Happy Columbus Day (1 Viewer)

[SaintsInDome2006]

Always seemed like a northeastern thing. It's never been a holiday down here in New Orleans. We do have St. Joseph's day which is celebrated here alongside St. Patrick's, including a merged parade or two.

Historically Colombo dragged Europe out of the Dark Ages and into an understanding of the world, and the Church was not necessarily happy about it at all. Funny how CC used to be a liberal hero and now maybe not so much.

I've always wanted a General Sherman day. How would that play down south?

Come on down and find out. I suggest just outside of Atlanta for the announcement. Oh and don't mind the guns open carry and all that.

Of course , if the South objects to General Sherman Day, we could always have another holiday that celebrates a Confederate General. How does Longstreet Day sound?

Got to be Lee

You guys may not know this (or maybe you do) but Memorial Day used to be Confederate Decoration Day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Memorial_Day

I will add for Tim that Sherman is not the bogeyman here that he is in Georgia. We do have a Lee Statue (Lee Circle) but there has never been a call to take it down for any quarter here that I'm aware of, maybe that's because Lee had a very good post, in, and pre war rep.

 

[comfortably numb]

Don't celebrate the day if you feel strongly about it?

I'm putting my mail in the mail boxes today.

:fightthepower:

 

[Don Quixote]

Of course , if the South objects to General Sherman Day, we could always have another holiday that celebrates a Confederate General. How does Longstreet Day sound?

Got to be Lee

We have a Lee-Jackson Day in Virginia. It was merged with MLK Day for a bit, but some people got offended by that.

 

[SacramentoBob]

I just discovered my neighbor's bank account.

 

[Zow]

I just discovered my neighbor's bank account.

I just discovered that unconscious girl in the corner.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The best summary comes from the Oatmeal

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

Columbus Day was established in the 1930s by a male-only Catholic organization known as the Knights of Columbus. They wanted a male, Catholic role model their kids could look up to, so they pressured Roosevelt into making it a national holiday.

FDR was not pressured into doing anything by anyone ever, if he was after appealing to Catholic and Italian voters, and immigrants, by declaring this holiday so be it, but that was all FDR. Also as stated there was a time when CC was a liberal icon because he was a symbol of the ingenuity and accomplishment of the non-Anglo immigrant. That image and concept have changed because awareness of what he did after the the discovery has changed.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Of course , if the South objects to General Sherman Day, we could always have another holiday that celebrates a Confederate General. How does Longstreet Day sound?

Got to be Lee

We have a Lee-Jackson Day in Virginia. It was merged with MLK Day for a bit, but some people got offended by that.

In New Orleans, Jefferson Davis Parkway intersects with MLK Boulevard. I've always liked that, drive by it every day. It also happens to be an intersection of largely black and white neighborhoods.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

The best summary comes from the Oatmeal

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

Columbus Day was established in the 1930s by a male-only Catholic organization known as the Knights of Columbus. They wanted a male, Catholic role model their kids could look up to, so they pressured Roosevelt into making it a national holiday.

Also as stated there was a time when CC was a liberal icon because he was a symbol of the ingenuity and accomplishment of the non-Anglo immigrant. That image and concept have changed because awareness of what he did after the the discovery has changed.

You've said this twice now. Where are you getting this from? When was this time? I'm genuinely curious, can you point me to something that illustrates this?

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

YOU'RE THE MAN, DODDS!

(Don't tell Joe I said that)

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The best summary comes from the Oatmeal

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

Columbus Day was established in the 1930s by a male-only Catholic organization known as the Knights of Columbus. They wanted a male, Catholic role model their kids could look up to, so they pressured Roosevelt into making it a national holiday.

Also as stated there was a time when CC was a liberal icon because he was a symbol of the ingenuity and accomplishment of the non-Anglo immigrant. That image and concept have changed because awareness of what he did after the the discovery has changed.

You've said this twice now. Where are you getting this from? When was this time? I'm genuinely curious, can you point me to something that illustrates this?

