Gun Control Laws - Where are we really? Where to go? (3 Viewers)

[FairWarning]

Not much is getting done.  Mostly because the GOP blocks gun reform, blocks increased expenditures on school safety, and blocks increased expenditures on mental health care.

Here’s the money -https://www.wsj.com/articles/school-districts-are-struggling-to-spend-emergency-covid-19-funds-11652866201

 

[stlrams]

Do you believe that the US has the most gun deaths per capita because they have the most guns per capita, and the easiest access to get guns?  Or do you think there's another reason the US has the most gun deaths out of all Western countries?

Both, we like our guns and it’s easy to obtain one.  You can’t legislate our way out of the problem especially now with ghost guns so why pretend.  

 

[RCon]

Here’s the money -https://www.wsj.com/articles/school-districts-are-struggling-to-spend-emergency-covid-19-funds-11652866201

Paywalled.  I'm curious if that money comes with restrictions on what it can be used for?

 

[RCon]

Both, we like our guns and it’s easy to obtain one.  You can’t legislate our way out of the problem especially now with ghost guns so why pretend.  

Yet every other civilized country has managed to do so.

 

[FairWarning]

Both, we like our guns and it’s easy to obtain one.  You can’t legislate our way out of the problem especially now with ghost guns so why pretend.  

Wouldn’t other countries have the same issues with ghost guns?  Somehow we have to change the gun culture.

 

[FairWarning]

Paywalled.  I'm curious if that money comes with restrictions on what it can be used for?

There is a 2 minute audio version of the article that you can access on there.  ( I hate paywalls also).

 

[stlrams]

Yet every other civilized country has managed to do so.

We are different from other civilized countries.  My daughters boyfriend ordered parts for  ar15 and had it built in 45 minutes in a state where this gun is banned.  I’m not a gun owner and never even fired one but new gun laws will not change anything.....

 

[djmich]

Hooray for the good guys (gals)

Not sure which gun thread had all the discussion about good gun owners stopping bad people.

 

[BladeRunner]

Hooray for the good guys (gals)

Not sure which gun thread had all the discussion about good gun owners stopping bad people.

This will be ignored by the media and by those in here as well.  It doesn't fit the narrative.

 

[KarmaPolice]

It will have minimal to no impact.  Universal background checks, mental health checks?    Aren’t the vast majority of guns used in urban crime illegal guns? 

Probably, but those illegal guns will dry up a little more the harder it is to get them and especially if we get more strict on storage laws.    IMO it will have an impact, but I agree and said in another post that some of these solutions will have the least amount of impact on urban crime because there we are talking about more poverty/education/war on drugs issues.  

 

[The Commish]

Hooray for the good guys (gals)

Not sure which gun thread had all the discussion about good gun owners stopping bad people.

This will be ignored by the media and by those in here as well.  It doesn't fit the narrative.

I mean, it's already been posted at least a half dozen times on the site in the last few days and shown as an example of positive outcome, but sure.

 

[moleculo]

We are different from other civilized countries.  My daughters boyfriend ordered parts for  ar15 and had it built in 45 minutes in a state where this gun is banned.  I’m not a gun owner and never even fired one but new gun laws will not change anything.....

Would he do that if he were facing 20 years in prison for possession?

 

[[icon]]

In Missouri:

1. Gunman A is open carrying his rifle at the store.

2. He is accosted outside by gunman B who robs gunman A of the rifle.

3. Gunman A retrieves another gun from his car and fires at gunman B, who is struck.

4. Gunman A flees.

5. Unknown gunman C arrives, shoots gunman B.

6. Gunman C flees.

Its the gosh darn Wild West…

reason #4957 that open carrying a firearm is ####### dumb 

 

[FairWarning]

Would he do that if he were facing 20 years in prison for possession?

They don’t care

 

[[icon]]

Wouldn’t other countries have the same issues with ghost guns?  Somehow we have to change the gun culture.

"ghost guns" is a lame name made up by the left to make 3D printed firarms sound more scary (like the made up "assault weapon" Term for civilian semi-auto rifles).
 

