what was wrong with the sale ?

if he'd have bought a car and drove it through a parade - would you blame the car salesman ?

 

[Stealthycat]

I would hate to "impact tens of millions of people who've done nothing wrong" by making their neat hobby slightly more inconvenient.

When do we start referring to gun violence fatalities as "convenience shootings?"

its a Constitutional Right - its vastly more than a hobby (see the above links to the West Virginia woman stopping a mass murder)  and yes, impacting tens of millions for a toothless law is a very ridiculous thing to do

what if we tried as a society to stop just the people who's doing these things without infringing on tens of millions who have done nothing wrong ?

 

[Stealthycat]

You do realize that we are trying to limit these shootings and to limit the damage from each shooting.  We understand that it is probably impossible to stop them completely, but a lot of the suggestions will move the needle towards limiting them.

You keep giving scenarios where they can get around these restrictions.  We understand this.  There is no perfect solution that will stop these completely.  Does that mean we shouldn't try to limit them.

I don't know that ya'll are, no. Uvalde wasn't D'Hanis - it was wide open, filled with victims with no security around them

Stopping them completely no - but security and armed teachers would go LONG WAY - and anit-gun people hate that, they fight it, hard.

I keep giving scenarios to show you how you cannot take 1 type of weapon away from murderers and expect it to make a difference because it hasn't and it's not stopping the murdering. Stop the murderer before he acts (like the examples I've given) or, stop him by shooting him and killing her before he hurts anyone (like the WV woman I put a link to)

Do those things and it won't matter if we have 150 million AR15's in the hands of 150 million law abiding American's 

Just for one time - focus on the core problems, I can't say that enough

 

[moleculo]

its a Constitutional Right - its vastly more than a hobby (see the above links to the West Virginia woman stopping a mass murder)  and yes, impacting tens of millions for a toothless law is a very ridiculous thing to do

what if we tried as a society to stop just the people who's doing these things without infringing on tens of millions who have done nothing wrong ?

 Any time anyone even speaks about "well regulating the militia", you guys cry a damn river about it.  There are limits to rights, even constitutional ones. 

You cannot own a fully automatic weapon without jumping thru hoops.  Can we impose those same hoops for semi-automatic weapons, or does that make your hobby too inconvenient?

(yes, I acknowledge the WV woman.  She's a hero.  You can stop referencing her now).

 

[moleculo]

what?  why?  what was wrong with the sale ?

if he'd have bought a car and drove it through a parade - would you blame the car salesman ?

it is legal to sell multiple high capacity, high caliber fire arms to an unstable 18 year old.  We, as a society, say he isn't mature enough to drink alcohol, but we are fine handing him an AR15 w/o supervision.  

What is right about that? 

 

[Amused to Death]

I keep giving scenarios to show you how you cannot take 1 type of weapon away from murderers and expect it to make a difference because it hasn't and it's not stopping the murdering.

Other Countries Had Mass Shootings. Then They Changed Their Gun Laws.
Britain, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Norway: All had a culture of gun ownership, and all tightened restrictions anyway. Their violence statistics now diverge sharply from those of the U.S.

 

[Amused to Death]

At least two Republicans show support for an AR-15 ban.

 

[belljr]

I know CARS have been mentioned a lot but federal regulations have been put in [lace to try to save lives

1966 seat belts are mandatory in cars

1998 airbags are madatory

There are other laws the NHTSA/Congress require automakers to follow all in making automobiles as safe as possible.

So can we please stop with "ban cars" when the federal goverment has passed regulations to make things safer.... Yes I know its not zero

 

[Stealthycat]

 Any time anyone even speaks about "well regulating the militia", you guys cry a damn river about it.  There are limits to rights, even constitutional ones. 

You cannot own a fully automatic weapon without jumping thru hoops.  Can we impose those same hoops for semi-automatic weapons, or does that make your hobby too inconvenient?

(yes, I acknowledge the WV woman.  She's a hero.  You can stop referencing her now).

