Healing And Moving Forward - Thoughts? (2 Viewers)

[knowledge dropper]

We’ve just had a national tragedy. 
Also Covid should have unified us. If we had had a responsible leader it would have. 

I said outside forces.  

Very few trust the other side at this point an 6 months of protests have numbed a lot of people. 
 

COVID was too slow developing to hold the Average American’s attention span

 

[GoBirds]

I'm saying that the concept of NOW being the time to unite & heal is laughable to roughly half the country because the reasoning for it is so transparent, i.e. "Why now? Because we're in charge now." 

x1000000000

You nailed it, years of out of control tantrums/meltdown then all of the sudden when they get control it’s “can we heal as a country, if not it’s totally the other sides fault”. So predictable. 

 

[Mookie]

That’s impractical. The Democrats are in charge of the House. They have the responsibility to lead. 

So did Custer.  Sometimes, leadership involves more than just making a futile stand.  I fully support impeachment, but there's no way Trump is convicted in the Senate.  So why keep digging deeper trenches?  There was an opportunity to engage with Republican leadership and come up with a bipartisan response to a critically serious episode in our history, and now it's gone, because the Democrats have decided to "lead" by themselves.  

 

[timschochet]

I said outside forces.  

Very few trust the other side at this point an 6 months of protests have numbed a lot of people. 
 

COVID was too slow developing to hold the Average American’s attention span

70% of Americans believe that Trump is responsible for what happened. 57% want him out immediately. That’s pretty unifying, about as much as we could hope for. 

 

[timschochet]

So did Custer.  Sometimes, leadership involves more than just making a futile stand.  I fully support impeachment, but there's no way Trump is convicted in the Senate.  So why keep digging deeper trenches?  There was an opportunity to engage with Republican leadership and come up with a bipartisan response to a critically serious episode in our history, and now it's gone, because the Democrats have decided to "lead" by themselves.  

I’m not at all sure Trump won’t be convicted in the Senate. Any trial will likely not be for a few months from now. 

 

[timschochet]

x1000000000

You nailed it, years of out of control tantrums/meltdown then all of the sudden when they get control it’s “can we heal as a country, if not it’s totally the other sides fault”. So predictable. 

It’s actually conservatives who are calling for healing and unity at the moment (as a means to argue against impeachment.) 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Most of the people screaming unity don't care one bit about unity.  They just want revenge on Trump whatever that means.  All the in between is just noise.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

It's my fault we're now down the impeachment rabbit hole. I shouldn't have combined arguments.

Take impeachment out of it for a minute and look bigger picture.

Calling for "healing" like Biden did immediately following the election is just naturally going to fall on deaf ears in the context of the last four years.

Comity and decorum? Sure, that's a better argument. We could use the volume turned down in our arguments. But that's different than words like healing and unity which simply come across as "You listen to me now"-ism.

 

[Captain Cranks]

I've been pleading with my brother and sister, staunch Trump supporters who are also on FB complaining about the violence and division in our country, that it all starts with us changing our behavior.  I'm suggesting that we resist posting political stuff on FB since as long as we keep seeking out divisive news and spreading it on social media, we can't expect things to get better.  That is being met with, "Ignorance is bliss, but we can't ignore the truth." 

I honestly don't know how we right the ship at this point.  So many people are content feeding themselves toxic information that the media and politicians will be happy to provide.     

 

[GoBirds]

It’s actually conservatives who are calling for healing and unity at the moment (as a means to argue against impeachment.) 

Impeachment has been cheapened so much by the Left already I think you are reading what you want to hear, I don’t know anyone too concerned with this round of impeachment by the Left. 

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

It's my fault we're now down the impeachment rabbit hole. I shouldn't have combined arguments.

Take impeachment out of it for a minute and look bigger picture.

Calling for "healing" like Biden did immediately following the election is just naturally going to fall on deaf ears in the context of the last four years.

Comity and decorum? Sure, that's a better argument. We could use the volume turned down in our arguments. But that's different than words like healing and unity which simply come across as "You listen to me now"-ism.

Biden called for healing well before his election. He campaigned on it. 

 

[The Commish]

Next national tragedy as the result of outside forces.  Probably a major natural disaster or terrorist attack.   

