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Half of America Shut off from Economic Growth (1 Viewer)

parasaurolophus said:
There really is a ton of truth here. There is almost no practical financial learning in high school. People have zero concept of tax brackets, budgets, saving, etc. 

This is an area that needs to be improved and would make a huge difference. 
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This would be an important step.

Another could be increased focus on trade schools, if your choices stand between unemployed, miner or e.g. carpenter, lets make sure the carpenters are not underrepresented

 
humpback said:
It's more than their parents did at the same age.
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That's not what the quoted text stated, but ok.

Arsenal of Doom said:
The concern is that we are becoming a winner takes all economy, particularly as automation pushes humans into even more specialized work roles with more competition for fewer jobs. 
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We really aren't "winner take all" unless "winner" includes everyone who had the benefit of being born in the US. Even the most poor here have it better than many countries. 

 
msommer said:
This would be an important step.

Another could be increased focus on trade schools, if your choices stand between unemployed, miner or e.g. carpenter, lets make sure the carpenters are not underrepresented
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Having recently looked into different careers, it surprised me how much decent welders can make.  That's what I might encourage my oldest, who has no desire for higher education but is a good worker, to do. 

 
FUBAR said:
Having recently looked into different careers, it surprised me how much decent welders can make.  That's what I might encourage my oldest, who has no desire for higher education but is a good worker, to do. 
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I honestly think HS should start funneling those with little interest in books but other talents into the trades

 
msommer said:
I honestly think HS should start funneling those with little interest in books but other talents into the trades
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There are welding courses (for example) at community colleges.  Although I understand where you're coming from, I also have some reluctance thinking kids should be funneled at 14 or 15.  Or, at least, funneling them more than we already do with shop classes, AP classes, etc.

 
Juxtatarot said:
There are welding courses (for example) at community colleges.  Although I understand where you're coming from, I also have some reluctance thinking kids should be funneled at 14 or 15.  Or, at least, funneling them more than we already do with shop classes, AP classes, etc.
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"Made aware of possible alternatives that will increase their future livelyhoods in a targeted way" work better for you?

 
Juxtatarot said:
There are welding courses (for example) at community colleges.  Although I understand where you're coming from, I also have some reluctance thinking kids should be funneled at 14 or 15.  Or, at least, funneling them more than we already do with shop classes, AP classes, etc.
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Why does it have to be considered funneling? I think it is pretty silly that most people read Romeo and Juliet in high school, yet never learn how to put together a piece of furniture, change windshield wiper blades, or learn where their money goes. The amount of time I remember spending in high school on some pretty useless things was nutso.

 
Otis said:
All this.  And by the way, in my experience, it's not "work your ### off till the finish line" till you make it, and then you just kick back and watch the money roll in for the rest of your career.  For me it's work your ### off for a long time, and then once you "make it", continue working your ### off -- perhaps even harder than before -- if you want ot keep "making it."  It's not like you then finally just get to hang out and reap all the rewards from a lounge chair.  

And that's true for me and all the guys in my firm who are successful.  There are lots of guys in a law firm who did pretty well, ended up working in a law firm making decent money, but who never elevate to the next level, because they aren't tireless about it.  Maybe they make really nice money as associates but they'll never advance to partnership; maybe they advance to partnership but never do as well as the top partners; etc.  I've seen a direct correlation between the work and the results.  Some guys never "turn off" -- they are 24/7; others enjoy their evenings and weekends more.  Some folks are out the door at 5 or 6 and pretty much done for the night; others are there late, or are out the door at 5 or 6 but, after putting their kids to bed, are back online working for their "evening session."  Some guys are willing to jump on a plane and do the painful client development junkets and be away from their families; others don't really bother to make that effort.  

Again, not saying any of these choics are "better."  They can be grueling choices and come at a high price in a personal and family life, in your health, etc.  But those are the choices some people are just willing or programmed to make.  And they directly impact financial gains. And that's just in this one little setting. 
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Is it worth it? All that extra time, effort, stress not to mention the commuting and time away from family? As an intelligent guy, you could have "half-assed" it, made a very solid living with a stress free 9-5 and had breakfast and supper with your family everyday.

 
Cliff Clavin said:
Is it worth it? All that extra time, effort, stress not to mention the commuting and time away from family? As an intelligent guy, you could have "half-assed" it, made a very solid living with a stress free 9-5 and had breakfast and supper with your family everyday.
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Is this a serious reply? I am not sure if you are making fun of the people that believe everybody should be able to count on family time, 9-5 work schedule, and an easy life, or if you are one of those people.

 
msommer said:
"Made aware of possible alternatives that will increase their future livelyhoods in a targeted way" work better for you?
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I didn't mean to attack your position or choice of words.  I find this topic interesting.  I know many see a lack of focus on the trades as a failing of our secondary education system.  I'm currently on the other side of this issue but I could see myself being persuaded by arguments on the other side.  

