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Healing And Moving Forward - Thoughts? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
Manster
Footballguy
Supposedly, McEnany has a pile of affidavits......I think more may come in the next week or so
gianmarco
Footballguy
Supposedly?
Affidavits claiming what?
Are they going to be part of a trial? If not, they are worthless.
A link from a reputable site to the report about this would be helpful.
Let's deal with truth here.
Otherwise, it's just more unsubstantiated nonsense floating around on Twitterverse.
sho nuff
Footballguy
The same ones their lawyer admitted in court that many were lies and spam?
https://lawandcrime.com/2020-election/trump-campaign-lawyer-admits-to-judge-our-search-for-evidence-of-fraud-produced-obvious-lies-and-spam/amp/
Manster
Footballguy
We've all heard all the complaints in the different states so far. Do you need a link for that? Supposedly, they're gathering more info.....like I said, we maybe hearing more as this unfolds.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Well there is the smoke of Trump lawyers saying on the record in oral argument that they are not arguing there was fraud.
Or the fact that the money Trump is raising for his legal fight to make sure there is no voter fraud is actually just going into his pocket (which is most likely totally legal) and not being used to see where the so-called smoke is coming from.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Take it to another thread. This one is about fighting against political tribalism.
Back on topic, I do think that true overtures of understanding need to happen from the incoming Biden admin. Let the GOP rant and work through the emotions of losing the presidency. Focus on the pandemic and easing the suffering for ALL Americans, regardless of political affiliation. That is what Trump should have done from the start. Don't repeat his mistakes.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Yes, I need the links. Because everything I've seen has been false and/or thrown out and/or recanted.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I was referring to political division in this country, which appears to be getting worse with time.
As with bigotry of any flavor, the best thing people can do to increase tolerance is interact with those who hold different political beliefs, and remove themselves from the “bubbles” promoted by social media and partisan news sources.
Unfortunately, both are tall orders. For example, no one in my immediate social circle supported Trump or his political philosophy. And prior to this election, I paid little attention to the news or politics, period. What incentive does someone like me have to reach across the aisle?
Although we are focusing on relationships torn about by politics, I suspect most people are more similar to me, in that their friends share their values and political affiliation, by and large. It seems conflicts occur more commonly with family or extended social circles. If that’s the case, it may be best to just grin and bear it.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Fair enough. In addition to building a foundation of caring, it also allows for the passage of time. The latter is probably just as important in the healing process.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
There are plenty of other countries with better results and lower costs, but none have a completely privatized healthcare system.
The Commonwealth Fund’s Mirror, mirror comparison does a good job showing us which systems outperform the US. Which system(s) were you referring to?
We can take this discussion to another thread as well.
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
As previously mentioned I had $500 on Trump to win the election and if he did, was going to donate the proceeds to help the poor. Since the odds swung so wildly on election night I added to my Biden bet from the primaries. So a couple of days ago I donated my $500 profit to help buy families in the community turkeys for Thanksgiving. This despite my upstairs gambling casino not actually paying me yet. <_<
Posting here because 6-10 people in my district voted for Trump so it's probable a lot of those turkeys are going to Trump supporters and that's okay.
Posting here because 6-10 people in my district voted for Trump so it's probable a lot of those turkeys are going to Trump supporters and that's okay.
Maik Jeaunz
Footballguy
there is no healing until Trump comes out and de-escalates the situation. we are closer to violence than we are to healing.
MAC_32
Footballguy
@Joe Bryant this is why healing and moving forward cannot happen. We are not a society driven by facts. Our decisions and uninformed opinions are developed based on feelings and wishcasting that fulfills our tribe's objectives.Sneegor said:
I don't fully agree though. I think it's more like, "this is why healing and moving forward
We've always wishcasted and hoped for our tribe.
What is required of us is to focus on our common ground I think. And again, I think a ton of this hinges on the words we use in "facts" and realize where opinion blends in. I may think it's a fact the best way to help the homeless is compassion and assistance without strings. Another person may think it's a fact the best way to help the homeless is through more restrictive assistance that requires something from the recipient. Those are opinions. Not facts.
It's been my experience, like with the example above, people are super quick to dismiss objections to their ideas as the other person just won't listen to "facts". When many times, it's a lot more subjective than they'll admit.
I think we can do this. But it takes work. And humility. And recognizing we don't have perfect knowledge. And that's not easy.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
A Sam Harris podcast relevant to this discussion.
TLDL - liberals often come off as sanctimonious ### holes to conservatives. Trump doesn't put out a judgmental vibe, which makes him attractive to the people the liberals are being sanctimonious ### holes to. There's some truth to this. I recognize that I can be a sanctimonious ### hole in political discussions. I think this is akin to what Joe has been recognizing about conducting discourse as if you have perfect and complete knowledge.