3D printed firearms are very very rarely used in crimes.... and the bulk of development is done outside the US. The genie is out of the bottle here and you're not going to be able to put that cork back in. As the folks are CTRL+PEW say, you can't stop the signal.

In an act of cruel irony, J Stark The Godfather of 3D firearms always saw his designs as a way for disarmed civilians under oppressive regimes to regain some power against authoritarian governments.... then was murdered by German Police in a raid of his home. 

 

[FairWarning]

There has been a spike in purchases since 2020, pretty interesting article about why - https://cheddar.com/media/gun-sales-2020-up-first-time-owners

 

[[icon]]

This is offensive and wrong.  It's not the left blocking increased expenditures on mental health (or securing schools, for that matter).

Oh so all these gun bills being proposed have equal weight being placed on securing schools and mental health support? 

I must have missed that in reading them.

To be clear I'm not supporting the GOP either... but you are going to need to show your work if you want me to believe the bulk of gun control legislation has sincere intentions outside leveraging tragedy to further gun control agenda.  
 

One only needs to look at how one-dimensional the majority of legislation of post-tragedy is.  

 

[dozer]

reason #4957 that open carrying a firearm is ####### dumb 

“Martin said he was "open carrying" the rifle in a sleeve underneath his shirt”

Totally legal…

 

[[icon]]

There has been a spike in purchases since 2020, pretty interesting article about why - https://cheddar.com/media/gun-sales-2020-up-first-time-owners

100% the riots that occurred around the BLM movement did more to increase gun ownership in American than just about anything else in recent memory. 

 

[[icon]]

“Martin said he was "open carrying" the rifle in a sleeve underneath his shirt”

Totally legal…

Open carrying IS legal in Missouri. 
 

If the weapon wasn't openly visible outside his clothing that's not open carry though.

Unfortunately when it comes to firearms a LOT of very vocal anti-gun people are about as sharp as a tube sock when it comes to guns. 

 

[RCon]

Oh so all these gun bills being proposed have equal weight being placed on securing schools and mental health support? 

I must have missed that in reading them.

To be clear I'm not supporting the GOP either... but you are going to need to show your work if you want me to believe the bulk of gun control legislation has sincere intentions outside leveraging tragedy to further gun control agenda.  
 

One only needs to look at how one-dimensional the majority of legislation of post-tragedy is.  

There have been dozens of standalone school funding and mental health funding bills blocked by the GOP, some federal and some state.

 

[BladeRunner]

“


Martin


said he was "open carrying" the rifle in a sleeve underneath his shirt”

Totally legal…

Your post is an example of what us gun owners point to when we say the "anti-gun" crowd has no idea what they are talking about.  They are woefully uniformed about even the basics of guns.

So when your side tries to pass legislation that is based on uniformed opinions and uninformed representations you're going to get pushback.  As you should.

 

[[icon]]

There have been dozens of standalone school funding and mental health funding bills blocked by the GOP, some federal and some state.

Okay. It feels like you're not picking up that I'm not saying the right is any different. I'll go out of my way to never vote red or blue again. 

Both sides suck on that facet of the issue. But only one side pounces on tragedy to try to shove very one dimensional law through the gates.... it's never a well-rounded bill attacking the whole problem (tangibly hardening schools, addressing mental health).
 

It's transparent, agenda-driven opportunism, unless anyone has some links to balanced legislation that was legitimately pushed by either party? I'll hang up and listen, but I'm not holding my breath waiting to be shown I'm wrong.  

 

[ZADO]

So the pro-gun crowd doesn’t want to help clean up all the illegal guns from criminals?  

I guess everyone can help ,but id love to see if it would succeed , i have serious doubts

 

[Stealthycat]

Go look it up.....I was all over the gun threads three years ago with it and I got some of the best cricket impressions ever seen on this board.  Go read for yourself what the organization you are propping up gave as it's excuse to fight the law YOU said was a good one and proactively stopped more death.  Your dues...your donations.

so you don't have the link ?  I'll search later, surgery day today for me

 

[Stealthycat]

With every hour that passes it is less and less likely that there will be any kind of action on gun reform. All of the restrictions that every poll suggests the vast majority of the public is in favor of: universal background checks, red flag laws, raising the age limit of buying certain or all guns to 21- none of that is going to happen. 