I think all of us agree that a high school education is not sufficient to start any meaningful career.  However, I don't think this is a problem with high schools.  Isn't there still exposure to the trades in high school?  Shop classes and the like?  There was for me. My point though is high school isn't the time to start training for a particular profession.  That should be done after high school when someone is 18-21 and likely still living at "home".   If there isn't access to training for kids that age these days, then that should be the focus.  But I think there is.

parasaurolophus said:
Why does it have to be considered funneling? I think it is pretty silly that most people read Romeo and Juliet in high school, yet never learn how to put together a piece of furniture, change windshield wiper blades, or learn where their money goes. The amount of time I remember spending in high school on some pretty useless things was nutso.
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There is so much for a young person to learn about real life that we can't expect high school to teach it all.  They will still need to learn many things from their parents or on their own the hard way.  I guess I don't have a problem with the current focus on language/literature, history, math and science.  

 
Soonerman said:
So is socialism, only there are a lot fewer of them.  Hell, Castro was apparently a billionaire in a wretchedly poor country.  The nomenklatura in the old USSR all had their beach front dachas while the mass of people lined up for toilet paper.
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And here we are again with the "if you have issues with capitalism then you must prefer socialism" shtick.

 
FUBAR said:
Seems to me we should reward what we want to encourage.  There are things we can and should fix, but if your biggest complaint boils down to our rewarding people who achieve more, we're doing alright. 
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I'm all for rewarding those who go above and beyond. But I'm not for a system where in order for some to succeed, others have to fail. 

When I first heard of the Basic Income Guarantee, I was still in my die hard capitalist thinking days, and of course I thought that it was a bunch of hogwash that the lazy people wanted. Now I see it as a solution to the problems capitalism naturally creates. The Basic Income Guarantee doesn't stop anyone from being rewarded for hard work, great talent, great skills, etc, etc... It does however solve the issue that there is a huge chunk of people who will never benefit from that freedom. It's not that their lazy. It's that no matter how hard they work, the best they have to offer doesn't differentiate them from most other people. It's the exceptional people who benefit from that freedom. The rest shouldn't have to work 60 hours a week to put food in front of their kids and clothes on their backs.

 
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parasaurolophus said:
Is this a serious reply? I am not sure if you are making fun of the people that believe everybody should be able to count on family time, 9-5 work schedule, and an easy life, or if you are one of those people.
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:confused:

That was directly to Otis, not "everybody". I know not "everybody" can do it for a variety of reasons but Otis surely could have if he made that choice.

 
Politician Spock said:
And here we are again with the "if you have issues with capitalism then you must prefer socialism" shtick.
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The quote you responded to that led to my response brought up the "s" word.  And it's a pretty tortured reading of what I said to turn it into "you must prefer socialism".

 
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Work with some very wealthy surgeons who make 1.5 to 2 million a year.  One day one of the partners in the surgical group told everyone he is going part time.  The partners don't know what to think at first but are ok with the decision.   It is a "eat what you kill" business so with the decreased amount of money out of pocket, and being able to spend time with his family every morning getting the kids to school before work, and spending time with his family in the evening eating supper and helping put the kids to bed he is a lot happier and making roughly 70% of what he was beating his head against a wall every day.  I think that each person has to find that healthy balance between work and family.  Who the #### cares how much money you make if you never get to spend time with family.  I was told by a retiring surgeon two things that have stuck with me since I started working, first you want to spend as much time with the people you gave vows to, and help conceive, your kids are only young for a very little while and there will come a time when your kids don't want to spend time with the parents.  Second, was that the more time spent away from the family increases your chances of infidelity, and the ####### you get will never be the ####### you are going to get.  GL 

 
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Juxtatarot said:
I didn't mean to attack your position or choice of words.  I find this topic interesting.  I know many see a lack of focus on the trades as a failing of our secondary education system.  I'm currently on the other side of this issue but I could see myself being persuaded by arguments on the other side.  

I think all of us agree that a high school education is not sufficient to start any meaningful career.  However, I don't think this is a problem with high schools.  Isn't there still exposure to the trades in high school?  Shop classes and the like?  There was for me. My point though is high school isn't the time to start training for a particular profession.  That should be done after high school when someone is 18-21 and likely still living at "home".   If there isn't access to training for kids that age these days, then that should be the focus.  But I think there is.
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IMHO the further along in HS the more empahsis there should be on the student finding what they enjoy and what they are good at. And they should learn what positive options that bring. In most industrialized societies too many people go to college/university, they get degrees that are unnecessary for the tasks they will be asked to perform at their future work places (if they get a job that is).

