has this ever happened to anyone else? (1 Viewer)

[bigcoch821]

I am sure this has happened before, but Hester fumbled on a kickoff return yesterday, and was in a teams lineup as a wide receiver. Our league states that any fumble is -2 points. We never had this be brought up before, and will probably make a change in the offseason to saying the player has to be on offense, but can any of you guys on here remember an instance when a player fumbled on special teams? The hester owner is going nuts saying he should be awarded 2 pts. I, being the commish already have said i cant change the rules midseason, obviously but would like a specific instance as to when this has happened before to shut him up because he thinks its absurd. thanks.

 

[Rounders]

I am sure this has happened before, but Hester fumbled on a kickoff return yesterday, and was in a teams lineup as a wide receiver. Our league states that any fumble is -2 points. We never had this be brought up before, and will probably make a change in the offseason to saying the player has to be on offense, but can any of you guys on here remember an instance when a player fumbled on special teams? The hester owner is going nuts saying he should be awarded 2 pts. I, being the commish already have said i cant change the rules midseason, obviously but would like a specific instance as to when this has happened before to shut him up because he thinks its absurd. thanks.

IIRC I believe Hester fumbled on a kickoff return the week he was injured, week 4? week 5? See how it was scored then and apply the same scoring.

 

[Jayrod]

I am sure this has happened before, but Hester fumbled on a kickoff return yesterday, and was in a teams lineup as a wide receiver. Our league states that any fumble is -2 points. We never had this be brought up before, and will probably make a change in the offseason to saying the player has to be on offense, but can any of you guys on here remember an instance when a player fumbled on special teams? The hester owner is going nuts saying he should be awarded 2 pts. I, being the commish already have said i cant change the rules midseason, obviously but would like a specific instance as to when this has happened before to shut him up because he thinks its absurd. thanks.

This happens regularly and almost all leagues count it against the player.

 

[bigcoch821]

i'll look into that, thanks. any other instances you can think of? i was thinking of maybe with mjd returning kicks, or koren robinson, or someone.

 

[poopdawg]

I think it should only apply if your league awards points for return yards/TDs. If not, it makes no sense to ding a player for fumbling if they cant be rewarded for returns.

 

[bleachercreacher]

If he had returned the kick for a TD would the owner have gotten the points? If so it's only fair that the fumble counts. If not I don't think the fumble should count.

 

[TommyGilmore]

Please answer the following: if Hester scores a kick return TD, who gets the points? The D/ST only? Hester only? Both? If the answer is "both" or "Hester", then you should also give Hester -2 for the fumble.

 

[skillz]

If he had returned the kick for a TD would the owner have gotten the points? If so it's only fair that the fumble counts. If not I don't think the fumble should count.

This is how our league does it too. Player only loses points on the fumble if he is eligible for getting points for the kickoff/punt return. Since we don't count those points, the fumble doesn't cause a loss of points. The issue first came up in our league back in 2004 when Deion Branch lost a fumble on a punt return. Ever since then, we have applied the rule as I have stated above.

 

[bigcoch821]

to answer the above questions...just the D/ST.

i know this is kind of lame, and unfair but i'm just trying to find an instance in which it has happened before, so i can decide how to make a ruling. because our rule states if you fumble, its -2 it doesnt say "if you're on offense" it just says if they fumble. i just, as commish, didnt think it was fiar to change the rule midseason, but if there is not another instance in which it has happened i guess there is no precedent, and could make the deicision to give him his two points back.

 

[bigcoch821]

skillz-

do you remember if you subtracted the 2 from branch then, or did you wait til the following year? i dont think it would make a big difference but the game in question could be decided by it hes up by 5 vs. suisham tonite..and 2 pts is a big deal when youre playing vs. a kicker

 

[skillz]

skillz-do you remember if you subtracted the 2 from branch then, or did you wait til the following year? i dont think it would make a big difference but the game in question could be decided by it hes up by 5 vs. suisham tonite..and 2 pts is a big deal when youre playing vs. a kicker

He didn't lose any points for the fumble. I remember the situation because it was a huge deal. If Branch lost two points it would have changed the result of the game. We all discussed it as a league and decided that since he was not eligible for getting any points on the play, he shouldn't be penalized for the lost fumble. We didn't wait until next year b/c in our mind the decision wasn't a rule change but an interpretation of how our existing rules are applied. Our commish was actually a stand up guy on the whole thing since he came out on the short end of the decision. We actually have a guy that started Hester this week who asked why CBS gave him minus 2 points for the fumble. Our commish went in to override the scoring error so that his score reflects how our league does things.

 

[puckalicious]

skillz-do you remember if you subtracted the 2 from branch then, or did you wait til the following year? i dont think it would make a big difference but the game in question could be decided by it hes up by 5 vs. suisham tonite..and 2 pts is a big deal when youre playing vs. a kicker

He didn't lose any points for the fumble. I remember the situation because it was a huge deal. If Branch lost two points it would have changed the result of the game. We all discussed it as a league and decided that since he was not eligible for getting any points on the play, he shouldn't be penalized for the lost fumble. We didn't wait until next year b/c in our mind the decision wasn't a rule change but an interpretation of how our existing rules are applied. Our commish was actually a stand up guy on the whole thing since he came out on the short end of the decision. We actually have a guy that started Hester this week who asked why CBS gave him minus 2 points for the fumble. Our commish went in to override the scoring error so that his score reflects how our league does things.

