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Harvin to Bills/ Formerly the Harvin to Hawks & Jets (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Bigboy10182000
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ckalltheway
Footballguy
Seahawks offense looked great against the saints until he got hurt. If he plays even a half it might be enough to win the super bowl. Seahawks offense is kind of flying under the radar because theyve played a lot of great defenses over the past couple of months. I expect them to go to town on the broncos D especially if they have Harvin for the whole game.
Um, both the Seahawks & the Saints offenses looked horrible for most of the game.
That is a pretty dumb comment. Sure, it hasn't been good for the Seahawks, but the potential for the future is so completely different that the trade isn't close to as bad.
Look at it this way, Richardson was healthy all year and Harvin has had more of an impact in the playoffs in a little over 1 quarter of play than TRich did in 2 games. As Just Win said, Harvin could still have an impact in the biggest game of the year for the Seahawks and if he helps them win a Super Bowl, the trade will be a good one, regardless of the time Harvin was hurt.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Harvin was 3 for 21 off of 4 targets against the Saints until he left the game just before the half. Not horrid, but certainly not something that indicates to me that he can simply step back on field and light the world on fire.
His catches in that game were for -1, 6, and a 16 yard first down -- a dink, a dunk, and then he got some separation. I don't care how much talent a player has, you simply don't just slip right back into prime season form right away. Takes a while to get your explosion back, and Harvin was being used to move the chains, not to stretch the field.
He did rush for 9 yards, which was a good sign to me that the Hawks will use Harvin dynamically, but I can't see Harvin being the guy who all of the sudden blows up at the Superbowl.
Harvin will add another element to account for, though. I see this Superbowl coming down to the Hawks D putting pressure on the receivers and forcing the Broncs to run, and the Broncos trying to bottle up Lynch and keep Russell in the pocket. Because of this, the way Seattle will put points on the board and stay ahead of the Broncos is all on their receivers.
And while I think Harvin contributes just by being on the field and needing to be accounted for, I imagine he'll be used in the same way and contribute, but it will be guys like Tate and Baldwin who will make more of a contribution, IMHO, testing the Broncos d-backs and the seams in zone coverage.
He had an affect. Just look at the 5 drives where he played. 3 FGs, 1TD and 1 punt. The other drives: 1 TD and 5 punts. 80% scoring rate when he played and 16% when he didn't.Stompin said:
Sure, Harvin didn't do everything, but his 9 yard run was followed by Lynch's first TD run and if you watched the play (my memory isn't perfect, but I noticed it), Harvin goes left and the whole NO D does as well and when Lynch cuts back right, there is nobody there. Harvin absolutely got attention from the defense and helped just by being out there.
Tau837
Footballguy
Harvin's plays in his 19 snaps in the Saints game:Stompin said:
2nd and 10 at NO 40 (Shotgun) R.Wilson pass short left to P.Harvin to NO 41 for -1 yards (M.Jenkins; R.Harper).
3rd and 11 at NO 41 (Shotgun) R.Wilson pass incomplete deep left to P.Harvin (R.Bush). PENALTY on NO-R.Bush, Unnecessary Roughness, 14 yards, enforced at NO 41 - No Play.
1st and 10 at NO 24 (Shotgun) P.Harvin right end pushed ob at NO 15 for 9 yards (C.Lofton).
3rd and 9 at SEA 22 (Shotgun) R.Wilson pass short middle to P.Harvin to SEA 28 for 6 yards (T.Wade).
3rd and 8 at SEA 49 (Shotgun) R.Wilson pass short left to P.Harvin to NO 35 for 16 yards (C.White).
2nd and 8 at NO 8 (Shotgun) R.Wilson pass incomplete short left to P.Harvin.
That second play above doesn't show up in the stats, but should have been a 25 yard completion. And he and Wilson just missed on a TD on that last play. He could have easily had 63 yards and a TD in 6 opportunities.
He returned 1 kickoff this season, and took it 58 yards. He is a playmaker. If he plays meaningful snaps, he will make an impact.
