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Has the cure become worse than the disease? (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter TripItUp
- Start date
But it is exactly the opposite. The young tend to be Democrat and the old tend to be Republican.
supermike80
Footballguy
A lot of people will die die to these restrictions. Why doesnt anyone talk about that?
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
That's projection, and currently irrelevant. We already have the best equipped military on the planet, and nobody is stupid enough to try anything major, so that's a nonstarter. Now, could there be military actions as a result of this? Maybe, but considering the fact that the last world war started because a madman rose to power, not because of a worldwide depression or pandemic, it's relatively unlikely.
kwille
Footballguy
If I am it won't be for political reasons because playing politics at a time like this is wasted energy at best. "Open back up" is a general term. I won't fault the decisions of any authority as long as informed decisions are being made (with a loud emphasis on the word informed).
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
For those who are concerned about lower income people losing their jobs and not having the means to support themselves, how would you feel about an unprecedented massive redistribution of wealth? I mean, Mike Bloomberg blew through half a billion dollars in a few months without blinking an eye. Maybe the best option is to keep stuff closed but just have the government just start taking billions of dollars from rich private citizens and to use that money to improve the social safety net. That way all those people we’re worried about will still have some income AND we don’t need to kill thousands of old people to do it.
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I think 100,000 is way below the real number, though of course we don't really know for sure.
I think someone had a pretty good counterpoint to this. Instead of sacrificing hundreds of thousands or millions of people, we could murder a few dozen billionaires and solve all of our economic problems. Of course I doubt anyone here supports murdering a few dozen billionaires because that would be evil. Which says something about the original point.
I also wonder how willing you would be to make your argument in the company of at risk family/friends. I'm not a Facebook guy but I saw a pretty good Facebook post the other day from someone that said something like "Just so you all know, those of us that are especially at risk to this disease can see which of you are willing to sacrifice us to save your job in the short term".
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Undecided.
Even when we get back to so called normal things will never be the quite the same again.
I won`t go to a sporting event, concert or any type of large event for a long time. My wife and I live in a town that has a bunch of pubs, sports bars and restaurants that we frequent quite often, she just said to me yesterday that she can`t see herself sitting in a crowded bar or restaurant for some time even if they reopen. Can you imagine getting into a crowded subway with people jammed next to each other getting in and out every stop?
Until a vaccine is developed even if we reopen it will look very different.
Even when we get back to so called normal things will never be the quite the same again.
I won`t go to a sporting event, concert or any type of large event for a long time. My wife and I live in a town that has a bunch of pubs, sports bars and restaurants that we frequent quite often, she just said to me yesterday that she can`t see herself sitting in a crowded bar or restaurant for some time even if they reopen. Can you imagine getting into a crowded subway with people jammed next to each other getting in and out every stop?
Until a vaccine is developed even if we reopen it will look very different.
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HellToupee
Footballguy
I wonder if there is a way to fairly compensate “at risk” individuals to stay at home while the others go back . Don’t know how , just spitballing . Might not be possible. Not really concerned about unproductive people gaming the system
HellToupee
Footballguy
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I live 20 miles from Ann Arbor MI, we tailgate at every Michigan football game with friends and then go home to watch the game. There are 110K people going to the game, and as many outside just partying. At times there might be 150K outside before games, where you can`t even get cell service. Inside the stadium people are packed in like sardines. IMO those days are over for quite some time.
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kwille
Footballguy
Quite a few thought experiments being tossed around. Nothing wrong with that as it helps establish some sideboards to this historic dilemma.
At the risk of over-simplifying, any next step phase-in decisions need to based on adaptive data-driven risk analyses. Adaptive: allows flexibility as new information is gained, Data-driven: effort is taken to identify what questions need to be answered and what data is needed to answer those questions. Structured data acquisition and continuous monitoring and analysis of the data follows. Risk Analysis: data informed risks are determined and weighted. Companion mitigation strategies are developed to reduce risk. Appropriate action is taken and the process starts anew. Politics is absent, or at least absent from the grown-ups table where the work gets done.