Sorry if above violates foul language filter policy here. That's Harris's phrase, and it's probably a pretty good way to succinctly convey the message.
TLDL - liberals often come off as sanctimonious ### holes to conservatives. Trump doesn't put out a judgmental vibe, which makes him attractive to the people the liberals are being sanctimonious ### holes to. There's some truth to this. I recognize that I can be a sanctimonious ### hole in political discussions. I think this is akin to what Joe has been recognizing about conducting discourse as if you have perfect and complete knowledge.
Sorry if above violates foul language filter policy here. That's Harris's phrase, and it's probably a pretty good way to succinctly convey the message.
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
You don't think Biden has already been under investigation?
All the Republicans I know already accept reality. They certainly aren't happy about it, but they accept it. You are way underestimating how difficult it will be to flip those that believe the only way trump could lose an election is if it was rigged. He has repeated it himself many times over. The people that far at the end of the spectrum... the ones that need someone to prove a negative to them right now, "Well prove to me that it WASN'T rigged!".... they will never have enough proof. They still think Obama was born in some other country.
If anyone believes ALL MEDIA, now including fox news, is against them then the only people they have left to believe is the other people wearing aluminum foil on the facebook feed. What specific part of the process do you need to see played out?
EZD222
Footballguy
The path that somehow leads to Trump remaining in office. There is no other option. I've watched his posts since election and +90% have been "stock up on your toilet paper" and "get ready for civil war" and "rioting is going to be like we've never seen" and "trump will unequivocally be president." There isn't "wait and see" or "I'll accept the results." That decision has been made up already. It's you vs us. No middle ground.
And the reality is I have no appetite to crossing that aisle whether on a message board, in real life, or even with family. So if that makes the divide impossible to cross so be it. I can have those substantial conversations around policy over character, family 1st, religon, etc. This though...it's Facebook memes, Parler, and OANN and its like gasoline to conspiracy.
Tons of truth here. It's so good and accurate.
It's important enough it's worth making an exception on the language filter.
Nobody likes to be preached to. Nobody likes to feel like they're being talked down to.
Regardless of right or left, I think we have massive room for improvement there.
I was listening to Cowherd today and he had Emmanuel Acho on (Uncomfortable Conversations With A Black Man) and he talked about a quote by John Lewis that was something like, "It's not so much what you say. It's what is heard".
Meaning if you come off as snarky or condescending or other things like this, the words you might be saying could be true, but they will be ineffective.
I see this personally a ton with my Christian friends. They might be saying words they (and I) believe to be true. But they land in such a way with the recipient that the words aren't effective.
The classic response to that is usually, "
- I'm just speaking the truth". I ask those people: "What's the goal here? For you to feel better about yourself that you 'spoke the truth' or is the goal to get the other person to see your way of thinking and give it a chance?" It's the responsibility of the speaker to be understood. That's why good speakers are valuable. It's difficult.
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
I apologize if this posts screams LAM, but I've learned to look at things a little differently. In the past, it was donate anonymously and feel good about yourself. I think someone in the bible said something like that. Problem is, that's not working enough. I'm sorry to mention that my oldest is Autistic, possibly more than @Koya has mentioned he's Jewish, but he has given me so many different ways to look at life. One of them is that not only should I keep it to myself, I need to SCREAM it so everyone can hear. So other people want to do better than me. That a lot of people will want to do better. Actually make things better.
JB, you do a lot and have written about it. Love you so much for that. Thank you.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
They all out preform the US simply because they cover everyone. I don't hear a lot of complaints about Medicare from seniors, i really can't think of one.Terminalxylem said:
Just cover all Americans with basic coverage so none have to declare bankruptcy and im good. You want better coverage then buy it through doctors who don't want to take Medicare.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Well said.Tons of truth here. It's so good and accurate.
It's important enough it's worth making an exception on the language filter.
Nobody likes to be preached to. Nobody likes to feel like they're being talked down to.
Regardless of right or left, I think we have massive room for improvement there.
I was listening to Cowherd today and he had Emmanuel Acho on (Uncomfortable Conversations With A Black Man) and he talked about a quote by John Lewis that was something like, "It's not so much what you say. It's what is heard".
Meaning if you come off as snarky or condescending or other things like this, the words you might be saying could be true, but they will be ineffective.
I see this personally a ton with my Christian friends. They might be saying words they (and I) believe to be true. But they land in such a way with the recipient that the words aren't effective.
The classic response to that is usually, "
It's the responsibility of the speaker to be understood. That's why good speakers are valuable. It's difficult.