Sure, here's FDR, 10/12/40:

The voyage of Christopher Columbus and his diminutive fleet toward the unknown west was not only a prelude to a new historical era. For the brave navigator it was the culmination of years of bold speculation, careful preparation, and struggle against opponents who had belittled his great plan and thwarted its execution.

Expounding the strange doctrine that beyond the ocean stood solid, habitable earth, Columbus had first to make his views plausible to his doubting patrons and then to overcome the seemingly endless array of obstacles with which men of little minds barred the way to the fitting out of a fleet. Even when the three small ships were well away on their epoch-making course the crews mutinied and demanded that he turn back. Columbus, however, held to his course and on the morning of October 12, 1492, the welcome land was sighted.

The courage and the faith and the vision of the Genoese navigator glorify and enrich the drama of the early movement of European people to America. Columbus and his fellow voyagers were the harbingers of later mighty movements of people from Spain, from Columbus's native Italy and from every country in Europe. And out of the fusion of all these national strains was created the America to which the Old World contributed so magnificently.

This year when we contemplate the estate to which the world has been brought by destructive forces, with lawlessness and wanton power ravaging an older civilization, and with our own republic girding itself for the defense of its institutions, we can revitalize our faith and renew our courage by a recollection of the triumph of Columbus after a period of grievous trial.

The promise which Columbus's discovery gave to the world, of a new beginning in the march of human progress, has been in process of fulfillment for four centuries. Our task is now to make strong our conviction that in spite of setbacks that process will go on toward fulfillment.

He was Italian, representing the mass movement of immigrants to America, "march of human progress", etc., it's all there.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I will add that when it was first created Columbus Day was kind of like an MLK Day for Catholics. Catholics were a steady, core Democratic voter group, and Columbus was as good a symbol of pride as could be found. People may forget that before there was JFK there was Al Smith, the first Catholic presidential candidate (1928) and he was a solid D. .

 

[Sinn Fein]

indigineous peoples day here

Seattle doesnt even have Columbus Day yet somehow, this year, they changed it to Indigenous Peoples Day.

Personally I support calling it Discoverers Day

I'm more down with the Indigenous People Day. Explorers have gotten their reward let's let the people they killed, raped and enslaved have a bone.

I would be onboard with Native American Day.

Well they were Asian immigrants, no? I did not think there were any indigenous people that we knew of that inhabited the Americas without migrating from Asia.

 

[Slapdash]

Always seemed like a northeastern thing. It's never been a holiday down here in New Orleans. We do have St. Joseph's day which is celebrated here alongside St. Patrick's, including a merged parade or two.

Historically Colombo dragged Europe out of the Dark Ages and into an understanding of the world, and the Church was not necessarily happy about it at all. Funny how CC used to be a liberal hero and now maybe not so much.

I've always wanted a General Sherman day. How would that play down south?

May as well balance it out with John Wilkes Booth Day.

 

[timschochet]

We also have Andrew Jackson on our $20 bill, and if Columbus was the Hitler of the native Americans, Jackson was the Himmler. And we honor Woodrow Wilson, as terrible a racist as any post Civil War American in history.

 

[timschochet]

Saints, there is nothing at all "liberal" in that speech by FDR you quoted . Though the father of the New Deal, FDR was in many ways conservative. His social conservatism was such that if he lived today he might identify himself as a Republican. You're confusing liberal with Democrat here.

 

[MC Gas Money]

I just discovered my neighbor's bank account.

I just discovered that unconscious girl in the corner.

If she doesnt verbally object it isnt rape.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

The best summary comes from the Oatmeal

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

Columbus Day was established in the 1930s by a male-only Catholic organization known as the Knights of Columbus. They wanted a male, Catholic role model their kids could look up to, so they pressured Roosevelt into making it a national holiday.

Also as stated there was a time when CC was a liberal icon because he was a symbol of the ingenuity and accomplishment of the non-Anglo immigrant. That image and concept have changed because awareness of what he did after the the discovery has changed.