Yeah, on a FF side, I drafted him way late in 2 keeper league for next year, so it would actually be nice to see him play a full game to gauge his potential impact next year. He's showed a little bit, but we haven't even gotten a full game. I have had him before, especially helping me in his great 2011 finish and his great 2012 start. I know how explosive he is and how good he is in PPR leagues like I am in, but it would be nice to see a full game with Seattle before having to commit on him. At least it seems
knockonwood
that he looks to be healthy going into 2014.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
I beg to differ. That pass was nowhere near to being a TD, the ball came to Harvin at around the 20 yard line when he was tightly bracketed in coverage. He had zero separation on the CB who was with him all the way, and he barely managed to get one hand up to try and make a catch off of a superbly thrown ball by Russell. Bush was coming from over top and Harvin clearly heard footsteps. Was a ticky-tack UR call but even if Bush hadn't been in on the play I don't think it's likely Harvin would have caught that ball. let alone had a shot at the end zone.
So you are clear, I didn't say Harvin isn't a special talent or an impactful playmaker. I am saying it's more likely he is a contributor rather than a difference maker for the Hawks next weekend. To me, some comments in this thread make it seem that they hope for him being an unstoppable force and steps back onto the field as the next coming of Megatron.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
I don't think he would have scored a TD either.
The reason Harvin only got one hand up was the SEA DB held his inside, right arm. Recalling it from memory, but It was pretty blatant.
The first FG was a product of a UR call where Harvin wouldn't have caught the ball regardless. Other than that play, the Seahawks couldn't move the ball on that drive. The 2nd field goal started with good field position & ended with a 49 yd FG, hardly what I would consider great offensive movement. The TD was a result of an extremely short field after the Saints fumble. Again, hardly what I would consider great offense. The Seahawks finally were able to put a good drive together, but still couldn't get it in the endzone when they got it down inside the 20 and had to settle for, yet another, FG. You can probably talk yourself into thinking the Seahawks offense played well, but up until late in the 2nd half, they did not.
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Tau837
Footballguy
There is a reading comprehension problem here.
On the second play I posted, it should have been a 25 yard completion. It hit Harvin in the hands and he was already in the process of dropping it (whether due to the defender or just a drop) when he got hit and the penalty was called. That is not the play I said was a near TD.
The last play in the list I posted was the near TD. It was just off Harvin's hands in the end zone. It was very close to an 8 yard TD.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
He will be the Super Bowl MVP!
Maelstrom
Footballguy
And it is clear the Seahawks didn't need Harvin to make the jump. So ... the premise that the Vikes are currently the big winner on this trade (i.e. destroyed the Hawks) stands.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
The trade catapulted MIN to like four wins? Without it, maybe they only win three? Definitely destroyed.
Yeah, when the player you trade for misses the season due to a freak hip surgery, it won't look good on paper that year. But it wasn't a one year rental. Let's revisit it in 2014, 2015, etc. Hard to compare with Richardson. He played and was mediocre. We know when Harvin plays, he is capable of being one of the top WRs in the league.
Yeah, when the player you trade for misses the season due to a freak hip surgery, it won't look good on paper that year. But it wasn't a one year rental. Let's revisit it in 2014, 2015, etc. Hard to compare with Richardson. He played and was mediocre. We know when Harvin plays, he is capable of being one of the top WRs in the league.
1. "Harvin has been kicked out of programs his whole life," an NFL GM choosing to remain anonymous said, after Harvin's trade to the Seahawks. "Not just in the NFL, but in high school and junior high. He has never proven to be sustainably coachable."The trade catapulted MIN to like four wins? Without it, maybe they only win three? Definitely destroyed.
Yeah, when the player you trade for misses the season due to a freak hip surgery, it won't look good on paper that year. But it wasn't a one year rental. Let's revisit it in 2014, 2015, etc. Hard to compare with Richardson. He played and was mediocre. We know when Harvin plays, he is capable of being one of the top WRs in the league.
2. Harvin has played a grand total of ten games since the end of the 2011 season. Nine in 2012, one in 2013. If the league had a Most Talented Player Award for sitting on the bench? Harvin would have won it two seasons running.
3. Harvin's positive drug test (marijuana) at the NFL Combine. Anyone care to comment on the State of Washington's laws related to marijuana?
Full Disclosure: I'm a Vikings fan...which will probably make you write this post off as the bitter rant of a fan whose team SUCKED ### in 2013, while Harvin will be playing in the Super Bowl. It's not. I'm perfectly happy with Rhodes and Patterson (instead of Harvin), and wish Harvin the best in Seattle! I'm just saying Harvin comes with a lot of "smoke." And if his attitude re: authority/rules doesn't get him, his not being able to stay healthy will. If Harvin can somehow all of the sudden not get injured and not slowly lose a step as he ages? Maybe he won't be able to lay-off the "wake 'n bake" (copyright: Santonio Holmes). If he can stay healthy AND lay off the Mary Jane (at least in-season)? Maybe that temper or chip on his shoulder will cause him to wear out another welcome.