I saw the interview as well today with Acho, who strikes me as someone who totally gets it. Far too many are too concerned with shouting the other side down and acting superior without realizing that their methods are terrible at winning people over with their arguments. I see it all the time on this subforum here. That is why I think healing and moving forward in any real way is a dream that won't be realized any time soon. The average person is more worried about being right and doing whatever they can to make their enemy (see: people who do not agree with their stances) look bad. Feels like the country is slowly bleeding out, to be honest. :(
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Ok, so you want government sponsored universal coverage, with supplemental private insurance for those who can afford it? I don't think that is an ideal solution for our out-of-control healthcare costs, but a heck of a lot better than trusting the corporate world to take care of it on their own.
And all doctors should be required to accept whatever flavor of Medicare you're endorsing, as it is inconsistent with medical ethics to deny people access to care based on inability to pay.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
How do you heal and move forward when the President promotes the belief that you're anti-Christian? Just keep turning the other cheek until he gets what he wants?
Joe Summer
Footballguy
A professor at Virginia Wesleyan University has stated that those who voted for Biden are anti-Christian.
The President has retweeted the quote and described it as "Progress!" (twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1327988661418340353)
I'm not playing the "both sides" game here; I'm simply asking: How do you heal and move forward when this is happening?
Thanks.
I'm pretty sure I'm Christian. And I voted for Biden.
I'm not sure how that relates to how WE move forward with healing.
There will always be people who oppose. There are lots of Democrats who seem to have no interest in healing. There are lots of Republicans who seem to have no interest in healing.
I acknowledge that and keep doing what I DO have control of.
If we wait until there is zero opposition to what we're doing, we'll never start anything.
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GordonGekko
Footballguy
Here is the question no one is asking.
Is this "healing and moving forward" worth your time? Maybe the one singular thing everyone here can agree with is your most precious resource in life is time. It's so valuable. I don't see it as a productive use of time to try to convince someone to think like I do if their value system is different. Not better and not worse, just different.
Silence and ghosting people to me is healing and moving forward. You acknowledge that both sides have better ways to use their time. People choose friends this way. No one tries to be friends with everyone. You stick to your own group where you share values and bonding rituals.
We were never designed to be "one tribe", the problem is not that there are two tribes, the problem is that the two tribes are mixed in proximity to each other. I think there is plenty of healing and moving forward to be had if people came to terms with letting the liberals have Seattle and letting the conservatives have Texas.
Nearly all people are just not worth my time. And I'm not worth the time of nearly all other people if you flip it around. Live and let live is about as much peace as anyone needs. What did Mario Puzo say about Don Corleone and Don Tattaglia? They weren't going to send Xmas cards, but they wouldn't keep killing each others sons and that had to be enough.
I wish you all the happiness in the world. Just far far far away from me. Go to Seattle. Defund the police if you want. Turn your 8 year old into a transgender if you want. Take all the guns away in Seattle if you want. Riot all day if you want. Just far far far away from me. Good luck to you. And stay away from my stomping grounds and I'll stay away from yours. We won't send Xmas cards but we won't kill each other, and that has to be enough.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Read/watch the speeches Biden has given since winning the election. He’s bent over backwards to ignore the Trump shenanigans and reached across the aisle emphasizing that he will govern for all Americans, not just the ones who voted for him. Meanwhile, the Republican Party and the largest conservative media source (FoxNews) are openly defying a peaceful transition of power and fabricating claims of voter fraud in an attempt to undermine our democracy.
But yeah, “both sides” need to work on healing.
But yeah, “both sides” need to work on healing.
I don't really understand the whatabouts on this. Our country is wounded. I think I can say without hesitation, we all can safely say, "I need to work on healing". Whatever side that is for you.Read/watch the speeches Biden has given since winning the election. He’s bent over backwards to ignore the Trump shenanigans and reached across the aisle emphasizing that he will govern for all Americans, not just the ones who voted for him. Meanwhile, the Republican Party and the largest conservative media source (FoxNews) are openly defying a peaceful transition of power and fabricating claims of voter fraud in an attempt to undermine our democracy.
But yeah, “both sides” need to work on healing.
I'm going to assume others don't agree with me. That's kind of the whole point.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
We all can work individually on being more accepting of those with alternative viewpoints, and avoid fanning the flames when differences exist.
I’m not sure true empathy is possible, however, when the other “side” believes in a dramatically different version of humanity.
Aside from leading by example, how can we convince enough people to ignore the differences which divide us?
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
I disagree though. Empahy is not always smooth and easy when the other side is challenging. But that's what makes it important.
And I'm not sure a more is needed than leading by example. Control what we can control. That's why I get so frustrated with all the "whatabouts". My answer is "What about it? Are you going to let the other side control what you do? Or are you going to do the right thing?"
And I get it that it's difficult. It's a lot easier to talk about than do. But I think it can start with the talking about.
I have a unique perspective as I have lots of friends on both sides.
I hear, "Antifa guys attacked MAGA people! See! Look at THEM! No healing happening now!"
Then it's, "Proud Boys attacked photographer! See! Look at THEM! No healing happening now!"