You've said this twice now. Where are you getting this from? When was this time? I'm genuinely curious, can you point me to something that illustrates this?

Sure, here's FDR, 10/12/40:

The voyage of Christopher Columbus and his diminutive fleet toward the unknown west was not only a prelude to a new historical era. For the brave navigator it was the culmination of years of bold speculation, careful preparation, and struggle against opponents who had belittled his great plan and thwarted its execution.

Expounding the strange doctrine that beyond the ocean stood solid, habitable earth, Columbus had first to make his views plausible to his doubting patrons and then to overcome the seemingly endless array of obstacles with which men of little minds barred the way to the fitting out of a fleet. Even when the three small ships were well away on their epoch-making course the crews mutinied and demanded that he turn back. Columbus, however, held to his course and on the morning of October 12, 1492, the welcome land was sighted.

The courage and the faith and the vision of the Genoese navigator glorify and enrich the drama of the early movement of European people to America. Columbus and his fellow voyagers were the harbingers of later mighty movements of people from Spain, from Columbus's native Italy and from every country in Europe. And out of the fusion of all these national strains was created the America to which the Old World contributed so magnificently.

This year when we contemplate the estate to which the world has been brought by destructive forces, with lawlessness and wanton power ravaging an older civilization, and with our own republic girding itself for the defense of its institutions, we can revitalize our faith and renew our courage by a recollection of the triumph of Columbus after a period of grievous trial.

The promise which Columbus's discovery gave to the world, of a new beginning in the march of human progress, has been in process of fulfillment for four centuries. Our task is now to make strong our conviction that in spite of setbacks that process will go on toward fulfillment.

He was Italian, representing the mass movement of immigrants to America, "march of human progress", etc., it's all there.

This supports the idea that "there was a time when CC was a liberal icon"? That's a massive stretch.

You initially steered me to that Oatmeal article-your post in my email-and I assume you then edited this to what it is now? There's nothing in that Oatmeal article that suggests CC was ever a "liberal icon" either. It seems as if this is your particular spin . I was just curious if I was always unaware that there was some other commentary or consensus that CC had once been regarded in this way.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

Saints, there is nothing at all "liberal" in that speech by FDR you quoted . Though the father of the New Deal, FDR was in many ways conservative. His social conservatism was such that if he lived today he might identify himself as a Republican. You're confusing liberal with Democrat here.

Not only that, a commerative speech by a liberal about CC does not therefore mean that CC is a "liberal icon". That's ridiculous. Is there some,other consensus somewhere that this is so? It makes no intuitive sense, CC has always been much more emblematic of a conservative worldview than a liberal one-the inaccuracies in his legacy as taught in our country encourage nationalism and ethnocentrism which are hardly liberal values.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The best summary comes from the Oatmeal

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

Columbus Day was established in the 1930s by a male-only Catholic organization known as the Knights of Columbus. They wanted a male, Catholic role model their kids could look up to, so they pressured Roosevelt into making it a national holiday.

Also as stated there was a time when CC was a liberal icon because he was a symbol of the ingenuity and accomplishment of the non-Anglo immigrant. That image and concept have changed because awareness of what he did after the the discovery has changed.

You've said this twice now. Where are you getting this from? When was this time? I'm genuinely curious, can you point me to something that illustrates this?

Sure, here's FDR, 10/12/40:

The voyage of Christopher Columbus and his diminutive fleet toward the unknown west was not only a prelude to a new historical era. For the brave navigator it was the culmination of years of bold speculation, careful preparation, and struggle against opponents who had belittled his great plan and thwarted its execution.

Expounding the strange doctrine that beyond the ocean stood solid, habitable earth, Columbus had first to make his views plausible to his doubting patrons and then to overcome the seemingly endless array of obstacles with which men of little minds barred the way to the fitting out of a fleet. Even when the three small ships were well away on their epoch-making course the crews mutinied and demanded that he turn back. Columbus, however, held to his course and on the morning of October 12, 1492, the welcome land was sighted.