Addition by subtraction is an over-used cliche. But Harvin's subtraction, coupled with the additions of Rhodes and Patterson, have most Vikings fans long, LONG over Harvin's deal to Seattle. Now the mess at QB since Favre's one-and-done?! THAT is something that haunts our conscious and unconscious lives as fans...
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
Umm, call me crazy, but it's also clear Seattle didnt need that first round pick to make the jump either.
Interesting folks are jumping on the word destroyed as if no one throws that around in FF circles talking smack. The Vikings got a way better deal here.
Harvin is such a special athlete that every injury of his has someone claiming it's a freak injury. How about he's injury prone, brittle, or some other explanation? My favorite phrase was freak rib injury...cmon now. The day the season starts, pencil him in to be on the injury report each week; erase as needed.
He isn't in anyway a top WR-he's never had 1000 yards receiving and every single offseason we discuss how that barometer should be raised to like 1200 or somesuch.
He is exciting, no doubt and while watching him when he's on, sure for a game here N there he looks like a top WR. He's gotta at least get 1000 yards though.
He's 5-9 and 185 pounds holding bags of sand on the scale. He more resembles that common cliche of a guy that's not built for the league and can't take the hits. 5 years, only finished a season once.
He's going to be entering his 6th year in the league next year and people will still use the word potential. I've heard plenty of 3rd year talk with WR development but sixth? Cmon by this logic is this guy going to finally hit his potential after being a great rookie http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ClayMi00.htm
There's gotta be a point that you drop the word potential and accept wysiwyg with a player. If (oh so many) those in this thread want to continue to dream of highlight reels and plentiful stats, have at it-that's probably a fun thought. We're soon to be entering year six and I won't be
Trade stuff- seattle got an oft-injured player who wound up being injured
Minny got two players who are still young enough that potential doesn't sound odd with, and another player in this coming draft.
It's not close in value.
Salary and cap cost are pretty high with Harvin making 10-11 mil every year of his deal. Vikes players don't cost that much. If we're talking $ by trading Harvin, the Vikes can probably afford the rooks and a free agent too with that 11 mil.
Harvin is such a special athlete that every injury of his has someone claiming it's a freak injury. How about he's injury prone, brittle, or some other explanation? My favorite phrase was freak rib injury...cmon now. The day the season starts, pencil him in to be on the injury report each week; erase as needed.
He isn't in anyway a top WR-he's never had 1000 yards receiving and every single offseason we discuss how that barometer should be raised to like 1200 or somesuch.
He is exciting, no doubt and while watching him when he's on, sure for a game here N there he looks like a top WR. He's gotta at least get 1000 yards though.
He's 5-9 and 185 pounds holding bags of sand on the scale. He more resembles that common cliche of a guy that's not built for the league and can't take the hits. 5 years, only finished a season once.
He's going to be entering his 6th year in the league next year and people will still use the word potential. I've heard plenty of 3rd year talk with WR development but sixth? Cmon by this logic is this guy going to finally hit his potential after being a great rookie http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ClayMi00.htm
There's gotta be a point that you drop the word potential and accept wysiwyg with a player. If (oh so many) those in this thread want to continue to dream of highlight reels and plentiful stats, have at it-that's probably a fun thought. We're soon to be entering year six and I won't be
Trade stuff- seattle got an oft-injured player who wound up being injured
Minny got two players who are still young enough that potential doesn't sound odd with, and another player in this coming draft.
It's not close in value.
Salary and cap cost are pretty high with Harvin making 10-11 mil every year of his deal. Vikes players don't cost that much. If we're talking $ by trading Harvin, the Vikes can probably afford the rooks and a free agent too with that 11 mil.
biju
Footballguy
Actually I think the thing more people get caught up on is the idea a winner and loser can be identified from one season. If I were you I would probably wait three years before claiming victory, especially since the Vikings were effectively eliminated from post season play around week 9.
Didn't need?
So the NFL should create a rule that teams that qualify for the AFCC or NFCC don't get first round picks because they don't need them?
How does them being eliminated in week 9 have anything to do with this?
If they had Percy's hurt hip on their sideline it would be different? Percy was a key cog in the Seahawks success? They'd never have made it without him?
