2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
You got hosed. Mine reads "FREE".Sweet J said:
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Healing And Moving Forward - Thoughts? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
gianmarco
Footballguy
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Posting trash from Twitter seems to go against the very nature of this thread. It will be hard to move forward if we start posting every awful thing we see on Twitter.
I wonder if one way we move forward is not going along with the mocking.
I have a lot of Anti Trump folks in my twitter feed and it was full today with guys like Rex Chapman and his million followers retweeting the "we the people" woman video driving with her pro Trump rant. She's an easy target as she's saying wild stuff and cursing and yelling and has an accent. I just caught a second of it but it seems like she's saying ridiculous stuff. It's getting tons of retweets with the
and now new videos are coming out even more mocking her. It's pure trolling.
I get it that people love to mock others. Especially when they're saying stuff like that. But I wonder if those people realize the mocking just deepens the division. My guess is they realize this as I assume they're intelligent people.
I wonder if one small way we help reunite and heal is just not troll like that. Or hold off on contributing or encouraging the trolling.
I have a lot of Anti Trump folks in my twitter feed and it was full today with guys like Rex Chapman and his million followers retweeting the "we the people" woman video driving with her pro Trump rant. She's an easy target as she's saying wild stuff and cursing and yelling and has an accent. I just caught a second of it but it seems like she's saying ridiculous stuff. It's getting tons of retweets with the
and now new videos are coming out even more mocking her. It's pure trolling. I get it that people love to mock others. Especially when they're saying stuff like that. But I wonder if those people realize the mocking just deepens the division. My guess is they realize this as I assume they're intelligent people.
I wonder if one small way we help reunite and heal is just not troll like that. Or hold off on contributing or encouraging the trolling.
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To add, I get it. I've been guilty myself of posting or giving air to stuff that is ridiculous. It just hit me with Chapman today how divisive this kind of thing is.
TheMagus
Footballguy
I completely agree that picking out one unstable person on social media and blasting them as if they are the voice of an established party and represent 10s of millions of people in this country is really bad and is eroding discourse. And I think this is the predominant problem we are facing on the healing front. Social media just amplifies the loudest voices and many times those are not the voices that should be amplified. I personally posted in this thread that I wasn't sure healing could be possible in the world of social media we live in. And I'm not sure what the future holds in this new reality.I wonder if one way we move forward is not going along with the mocking.
I have a lot of Anti Trump folks in my twitter feed and it was full today with guys like Rex Chapman and his million followers retweeting the "we the people" woman video driving with her pro Trump rant. She's an easy target as she's saying wild stuff and cursing and yelling and has an accent. I just caught a second of it but it seems like she's saying ridiculous stuff. It's getting tons of retweets with the
I get it that people love to mock others. Especially when they're saying stuff like that. But I wonder if those people realize the mocking just deepens the division. My guess is they realize this as I assume they're intelligent people.
I wonder if one small way we help reunite and heal is just not troll like that. Or hold off on contributing or encouraging the trolling.
I do wonder though, Joe, how your conservative friends that you speak of often feel about this. You have started a few threads here about things your conservative friends have sent you and almost made it sound like they were asking you to justify what others said because you are "the left." The Jane Fonda thread comes to mind where I was honestly confused why friends would send that to a friend who held different political beliefs because Jane Fonda does not speak for "our side" in any tangible reality. I'm not trying to whatabout this, but I have found it interesting that you want "our side" to do better and be better people but don't necessarily recognize when you are held to ridiculous standards and it seems like you feel you have to explain or be responsible for people behaving badly on the left, no matter who they are. I think what I am saying is that I have felt like in some posts you've made here that your friends were mocking you for being a Democrat. You recognize this isn't good. Do you push back on them or do your close friends recognize that it isn't really productive to do this also?
Thanks. I always want "my" side to better. I'm way less concerned about "their" side as I feel I have even less say in that.
There's also the reality much of the responsibility for being cool falls on the winner. Losing sucks. It's the winner who is called to extend grace in my opinion. In 2020, that's my side.
My conservative friends often use me as their sounding board. I've been happy that my liberal friends use me too for this. One liberal friend asked me the other day, "Ok, so you're my rational Christian friend..."
I wouldn't say my friends "mock" me for voting Democratic. But they give me a friendly hard time. I get plenty of the "Cuomo told families not to travel for Thanksgiving but then invited his elderly mother to travel for Thanksgiving" shots and such. But it's more friendly. It's not really my style as a friend to jab that much but I'll send them The Andy Stanley (popular Christian pastor) talks politics articles. Overall, it's excellent. I learn a lot from them and I think they learn from me. The big underlying factor and foundation is we love each other first. The politics are second. But that's also based on a 20 year friendship with these guys. That doesn't scale. So it's a thing.