We've had multiple of each of these the last 4 years and they aren't doing the trick  

 

[Mookie]

Impeachment has been cheapened so much by the Left already I think you are reading what you want to hear, I don’t know anyone too concerned with this round of impeachment by the Left. 

Do you believe that any action should be taken against the POTUS, Representatives, and Senators for their roles in encouraging the storming of the Capital? 

If so, what is it, and can this point of mutual agreement be used as a starting point for nonpartisan discussions? 

If not, then perhaps I was just being naive.   

 

[knowledge dropper]

We've had multiple of each of these the last 4 years and they aren't doing the trick  

Sadly, those aren’t big enough and people tend to politicize Hurricanes. See - there’s your global warming.   

 

[Chaz McNulty]

I think an interesting tactic towards unification would be to ditch the Democratic-led impeachment proceedings and put the insurrection response in the Republican's hands.  Ask them how they intend to address it.  Tell them that they have full Democratic support, but only if they take real steps to hold their fellow members accountable in some meaningful way. 

I was impressed with many of the Republican comments made at last weeks hearings after the insurrection, and it seemed there was broad consensus at that moment.  If a Republican led effort to censure, unseat, or even impeach ensues, it could form the basis for something more cooperative in the future between the two parties.  It would also show the Country more broadly that what happened last week is completely unacceptable.

If the Republicans do nothing, well then we continue down the divisive path we are on.     

This is the best way to get everything swept under the carpet.  The reason most Republican senators do not want impeachment is because they do not want to be put to a vote in the Senate.  To expect them to do 'the right thing' and not the 'politically right thing' is naive.

 

[The Commish]

Sadly, those aren’t big enough and people tend to politicize Hurricanes. See - there’s your global warming.   

People can't even acknowledge that creating a bomb and setting it off in a major city is a terrorist act, or rogue foreign nationals attacking soldiers on a military base is a terrorist attack.  I'm not really all that worried about the average person who can't understand that warmer waters produce bigger storms....that's the least of my concerns.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Says the guy who's party impeached someone for a BJ.

Lying under oath and obstructing justice.  Also rape.  But you knew that.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Says the guy who's party impeached someone for a BJ.

And lying about it while under oath before a grand jury. But...details, details.

 

[RCon]

Lying under oath and obstructing justice.  Also rape.  But you knew that.

My memory is fuzzy on this, but was a rape charge in the actual articles of impeachment?

Edit: The perjury and obstruction were plenty for me, by the way.

 

[AAABatteries]

I'm saying that the concept of NOW being the time to unite & heal is laughable to roughly half the country because the reasoning for it is so transparent, i.e. "Why now? Because we're in charge now." 

I totally get this but as someone who doesn't totally identify with any party isn't this basically what is said after every election?  I thought the idea of unite and heal is pretty much a standard call out after each changing of the guard.  Or has there especially been a focus on it this time around that I'm not aware of?  I know Joe Bryant has had that focus on here but maybe it's a common refrain across the country?  I do know Joe Biden has said it a bunch, maybe more than previous President elects but it's definitely something I've heard from basically all of them (maybe not Trump but doesn't really change my point if he didn't).

 

[Captain Cranks]

Lying under oath and obstructing justice.  Also rape.  But you knew that.

A fine retort if the same party didn't just show us that isn't really an issue for them.  

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

My memory is fuzzy on this, but was a rape charge in the actual articles of impeachment?

Edit: The perjury and obstruction were plenty for me, by the way.

Of course they weren’t. 
 

All counts centered on the original sin of whether he lied in a civil deposition about getting a BJ (in a situation where the Special Counsel’s office used a wire tap to confirm that he had received said BJ and coordinated with Paula Jones’s counsel to ensure he’d be asked about it at the deposition). And, further, whether his further responses to Congress and a grand jury addressing whether he lied in that deposition were themselves perjury.
 

Which I think makes Chaz’s comment pretty fair.   A lot of resources were invested into even creating the circumstances for there to be impeachment charges against Clinton. 
 

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I'm saying that the concept of NOW being the time to unite & heal is laughable to roughly half the country because the reasoning for it is so transparent, i.e. "Why now? Because we're in charge now." 