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
1. I have to think Carroll is aware of his background and factored that into his decision to trade a first round pick for him and pay him like a top five WR. Maybe he is deluded in thinking "it will be different this time", or maybe he has a plan to work with him? Time will tell. Did he get kicked off Florida in college? Also, he played at a pretty high level for four years (three and a half seasons?) in MIN, if he can do that in SEA, it could still easily be a win for SEA.2. Harvin also missed only three games combined in his first three seasons (and if not for the since solved migraines, he might have not missed any games?). He missed this season because of the freak hip injury. Was there anything in his past to suggest he would need hip surgery? I'm not a big fan of the psychic hindsight school of trade evaluation.1. "Harvin has been kicked out of programs his whole life," an NFL GM choosing to remain anonymous said, after Harvin's trade to the Seahawks. "Not just in the NFL, but in high school and junior high. He has never proven to be sustainably coachable."The trade catapulted MIN to like four wins? Without it, maybe they only win three? Definitely destroyed.
Yeah, when the player you trade for misses the season due to a freak hip surgery, it won't look good on paper that year. But it wasn't a one year rental. Let's revisit it in 2014, 2015, etc. Hard to compare with Richardson. He played and was mediocre. We know when Harvin plays, he is capable of being one of the top WRs in the league.
2. Harvin has played a grand total of ten games since the end of the 2011 season. Nine in 2012, one in 2013. If the league had a Most Talented Player Award for sitting on the bench? Harvin would have won it two seasons running.
3. Harvin's positive drug test (marijuana) at the NFL Combine. Anyone care to comment on the State of Washington's laws related to marijuana?
Full Disclosure: I'm a Vikings fan...which will probably make you write this post off as the bitter rant of a fan whose team SUCKED ### in 2013, while Harvin will be playing in the Super Bowl. It's not. I'm perfectly happy with Rhodes and Patterson (instead of Harvin), and wish Harvin the best in Seattle! I'm just saying Harvin comes with a lot of "smoke." And if his attitude re: authority/rules doesn't get him, his not being able to stay healthy will. If Harvin can somehow all of the sudden not get injured and not slowly lose a step as he ages? Maybe he won't be able to lay-off the "wake 'n bake" (copyright: Santonio Holmes). If he can stay healthy AND lay off the Mary Jane (at least in-season)? Maybe that temper or chip on his shoulder will cause him to wear out another welcome.
Addition by subtraction is an over-used cliche. But Harvin's subtraction, coupled with the additions of Rhodes and Patterson, have most Vikings fans long, LONG over Harvin's deal to Seattle. Now the mess at QB since Favre's one-and-done?! THAT is something that haunts our conscious and unconscious lives as fans...
3. Smoking a blunt when you know you are going to get tested is a knucklehead move, I won't argue that. But it was like a half decade ago, and as far as I know, with no further incidents (it's not like he is Blackmon or Gordon). How long would he need to stay out of trouble where you would stop being concerned... 10 years, 15 years?
If we are strictly going by the trade, you exchanged Harvin for Rhodes (edit/add - plus a 2013 seventh and 2014 third... and rid yourself of the need to extend Harvin to something like the top 5 contract he got in MIN, so that does help free up salary cap space for other positions, though they did spend some of it on the older Greg Jennings, who has less upside if Harvin returns to form). I like Rhodes, and wish you the best, I hope he works out great, but he has a long way to go before he could make a comparable impact at his position, like Harvin has and is capable of at his position when right physically. If this move prompted MIN to get Patterson, I do think he has superstar potential, and that could easily be the best thing that comes from this transaction. But he did come at the cost of a second, third and fourth, so that would need to be entered into the cost/benefit analysis ledger. Also, getting Patterson, doesn't have to preclude Harvin starring for SEA, from that perspective, it could be a win win for both teams. I was partly responding to the Richardson comment (not from you), which I don't agree with, long term.
As far as losing a step, I don't want to make light of hip surgery, it blew up his 2013 season, but he looked pretty explosive to me on that kick return he took for about 50 yards, I didn't detect any kind of catastrophic diminishing of the speed I'm accustomed to. He is 25. Unless his return from the hip surgery has unforeseen complications, I don't think he will be needing a walker any time soon. Returning to the got kicked out at every level comment. The other side of the coin is he has been absurdly, ridiculously more talented than virtually everybody on the field (or track) at these lower levels and previous stops. As far back as the Pop Warner level, I think he won a national championship. In grade school, I think he was part of a relay team that set a national age group record. He ran something like a 10.4 as a prep, and became the first VA prep to get five gold medals in the state meet in nearly three quarters of a century. At Florida, he was probably the best I can ever recall seeing as a dual threat RB/WR. At MIN, he was one of the most explosive NFL players I've ever seen, with Deion Sanders and Randy Moss. Talents like that don't grow on trees.