Ditto here. We have all Def/ST scoring for the team only, including -2 pts for fumbles and the +2 points for the opposing ST fumble recovery if it happens. Since CBS does not have an option to automatically score this way, I go in and override the final scores when needed. It's only decided the outcome of a game once in the last 4 years I think, so the commish doesn't even adjust the scoring unless somebody brings it up.But whenever I lose by a point or two, the first thing I do is comb through the play-by-play to see if this is the case and maybe I get the win out of it.

 

[garyd]

i'll look into that, thanks. any other instances you can think of? i was thinking of maybe with mjd returning kicks, or koren robinson, or someone.

A quick check of kick return stats on NFL.com shows that Hester also has a fumbled punt return this year, and Leon Washington, Eddie Royal, DeSean Jackson and Ted Ginn also have fumbled kicks. Stats don't list when it happened, but there's a start if you want to dig further.

 

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

to answer the above questions...just the D/ST.i know this is kind of lame, and unfair but i'm just trying to find an instance in which it has happened before, so i can decide how to make a ruling. because our rule states if you fumble, its -2 it doesnt say "if you're on offense" it just says if they fumble. i just, as commish, didnt think it was fiar to change the rule midseason, but if there is not another instance in which it has happened i guess there is no precedent, and could make the deicision to give him his two points back.

Give him back his 2 pts. If he can't score off of Hester returning kicks... then he can't be penalized for something that happens during those returns either. Doesn't make any sense. In your league... Hester doesn't even count as an individual player during his returns. He is just part of Bears D/ST. They should either lose the 2 pts... or nobody does. You can't go take 2 pts from someone who had nothing to gain on the play.

 

[renesauz]

Most leagues would leave the -2 pts. in not because it's fair, but because it's easier. What it really comes down to is automatic scoring. There is no way the computer can differentiate between a fumble on a return or on an offensive play.

This is one of those unfortunate scenarios that are usually overlooked in league bylaws. If it changes the outcome of a game, the best thing to do would be to put it to a league vote, as neither answer is completely fair to those in question if it did. If it doesn't change the outcome, then leave the score as is for now, but initiate an immediate rules revision to cover the situation in the future.

If you decide to give the 2 points back, make sure you put the onus on the league members for requesting the points in a tmiely manner should a similar situation occur in the future. You as commish can't be expected to review every fumble in every game to determine whether it counts or not.

 

[inca911]

From our rules:

Special Teams play is not counted as Offensive Scoring for any individual player (e.g., Devin Hester) , and fake/botched punts and field goals are not considered part of Special Teams scoring, only regular Offensive Scoring.

You don't vote on this type of thing. The Commissioner interprets the rules and then corrects them to prevent any question in the future.

You might also want to add a statute of limitations for scoring changes, such as:

Scoring may be corrected if all of the following criteria are met:

1. The NFL officially changes the statistics

2. The issue is brought to the commissioner's attention prior the kickoff of the week following the correction.

 

[Chaka]

Does the Hester owner get credit if Hester scores a touchdown on a kickoff? If so then tell him to shut his piehole. If not give him his two points back.

 

[daddo39]

If you don't give the TD pts a guy scores as a returner then he shouldn't be penalized for a turnover on special teams. That's how we score it anyway.

 

[glumpy]

I think it should only apply if your league awards points for return yards/TDs. If not, it makes no sense to ding a player for fumbling if they cant be rewarded for returns.

 

[Twilight]

I say quit whining about it. If you are worried about returners fumbling, then don't draft/start any returners. There are plenty of WRs out there that you can avoid them if you are concerned.

 

[Weiner Dog]

to answer the above questions...just the D/ST.i know this is kind of lame, and unfair but i'm just trying to find an instance in which it has happened before, so i can decide how to make a ruling. because our rule states if you fumble, its -2 it doesnt say "if you're on offense" it just says if they fumble. i just, as commish, didnt think it was fiar to change the rule midseason, but if there is not another instance in which it has happened i guess there is no precedent, and could make the deicision to give him his two points back.

Give him back his 2 pts. If he can't score off of Hester returning kicks... then he can't be penalized for something that happens during those returns either. Doesn't make any sense. In your league... Hester doesn't even count as an individual player during his returns. He is just part of Bears D/ST. They should either lose the 2 pts... or nobody does. You can't go take 2 pts from someone who had nothing to gain on the play.

Reading between the lines, you have a bias regarding the removal of the negative scoring for the fumble. You ask for everybody's opinion...everybody says give the guy his 2 pts back since Hester is not awarded the positives of a KO return for TD...you then respond changes cannot be made mid-season. Not cool.