No, that's unreasonable and infringing and well beyond common sense gun laws for semi-auto weapons. Of the 100 million or 125 million semi-auto guns legally owned in the USA today ... how many were used wrong? 10? 30 ? 100 ? Now ... How many were used RIGHT ? 

That's something that's sensible, infringe heavily on 100 million people for an exceptional few using guns wrongly? Really? Do we treat anything else like that ? Anything ?    And might I add, many murders using guns are NOT legal to begin with, the laws on the books are not stopping these people. The people ... its THE PEOPLE DOING THESE things that's the problem :(  

Its not a hobby for many people - its self defense. Its not frisbee golf. 

 

[moleculo]

No, that's unreasonable and infringing and well beyond common sense gun laws for semi-auto weapons. Of the 100 million or 125 million semi-auto guns legally owned in the USA today ... how many were used wrong? 10? 30 ? 100 ? Now ... How many were used RIGHT ? 

That's something that's sensible, infringe heavily on 100 million people for an exceptional few using guns wrongly? Really? Do we treat anything else like that ? Anything ?    And might I add, many murders using guns are NOT legal to begin with, the laws on the books are not stopping these people. The people ... its THE PEOPLE DOING THESE things that's the problem :(  

Its not a hobby for many people - its self defense. Its not frisbee golf. 

Where is your threshhold?  how many mass shootings (i.e. convenience killings) will it take for you to change your stance?  Clearly, we haven't passed that number for you to consider limiting your neat hobby*.

To answer your question - shoes were used as a bomb on an airplane exactly once.  How many shoes were used properly on a plane, before or afterwards?  but now, we have to take off our shoes when we go thru security.  I wish the shoe industry was as aggressive maintaining convenience as the NRA.

* don't give me self defense.  There are other means.  The rest of the modern world doesn't rely on AR15 for self defense.

 

[Stealthycat]

it is legal to sell multiple high capacity, high caliber fire arms to an unstable 18 year old.  We, as a society, say he isn't mature enough to drink alcohol, but we are fine handing him an AR15 w/o supervision.  

What is right about that? 

there isn't anything "right" when it comes to buying/selling ... its legal or it isn't. I can list several things legal that isn't "right". I got no problems selling guns to 18 year olds ... they can marry, have kids, vote, they can drive down the road in a 4500 pound vehicle and we trust them to have jobs ...... why not own a gun? 99.99% of them do it right and legal .... I'd not try and take things from 99.99 because 0.01 breaks the law - that's crazy

do you really want to analyze "right" based on an 18 year old doing things that results in deaths?

 

[Amused to Death]

there isn't anything "right" when it comes to buying/selling ... its legal or it isn't. I can list several things legal that isn't "right". I got no problems selling guns to 18 year olds ... they can marry, have kids, vote, they can drive down the road in a 4500 pound vehicle and we trust them to have jobs ...... why not own a gun? 99.99% of them do it right and legal .... I'd not try and take things from 99.99 because 0.01 breaks the law - that's crazy

do you really want to analyze "right" based on an 18 year old doing things that results in deaths?

Hopefully we can start by raising the age to buy certain classifications of guns. There seems to be some bipartisan support for that.

 

[Stealthycat]

Where is your threshhold?  how many mass shootings (i.e. convenience killings) will it take for you to change your stance?  Clearly, we haven't passed that number for you to consider limiting your neat hobby*.

To answer your question - shoes were used as a bomb on an airplane exactly once.  How many shoes were used properly on a plane, before or afterwards?  but now, we have to take off our shoes when we go thru security.  I wish the shoe industry was as aggressive maintaining convenience as the NRA.

* don't give me self defense.  There are other means.  The rest of the modern world doesn't rely on AR15 for self defense.

my threshold ...... I believe in common sense voting laws, common sense border laws, common sense gun laws, common sense marriage laws ........ common sense is operative word

(flying isn't a constitutional right btw) and what you're talking about is hardening airports ... so lets harden schools? add security, kids take their shoes off, clear backpacks, armed guards etc ....  we didn't ban shoes nationwide did we? 