Also because we just had an insurrection that overran a joint session of Congress.  The hope is that there might be some good-faith Republicans out there who see that and switch course.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I totally get this but as someone who doesn't totally identify with any party isn't this basically what is said after every election?

I think what is unique here, from both the OPs post in this thread, and other conservative views - after the 2016 election, there were calls for unity by the Trump party in the form of: "The Left really needs to understand our point of view!  that is why Clinton lost!!"

Now, after the 2020 election, there are still call for unity from the Trump party in the form of: "The left really needs to understand our point of view.  We will never be able to unify unless you adopt our positions!"

I don't recall one time that the OP, or any other conservative, suggesting that they should take some time to understand the Left's point of view.  They are all too willing to unify, but only as long as we unify around their perspective.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Also because we just had an insurrection that overran a joint session of Congress.  The hope is that there might be some good-faith Republicans out there who see that and switch course.

For example, more of this would both heal and help the country move forward:

Emma Kinery @EmmaKinery

Mark Levin, Ben Shapiro and Dan Bongino’s employer, Cumulus Media, has told its on-air personalities to stop suggesting that the election was stolen from President Trump — or face termination “immediately”

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

One thing I learned when looking at Ashli Babbit’s social media posts is that Juanita Broaddrick (the one who accused Clinton of rape in Arkansas), has gone full Q Anon/ Stop the Steal. 
 

 

[2Squirrels1Nut]

For example, more of this would both heal and help the country move forward:

Emma Kinery @EmmaKinery

Mark Levin, Ben Shapiro and Dan Bongino’s employer, Cumulus Media, has told its on-air personalities to stop suggesting that the election was stolen from President Trump — or face termination “immediately”

Great news. 

 

[DaVinci]

Of course they weren’t. 
 

All counts centered on the original sin of whether he lied in a civil deposition about getting a BJ (in a situation where the Special Counsel’s office used a wire tap to confirm that he had received said BJ and coordinated with Paula Jones’s counsel to ensure he’d be asked about it at the deposition). And, further, whether his further responses to Congress and a grand jury addressing whether he lied in that deposition were themselves perjury.
 

Which I think makes Chaz’s comment pretty fair.   A lot of resources were invested into even creating the circumstances for there to be impeachment charges against Clinton. 
 

Monica was an Antifa plant?

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

I think what is unique here, from both the OPs post in this thread, and other conservative views - after the 2016 election, there were calls for unity by the Trump party in the form of: "The Left really needs to understand our point of view!  that is why Clinton lost!!"

Now, after the 2020 election, there are still call for unity from the Trump party in the form of: "The left really needs to understand our point of view.  We will never be able to unify unless you adopt our positions!"

I don't recall one time that the OP, or any other conservative, suggesting that they should take some time to understand the Left's point of view.  They are all too willing to unify, but only as long as we unify around their perspective.

I think it's totally the opposite, kinda what @Andy Dufresne is referring to earlier

 

[timschochet]

I think there may be some misunderstanding of what healing and unity imply. It doesn’t mean that we’re supposed to give in, surrender to the other side. It means that we recognize that as Americans we have a commonality of interests and that, where we disagree with each other we do so as friends, not enemies, and we treat each other with dignity, empathy and respect. Why should that be so difficult? 

 

[BladeRunner]

BLM arrests at the Capitol were 5 times (update/ 4 times now) higher than on the 6th (so far). 316 people were arrested. They didn’t storm the Capitol with congress in session. CHOP arrests also happened, so your big hypocrisy point isn’t exactly holding water here. You make it sound as if after these summer riots everyone just went home. 
 

Trump claimed the election would be stolen if he didn’t win. He then claimed the election was stolen. He wouldn’t commit to a peaceful transition. He told proud boys to stand by. He encouraged supporters to be in Washington on the 6th. A man he pardoned (Flynn) called for martial law and the insurrection act. His lawyer (Rudy) called for “trial by combat.” A former lawyer (wood) called for firing squads and that mike pence should pay. Trump told them to march down Pennsylvania Avenue. 
FBG conservatives and Republican congressman like Matt gaetz want to now point at protests during the summer as if it’s the same thing. It’s not, it isn’t even close. 
 