The courage and the faith and the vision of the Genoese navigator glorify and enrich the drama of the early movement of European people to America. Columbus and his fellow voyagers were the harbingers of later mighty movements of people from Spain, from Columbus's native Italy and from every country in Europe. And out of the fusion of all these national strains was created the America to which the Old World contributed so magnificently.

This year when we contemplate the estate to which the world has been brought by destructive forces, with lawlessness and wanton power ravaging an older civilization, and with our own republic girding itself for the defense of its institutions, we can revitalize our faith and renew our courage by a recollection of the triumph of Columbus after a period of grievous trial.

The promise which Columbus's discovery gave to the world, of a new beginning in the march of human progress, has been in process of fulfillment for four centuries. Our task is now to make strong our conviction that in spite of setbacks that process will go on toward fulfillment.

He was Italian, representing the mass movement of immigrants to America, "march of human progress", etc., it's all there.

This supports the idea that "there was a time when CC was a liberal icon"? That's a massive stretch.

You initially steered me to that Oatmeal article-your post in my email-and I assume you then edited this to what it is now? There's nothing in that Oatmeal article that suggests CC was ever a "liberal icon" either. It seems as if this is your particular spin . I was just curious if I was always unaware that there was some other commentary or consensus that CC had once been regarded in this way.

Yes, it does. That's FDR there, himself the king of liberal icons. I didn't quote the part about him being a liberal icon because it wasn't a quote or from the article, that was my comment. And he most definitely was such. The GOP and conservative Demos) back then was largely anglo and non-swarthy, the immigrant and Catholic constituencies and interests were most definitely liberal causes and platforms. Again, see Al Smith for part of the transformation of the Democratic Party on that score.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Saints, there is nothing at all "liberal" in that speech by FDR you quoted . Though the father of the New Deal, FDR was in many ways conservative. His social conservatism was such that if he lived today he might identify himself as a Republican. You're confusing liberal with Democrat here.

Get out of here, he was clearly speaking to the immigrant and Catholic communities there, core liberal and Democratic constituencies at that point. That FDR was conservative is laughable.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Saints, there is nothing at all "liberal" in that speech by FDR you quoted . Though the father of the New Deal, FDR was in many ways conservative. His social conservatism was such that if he lived today he might identify himself as a Republican. You're confusing liberal with Democrat here.

Not only that, a commerative speech by a liberal about CC does not therefore mean that CC is a "liberal icon". That's ridiculous. Is there some,other consensus somewhere that this is so? It makes no intuitive sense, CC has always been much more emblematic of a conservative worldview than a liberal one-the inaccuracies in his legacy as taught in our country encourage nationalism and ethnocentrism which are hardly liberal values.

I didn't say "is", I said "was." CC was not about ethnocentrism and nationalism at the time, quite the opposite. He was about the melting pot.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

The best summary comes from the Oatmeal

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

Columbus Day was established in the 1930s by a male-only Catholic organization known as the Knights of Columbus. They wanted a male, Catholic role model their kids could look up to, so they pressured Roosevelt into making it a national holiday.

Also as stated there was a time when CC was a liberal icon because he was a symbol of the ingenuity and accomplishment of the non-Anglo immigrant. That image and concept have changed because awareness of what he did after the the discovery has changed.

You've said this twice now. Where are you getting this from? When was this time? I'm genuinely curious, can you point me to something that illustrates this?

Sure, here's FDR, 10/12/40:

The voyage of Christopher Columbus and his diminutive fleet toward the unknown west was not only a prelude to a new historical era. For the brave navigator it was the culmination of years of bold speculation, careful preparation, and struggle against opponents who had belittled his great plan and thwarted its execution.

Expounding the strange doctrine that beyond the ocean stood solid, habitable earth, Columbus had first to make his views plausible to his doubting patrons and then to overcome the seemingly endless array of obstacles with which men of little minds barred the way to the fitting out of a fleet. Even when the three small ships were well away on their epoch-making course the crews mutinied and demanded that he turn back. Columbus, however, held to his course and on the morning of October 12, 1492, the welcome land was sighted.