I don't care about the rest of the world

 

[Stealthycat]

Hopefully we can start by raising the age to buy certain classifications of guns. There seems to be some bipartisan support for that.

and when it has zero impact on total murders/mass shootings will you admit it was all fluff and toothless and only a political stunt/failure ?

 

[FairWarning]

Other Countries Had Mass Shootings. Then They Changed Their Gun Laws.
Britain, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Norway: All had a culture of gun ownership, and all tightened restrictions anyway. Their violence statistics now diverge sharply from those of the U.S.

And Canada wants to basically end the sale of guns.  I understand your point, but this is the gun owners fears here - its a valid point also.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Well, hopefully we are doing more than just that one thing, and murders/mass shootings will drop.       I won't be happy if just raising the age limit on some guns is the only thing that comes out of this.  (and really unhappy if it's just armed gaurds at schools). 

 

[Amused to Death]

And Canada wants to basically end the sale of guns.  I understand your point, but this is the gun owners fears here - its a valid point also.

I get that fear, but I was responding to @Stealthycat statement that banning one type of gun makes no difference. Real life examples show otherwise.

 

[FairWarning]

Where is your threshhold?  how many mass shootings (i.e. convenience killings) will it take for you to change your stance?  Clearly, we haven't passed that number for you to consider limiting your neat hobby*.

To answer your question - shoes were used as a bomb on an airplane exactly once.  How many shoes were used properly on a plane, before or afterwards?  but now, we have to take off our shoes when we go thru security.  I wish the shoe industry was as aggressive maintaining convenience as the NRA.

* don't give me self defense.  There are other means.  The rest of the modern world doesn't rely on AR15 for self defense.

What is your threshold?  As long as there are guns in society, there is always the chance of a mass shooting.  Serious question here.

 

[FairWarning]

Well, hopefully we are doing more than just that one thing, and murders/mass shootings will drop.       I won't be happy if just raising the age limit on some guns is the only thing that comes out of this.  (and really unhappy if it's just armed gaurds at schools). 

Agree, more will have to be done.

 

[moleculo]

my threshold ...... I believe in common sense voting laws, common sense border laws, common sense gun laws, common sense marriage laws ........ common sense is operative word

(flying isn't a constitutional right btw) and what you're talking about is hardening airports ... so lets harden schools? add security, kids take their shoes off, clear backpacks, armed guards etc ....  we didn't ban shoes nationwide did we? 

I don't care about the rest of the world

1. Common sense is not very common.  When I hear "common sense", it means someone is trying to impose what they think is right for everyone else without thinking it thru.  "It's just common sense" = I can't explain why I think I'm right. 

2. Uvalde was "hardened".

3. you don't care because you don't like the solutions.

 

[FairWarning]

1. Common sense is not very common.  When I hear "common sense", it means someone is trying to impose what they think is right for everyone else without thinking it thru.  "It's just common sense" = I can't explain why I think I'm right. 

2. Uvalde was "hardened".

3. you don't care because you don't like the solutions.

You may need to find people with better common sense.

 

[moleculo]

What is your threshold?  As long as there are guns in society, there is always the chance of a mass shooting.  Serious question here.

there was a time when airline crashes were fairly regular - like every couple of years or so.  The FAA got serious about inspections, regulations, and whatnot and we haven't had one in 20 years or so.  

We can do big things in this country if we want to.  If we decide we don't want to have any more school shootings, at all, we can do it.  Heck, nearly every other developed nation has figured it out.

So, my threshold is zero, and I'm really dumbfounded the same doesn't apply for everyone.

 

[moleculo]

You may need to find people with better common sense.

believe me, I agree.

 

[Amused to Death]

and when it has zero impact on total murders/mass shootings will you admit it was all fluff and toothless and only a political stunt/failure ?

At some point I hope the GOP will come to the table with some concessions. Raising the age for semi-auto weapons, increased mental health care access, improved or expanded background checks, license requirements for various weapons classifications.

We need good-faith conversations and negotiations across the aisle.

 

[FairWarning]

there was a time when airline crashes were fairly regular - like every couple of years or so.  The FAA got serious about inspections, regulations, and whatnot and we haven't had one in 20 years or so.  