Oh, forgot to add- still hasn’t conceded the election. 

they were arrested but NOT charged.  They were subsequently let go by the DA's of the respective cities.

Arrests to arrests comparisons is only the start.  The follow up with charges and jail time never happened with BLM.  But you can bet it will with the hooligans from Wednesday.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I think there may be some misunderstanding of what healing and unity imply. It doesn’t mean that we’re supposed to give in, surrender to the other side. It means that we recognize that as Americans we have a commonality of interests and that, where we disagree with each other we do so as friends, not enemies, and we treat each other with dignity, empathy and respect. Why should that be so difficult? 

Because we don’t have a commonality of perceived interests?  Because not everyone’s positions are deserving of dignity or respect?

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Because we don’t have a commonality of perceived interests?  Because not everyone’s positions are deserving of dignity or respect?

Do you think Camp Auschwitz guy would appreciate a Harry & David basket?

 

[timschochet]

Because we don’t have a commonality of perceived interests?  Because not everyone’s positions are deserving of dignity or respect?

Most of us do, outside of the extremists. 

 

[RnR]

Do you think Camp Auschwitz guy would appreciate a Harry & David basket?

I think you'd be surprised by what a civil conversation over some deluxe assorted nuts might produce.

 

[General Malaise]

Do you think Camp Auschwitz guy would appreciate a Harry & David basket?

Only if it doesn't include those pears that are impossible to eat even WITH teeth.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

hibit:  “ I brought assorted nuts for you assorted nuts!”

 

[Zow]

Next national tragedy as the result of outside forces.  Probably a major natural disaster or terrorist attack.   

Like people storming the capitol and temporarily taking it over?

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Because we don’t have a commonality of perceived interests?  Because not everyone’s positions are deserving of dignity or respect?

Most of us do, outside of the extremists. 

I’m not sure how broadly you’re using the term “extremists.”  But I can’t find much to agree with in the grievances of Trump supporters.  They mostly seem like fictional grievances to me.

 

[Zow]

I don't recall one time that the OP, or any other conservative, suggesting that they should take some time to understand the Left's point of view.  They are all too willing to unify, but only as long as we unify around their perspective.

If a registered democratic American citizen and a Russian oligarch were drowing in a lake and you could only save one...

 

[Sinn Fein]

If a registered democratic American citizen and a Russian oligarch were drowing in a lake and you could only save one...

Trick question.  They are both dogs!

 

[Zow]

Trick question.  They are both dogs!

But don't like 1/2 of people* prefer to save the dog to the human? 

*ETA: removed the "us" because I'm not part of the group that voted to save the dog.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Twenty plus years and a disbarment later and folks still can't admit Clinton was guilty. I'm sure this round of healing and unity will go better though.

Of course he was guilty of the conduct. That doesn’t respond to the point that was made. “The Left” was charged with trivializing impeachment. In other threads, they’ve been charged with being ou to get Trump from the beginning. 
 

But Clinton faced an independent counsel that was first tasked with investigating a land deal, then with investigating the White House travel office, then with a suicide, and then, finally, with statements made about a sexual relationship he made in a deposition for a case that had nothing to do with the sexual relationship he lied about. 
 

Some Trump supporters have argued that both cases represented overreach. Heck, to hear Kavanaugh and Starr tell it, THEY think they had too much power. 
 

But it’s just absolute nonsense to argue that the Clinton impeachment was somehow predicated on more serious grounds than the Trump impeachment.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Most of us do, outside of the extremists. 

I think you're really wrong. I actually agree with @fatguyinalittlecoat. 

I'd recommend the book I'm reading to just about anybody - Divided We Fall: America's Secession Threat and How to Restore Our Nation by David French. It's an easy read but really says a lot. I recommend it highly.

We have always been a nation of divided interests. But it's only been recently that we've taken it to such a deep personal level. He talks about how there were deep, religious differences that needed overcoming upon the formation of the USA. What we argue about is different today, but the depth of conviction isn't much different.

I'd argue that it's because we've made the federal government so important - where we make "one size fits all" laws that apply where they don't have any business to.