BTW, as an outsider, I thought initially MIN made overtures to extending him, but they were rebuffed. Any sense of why? Was the initial offer lowball, or had too many incentives. Didn't like Ponder (he did seem genuinely excited about working with Wilson, and hard to not call that a massive upgrade)? Didn't like the HC, or GM, or just the area/region?
Anyways, thanks for the thoughtful response. I really can understand how MIN has moved on and is happy with the exchange. Again, my response was mostly directed at comparing the trade to Richardson, which I think is grossly premature as this was a long term deal. Everybody sees things differently, and people have different levels of risk aversion/tolerance, so to be expected that is in evidence in this exchange. But the above wasn't hype for rhetorical effect. Harvin really is one of the most explosive, talented and versatile athletes I've ever seen in college or the NFL. I think it was a good roll of the dice for Carroll. The fact that he seemingly wasn't needed and his absence didn't hurt this year, makes this point as effectively as anything I could say or any evidence I could marshall. Carroll still has him in his back pocket for future seasons, if he returns to form.
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
How on Earth did you take my reponse to the post I quoted and come up with this???
It was mentioned that the Seahawks didnt need Harvin to get where they are, so they "lost" on this trade because they didn't need to make it.
Well, technically they got no use out of that 1st round pick this year, so they didn't need that either.
And I also agree with whoever said that comparing this deal to the Richardson deal doesn't make any sense. Harvin gor hurt, but is coming back and will be back. Richardson just sucks. I can argue that Harvin did more for his team by not playing than Richardson did by getting 2 yards a carry. At least Harvin wasn't hurting the team on the field by sucking and fumbling.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
If your position is unassailably strong, why not accurately list the good and bad of Harvin and see where the chips of your position fall. Why the thousand yard shtick. Most WRs aren't the greatest rushing WR in league history, and aren't capable of putting up 1,300 COMBINED yards, so that is kind of an important oversight, don't you think. Do you not get credit for WR rushing yards in your leagues? We wouldn't want to negatively skew our impression of him, since your argument should be strong enough on its own merits.He missed three games in the first three years, so if we focus completely on the second half of 2012 and 2013 to the exclusion of his earlier history, it does look worse than if you take a look at his body of work as a whole. If you are trying to smear his record as much as possible, let's leave out his first three years.
Yes, he missed the second half of 2012 (I'm trying to account for the good AND bad). But you also left out the part where he was the #2 WR after Calvin Johnson in the first half. Again, the game here or there comes across as shtick, it was a half season.
Only finished a season once? He missed three games in his first three years, not sure what you are talking about? If he plays 15 games and misses one, does it make sense to to say "he didn't finish the season"? Your argument should be very strong on its own merits without needing to negatively characteriize him in that way. Let's accurately portray the good and bad, and see where the chips fall.
You mentioned getting two players in the trade already. Rhodes was one. Who was the other, a seventh round pick? And we don't know who will be picked with one of the last picks in the third this year (close to a fourth rounder in value). So from this, you conclude it isn't close on value. On what basis, are you assuming he is going to miss half or all of 2014, 2015 and 2016, too? What injury is he going to have? When? How long will it last? Got any insight on lotto numbers? BTW, I'm not saying the opposite as you, that clearly SEA won, just that we will have a better idea in a year, and a much better idea in a few years. Would you take somebody seriously who gave definitive pronouncements on the 2013 draft class after ONE year? Doesn't it usually take several years?
MIN did save some money on salary cap, but they spent some of it on Jennings. Again, let's see how they stack up relative to each other in the next few years, if we want to include that in the broader conversation (it is a fair point, but it may not make the one you want it to in the future).