At the risk of over-simplifying, any next step phase-in decisions need to based on adaptive data-driven risk analyses. Adaptive: allows flexibility as new information is gained, Data-driven: effort is taken to identify what questions need to be answered and what data is needed to answer those questions. Structured data acquisition and continuous monitoring and analysis of the data follows. Risk Analysis: data informed risks are determined and weighted. Companion mitigation strategies are developed to reduce risk. Appropriate action is taken and the process starts anew. Politics is absent, or at least absent from the grown-ups table where the work gets done.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
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Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Exactly this. My wife is high-risk due to a severe case of pneumonia several years ago. How many jobs is your wife worth? How about your premature infant? Our war veterans?
This is just such a stupid conversation to have imo. Its more than just a few thousand old people at risk.
Trump is a poor leader, but he isn't a madman, and certainly not at that level.If I’m reading this correctly, your argument is a madman hasn’t risen to power?
Careful, Bobby. Don’t get yourself suspended. We need you in the Lions thread.If I’m reading this correctly, your argument is a madman hasn’t risen to power?
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moleculo
Footballguy
When we look back at this in 5 years, how many of those 220 people will have new jobs?
Conversely, how many of the 60-80k people who have died will come back to life?
Jobs are temporary. Fatalities are not.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Not to mention the arbitrary cutoff at age 70. Dr. Fauci is 80. I'd say he's still pretty useful.
It's a very tough situation. It spreads so quickly, with no symptoms, how do you stop it while maintaining a functioning economy? There really is no good answer. You open the economy up, and let this thing run rampant, who knows how many people die.
Here in Canada, my gf and I get $4k a month total. It is enough to cover our living expenses. Our covid numbers are also quite good relative to other countries(knock on wood). Maybe you guys should try this socialism thing.
Here in Canada, my gf and I get $4k a month total. It is enough to cover our living expenses. Our covid numbers are also quite good relative to other countries(knock on wood). Maybe you guys should try this socialism thing.
Death Bytes
Footballguy
Lockdowns aren't a cure. They are a shelter from the pandemic. The same as evacuation orders are not a cure to a hurricane, they are a shelter from it.
If the hurricane is still on top of us, ending the evacuation order isn't going to restore the economy. Nor will ending the lockdown in a pandemic if we still don't have ways to fight the virus.
If the hurricane is still on top of us, ending the evacuation order isn't going to restore the economy. Nor will ending the lockdown in a pandemic if we still don't have ways to fight the virus.
This is like saying you have to pick between saving your father or driving a car. That is not how life works. We live our lives and we take risks every day. If we are unwilling to take calculated risks to enjoy life to the fullest, why bother? We are living life in a bubble to protect our loved ones against some long shot risk. We can't shut down to protect 0.03 percent of the population. People die everyday, that is reality.
Death Bytes
Footballguy
When the rest of the world is doing the same, this is very true. It's when one country is experiencing major forces in deflation that the rest of the world is not that massive currency printing can be risky for them.
There is no risk for the US to be in massive currency printing mode right now. Zero. Zilch. NADA!
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Looking back most of the people we are trying to save will be dead in five years regardless.
I am curious:
Lets say you and 99 other people are waiting to board an airplane, when the flight crew announces that in order to take-off, 1 random passenger will be sacrificed to the Control Tower gods, everyone else will proceed to the destination normally.
Do you get on the plane?
What if its 2 passengers to be sacrificed? 3?
I think the answer should depend on how important it is to get to your destination, and whether you can get to your destination by other (slower) means.
Lets say you and 99 other people are waiting to board an airplane, when the flight crew announces that in order to take-off, 1 random passenger will be sacrificed to the Control Tower gods, everyone else will proceed to the destination normally.
Do you get on the plane?
What if its 2 passengers to be sacrificed? 3?
