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HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners (6 Viewers)

Gr00vus said:
If Jon's dad is Rheagar, and Rheagar and Lyanna got married (don't know how polygamy sells in Westeros) then Jon's the rightful heir to the whole kingdom. He could then get cajoled into (yet again) going against his own devices by his Northern banner men who would probably not want to submit to Danaerys and force Jon to fight for the crown or at least fight to retain autonomy of the North. Littlefinger probably encourages Jon to do this in hopes he gets killed, then he can continue with operation marry Sansa as she'd inherit the north.

Just trying to figure out how things don't go smoothly straight into the battle of five armies battle between the zombies and the rest of Westeros.

Maybe the Valyrian volcanoes erupt while Danaerys is sailing west and wipe out some of her fleet. Or, more obviously, Euron shows up with his 1000 ships and fights her fleet if/when he gets rebuffed. She's got it too easy right now.
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She should have it pretty easy. Her dragons aren't as big as when the Targs first conquered/united Westeros - but those Targs didn't have much of an army either. All they really needed was 3 dragons. I don't think there will be much of an issue taking Westeros - holding it will be more difficult. 

 
sn0mm1s said:
She should have it pretty easy. Her dragons aren't as big as when the Targs first conquered/united Westeros - but those Targs didn't have much of an army either. All they really needed was 3 dragons. I don't think there will be much of an issue taking Westeros - holding it will be more difficult. 
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That's my point. The way things are set up now, she's looking at a cake walk to retake the throne, or at least all the kingdom south of the Stark sphere of influence. Doesn't seem like Martin's style to have it go down that way. But they're running out of episodes, so maybe that is how it goes down.

 
Eh. Pretty sure you're right in predicting that Daenerys' forces will suffer heavy casualties at the hands of Euron's fleet, plus storms or maybe even disaster in Valyria. From a narrative standpoint, it makes no sense for her to be an unstoppable force from the get-go.

 
Abrantes said:
Eh. Pretty sure you're right in predicting that Daenerys' forces will suffer heavy casualties at the hands of Euron's fleet, plus storms or maybe even disaster in Valyria. From a narrative standpoint, it makes no sense for her to be an unstoppable force from the get-go.
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She would only be unstoppable as far as Westerosi goes.  They are going to need everyone they can to defeat the white walkers.

 
I don't think the Dothraki hoard will survive either. Between the sail west and the worst winter in ages approaching, they're in for a rough time.

 
With Jon being a Targaryen, is he supposed to be immune to fire like Dani?

He did get burned when defending the Lord Commander from undeads early on.

Or have I completely missed something?

Of course, her parents were both Targaryen, and only one of his was.  hmm.

 
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Mjolnirs said:
With Jon being a Targaryen, is he supposed to be immune to fire like Dani?

He did get burned when defending the Lord Commander from undeads early on.

Or have I completely missed something?

Of course, her parents were both Targaryen, and only one of his was.  hmm.
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He's not pure Targaryen.  He's a half-breed at best.

 
I don't know about in the show, but Martin said in reference to the books that Dany being unburnt is a unique thing to her and her dragons being born - a one shot deal

 
Uruk-Hai said:
No, it doesn't.

Just saying that show-Dany could still be unique in this regard; show-Jon may not be. Or maybe he is, too. They're so far off the grid on background stuff now - who knows?
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I'd be surprised if it applies to anybody but her.  As bloodlines are concerned, Viserys had as much reason to be like her as anybody, and we know how that turned out.

"He was no dragon. Fire cannot kill a dragon."

 
I'm not smart enough to follow the show's logic on their world-building. And, to be honest, I don't know that the show cares all that much about logic all day, every day. In fact, I think we think more about this kind of stuff than they do. The books are a different story, though I still think the hard-core fandom worries more about some things than Martin himself ever thought of trying to justify.

 
Just watched it last night.  I was kind of shocked Margery died.  Boy that Shame nun sure has a rough go in front of her being Gregor's plaything.  Can't think of a fate much worse than that.  

Arya coming back was epic but she was pretty #######g hot as a serving wench.  Glad Frey bit the big one.  Does Jaime even know he's dead?  Is Jaime going to shrug off Tommen's death like Cersei did?

 
Finally had a night off and was able to watch. Stunned at how many fairly significant characters got killed in a single episode! I suppose it's possible, though highly unlikely, that Maergery somehow got out.

As much as I loved it though, they did a very poor job of suggesting time passing...and some not-insignificant time had to pass for the queen of thorns to make it to Dorne AND know what happened in King's landing, for Varys to show up in Dorne AND THEN be with Dany on the ship. A little too much time compression going on.