We can do big things in this country if we want to.  If we decide we don't want to have any more school shootings, at all, we can do it.  Heck, nearly every other developed nation has figured it out.

So, my thresh hold is zero, and I'm really dumbfounded the same doesn't apply for everyone.

I think we all want no more school shootings.  Heck, my brother and his wife are teachers, and her entire family are also.  Nothing really gets changed until we change the culture of killing though.  

 

[FairWarning]

At some point I hope the GOP will come to the table with some concessions. Raising the age for semi-auto weapons, increased mental health care access, improved or expanded background checks, license requirements for various weapons classifications.

We need good-faith conversations and negotiations across the aisle.

It it were hockey, the refs would toss these bums out of the face off circle.  Maybe we need some different people from both sides discussing this instead of Chuck, Mitch, and other career politicians.

 

[BladeRunner]

At some point I hope the GOP will come to the table with some concessions. Raising the age for semi-auto weapons, increased mental health care access, improved or expanded background checks, license requirements for various weapons classifications.

We need good-faith conversations and negotiations across the aisle.

I'm with you on this.  I'm all for closing the private sales loophole and raising the age (with exceptions for LEO's, military, etc...).

 

[[icon]]

Took 30 mins this morning to drop an email to my senators to oppose Booker's Gun Control Bill as it stands. About a dozen buddies in one group did the same. Already heard back from one.

Also bumped up monthly contribution to FPC. 

Wish this stuff wasn't necessary but it is at times like these. 

 

[JIslander]

Took 30 mins this morning to drop an email to my senators to oppose Booker's Gun Control Bill as it stands. About a dozen buddies in one group did the same. Already heard back from one.

Also bumped up monthly contribution to FPC. 

Wish this stuff wasn't necessary but it is at times like these. 

I haven't seen the bill.  What's in it that you aren't behind?

 

[[icon]]

25yo Hyannis man arrested after Social Media post threatening to shoot up a school. 

Good job
https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/i-hate-you-all-so-much-cape-cod-man-arraigned-facebook-threat-shoot-up-school/X4FG626Q5ZEKPA3QNJE5UEXBL4/

 

[[icon]]

I haven't seen the bill.  What's in it that you aren't behind?

Mandatory license purchase, background check, fingerprinting and registration of each firearm. Must be renewed every 5 years. Not on shall issue basis. 
 

It's punitive toward lower income individuals, allows an AG to gate-keep approvals, and contains a gun registration clause. 

The bill  dead in the water. 

 

[BladeRunner]

Mandatory license purchase, background check, fingerprinting and registration of each firearm. Must be renewed every 5 years. Not on shall issue basis. 

The bill  dead in the water. 

Yep.  Happens every time.  They go directly for EVERYTHING ON THE AGENDA instead of the low-hanging fruit that we all agree on.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I feel like the best strategy for Democrats right now would be to propose a bill that both restricts guns and cuts taxes on corporations.

 

[Orange&Blue]

here are the changes I would propose:

1. guns to be purchased only from licensed dealer/broker.  no more of this "gun show" loophole or private purchase business.  If want to sell your gun, you are going to have to go thru a broker.  Selling a gun without a license should be a felony.  This is important to prevent work-around for all other restrictions.
   
2. different license requirements for different classes of weapons.  I would seek assistance for defining classes from our gun enthusiast friends.  If fully-automatic weapon access can be restricted, similar restrictions can apply to different classes.  Semi-automatic high capacity guns should be treated than low capacity revolvers, shotguns, bolt-action hunting rifles, etc. 
   
3. If you want an AR15, you have a right to own one but you need to have a special license.  This requires a deeper background check including social media, psych evaluation, class work, etc, similar to a CCW class.  it will probably between a few hundred and a thousand dollars.  Licenses are only good for a few years - they will need to be renewed regularly. Possession of such a weapon without license is a felony.
   
4. No license required for other classes of guns - I'm talking about bolt action hunting rifles, shotguns, and revolvers.  Again, let the gun-guys help define this.
   