The courage and the faith and the vision of the Genoese navigator glorify and enrich the drama of the early movement of European people to America. Columbus and his fellow voyagers were the harbingers of later mighty movements of people from Spain, from Columbus's native Italy and from every country in Europe. And out of the fusion of all these national strains was created the America to which the Old World contributed so magnificently.This year when we contemplate the estate to which the world has been brought by destructive forces, with lawlessness and wanton power ravaging an older civilization, and with our own republic girding itself for the defense of its institutions, we can revitalize our faith and renew our courage by a recollection of the triumph of Columbus after a period of grievous trial.

The promise which Columbus's discovery gave to the world, of a new beginning in the march of human progress, has been in process of fulfillment for four centuries. Our task is now to make strong our conviction that in spite of setbacks that process will go on toward fulfillment.

He was Italian, representing the mass movement of immigrants to America, "march of human progress", etc., it's all there.

This supports the idea that "there was a time when CC was a liberal icon"? That's a massive stretch.

You initially steered me to that Oatmeal article-your post in my email-and I assume you then edited this to what it is now? There's nothing in that Oatmeal article that suggests CC was ever a "liberal icon" either. It seems as if this is your particular spin . I was just curious if I was always unaware that there was some other commentary or consensus that CC had once been regarded in this way.

I didn't quote the part about him being a liberal icon because it wasn't a quote or from the article, that was my comment. And he most definitely was such.

So it is not true that CC is a "liberal icon". It was, in fact, your spin.

Your reasoning:

FDR said nice things about CC.

FDR was a liberal icon

Therefore, CC was a "liberal icon"

I'm sorry, that's nonsensical reasoning and a completely unsupported statement.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

So it is not true that CC is a "liberal icon". It was, in fact, your spin.

Your reasoning:

FDR said nice things about CC.

FDR was a liberal icon

Therefore, CC was a "liberal icon"

I'm sorry, that's nonsensical reasoning and a completely unsupported statement.

Gandalf, yes, it was most definitely my opinion. It's an open forum, I believe.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

Saints, there is nothing at all "liberal" in that speech by FDR you quoted . Though the father of the New Deal, FDR was in many ways conservative. His social conservatism was such that if he lived today he might identify himself as a Republican. You're confusing liberal with Democrat here.

Not only that, a commerative speech by a liberal about CC does not therefore mean that CC is a "liberal icon". That's ridiculous. Is there some,other consensus somewhere that this is so? It makes no intuitive sense, CC has always been much more emblematic of a conservative worldview than a liberal one-the inaccuracies in his legacy as taught in our country encourage nationalism and ethnocentrism which are hardly liberal values.

I didn't say "is", I said "was." CC was not about ethnocentrism and nationalism at the time, quite the opposite. He was about the melting pot.

True. And that makes little difference. Surely you can find something solid to support the "liberal icon" stuff? I googled it and couldn't find a single thing that supported that, though perhaps I wasn't thorough enough. It seems to me that that is your way of making some kind of point, though I'm not exactly sure what it is.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

So it is not true that CC is a "liberal icon". It was, in fact, your spin.

Your reasoning:

FDR said nice things about CC.

FDR was a liberal icon

Therefore, CC was a "liberal icon"

I'm sorry, that's nonsensical reasoning and a completely unsupported statement.

Gandalf, yes, it was most definitely my opinion. It's an open forum, I believe.

That's fine. You just repeated something that struck me as ridiculous and I wondered if I was missing something, like maybe other liberal writings that suggested such a thing. When you use the word "icon" it suggests a broad consensus of opinion.

Thank you for clarifying for me.

 

[Christo]

If the guy who presided over the New Deal, National Labor Relations Act, and Social Security Act isn't a liberal icon there is no such thing.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Saints, there is nothing at all "liberal" in that speech by FDR you quoted . Though the father of the New Deal, FDR was in many ways conservative. His social conservatism was such that if he lived today he might identify himself as a Republican. You're confusing liberal with Democrat here.