That's nit-picking though...best show ever.

 
I agree on the time thing.  With Varys especially.  I thought it was a bit gratuitous as well to have Knoght of the Flowers get his head carved only to blow up without doing anything.  What's the point of that.  I'd have rather seen Jaime and Cerseis first conversation when he rolled into kings landing .  

He does not look pleased.  But he gives no ####s for anyone besides Cersei.  

 
I'm not convinced that James entire speech wasn't just a show to get Edmure to crack.  It may have been irony when he first showed up at the siege and made that crack about threats that you're not prepared to carry out, just to set up Edmure buying it later.

 
I'm sure there's some thread out there already proposing/debunking this, but the thought occurred to me, what if the whole Tyrion/cuckold thing is backwards? Given how crazy Cersei seems to be (and Jamie has a little crazy in him too, even though losing his hand has mellowed him out some), what if Cersei/Jamie are Aerys's kids and Tyrion is the only legit child of Tywin. That would be so Martin. Jamie ends up stabbing his real father in the back, Tyrion kills his real father too, and Cersie takes up the crazy from her real father (who her brother and lover killed). It'd also put 2 more Targeryan siblings out there for Danaerys to hook up with.

 
I just finished up the first book - takeaways...

1. They did a pretty damn phenomenal job of adapting the book to the show.  It's been a few years since I've watched season 1, but the first book follows pretty closely to how I remember it. 

2. The one main difference I guess would be that the direwolves get a lot more coverage in the book. Like, a lot more. In the show they seem almost an afterthought, but they are very clearly focal points in the book. 

3.  If I hadn't seen the show, I think I would have had a hard time following all of the names. Having seen the show I was able to focus on the important characters and not get caught up in the 200? 250? different named characters. 

Onto book 2. (I bought the set of 5 paperbacks on Amazon for like $22 awhile back). 

 
Gr00vus said:
I'm sure there's some thread out there already proposing/debunking this, but the thought occurred to me, what if the whole Tyrion/cuckold thing is backwards? Given how crazy Cersei seems to be (and Jamie has a little crazy in him too, even though losing his hand has mellowed him out some), what if Cersei/Jamie are Aerys's kids and Tyrion is the only legit child of Tywin. That would be so Martin. Jamie ends up stabbing his real father in the back, Tyrion kills his real father too, and Cersie takes up the crazy from her real father (who her brother and lover killed). It'd also put 2 more Targeryan siblings out there for Danaerys to hook up with.
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I don't think there is anything really debunking the theory.

The World of Ice and Fire book tells us that Joanna was living at Casterly Rock when the twins were conceived, but Tywin was the Hand of the King at the time and living in Kings Landing.  So, either he traveled home or she traveled to Kings Landing(where Aerys could've slept with her).  So, while it makes it more unlikely, it still doesn't truly debunk it.

I personally don't think it was likely.  We see so many mentions of moon's tea or some sort of abortificant in the story.  Given the evidence that Joanna and Tywin truly loved each other I can't see her willingly sleeping with Aerys.  So, if she were raped by him I would expect her to at least take an abortificant to ensure that she doesn't bear his children.  I mean it could be possible, but it just seems unlikely to me.

 
encaitar said:
I don't think there is anything really debunking the theory.

The World of Ice and Fire book tells us that Joanna was living at Casterly Rock when the twins were conceived, but Tywin was the Hand of the King at the time and living in Kings Landing.  So, either he traveled home or she traveled to Kings Landing(where Aerys could've slept with her).  So, while it makes it more unlikely, it still doesn't truly debunk it.

I personally don't think it was likely.  We see so many mentions of moon's tea or some sort of abortificant in the story.  Given the evidence that Joanna and Tywin truly loved each other I can't see her willingly sleeping with Aerys.  So, if she were raped by him I would expect her to at least take an abortificant to ensure that she doesn't bear his children.  I mean it could be possible, but it just seems unlikely to me.
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What evidence? I'm not trying to be snarky, I just can't recall the details. I have a vague recollection that Tywin really loved Joanna. I don't remember anything giving her point of view on it.

 
JerseyToughGuys said:
tywin's hatred for tyrion
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Like I said, it's pretty clear Tywin really loved Joanna. But I don't remember anything that really gave her perspective on their relationship. Given that Aerys was a total creeper, it's probably unlikely she was into Aeyrs though.