We can go back and forth, and you can say, but it didn't help SEA, and I could say, but it didn't help MIN, than you could say, but it didn't help SEA. Let's not go there, or get into that loop. First of all, we may be mixing up different temporal levels of discourse. I've already addressed the future. You are entitled to your opinion, mine is that it is ridiculously premature to claim "victory" on the trade on that basis, for the reasons outlined above. Nobody has the slightest idea what Harvin will do in 2014, 2015, 2016, etc., or how Rhodes will turn out, or the 2013 7th round pick, or the 2014 third rounder, or Greg Jennings (maybe they will get injured, and we know you wouldn't be too keen on that)?
Now about the present, or rather the just finished 2013 season, the fact that the trade didn't help SEA is too obvious to need elaboration. But how much did it help MIN, in a FIVE WIN SEASON?
Again, about the future, it is far too early to make sweeping claims to victory. So how much could it have helped MIN, THIS YEAR. That is sort of like if there were two separate fights (and let's call two of the fighters in these separate fights SEA and MIN). SEA doesn't make weight, or doesn't have regulation gloves, and for whatever reason is disqualified and doesn't even get to fight. MIN is knocked out in the opening seconds of the first round. After regaining consciousness and getting off the canvas, MIN dances around SEA, does a Muhammad Ali shuffle and crows, "I OWNED you, I did WAY better in my fight!" Why crow about the 2013 season (that is smack talk, BTW, like you reserved for yourself with the word destroyed), it was an ugly season coming off a 2012 playoff campaign (effectively over after a 1-7 start). If you disagree, randomly poll strangers and ask 100 of them if MIN had a good season. Zero people (that were informed) would agree with this. It wasn't exactly a crowing-inducing season. Really no need, or basis, regarding this past season, to go there.As I said, let's revisit this in a year or two.
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
Can't we just say that so far the Vikings are "winning" that trade??
They have by no means won it.
They have by no means won it.
cstu
Footballguy
It was a win for the Vikings, it doesn't need to be a competition with the Seahawks.
Tau837
Footballguy
It is premature to judge the outcome of the trade for either Minnesota or Seattle, both short term and long term.
Long term, as many have pointed out, Harvin is 25, there is no reason to expect his hip injury to carry into next season, and he is an explosive playmaker in the two areas Seattle was weakest this season: WR and kickoff returns. So there is reason to believe it will work out well for Seattle in the long term. But we'll have to see it play out for a few more years to judge that effectively.
Short term, we are a week away from Harvin potentiallyl making an important impact in a Super Bowl win. He already made an impact in a playoff win helping Seattle get to this point. If the Seahawks win the Super Bowl, or if Harvin plays well in a Super Bowl loss, I don't really see much of an argument that Seattle is "losing" the trade.
YMMV.
Long term, as many have pointed out, Harvin is 25, there is no reason to expect his hip injury to carry into next season, and he is an explosive playmaker in the two areas Seattle was weakest this season: WR and kickoff returns. So there is reason to believe it will work out well for Seattle in the long term. But we'll have to see it play out for a few more years to judge that effectively.
Short term, we are a week away from Harvin potentiallyl making an important impact in a Super Bowl win. He already made an impact in a playoff win helping Seattle get to this point. If the Seahawks win the Super Bowl, or if Harvin plays well in a Super Bowl loss, I don't really see much of an argument that Seattle is "losing" the trade.
YMMV.
Jobber
Footballguy
Thanks Bob.1. I have to think Carroll is aware of his background and factored that into his decision to trade a first round pick for him and pay him like a top five WR. Maybe he is deluded in thinking "it will be different this time", or maybe he has a plan to work with him? Time will tell. Did he get kicked off Florida in college? Also, he played at a pretty high level for four years (three and a half seasons?) in MIN, if he can do that in SEA, it could still easily be a win for SEA.2. Harvin also missed only three games combined in his first three seasons (and if not for the since solved migraines, he might have not missed any games?). He missed this season because of the freak hip injury. Was there anything in his past to suggest he would need hip surgery? I'm not a big fan of the psychic hindsight school of trade evaluation.1. "Harvin has been kicked out of programs his whole life," an NFL GM choosing to remain anonymous said, after Harvin's trade to the Seahawks. "Not just in the NFL, but in high school and junior high. He has never proven to be sustainably coachable."The trade catapulted MIN to like four wins? Without it, maybe they only win three? Definitely destroyed.
Yeah, when the player you trade for misses the season due to a freak hip surgery, it won't look good on paper that year. But it wasn't a one year rental. Let's revisit it in 2014, 2015, etc. Hard to compare with Richardson. He played and was mediocre. We know when Harvin plays, he is capable of being one of the top WRs in the league.