5. Purchase age for all guns to be raised to 21.
   
6. 14 day waiting period.  However, I could be ok with something like TSAPre-check, where you can skip the waiting period.
   
7. multiple infractions of felony weapons possession or sale will result in looong prison sentences -20 years or so.  Put some teeth behind this so people take it serious.
   
8. To transition in, there would be a grace period where current owners would have to either sell their guns (thru a broker) or acquire the license.  After that, it's on.
   

Legit gun shop owners should support this as it would funnel more business to them - they could sell guns on consignment, where they facilitate the transaction.  No big deal.  They are there to make sure everything is on the up and up.  In this manner, the pro-gun community can police itself.  Guys like @[icon] would be free to acquire a dealer license and they could help ensure guns are purchased responsibly.

There would be no changes for traditional hunting rifles or self defense guns, and I am asking the gun crowd to help with the regulations.  It's quite clear to me that people who don't know guns shouldn't be crafting gun laws.

What do you guys think of this?

I would add something about gifting guns.  You can do it, but it has to be tracked through a broker/etc. 

 

[The Z Machine]

That's pretty close to the plans I outlined aside from the waiting period.  Some slight differences but overall is a rough plan I could get behind. 

This is true common sense gun control reform. If enacted by Congress, could this withstand a SCOTUS review?

 

[[icon]]

This is true common sense gun control reform. If enacted by Congress, could this withstand a SCOTUS review?

Honest answer, don't know. FPC and GOA have been absolutely kicking ### in state and federal courts lately.  Lots of newish folks in the court as well. 

 

[The Z Machine]

Honest answer, don't know. FPC and GOA have been absolutely kicking ### in state and federal courts lately.  Lots of newish folks in the court as well. 

That's one of my major issues right now.  Any true reform that makes it harder to obtain weapons will likely be struck down by the courts.  I don't agree with this interpretation of the 2A, but if we want to actually make change we have to alter the court or alter the Constitution. 

 

[lazyike]

 Any time anyone even speaks about "well regulating the militia", you guys cry a damn river about it.  There are limits to rights, even constitutional ones. 

You cannot own a fully automatic weapon without jumping thru hoops.  Can we impose those same hoops for semi-automatic weapons, or does that make your hobby too inconvenient?

(yes, I acknowledge the WV woman.  She's a hero.  You can stop referencing her now).

Too much focus on semi automatic part of the assault rifle. I own  a lever action deer rifle and a semi automatic deer rifle. Put a 50 round magazine clip in my lever action and it would inflict much more carnage and casualties than my semi automatic with a 4 shot clip. While I support the assault weapons ban as a gun owner it is much more important for me to see background checks, red flag laws, and high capacity clips banned. 

 

[moleculo]

Too much focus on semi automatic part of the assault rifle. I own a a lever action deer rifle and a semi automatic deer rifle. Put a 50 round magazine clip in my lever action and it would inflict much more carnage and casualties than my semi automatic with a 4 shot clip. While I support the assault weapons ban as a gun owner definitely I want background checks, red flag laws, and high capacity clips banned. 

Sure.  High capacity is definitely a problem.  In my plan, revolvers, shotguns and bolt action guns should have a very low level of regulation - basically what we have today.

 

[[icon]]

That's one of my major issues right now.  Any true reform that makes it harder to obtain weapons will likely be struck down by the courts.  I don't agree with this interpretation of the 2A, but if we want to actually make change we have to alter the court or alter the Constitution. 

I'm personally VERY firmly against altering a structure of the Supreme Court that has been in place for a century and a half. 

 

 

[[icon]]

Too much focus on semi automatic part of the assault rifle. I own  a lever action deer rifle and a semi automatic deer rifle. Put a 50 round magazine clip in my lever action and it would inflict much more carnage and casualties than my semi automatic with a 4 shot clip. While I support the assault weapons ban as a gun owner it is much more important for me to see background checks, red flag laws, and high capacity clips banned. 

standard capacity for AR platform is 30 rounds. High capacity would be 50 or 100 round drums which, frankly, are less reliable than standard magazines. 