Bottom line, I do think we'll all do much better in healing and moving forward if we can lay off the mocking and trolling. I think we do a pretty good job with that here. But social media at scale is a different thing.
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Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Mocking certainly won’t help the situation. Nor will name-calling.I wonder if one way we move forward is not going along with the mocking.
I have a lot of Anti Trump folks in my twitter feed and it was full today with guys like Rex Chapman and his million followers retweeting the "we the people" woman video driving with her pro Trump rant. She's an easy target as she's saying wild stuff and cursing and yelling and has an accent. I just caught a second of it but it seems like she's saying ridiculous stuff. It's getting tons of retweets with the
I get it that people love to mock others. Especially when they're saying stuff like that. But I wonder if those people realize the mocking just deepens the division. My guess is they realize this as I assume they're intelligent people.
I wonder if one small way we help reunite and heal is just not troll like that. Or hold off on contributing or encouraging the trolling.
TBH though, the real challenge is disagreeing respectfully, when the opposition’s stance includes conspiracy theories which are unsubstantiated and divisive, at the minimum.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Joe, the bolded, especially the last three words, really hits the nail on the head as to why I'm skeptical this particular problem can be solved.
As to the final paragraph above, yes, we can all do our own little part to try to be more gracious and understanding. I'll just say, I get where you're coming from, here, but the reality is, much like many problems, individuals aren't going to make much difference in the grand scheme of things. Our leaders with a large voice, politicians and media personalities, need to be on board. I'll also suggest it's a two-way street. Me (or Joe Biden) earnestly reaching out to Joe pro-Trump (or Devin Nunes) isn't enough (and vice-versa). Joe pro-Trump (or Devin Nunes) need to be gracious enough to hear me out, at least in a wait-and-see mode if not something more (and vice-versa).
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Joe:I wonder if one way we move forward is not going along with the mocking.
I have a lot of Anti Trump folks in my twitter feed and it was full today with guys like Rex Chapman and his million followers retweeting the "we the people" woman video driving with her pro Trump rant. She's an easy target as she's saying wild stuff and cursing and yelling and has an accent. I just caught a second of it but it seems like she's saying ridiculous stuff. It's getting tons of retweets with the
I get it that people love to mock others. Especially when they're saying stuff like that. But I wonder if those people realize the mocking just deepens the division. My guess is they realize this as I assume they're intelligent people.
I wonder if one small way we help reunite and heal is just not troll like that. Or hold off on contributing or encouraging the trolling.
She's driving her car on a non empty road in daylight. She had to mentally choose to do what she did, and then, make sure her phone was mounted so she could use it while driving, make sure it was pointed at her to record, locate and tap the record button on the phones camera, ensure the camera was facing her and not the dashboard, hit the record button, drive her car, pay attention to any number of dozens of traffic rules and other cars, continuously look at the camera, and then spread her nonsense.
This wasn't someone that was on video in the middle of a conversation and taken out of context.
This wasn't someone asking a question out of genuine curiosity and wanting to learn.
This was someone who purposely and with intent did act in such a way as to make sure her opinion was shared with others, without desire to learn, without desire for self awareness and without desire to understand.
She was purposeful in exactly what she did and said. In an open speech electorate she is going to get mocked. Incessantly. And in that arena alone, she deserves it for doing while driving for goodness sake.
She is the person that needs to move towards others. We can all take as many steps towards her that we want or can, but if she keeps backing up like that....
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Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Read this a couple of years ago. Then I watched Social Dilemma. Hardly ever go on Twitter since.I wonder if one way we move forward is not going along with the mocking.
I have a lot of Anti Trump folks in my twitter feed and it was full today with guys like Rex Chapman and his million followers retweeting the "we the people" woman video driving with her pro Trump rant. She's an easy target as she's saying wild stuff and cursing and yelling and has an accent. I just caught a second of it but it seems like she's saying ridiculous stuff. It's getting tons of retweets with the
I get it that people love to mock others. Especially when they're saying stuff like that. But I wonder if those people realize the mocking just deepens the division. My guess is they realize this as I assume they're intelligent people.
I wonder if one small way we help reunite and heal is just not troll like that. Or hold off on contributing or encouraging the trolling.