Republicans have expertly honed their response to these sorts of horrific incidents over the years: offer lip service to compromise, talk about mental health and increasing security, delay delay delay and then vote against everything. It works every time. It will continue to work until some of these people lose an election. 

You are right, Democrats have honed their responses and try and exploit people's feelings and capitalize on tragedy - its pathetic to try and do that, its awful and shameful IMO

 

[Stealthycat]

I'm well aware that banning sale doesn't make them magically go away.  That's why I want a licensing requirement for possession, and STRICT consequences for law breakers.

so push for actions that have proven not to work ?

where is the sense in that ?

 

[Stealthycat]

Interesting you say this as this article just came out today….

https://www.yahoo.com/news/california-americas-toughest-gun-laws-181226078.html

From the article…

“California’s rate of firearm mortality is among the nation’s lowest, with 8.5 gun deaths per 100,000 people in 2020, compared with 13.7 per 100,000 nationally and 14.2 per 100,000 in Texas, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has reported. And Californians are about 25% less likely to die in mass shootings, compared with residents of other states, according to a recent Public Policy Institute of California analysis.”

a lot of factors play into that - having a huge population helps lower statistics like that

the fact remains, mag ban's didn't reduce murders/mass murders nor did many other gun laws passed

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Okay. It feels like you're not picking up that I'm not saying the right is any different. I'll go out of my way to never vote red or blue again. 

Both sides suck on that facet of the issue. But only one side pounces on tragedy to try to shove very one dimensional law through the gates.... it's never a well-rounded bill attacking the whole problem (tangibly hardening schools, addressing mental health).
 

It's transparent, agenda-driven opportunism, unless anyone has some links to balanced legislation that was legitimately pushed by either party? I'll hang up and listen, but I'm not holding my breath waiting to be shown I'm wrong.  

Dems introduce legislation that would boost mental health care all the time. You're only looking at the times they do it in response to a shooting.  But the thing is, most people don't see "mental health" as part of the "mass shooting" problem, because nobody has ever really connected the two in terms of specific measures. Most people see mental health as a smaller part of health care.  

Obamacare increases access to mental health care. Every GOP member voted against it. 

The Medicaid expansion would also increase access mental health care access- in fact Medicaid is the biggest payer of mental health costs in the United States. Not only did the GOP oppose Medicaid expansion at the federal level, but a number of GOP governors turned it down despite the fact that it was basically free for them simply because it was linked to Obama. A number of them, including Texas, STILL haven't accepted it. 

Go to congress.gov and search for mental health bills in the House. You'll find a huge pile of Dem initiatives like this one that never get off the ground because they can't get any bipartisan support. Go back to the previous Congress, or try the Senate instead of the House?  More of the same.

You wanna pretend that the barriers to improved mental health care are a bipartisan issue, that's your business, but it very clearly is not. If you actually want to see change on this issue I encourage you to vote accordingly.

 

[Stealthycat]

At least two guys already admitted to donating more money to these gun orgs. Literally less than a week after these murders.

one was me - I re-joined the NRA and first time Gun Owners of America member

It was made very clear early on in this thread there will be no compromise, nothing will be given from anti-gun side, instead they will take what they want, ban what they want, they don't need partisan support or my support.

I actually considered supporting some changes until I was told that. 

 

[timschochet]

Dems introduce legislation that would boost mental health care all the time. You're only looking at the times they do it in response to a shooting.  But the thing is, most people don't see "mental health" as part of the "mass shooting" problem, because nobody has ever really connected the two in terms of specific measures. Most people see mental health as a smaller part of health care.  

Obamacare increases access to mental health care. Every GOP member voted against it. 

The Medicaid expansion would also increase access mental health care access- in fact Medicaid is the biggest payer of mental health costs in the United States. Not only did the GOP oppose Medicaid expansion at the federal level, but a number of GOP governors turned it down despite the fact that it was basically free for them simply because it was linked to Obama. A number of them, including Texas, STILL haven't accepted it. 