2. Harvin has played a grand total of ten games since the end of the 2011 season. Nine in 2012, one in 2013. If the league had a Most Talented Player Award for sitting on the bench? Harvin would have won it two seasons running.
3. Harvin's positive drug test (marijuana) at the NFL Combine. Anyone care to comment on the State of Washington's laws related to marijuana?
Full Disclosure: I'm a Vikings fan...which will probably make you write this post off as the bitter rant of a fan whose team SUCKED ### in 2013, while Harvin will be playing in the Super Bowl. It's not. I'm perfectly happy with Rhodes and Patterson (instead of Harvin), and wish Harvin the best in Seattle! I'm just saying Harvin comes with a lot of "smoke." And if his attitude re: authority/rules doesn't get him, his not being able to stay healthy will. If Harvin can somehow all of the sudden not get injured and not slowly lose a step as he ages? Maybe he won't be able to lay-off the "wake 'n bake" (copyright: Santonio Holmes). If he can stay healthy AND lay off the Mary Jane (at least in-season)? Maybe that temper or chip on his shoulder will cause him to wear out another welcome.
Addition by subtraction is an over-used cliche. But Harvin's subtraction, coupled with the additions of Rhodes and Patterson, have most Vikings fans long, LONG over Harvin's deal to Seattle. Now the mess at QB since Favre's one-and-done?! THAT is something that haunts our conscious and unconscious lives as fans...
3. Smoking a blunt when you know you are going to get tested is a knucklehead move, I won't argue that. But it was like a half decade ago, and as far as I know, with no further incidents (it's not like he is Blackmon or Gordon). How long would he need to stay out of trouble where you would stop being concerned... 10 years, 15 years?
If we are strictly going by the trade, you exchanged Harvin for Rhodes (edit/add - plus a 2013 seventh and 2014 third... and rid yourself of the need to extend Harvin to something like the top 5 contract he got in MIN, so that does help free up salary cap space for other positions, though they did spend some of it on the older Greg Jennings, who has less upside if Harvin returns to form). I like Rhodes, and wish you the best, I hope he works out great, but he has a long way to go before he could make a comparable impact at his position, like Harvin has and is capable of at his position when right physically. If this move prompted MIN to get Patterson, I do think he has superstar potential, and that could easily be the best thing that comes from this transaction. But he did come at the cost of a second, third and fourth, so that would need to be entered into the cost/benefit analysis ledger. Also, getting Patterson, doesn't have to preclude Harvin starring for SEA, from that perspective, it could be a win win for both teams. I was partly responding to the Richardson comment (not from you), which I don't agree with, long term.
As far as losing a step, I don't want to make light of hip surgery, it blew up his 2013 season, but he looked pretty explosive to me on that kick return he took for about 50 yards, I didn't detect any kind of catastrophic diminishing of the speed I'm accustomed to. He is 25. Unless his return from the hip surgery has unforeseen complications, I don't think he will be needing a walker any time soon. Returning to the got kicked out at every level comment. The other side of the coin is he has been absurdly, ridiculously more talented than virtually everybody on the field (or track) at these lower levels and previous stops. As far back as the Pop Warner level, I think he won a national championship. In grade school, I think he was part of a relay team that set a national age group record. He ran something like a 10.4 as a prep, and became the first VA prep to get five gold medals in the state meet in nearly three quarters of a century. At Florida, he was probably the best I can ever recall seeing as a dual threat RB/WR. At MIN, he was one of the most explosive NFL players I've ever seen, with Deion Sanders and Randy Moss. Talents like that don't grow on trees.
BTW, as an outsider, I thought initially MIN made overtures to extending him, but they were rebuffed. Any sense of why? Was the initial offer lowball, or had too many incentives. Didn't like Ponder (he did seem genuinely excited about working with Wilson, and hard to not call that a massive upgrade)? Didn't like the HC, or GM, or just the area/region?
Anyways, thanks for the thoughtful response. I really can understand how MIN has moved on and is happy with the exchange. Again, my response was mostly directed at comparing the trade to Richardson, which I think is grossly premature as this was a long term deal. Everybody sees things differently, and people have different levels of risk aversion/tolerance, so to be expected that is in evidence in this exchange. But the above wasn't hype for rhetorical effect. Harvin really is one of the most explosive, talented and versatile athletes I've ever seen in college or the NFL. I think it was a good roll of the dice for Carroll. The fact that he seemingly wasn't needed and his absence didn't hurt this year, makes this point as effectively as anything I could say or any evidence I could marshall. Carroll still has him in his back pocket for future seasons, if he returns to form.