Twitter is a place where stupidity wins just by sheer numbers. If you are a sane and moderate person, and you want to gain popularity, followers, and RTs, you have to play by the rules of the mob. And that means is you have to get in the mud with the pigs.
Slowly, but continuously, you adopt their worst practices. You decide to fight “fire with fire,” which, in this case, means to be just like them. You prey over other users, ready to attack at their slightest mistake. Swears rapidly replace your sarcasm. Your wit is useless; you use plain and clear demeaning words. Your online experience becomes a relentless “search and destroy” for opinions, facts, and claims that are obviously wrong.
Twitter is a dog-eat-dog situation where your agility skills are worthless and what you need is a pair of fangs, two pairs of fast legs and a pack to join.
Now your worst self is out in the open. It’s like a “Walking Dead” situation where you think you ’re among the living people, and one day, you realize that you are as dead as it gets, walking, screaming, and retweeting at faceless others on your phone. You’re one of them now.
And then you know it’s time to quit.
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2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
Grateful I don't know what you are talking about in regards to that specific video. I can say in my diverse world I haven't seen any "spiking the ball" nonsense. I had many conversations with my anti-Trump friends that if Biden were to win it would be imperative to just move on so that hopefully so many strained relationships would begin to heal.I wonder if one way we move forward is not going along with the mocking.
I have a lot of Anti Trump folks in my twitter feed and it was full today with guys like Rex Chapman and his million followers retweeting the "we the people" woman video driving with her pro Trump rant. She's an easy target as she's saying wild stuff and cursing and yelling and has an accent. I just caught a second of it but it seems like she's saying ridiculous stuff. It's getting tons of retweets with the
I get it that people love to mock others. Especially when they're saying stuff like that. But I wonder if those people realize the mocking just deepens the division. My guess is they realize this as I assume they're intelligent people.
I wonder if one small way we help reunite and heal is just not troll like that. Or hold off on contributing or encouraging the trolling.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
I hear you Joe and then I see posts like this from powerful senators and I just can't...part of coming together is having leaders on both sides that want to. Frankly I haven't seen anything on the national level that would lead one to believe Republican's actually want to. That's different on the state and local levels, but when the biggest voices on the right are saying stuff like this, I'm just stupefied to think any real healing can occur.
https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1331238258509045761
I hear you @Rich Conway I think that's what worries me the most as well. Deep relationships just don't scale well.
I fear we're at a point where mocking those we disagree with and further dividing us is now the standard.
When I think about it, I think it comes down to "grace".
Meaning, yes the world says that person deserves to be mocked.
Showing grace means we don't give them the negative the world says they deserve. And we move forward towards healing.
I'm not confident at all we can do that. But I want to try.
Doug B
Footballguy
See, I disagree (
) with your read of why the "We the People" lady got mocked on Twitter. It's not because people disagree with her. Combining Yankee23Fan's and Da Guru's most recent posts above get more to the heart of the matter.
In your words, why do you think she's getting mocked?See, I disagree (
And bigger point, does she "deserve" to be mocked?
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Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
1. Because she went out of her way to be unprofessional and repugnant while putting lives in danger by videoing herself ranting about politics when she was literally driving past a school bus.
2. By the actual definition of the word - an object of derision- yeah, kind of. What she did was wrong. How did she did was dangerous. And not for nothing, but if you twitter at all she doubled down now that she is getting attention.
Mocked for what she said in the realm of free political speech? No. But by the same token, she doesn't get to spew that and expect that there will be no push back.
I know where you are coming from Joe. I really do. And you and I agree on just about everything when we start from our faith and not our vanity. But there are perfectly acceptable times to fight, disagree and challenge one another. Doing so isn't the sign of failure.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I guess the distinction Joe might be trying to make is between measured constructive disagreement (maybe even criticism) and mocking. I'd like to think the former is acceptable, where the later is long term counter productive (though it may feel good viscerally in the moment).
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Doug B
Footballguy
Succinctly -- for her actions and not for her beliefs. Those same beliefs** in a letter to the editor or on a blog won't bring on mocking.
With qualifications, yes. Twitter mockery is not too high a price to pay for her actions -- really, it's punishment-in-kind so long as the responses remain on Twitter. No doxxing, no people showing up at her house, no putting pressure on her employer ... IMHO that would all be out of bounds.
EDIT:
** Well, without the invectives.
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Thanks. We just radically disagree on her deserving punishment.Doug B said:
And to be fair, most of the world agrees with you. That's how it operates and in my opinion, it's a lot to do with where we are.
I'm going to stick to what I said above.