Go to congress.gov and search for mental health bills in the House. You'll find a huge pile of Dem initiatives like this one that never get off the ground because they can't get any bipartisan support. Go back to the previous Congress, or try the Senate instead of the House?  More of the same.

You wanna pretend that the barriers to improved mental health care are a bipartisan issue, that's your business, but it very clearly is not. If you actually want to see change on this issue I encourage you to vote accordingly.

Excellent post. 

 

[Amused to Death]

Wouldn’t other countries have the same issues with ghost guns?  Somehow we have to change the gun culture.

This is why we have the problems we do. The gun culture. Its why we are so reluctant to make meaningful changes and its why we so casually misuse them. We're obsessed with them.

 

[Westerberg]

Dems introduce legislation that would boost mental health care all the time. You're only looking at the times they do it in response to a shooting.  But the thing is, most people don't see "mental health" as part of the "mass shooting" problem, because nobody has ever really connected the two in terms of specific measures. Most people see mental health as a smaller part of health care.  

Obamacare increases access to mental health care. Every GOP member voted against it. 

The Medicaid expansion would also increase access mental health care access- in fact Medicaid is the biggest payer of mental health costs in the United States. Not only did the GOP oppose Medicaid expansion at the federal level, but a number of GOP governors turned it down despite the fact that it was basically free for them simply because it was linked to Obama. A number of them, including Texas, STILL haven't accepted it. 

Go to congress.gov and search for mental health bills in the House. You'll find a huge pile of Dem initiatives like this one that never get off the ground because they can't get any bipartisan support. Go back to the previous Congress, or try the Senate instead of the House?  More of the same.

You wanna pretend that the barriers to improved mental health care are a bipartisan issue, that's your business, but it very clearly is not. If you actually want to see change on this issue I encourage you to vote accordingly.

Was going to type up something similar. You said it better than I could’ve.

 

[The Commish]

a lot of factors play into that - having a huge population helps lower statistics like that

the fact remains, mag ban's didn't reduce murders/mass murders nor did many other gun laws passed

Do you understand why they do the "per 100,000 people" approach?

 

[dickey moe]

100% the riots that occurred around the BLM movement did more to increase gun ownership in American than just about anything else in recent memory. 

The question is: does the left understand that? 

 

[moleculo]

so push for actions that have proven not to work ?

where is the sense in that ?

expand please.  how has it proven to not work?

 

[Stealthycat]

One side says it's a mental health issue another says it's guns. Kimmel said it best this last week, "it can be both" 

If it is a mental health issue than we need background checks and red flag laws to keep guns out of the mentally unstable and red flag laws to take them away from the mentally unstable. 

well to me, its 100% mental ... its not normal to want to kill a lot of people, especially children

these people doing these things - they have to be removed from society. Asking them to use a different kind of weapon will result in them using a different kind of weapon. 

we DO have background checks ... and it says right there on the forms if you have mental health issues. The Fed Govt runs that background checking - they're the ones failing in it IMO. We also have red flagging and people reporting and it works, many examples of it working where people are pro-active. 

if you are suggesting laws on mental health = locking up, I'll agree with you and red flag laws that target non-gun owners, lets do it.  But you can't just target gun owners - that's discrimination and it also totally ignores the problem. 

 

[Stealthycat]

Was going to type up something similar. You said it better than I could’ve.

do you think these mass shooters like Carlos and Cruz and others want mental health and would voluntarily go and get help? 

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

It's a bipartisan problem

 

[timschochet]

The question is: does the left understand that? 

Pretty sure they do. How does it change the discussion? 

The Floyd riots made people paranoid. I know folks in Huntington Beach who kept guns right by their door became they thought rioters might come to their suburban neighborhood. It was incredibly silly but that’s how people reacted. 

As always with riots: a tiny number of minorities and thugs burn #### down, mostly in cities, almost 100% retail buildings that service them. Then a large number of middle class white people freak out and overreact. 