I'd entertain the idea of bans of drum magazines over 30 rounds, but restricting standard 30 round magazines is off the negotiating table for me, 

 

[BladeRunner]

standard capacity for AR platform is 30 rounds. High capacity would be 50 or 100 round drums which, frankly, are less reliable than standard magazines. 

I'd entertain the idea of bans of drum magazines over 30 rounds, but restricting standard 30 round magazines is off the negotiating table for me, 

Yep,  like the term "Assault Rifle", "high capacity magazine" is also a misnomer and simply used to misrepresent in order to push narratives and get votes.

 

[lazyike]

standard capacity for AR platform is 30 rounds. High capacity would be 50 or 100 round drums which, frankly, are less reliable than standard magazines. 

I'd entertain the idea of bans of drum magazines over 30 rounds, but restricting standard 30 round magazines is off the negotiating table for me, 

As a gun owner who has done a lot of shooting with 4 shot clips I disagree. It's all I need and a considerable majority 73% want these high capacity clips banned. But your minority opinion is noted.

https://www.google.com/search?q=poll+majority+want+high+capacity+magazine+clips+banned&oq=poll+majority+want+high+capacity+magazine+clips+banned&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160.24500j0j4&client=ms-android-att-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

 

[BladeRunner]

As a gun owner who has done a lot of shooting with 4 shot clips I disagree. It's all I need and a considerable majority 73% want these high capacity clips banned. But your minority opinion is noted.

https://www.google.com/search?q=poll+majority+want+high+capacity+magazine+clips+banned&oq=poll+majority+want+high+capacity+magazine+clips+banned&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160.24500j0j4&client=ms-android-att-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Maybe these 50/100 round drums like icon said, but 30 round magazine is standard.  It's not high-capacity.

 

[lazyike]

Maybe these 50/100 round drums like icon said, but 30 round magazine is standard.  It's not high-capacity.

I am sure that nothing that substantial regarding any gun control measures will take place at this time. Pretty sure the majority will be very disappointed in any legistation that will happen this year.

 

[moleculo]

If it were up to me, I would heavily regulate any gun that can accept a magazine.  

30 rounds sounds normal to you guys...waay to high IMO.

 

[RCon]

I'm personally VERY firmly against altering a structure of the Supreme Court that has been in place for a century and a half. 

Not to speak for him, but pretty sure he meant by replacing them with more liberal members over time.

 

[Stealthycat]

I get that fear, but I was responding to @Stealthycat statement that banning one type of gun makes no difference. Real life examples show otherwise.

what was that study / link again ?  seems murders still happened, mass murders too, they just used other weapons didn't they ?

we have common sense gun laws right now and we have thousands of laws saying not to murder people ......... if people STILL are doing those things ... don't you think the core problem are those very few people and they need to be dealt with ?

or are you okay with violence evil murdering people walking around in our society ? because taking guns from law abiding people is NOT going to remove all those violent murderers and so we circle back to who really wants to rid society of these people and  stop them and who just really wants to follow a political agenda and allow them to rape/kill/hurt as long as they don't do it with certain kinds of guns ?

that's such a weird take - I still don't understand that logic

 

[lazyike]

If it were up to me, I would heavily regulate any gun that can accept a magazine.  

Basically all guns except single shot guns, double barrel shotguns and single shot rifles have a magazine or clip. Even the old Winchester 45s

 

[[icon]]

As a gun owner who has done a lot of shooting with 4 shot clips I disagree. It's all I need and a considerable majority 73% want these high capacity clips banned. But your minority opinion is noted.

https://www.google.com/search?q=poll+majority+want+high+capacity+magazine+clips+banned&oq=poll+majority+want+high+capacity+magazine+clips+banned&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160.24500j0j4&client=ms-android-att-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Again, 30 rounds is standard capacity for AR platform so calling it "high-capacity" calls into question your experience with the Platform. 

Also, 4 rounds is sufficient for old dudes who camp at a bench all day shooting at long range, however that is one small subset of uses for the platform.  One simple example is standard 3 Gun competitive shooting matched, (the fastest growing sport shooting competitions) where 4 round magazines are wholly insufficient.