I think it comes down to "grace".
Meaning, yes the world says that person "deserves" to be mocked. Or even "punished".
Showing grace means we don't give them the negative the world says they deserve. And we move forward towards healing.
I'm not confident at all we can do that. But I want to try.
Doug B
Footballguy
Live-streaming herself while driving coupled with her manner of expression.
Admittedly ... the same beliefs expressed more calmly do not make compelling video. Accordingly, people don't mock, say, Cal Thomas's Twitter entries.
Doug B
Footballguy
Keep in mind that with the "We the People" lady ... you're not really talking about "the world" deciding to sanction her through mocking. She's getting mocked within Twitter's subculture -- in that particular arena, that's fair game. Twitter and the world are very different things.
EDIT: And when I say "fair game", I mean in the sense of "in the ground rules of the setting". To me, "mocking someone in Twitter" is fair in the same way as "citing factual information that pokes holes in someone's argument" is fair in buttoned-up political debate.
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dgreen
Footballguy
Scrolling through the comments on Rex Chapman's tweet, there are definitely some comments about her driving habits, but most don't focus on that.
I have a feeling that if she made a similar video going on a tirade against Trump, people would be saying how awesome it is. So I think her belief is a big part of it.
I agree a calm expression of these beliefs would not be receiving the same amount of reaction.
Sure. In many ways.
In this way of mocking, it's not that different than the world.
Certainly, the lack of, or the deliberate withholding of grace is pretty common in the ways of the world.
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BladeRunner
Footballguy
I'm sorry, Joe, but as you just found out you won't get healing from a lot on the left. They don't want healing - they want revenge and they want obedience. Revenge for an election they thought they should have won in 2016 (and have been treating people with different views like dirt every since) and obedience because their way is the ONLY way. Dissenting views are NOT permitted, especially after Trump.
Anyone looking at just posts from the PSF the last four years can see that, let alone Twitter, Facebook, Google (youtube, etc..) and other online forums.
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Doug B
Footballguy
Her belief is a big part of who, specifically, responds negatively/positively. But I think she gets enthusiastic mocking either way -- just different people would be doing the mocking and different people would be offering support.
The Commish
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
dgreen
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
If you say so....I see plenty of both "sides" behaving the way you describe. If one wants to argue quantity based on their biased anecdotes and/or personal perceptions go for it. There is more than enough of it on both "sides" for it to be considered a major issue...one might say two sides of the same coin.
dgreen
Footballguy
I haven't fully followed this thread; just kind of jumped in an out the last few weeks.
Have we discussed what healing even looks like? @Joe Bryant, I feel like you are setting the bar way too high to think we have healing. But, I also admittedly don't know what you're personal goal would be so maybe I'm wrong. Clearly, all mocking is never going away. We will always have a certain percentage of society who will mock others, show a lack of grace, and defend those positions as the right positions. So, what does healing look like? What would you need to see in order to say that we are healed?
Have we discussed what healing even looks like? @Joe Bryant, I feel like you are setting the bar way too high to think we have healing. But, I also admittedly don't know what you're personal goal would be so maybe I'm wrong. Clearly, all mocking is never going away. We will always have a certain percentage of society who will mock others, show a lack of grace, and defend those positions as the right positions. So, what does healing look like? What would you need to see in order to say that we are healed?
Doug B
Footballguy
Here's the way I conceive of how great the difference is between Twitter and "meatspace":
Take the same "We The People" lady. Put her in the checkout line at a grocery store, waiting to get rung up. Place a few liberals in line with her. In real life, no one really says anything, no one films a tirade, no one gets mocked, and everyone gets their groceries checked out and goes about their business.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Doug B
Footballguy
Joe was going off of something I posted -- speaking specifically of the "We the People" lady:
If "punishment" is too loaded of a term ... call it "social sanction", perhaps.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Time will tell with Biden but I didn't see any reaching out to the left from Mr. Trump over the past 4 years. He declared war on Democrats from day one and many of his supporters loved him for it.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
This.
One of the things I thought Trump would have done was leverage his "outsiderness" by threatening to go to, and work with, The Left if The Right didn't give him exactly what he wanted....now granted, he didn't have to threaten the Right on anything as they fell in line quickly....but he had nothing buy disdain for The Left day one.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
@Joe Bryant
We agree more than we disagree. Im the guy in another thread that said ignoring and attacking Trump supporters in flyover country is a bad idea because their world is changing too fast for them to keep up and they get vilified for it.