That was part of the issue too...the fact that Harvin didn't really like it in MIN. Not sure if it was the area/climate, but I do know that he thought the Vikings were spinning their wheels on their post-Favre QB situation (he's a prophet, hehe). And at least several of the players are less than sorry to see the Leslie Frazier era end in MIN. Frazier was well-liked by the players, don't get me wrong! Rather, the Vikings just lacked that edge or toughness under his watch. That, and Frazier's selection of assistant coaches was likely his downfall, IMHO. About the only two offensive players on the roster who liked Musgrave as OC were Ponder and Peterson. Ponder because that note-card sized game day play sheet and non-vertical passing attack fit Ponder's skills perfectly (and he still could not succeed). And Peterson because the vast, VAST majority of Musgrave's offense revolved around #28. As it should have. Only try to occasionally call a play or two that is an actual surprise to the defense and fan base once in a while...instead of having even the fans tell you what the Vikings were going to do before they even broke the huddle half the time.
So if Harvin didn't want to be in MIN, didn't like the QB situation, didn't like the Frazier staff/playcalling, should the Vikings have drawn their line in the sand and gotten nothing in return for him after he could leave? Have him blow-up the locker room and cause all sorts of trouble if they put the franchise tag on him? When the Vikings announced the deal with the Seahawks, I was shocked how much they got for Harvin, truthfully. Not that his talent shouldn't have got them (even) more in return. Rather, that just about everyone around the league knew Harvin wasn't happy, and the Vikings' hand was effectively forced to move him before facing a franchise tag debacle or losing him for little/nothing.
And besides, cstu summed it up perfectly. It was a win for the Vikings. Positive yardage. So as a Vikings fan, why should I care if it was a win, loss, or tie for the Seahawks?! Ideally, both teams would benefit from any trade. But who really cares who "won more?" Especially since trying to keep Harvin would have been a big "loss" for the Vikings. Though I do have to say...it would have been fun to have a healthy Harvin with AP under Zimmer and Turner. But if we still had Harvin, we certainly wouldn't have Patterson. And AP and Patterson might be every-bit the offensive duo.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
I don't think you should care, Datonn.
I was just addressing the MIN clearly won the trade posts, which by necessity leads to comparison. But ideally it is a win win for both teams, as I hope the RGIII trade is long term. Thanks for the local/regional insight, one of the best things about the SP is we have all 32 teams covered.
I was just addressing the MIN clearly won the trade posts, which by necessity leads to comparison. But ideally it is a win win for both teams, as I hope the RGIII trade is long term. Thanks for the local/regional insight, one of the best things about the SP is we have all 32 teams covered.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Again, nothing has been "won".
Let's say Harvin plays well the next 5 years putting up pro bowl numbers. That would not be a win for the Vikings. It's been one year on a trade involving a draft pick and a 25 year old WR.
If they were not going to keep him then fine, I suppose you can view it as a win to get what they did for him. But that is more of a good move than it would be "winning the trade".
I don't think you can underestimate this point...in the end, it does not matter if he has played 3 quarters thus far or had 3 200 yard games in the regular season. At this point it is "undetermined". All I know is that in the playoff game, he made his presence felt...to the point where I can say I have rarely seen a guy lay it on the line like that right off a major injury...reminded me a bit of how Michael Pittman used to play (one of my all-time faves...guy had the vision of an old mole, but he always had the D on their heels...even if he continually ran into the first one he saw).proninja said:
cstu
Footballguy
The bolded assumes he would have done that on the Vikings without causing them any problems. My point is that it was a win for them even he's an All-Pro for Seattle. It could also be a huge win for Seattle if it works out that way.
The argument that Harvin has never had a 1000 yard receiving season as a reason he's overrated is amazing to me. He had 967 and 345 rushing. That's over 1300 yards. Should he get chastised because some of that came from running the football? Do those stats not count anymore?
so one in five means he's awesome? Point me to any post you made on these boards where you said any other WR was special because he got 1000 yards once in five years
Sabertooth
Footballguy
This sounds like something a woman would say to escalate an argument that really isn't there. I can almost see you doing this with a Jim Harbaugh face like this one http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/t_ku-xlarge/18dy5j4vwha04jpg.jpg