Now it could be that HS does this already to some extent, but it would seem that they don't do it well enough to ensure that people with no inclination for book learning don't predominately end in no future jobs 

 
Politician Spock said:
I'm all for rewarding those who go above and beyond. But I'm not for a system where in order for some to succeed, others have to fail. 

When I first heard of the Basic Income Guarantee, I was still in my die hard capitalist thinking days, and of course I thought that it was a bunch of hogwash that the lazy people wanted. Now I see it as a solution to the problems capitalism naturally creates. The Basic Income Guarantee doesn't stop anyone from being rewarded for hard work, great talent, great skills, etc, etc... It does however solve the issue that there is a huge chunk of people who will never benefit from that freedom. It's not that their lazy. It's that no matter how hard they work, the best they have to offer doesn't differentiate them from most other people. It's the exceptional people who benefit from that freedom. The rest shouldn't have to work 60 hours a week to put food in front of their kids and clothes on their backs.
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I haven't looked into it enough but why is the basic income guarantee better than welfare? 

 
mr roboto said:
There's a big thread on this that's incredibly helpful. Really would encourage reading it. 
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Seems like a lot of work.  maybe someone should break it down and make it easier for those of us unwilling or unable to work hard enough to do things for ourselves. ;)

 
SHIZNITTTT said:
Work with some very wealthy surgeons who make 1.5 to 2 million a year.  One day one of the partners in the surgical group told everyone he is going part time.  The partners don't know what to think at first but are ok with the decision.   It is a "eat what you kill" business so with the decreased amount of money out of pocket, and being able to spend time with his family every morning getting the kids to school before work, and spending time with his family in the evening eating supper and helping put the kids to bed he is a lot happier and making roughly 70% of what he was beating his head against a wall every day.  I think that each person has to find that healthy balance between work and family.  Who the #### cares how much money you make if you never get to spend time with family.  I was told by a retiring surgeon two things that have stuck with me since I started working, first you want to spend as much time with the people you gave vows to, and help conceive, your kids are only young for a very little while and there will come a time when your kids don't want to spend time with the parents.  Second, was that the more time spent away from the family increases your chances of infidelity, and the ####### you get will never be the ####### you are going to get.  GL 
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An American investment banker was taking a much-needed vacation in a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. The boat had several large, fresh fish in it.

The investment banker was impressed by the quality of the fish and asked the Mexican how long it took to catch them.

The Mexican replied, “Only a little while.”

The banker then asked why he didn’t stay out longer and catch more fish?

The Mexican fisherman replied he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs.

The American then asked “But what do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican fisherman replied, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos: I have a full and busy life, señor.”

The investment banker scoffed, “I am an Ivy League MBA, and I could help you. You could spend more time fishing and with the proceeds buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats until eventually you would have a whole fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to the middleman you could sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You could control the product, processing and distribution.”

Then he added, “Of course, you would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City where you would run your growing enterprise.”

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But señor, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15-20 years.”

“But what then?” asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich. You could make millions.”

“Millions, señor? Then what?”

To which the investment banker replied, “Then you would retire. You could move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.







 
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fatguyinalittlecoat said:
I think a lot of the debate upthread about who is to blame for the plight of the poor is completely unrelated to factual disputes.

For whatever reason, I'm pretty sympathetic to the poor, even those that are lazy or made poor decisions or even those that abuse government services.  I can see myself in those people.  I'm lazy, I make bad decisions.  If I had been born into different circumstances, I can imagine living that way.

For some folks in this thread, you really seem to feel hostility on a gut level against people that you feel are mooching off the system.  I just don't really have that instinct in me.  I really can't explain why, but stories about people using food stamps to buy $41 birthday cakes don't upset me.

By contrast, I tend to have really negative feelings towards rich people that screw over others just to make themselves even richer.  Even if they're doing it legally.  It's just a gut level thing.  The article in today's New York Times about the private equity guys that made a ton of money by rescuing Hostess cupcakes from bankruptcy bothers me.   I can't see myself in those people.  But I know a lot of people that see absolutely nothing wrong with their conduct.  Business is business and it's a game just to make the most money you can even if others are hurt.  

I don't have a good explanation for why we have different gut level responses to this stuff.
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:goodposting: Could not have said it better myself.

 
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