It's maddening.
Even if it was one sided, at some point, someone has the courage and strength and ability to not have to get the last word in and says, "I'll be willing to look weak and break the downward spiral and not retaliate. I'll be the change."
I hear, "Antifa guys attacked MAGA people! See! Look at THEM! No healing happening now!"
Then it's, "Proud Boys attacked photographer! See! Look at THEM! No healing happening now!"
It's maddening.
Even if it was one sided, at some point, someone has the courage and strength and ability to not have to get the last word in and says, "I'll be willing to look weak and break the downward spiral and not retaliate. I'll be the change."
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I’m not expecting empathy to be easy. But at some point, I’m not sure it’s possible, or even necessary. Doesn’t mean I won’t try.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
How are you defining retaliation? Is it retaliation to say "It's wrong to describe 78 million Joe Biden voters as anti-Christian"?
I was accused by a good friend of being a traitorous socialist pig-her words- because I voted for Biden which automatically means I am in favor of defunding the police. She is legit worried the madding hordes are going to overtake the country so she and her family are stocking up on ammo and making plans just in case. She informed me that I hurt Her deeply by my choice as it shows we dont share core values. Also I dont love America. Again her words backed up by her family support. I've bent over backwards to listen but now apparently the leftists are stealing the lection so its more proof that I support the downfall of America. This is a mindset that is not easy to approach with empathy when its me alone that is expecting to bend.
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2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
The same people feeding her these things also said Obama was going to institute Sharia law and take all of the guns. Those things were never going to happen. I don't understand how people still listen to others that repeatedly and knowingly lie to them to keep power.
I heard this from Fareed Zakaria today...spot on.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/11/15/fareeds-take-trump-biden-election-transition-sot-gps-vpx.cnn
Also from Senator Sanders today saying if Trump is going to say the only reason he lost is because the election is rigged that it is " disgraceful and un-American" to believe and support this. I whole heartily agree.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/11/15/fareeds-take-trump-biden-election-transition-sot-gps-vpx.cnn
Also from Senator Sanders today saying if Trump is going to say the only reason he lost is because the election is rigged that it is " disgraceful and un-American" to believe and support this. I whole heartily agree.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Doesn’t sound like a friend worth keeping. Friendship, like just about any long term relationship, should be predicated on mutual respect. Name-calling should never enter the equation.
But if you value the friendship enough, I suppose you could clarify your views and different interpretations of a Biden presidency. Or you can ignore her tirade and focus on the values you share.
If all else fails, lay low for a while. At least 4 years.
No, I mean "retaliation" in the non physical sense of "I'm not going to be cool to them because they're not being cool to me". That just turns into and endless cycle in my opinion.
You keep bringing up the Biden Anti Christian thing. This honestly means little to nothing to me. They're wrong. End of story.
People know I voted for Biden. And people that know me know I'm Christian. It's not complicated. It's the "lead by example" thing or better, just BE the example. It's how it's going to change things in my opinion. Talk won't do it.
If that were to really play out, it would be something like.
Them: "You can't be Christian and vote for Biden".
Me: I disagree. But what makes you think that?
Them: I'm guessing they're going to have some point related to abortion.
Me: I'm going to try to understand their point. And then maybe talk about Jesus and what seemed to be his putting a priority on caring for the poor.
And if we're lucky, we may wind up having a conversation. Maybe they won't want to discuss it. Who knows?
But what I know for sure is I won't throw up my hands and quit because someone said I couldn't vote for Biden and be a Christian.
We are now arms length for just the reason of lack of mututal respect. Shouldnt have come to this but thats where we in this country are today.
I was told by my cousin that all those that voted for a baby killer were going to have to answer for that on our judgment day.
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1. That sucks. I'm sorry.
2. If out of nowhere she goes from good friend to "Traitorous Socialist Pig" it doesn't sound like she's mentally stable.
3. I think these types of things are more rare than many think as they're ugly and remarkable and they grab attention. My conservative christian friends who completely welcome me and me voting for Biden is about as much of an obstacle as me cheering for a sports team they didn't like isn't nearly as remarkable.
4. At some point, and there is a point, relationships aren't salvageable. That's true of any relationship. What I'm talking about is fighting for the relationship a bit and not bailing at first sign of trouble.
To that I'd say. "I understand. I believe we're all going to have to answer on that day. I surely don't know I've got all this right. I'm trying my best to make the best decisions looking towards that day."
I don't know what else there is to say to that.
The bigger issue to me is the vitriol that was thrown at Obama and Hillary by many of the same who are hardcore Trump supporters who then react in a scorched earht manner when you point out trumps failings. Its truly amazing to watch the contortions as folks now lambaste twitter/facebook et al and herd over to parler to enjoy a larger echo chamber of bitterness.
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