 
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Gr00vus said:
Like I said, it's pretty clear Tywin really loved Joanna. But I don't remember anything that really gave her perspective on their relationship. Given that Aerys was a total creeper, it's probably unlikely she was into Aeyrs though.
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you are correct, no Mrs. Lannister POV and that's probably why it would be bizarre to take the story there (although I suppose they already have with L+R = J)

 
Gr00vus said:
I thought the Tyrion isn't Tywin's son idea had some traction already.
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I've always thought it was a stretch. You can't overuse stuff like that and if it pops back up with Tyrion it dumbs down the Jon thing a bit imo.

I cannot see HBO going down that road at this point (Martin - or Martin's replacement - might)

 
And while we're at it, http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Joanna_Lannister

Joanna went to King's Landing in 259 AC, for the coronation of King Jaehaerys II Targaryen, and would remain as a lady-in-waiting for the future queen, Princess Rhaella Targaryen. There are rumours that Joanna had given her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of Jaehaerys' coronation, and briefly became Aerys' paramour after he ascended the throne himself. However, Grand Maester Pycelle insists these tales are baseless, as Tywin would not have married Joanna if they were true, "for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting on another man's leavings."

Married life

Joanna married her first cousin, Tywin, in 263 AC in a lavish ceremony in the Great Sept of Baelor. On their wedding day, Tywin smiled, a very rare occurrence. However at the wedding feast, Aerys drunkenly japed about how it was a pity the first night tradition was banned, and he took certain "unwonted liberties" with Joanna in the bedding ritual when the men at the feast had to disrobe the bride.

Not long thereafter, Joanna was dismissed by Queen Rhaella from her service in King's Landing. While Queen Rhaella turned a blind eye towards most of her husband's infidelities, she did not approve when it concerned one of her own "ladies." (Joanna was one of many ladies to be sent away from court.) She departed for Casterly Rock at once, and seldom visited King's Landing afterwards.

Joanna's marriage to Tywin was reportedly a happy one. Joanna became Tywin's trusted counselor and companion. Her influence on her husband was such that people would say that Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms as Hand of the King, "but was ruled at home by his lady wife."

In 266 AC, Joanna gave birth to Cersei and Jaime, with Tywin present. King Aerys ordered Tywin to bring Joanna and the children to King's Landing when the children were old enough to travel, but Lord Tytos Lannister died before this could occur. Instead, Tywin, Aerys, Prince Rhaegar, and half the court went to the Westerlands in 267 AC, where they would remain for most of next year.

Joanna did attend the anniversary tourney in King's Landing in 272 AC, held to celebrate King Aerys' tenth year on the throne. There, King Aerys insulted Joanna, by asking her if nursing her children had ruined her breasts. Tywin, who was also present, was angered, and tried to resign as Hand of the King the next day, but King Aerys refused.

At some point within the next year, Joanna's servant caught Jaime and Cersei together, engaged in some kind of sexual activity. Joanna sent the maid away, moved Jaime's chamber to the other side of the castle, and put a guard outside of Cersei's chamber. She then warned her twins that they must never do such a thing again, or else she would be forced to tell their father. But it was not long thereafter, in 273 AC, that Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion.
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So I was wrong about her not being into Aerys, at least initially.

 
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JerseyToughGuys said:
Aerys II Targaryn
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pretty amazing summary here. There were certainly opportunities.

The relationship between Aerys and Tywin was always complicated. When he was still a prince, Aerys had developed a crush on Joanna Lannister who was to marry her cousin Tywin. Aerys was present at the wedding in 263 AC and drank too much during the feast, leading to him joking that it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished and to taking certain liberties during the bedding. It is said that Tywin did not forget Aerys's behavior.[10][4]

Aerys's marriage to his younger sister, Rhaella, was less happy than Tywin's. Aerys was known to keep many mistresses, and whilst Rhaella turned a blind eye to her husband's infidelities, she objected heavily against "turning my ladies into whores". In 263 AC, Lady Joanna Lannister was dismissed by Rhaella, shortly after having married Lord Tywin. Whilst no official reason was given for Joanna's abrupt dismissal, she was not the first of Rhaella's ladies to be dismissed in this fashion, nor was she the last.[4]
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I think it's 99% that Tyrion is a Targaryn.  Those dragons on the show confirmed it imo when he unchained them.

 
To @JerseyToughGuys point though, the show really hasn't made an issue out of the Lannister kids' parentage except I think for one throwaway "if you really are my son" line that Tywin delivered to Tyrion. So it would be pretty shoddy to spring that on people in the last 13 episodes.

 
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I wonder if Varys knows?  Bran may see it eventually.  Any other old dudes left on the show?

Old dudes dropping Like flies lately fwiw.

 
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