Not only that, a commerative speech by a liberal about CC does not therefore mean that CC is a "liberal icon". That's ridiculous. Is there some,other consensus somewhere that this is so? It makes no intuitive sense, CC has always been much more emblematic of a conservative worldview than a liberal one-the inaccuracies in his legacy as taught in our country encourage nationalism and ethnocentrism which are hardly liberal values.

I didn't say "is", I said "was." CC was not about ethnocentrism and nationalism at the time, quite the opposite. He was about the melting pot.

True. And that makes little difference. Surely you can find something solid to support the "liberal icon" stuff? I googled it and couldn't find a single thing that supported that, though perhaps I wasn't thorough enough. It seems to me that that is your way of making some kind of point, though I'm not exactly sure what it is.

Maybe it helps to under stand the context. This is from wiki:

Opposition to Columbus Day dates to at least the 19th century where activists had sought to eradicate Columbus Day celebrations because of its association with immigrants and the Knights of Columbus. They were afraid it was being used to expand Catholic influence.\

Maybe a better way to describe it would have been that CC was an icon of the immigrant and Catholic communities and liberals (politically speaking) made it a point of pursuing those groups and representing them. Nativists and conservatives (perhaps as now) used to be anti-immigrant and anti-Catholic. Columbus was seen as a source of pride for immigrant groups and Catholics. I will add that at the time the hagiography on CC was that he had defied conservative "flat earth" thinking of his age. He was viewed as progressive, defying the establishment and backward thinking. - The Democrats, the liberal wing not the Southern conservative wing, made a point of pursuing these constituencies. I know it seems hard to imagine but there was a time when this was a big deal to those who were considered very disenfranchised at the time. Like I said it was similar to the push for the MLK Day. FDR made it a holiday ultimately.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

Saints, there is nothing at all "liberal" in that speech by FDR you quoted . Though the father of the New Deal, FDR was in many ways conservative. His social conservatism was such that if he lived today he might identify himself as a Republican. You're confusing liberal with Democrat here.

Not only that, a commerative speech by a liberal about CC does not therefore mean that CC is a "liberal icon". That's ridiculous. Is there some,other consensus somewhere that this is so? It makes no intuitive sense, CC has always been much more emblematic of a conservative worldview than a liberal one-the inaccuracies in his legacy as taught in our country encourage nationalism and ethnocentrism which are hardly liberal values.

I didn't say "is", I said "was." CC was not about ethnocentrism and nationalism at the time, quite the opposite. He was about the melting pot.

True. And that makes little difference. Surely you can find something solid to support the "liberal icon" stuff? I googled it and couldn't find a single thing that supported that, though perhaps I wasn't thorough enough. It seems to me that that is your way of making some kind of point, though I'm not exactly sure what it is.

Maybe it helps to under stand the context. This is from wiki:

Opposition to Columbus Day dates to at least the 19th century where activists had sought to eradicate Columbus Day celebrations because of its association with immigrants and the Knights of Columbus. They were afraid it was being used to expand Catholic influence.\

Maybe a better way to describe it would have been that CC was an icon of the immigrant and Catholic communities and liberals (politically speaking) made it a point of pursuing those groups and representing them. Nativists and conservatives (perhaps as now) used to be anti-immigrant and anti-Catholic. Columbus was seen as a source of pride for immigrant groups and Catholics. I will add that at the time the hagiography on CC was that he had defied conservative "flat earth" thinking of his age. He was viewed as progressive, defying the establishment and backward thinking. - The Democrats, the liberal wing not the Southern conservative wing, made a point of pursuing these constituencies. I know it seems hard to imagine but there was a time when this was a big deal to those who were considered very disenfranchised at the time. Like I said it was similar to the push for the MLK Day. FDR made it a holiday ultimately.

The political maneuvering you describe is certainly an interesting historical footnote. That's still a far cry from labeling CC at one time a "liberal icon". I just object to the subtext/connotations that carries. I guess I can see your path to that though. Thanks for the responses, I won't beat this dead horse any more.