This was a crude loudmouthed New York North Jersey Im better than everyone else narcissist who is upset she isn't getting her way. Not the same group. I know way way too many people like her. Frankly, she is a rather perfect portrait of half the women in my family.
I have no problem showing grace. And she can say whatever she wants to say and I'd defend her right to say it. But context also matters. She could have killed someone while showing her filth. And that becomes a problem.
We agree more than we disagree. Im the guy in another thread that said ignoring and attacking Trump supporters in flyover country is a bad idea because their world is changing too fast for them to keep up and they get vilified for it.
This was a crude loudmouthed New York North Jersey Im better than everyone else narcissist who is upset she isn't getting her way. Not the same group. I know way way too many people like her. Frankly, she is a rather perfect portrait of half the women in my family.
I have no problem showing grace. And she can say whatever she wants to say and I'd defend her right to say it. But context also matters. She could have killed someone while showing her filth. And that becomes a problem.
Oh absolutely. The onus for this falls on the winners. And Trump in 2016 did little if any of this. I don't normally think of "extending grace" when I think of President Trump.
That's what I mean about grace. It's breaking the cycle. Right now, Biden voters can justify to themselves mocking the other side as they can whatabout to 2016 and point to Trump voters doing the same. Trump voters in 2016 can whatabout to something in 2012 and the 2012 voters can whatabout to 2008 and it goes on.
Call it what you want. At some point, my hope is people are secure enough to not "Repay evil with evil".
But it's pretty obvious, this isn't popular.
As usual, the Godfather shows us the example. People might have smiled when the Don declared peace after Sonny was killed. But in the end, people cheered when Michael revenge / power grab murders all the people.
Doug B
Footballguy
I might be parsing your words a bit too finely, but on the quoted phrase specifically: Mocking individuals like the "We the People" lady IMHO is not mocking "the other side".
Not sure if you meant to use "We the People's" Twitter mocking as an example of a larger "lack of grace" in the wider world or not.
We'll just have to disagree if you think mocking individuals like the "We the People" lady IMHO is not mocking "the other side".
I asked this question when I veered off on this tangent:
I received a pretty clear answer. It wasn't what I hoped. But that's ok too. Grace is hard. It's hard for me too.
We'll see where it goes from here. But I'm not giving up on it.
ChiefD
Footballguy
To me, healing starts with self.
When we feel that we have to get "even", that is a window into your own self. Social media has allowed us to "get even" while we hide behind a keyboard or a common mob. And social media has fueled an attitude change in my opinion. It's made people angry, because they know there are people out there just like them. And it becomes comfortable to jump on that mentality because there are others just like us to support that shared anger.
So to me, the question is:
"Self, why are you so angry about this?"
Until we can answer that question about ourselves, we can't heal.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
I'd wager the mockery that the Trump administration, their media agents and many of his supporters are making of the post Election Day time period is far more damaging than the "OHHHH...Let's clown a MAGA supprorter because he's crying that this election is rigged" commentary from some in The Left...
AND....
I'd ALMOST wager that once the mockery of post Election Day institutions comes to an end.....mocking on MAGA supporters will go significantly down too.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Now that you mention it, I didn't see any of that from Obama either, actually. But, I think you forget that all the Democrats were calling for his head even before he got elected and acted that way thru next four years NON-STOP. So, I'll excuse him for not playing nice. I think he tried to reach across a couple times and was rebuffed anyways.
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Understood. We can play this back and forth forever. I'm much more interested in how we go forward. Independent of the past or the whatabout other side. And that's not easy.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I was only responding to your assertion that the hate comes mainly from the left.
Look it’s not going to be easy to heal the nation and move on but if we’re going to have any chance it has to come from the leaders of the parties.
I don’t know if Biden can do that but he and McConnell have some history of working together, certainly more than Trump and Pelosi had or were ever going to have.
They’ll never see eye to eye on many policy but that’s okay, just try to work to find compromise occasionally and get stuff done for the American people once in a while.
It would be a great start...
BladeRunner
Footballguy
The problem is is that you weren't interested in healing the country for the last 4 years but now that your guy won, suddenly you're all interested in it. Don't you see how that comes off?
sho nuff
Footballguy
The point is we are healing because of the last 4 years. That is what we mostly need healing from. It was an increase in divisiveness, hate and all.
Many of us were interested in a better last 4 years...we were called snowflakes and written off by many. Called liberal, socialist, communist...told we hate America and so on.
But even after that...yes, we want to move forward...we are trying to be better. But can only control what we do...can only do so much without others trying as well.
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