I think the answer should depend on how important it is to get to your destination, and whether you can get to your destination by other (slower) means.
eurotrashman
Footballguy
And you see Ruth’s Chris get $20 million as a publicly traded company with $96 million in the bank and thousands and thousands of smaller businesses are being shut out and will close their doors.
dkp993
Footballguy
Zigg is exactly right here (minus the socialism part
) and the 100k number is likely very very low. This thing is killing 2000 people a day right now(!) and we’ve undertaken the most extreme precautions any of us have ever seen. The way this things spreads the numbers would be mind boggling, and that’s not even factoring in what would have happened to our hospitals and the ancillary death that would have resulted as well. ( @supermike80 - you asked a good question, the counterpoint to that is in my last sentence.) Unfortunately there are no good answers here, only complete #### ones. We need to be much better prepared for this when, not if, it happens again.
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Amused to Death
Footballguy
And how do you do that when I would be coming into contact with countless infected people a day? Do I stay away from my family?
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Money will come back. Those movers and shakers that still turn the wheel of money have the money to turn the wheel.
The General
Footballguy
The lockdown bought us time.
Time to see what the hell was going to happen, time to see how we could treat people, how the HC system could handle a surge in sick people, how the virus would pass through with our way of life, how people would react, how our food delivery system would handle this.
We didn’t know what would happen. A month and half later we have a better idea.
Now we get to work how we ease back into things and how that works, but we have a lot more information and some level of confidence now that the month and a half bought us.
This calculating deaths worth the risk stuff is pretty ####ed up. Bunch of Vulcans in here. Oh yeah by the way you have no idea how bad it could have been if we didn’t lock everyone away for a month.
Time to see what the hell was going to happen, time to see how we could treat people, how the HC system could handle a surge in sick people, how the virus would pass through with our way of life, how people would react, how our food delivery system would handle this.
We didn’t know what would happen. A month and half later we have a better idea.
Now we get to work how we ease back into things and how that works, but we have a lot more information and some level of confidence now that the month and a half bought us.
This calculating deaths worth the risk stuff is pretty ####ed up. Bunch of Vulcans in here. Oh yeah by the way you have no idea how bad it could have been if we didn’t lock everyone away for a month.
We do that every time we board a plane. Except the reality is more than 1 billion people fly each year, and 100 or so die. Most people look at the risk and accept it.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
is opening up and then getting hit with a second wave, which would then force us to go back into quarantine, better or worse than staying in quarantine until more data is mined.
At the end, I think the inability to push mass testing will be the biggest blunder of Trumps on this one.
Extreme precautions? Go to your local Lowe's or Menards and you will see full parking lots with only a fraction of the people wearing masksZigg is exactly right here (minus the socialism part
We need to be much better prepared for this when, not if, it happens again.
moleculo
Footballguy
I favor individual freedom in choosing how to live one's life and accepting the associated risks. I do not believe we should live our lives with zero tolerance for risk.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
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dkp993
Footballguy
It can’t be both Jon. Either we are wrecking the economy and doing massive damage or we are not taking extreme measures? Which is it?
Answering my rhetorical question it is clearly the latter, whether it could’ve been more extreme or not, it’s exactly as I said. The most extreme precautions any of us have ever seen.
Take the best practices I social distancing and protecting yourself. You don't have to come into contact with countless people. That is the price you pay and are willing to accept.
moleculo
Footballguy
But it is both. We are hurting the economy with targeted shutdowns of certain industries. You can't deny that 22 million new unemployment claims is hurting the economy. And the virus is still spreading, albeit at a slower rate.
You could say that about driving a car. When you drive you also put other people's life at risk. How do you live with yourself?
dkp993
Footballguy
Of course I’m not denying that it’s hurting the economy because I’m saying the measures are extreme that we are taking. How could it be hurting the economy if we were not taking extreme measures Jon? I don’t understand that line of thinking.
OK let me try this from a different angle. Have we ever done anything like this in our lifetimes before?
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I’m just saying it’s inspiring to see these patriots out there carrying on the American tradition of protest in the face of adversity
it’s like MLK with an AR-15 strapped on
(no round chambered & with the safety on of course)
who needs testing tracing and treatment when you have #mealteam6 leading the charge?
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