 

[timschochet]

And let’s not forget the catalyst for all the gun buying in 2020: it wasn’t the riots by themselves; it was Fox News and conservative talk radio, deliberately spreading fear, repeating the lie that Black Lives Matter was violent, repeating the lie that ANTIFA was a large, well organized group of domestic terrorists, and telling their viewers and listeners “they’re coming for you!” 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

It's a bipartisan problem

I saw Joe Manchin at the end, so it actually is bipartisan, sort of.

 

[RCon]

Okay. It feels like you're not picking up that I'm not saying the right is any different. I'll go out of my way to never vote red or blue again. 

Both sides suck on that facet of the issue. But only one side pounces on tragedy to try to shove very one dimensional law through the gates.... it's never a well-rounded bill attacking the whole problem (tangibly hardening schools, addressing mental health).
 

It's transparent, agenda-driven opportunism, unless anyone has some links to balanced legislation that was legitimately pushed by either party? I'll hang up and listen, but I'm not holding my breath waiting to be shown I'm wrong.  

HR-8?

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

I saw Joe Manchin at the end, so it actually is bipartisan, sort of.

He was the inspiration for my choice to call it "bipartisan"! 

At this point I think it's safe to assume that anyone complaining about legislative inaction from the GOP is also complaining about Manchin, Sinema and anyone other Dems still clinging to the filibuster. Gotta get to 53-54 at some point (I'm assuming Coons and probably some other rando are letting those two take the heat). 

 

[ZADO]

Travo

@OldTravo

Replying to

@H3rry_8

@BroganMcneilly

and

@bisping

As someone from Australia, I can assure you the situation is much different. When restriction were placed of guns here very few people had them anyway. Mostly just hunters. There’s 400 million guns in America that won’t be given up willingly.

5:31 AM · Jun 1

 

[IvanKaramazov]

And let’s not forget the catalyst for all the gun buying in 2020: it wasn’t the riots by themselves; it was Fox News and conservative talk radio, deliberately spreading fear, repeating the lie that Black Lives Matter was violent, repeating the lie that ANTIFA was a large, well organized group of domestic terrorists, and telling their viewers and listeners “they’re coming for you!” 

No, it was definitely the riots.  I don't watch Fox News or listen to talk radio, and I don't have strongly feelings about BLM one way or the other.  But the riots and our collective response to them 100% got my attention.  

 

[parrot]

Open carrying IS legal in Missouri. 
 

If the weapon wasn't openly visible outside his clothing that's not open carry though.

Unfortunately when it comes to firearms a LOT of very vocal anti-gun people are about as sharp as a tube sock when it comes to guns. 

Of course permit-less concealed carry is ALSO legal in Missouri, so while it's possible this rifle wasn't at all visible in a sleeve under his shirt, does it really matter in terms of legality?  Makes you wonder too, why did the second guy demand the rifle if it wasn't visible?

Also, what indication is there that the Police Major who originally described it as an "open carrying" situation is anti-gun?

 

[[icon]]

HR-8?

Which parts of HR-8 make a balanced attempt at hardening schools as well as providing avenues to identify potential shooters and improve mental health care? 

I mnay be looking at the wrong bill? 

Not being a smartass.. I may be missing something or looking at the wrong thing. 

 

[(HULK)]

No, it was definitely the riots.  I don't watch Fox News or listen to talk radio, and I don't have strongly feelings about BLM one way or the other.  But the riots and our collective response to them 100% got my attention.  

I mean, it's possible (and likely IMO) that both the riots and the coverage of them by certain media outlets both contributed to the increase in firearm sales. Which was more impactful? Dunno. Does it matter? Not really.

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Which parts of HR-8 make a balanced attempt at hardening schools as well as providing avenues to identify potential shooters and improve mental health care? 

I mnay be looking at the wrong bill? 

Not being a smartass.. I may be missing something or looking at the wrong thing. 

I'm not being a smartass either, but why is "a balanced attempt at hardening schools" a mandatory condition for you? 

Personally I don't think increased mental health access or "hardening schools" will make any difference at all, but if you do, why not support legislation that at least accomplishes one of them?