One example that French cites is the idea of sanctuary cities. That should be California's business. But since California wants to make it everybody's business, then people push back on it nationally and they ask - at this iteration - for the Trump administration to get involved. Don't go down this path too specifically. It's just an example. 

I think if we returned to more of a federalist form of government where you live like you live and I'll live like I live that a lot of pressure would be relieved. 

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

I think you're really wrong. I actually agree with @fatguyinalittlecoat. 

I'd recommend the book I'm reading to just about anybody - Divided We Fall: America's Secession Threat and How to Restore Our Nation by David French. It's an easy read but really says a lot. I recommend it highly.

We have always been a nation of divided interests. But it's only been recently that we've taken it to such a deep personal level. He talks about how there were deep, religious differences that needed overcoming upon the formation of the USA. What we argue about is different today, but the depth of conviction isn't much different.

I'd argue that it's because we've made the federal government so important - where we make "one size fits all" laws that apply where they don't have any business to.

One example that French cites is the idea of sanctuary cities. That should be California's business. But since California wants to make it everybody's business, then people push back on it nationally and they ask - at this iteration - for the Trump administration to get involved. Don't go down this path too specifically. It's just an example. 

I think if we returned to more of a federalist form of government where you live like you live and I'll live like I live that a lot of pressure would be relieved. 

Awesome post

 

[JAA]

the party needs to show it actually has principles and a backbone and not just blind loyalty to Trump.  

I hope you're right, but I think you're likely wrong.  The GOP knows they would lose more voters than gain voters by going hard after those that perpetrated the insurrection, let alone those that enabled it. 

The GOP has proven itself to be craven and in search of power only.  I hope I'm wrong, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Thank you for calling them out, @jm192.

I want to optimistically disagree with this.  As someone who voted neither Clinton or Trump in 2016 I could easily be swayed.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

If a registered democratic American citizen and a Russian oligarch were drowing in a lake and you could only save one...

Two questions:
1) Which one would be more grateful that I, a mostly conservative, all white male was the one that saved them?

2) Is it my lake?

 

[JAA]

Looking at any of this like it's Steelers/Ravens, Dolphins/Patriots, or Cowboys/Eagles is a massive part of the problem.   Violence is wrong.   Destruction of property is wrong.  The end.

Whatever group or individual is involved in orchestrating violence, ever, is wrong and should absolutely, positively be held accountable, investigated, tried if evidence supports a crime, and punished.

If BLM/Antifa/whatever perps were involved in anyway on Wed. in DC, they can take their spot right next to Trump/Trumpists at the defendant's table.  If any of those individuals were involved in inciting stuff earlier in the year, again; investigate, try if evidence supports guilt of a crime, and punish. 

Lack of a desired response for one instance of violence (regardless of those responsible) does not mean that every other act of violence for the remainder of human existence should be ignored in the name of "fairness."  Intimating otherwise, in my humble opinion, is beyond obtuse.
 

Cheering cheering Michael Irvin getting injured was wrong.

Throwing snowballs at Santa was also wrong, though hysterical looking back now

 

[knowledge dropper]

Like people storming the capitol and temporarily taking it over?

That’s called a protest in many circles.  

 

[JAA]

6 hours ago, Andy Dufresne said:
This is a Scylla and Charybdis moment for America. He probably should be impeached, but doing so makes calls for "unity" or "healing" seem disingenuous. Heck, I even WANT him to be so he can be purged from anything Republican. 

But regardless, calls from the left for unity rings hollow to those on the right and here's why. The to the right, the left always speaks in newspeak; up is down, black is white. So when Biden/Harris/Pelosi/whomever say that now is the time to heal, the right says, "Why now? After four years of political street fighting, which included an impeachment, why is NOW the time to heal? We know why - because now you're in charge. And to us "heal" sounds a lot like "heel". You don't really want unity and comity - you want us to fall in line, submit, and obey. Well forget that. You can take your Pax Democratica and shovel it."
Expand  

If the country can't unite behind the concept of "Our President [and other government officials] should not incite an insurrection against the government" then I'm not sure when there would be unity.  If one considers that a divisive concept then one needs to stand up and say "I support what Donald Trump did" rather than hide behind "impeachment would be divisive".

FYP