Helmet headsets for DBs and elimination of force-out ruling: (1 Viewer)

[KCC]

Those two rule changes may cut into WR stats, and especially the all importan stat of TD production. Have any of you factored those into your WR projections? If so, what did you estimate the impact of those rule changes to be?

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Those two rule changes may cut into WR stats, and especially the all importan stat of TD production. Have any of you factored those into your WR projections? If so, what did you estimate the impact of those rule changes to be?

Wow - didn't know that. Can you explain the force-out rule?

 

[KCC]

Those two rule changes may cut into WR stats, and especially the all importan stat of TD production. Have any of you factored those into your WR projections? If so, what did you estimate the impact of those rule changes to be?

Wow - didn't know that. Can you explain the force-out rule?

Here's some perspectives from some NFL coaches after the rule change was announced.

Could force-out rule change affect play calls?

August 2, 2008 3:00 PM

Posted by ESPN.com's Paul Kuharsky

On my first stop on my first trip around the AFC South, I asked Tony Dungy about the abolition of the force out-rule judgment. Receivers have to get both feet down in bounds, or passes will be ruled incomplete.

A piece of Dungy's answer made my ears perk up: "I think it'll change where you throw the ball, definitely."

"I think it will be bigger for the offense, just having to understand that some of those jump balls you threw on the sideline and the things right on the boundary may not be completions this year," Dungy said. "But I like the rule. I think it will be much easier to officiate consistently. And you won't have those plays that get reviewed or maybe don't get reviewed -- is it a force out? Isn't it? What constitutes that? I think everyone knows now you have to get two feet down and that will make it easier."

I was surprised that he suggested the rule change could actually impact some play calls, and left eager to see what the other three coaches had to say on the subject.

But Gary Kubiak, Jeff Fisher and Jack Del Rio all lined up on the other side. Each said he don't envision the change influencing any decisions regarding pass plays.

Kubiak: "I don't see how much it's going to change. It takes a judgment call out of the game. I think they are trying to make it pretty concrete. We'll see. I think it's one of those things where one year there may be zero that it affected and the next year there may be 15 because you changed the rule, so let's wait and see."

Del Rio: "It's a handful of plays over the course of the year. I think it's going to be one of those rules that's going to make a whole lot of sense. We're going to have less confusion. It's pretty clean. You either get two down or you don't get two down. You either get two down and possess the ball or not... As long as there is not a catch and then tackle and carry, he's got to get his feet down. No I don't think it changes the game of football at all as we know it."

Fisher: "I think it's a good rule. We [on the competition committee] went back and looked at dozens of plays that were ruled force outs, half of them were and half of them weren't. We went back and looked at dozens that were not ruled force outs, half of them were and half of them weren't. It's a hard play to officiate. So we just eliminated it. You either get the feet in or your don't. It's a reward for a good play if you can get him out of bounds. But there is also an element of forward progress involved, so if the guy is five yards from the boundary and makes the catch, you essentially stop his progress, it's going to be ruled a catch. You're not going to have a situation where you take a guy from here and run him and dump him out of bounds."

Among players, defensive backs certainly feel like a rule alteration has finally gone their way.

"I think it's a good rule," injured Houston cornerback Dunta Robinson said. "A lot of things have gone against us as DBs in the past. To get one of these rules on our side is a good thing. If he's in the air, I'm going, I'm pushing him out, I'm doing everything I can."

 

[Moe Green]

Drop Antwaan Randle El down about 14 spots.

 

[Hoart Petterson]

How many TD's per season come on forceouts? 3?

 

[KCC]

How many TD's per season come on forceouts? 3?

According to this, 18 last season. I have no idea whether that was a high or low number for a typical year. It's not just that there would have been 18 fewer TDs for receivers last year (although, that's enough to impact projections slightly), it's that the new rule may also change the perception of players and coaches on how to adjust play calling in some redzone situations. Read the last part from Michael Irvin.

Wednesday, Jul 30, 2008 8:21 am EDT

No more force-out calls for NFL receivers

When push comes to shove, NFL receivers had better have their feet inbounds this season.In a rule change that should be popular with defensive backs, a receiver must have both feet inbounds for a completion — even if he is being knocked out of bounds while trying to do so. Officials no longer have to make the judgment call of whether the receiver would have landed inbounds had he not been hit.

"We've been looking at it closely for the last two years," said Mike Pereira, the NFL's vice president of officiating. "It's a difficult call because it forces the officials to judge, one, would he have come down inbounds? Two, was the contact overt enough — was the defensive back shoving the receiver out of bounds, or legitimately trying to intercept the pass? And three, did the receiver hold onto the ball?"

Team owners, who voted in favor of eliminating force outs at their annual meeting in March, also decreed that defenders must have both feet inbounds for a successful interception. Force-out calls are rare, but they can be game-changing. There were 18 of them last season, and, by the league's count, five were called incorrectly by the official on the field. The plays are not eligible to be reviewed on instant replay.

Former Dallas Cowboys star Michael Irvin thinks the new rule could cause some teams to adjust their offensive strategies, particularly in passing situations.

"It used to be that I could tap in, make sure I get in, even if it's high I can go up and get it," Irvin said. "And the defensive back had to give me the right to come down inbounds. Now, without that, the sideline becomes like another defensive back. Now I've got to be thinking about staying away from that on third and eight, third and nine. That means guys have to go inside more and try to make those plays.''

Source: Los Angeles Times

 

[Manster]

meh. i think it will have minimal effect. i think it's good. WR's get away with too much as it is.

 

[Lash]

thread on this when it came out but probably burried on page 32 by now hehe

it will change the fundamental way a DB guards the sideline, no ball thrown high AND to the sideline will be completed

lower you shoulder and drive through their thighs towards the OOB line instead of trying to jump and bat down the pass

 

[Tanner9919]

Those two rule changes may cut into WR stats, and especially the all importan stat of TD production. Have any of you factored those into your WR projections? If so, what did you estimate the impact of those rule changes to be?

I think the ebb and flow of the NFL is in motion - one year RB's do well, the next year its the WR's...back and forth it goes..once the league figures out that they have to stop the run, offenses switch to passing more often, and then once the defenses figure that out, the offenses go back to running the ball more..we're probably heading back toward a RB-heavy season with the rule change(s)..everyone's spent the entire off-season finding ways to defend against the pass ( nickel/dime defenses,etc). I expect to see many more RB's going over 1200 rush yards this season...

 

[King of the Jungle]

I don't mind the rule...but WRs should only need one foot down.

 

[the Kid]

Isn't the defense of saying "it only impacts a handful of calls a year" flawed in the sense that you are trying to compare two different things? In years past, DB's might only push a WR out a "handful of times" because they knew that the force out rule existed, and it doesn't make a difference to push the receiver out. However now, a DB has incentive to push a receiver out of bounds.

 

[KCC]

Isn't the defense of saying "it only impacts a handful of calls a year" flawed in the sense that you are trying to compare two different things? In years past, DB's might only push a WR out a "handful of times" because they knew that the force out rule existed, and it doesn't make a difference to push the receiver out. However now, a DB has incentive to push a receiver out of bounds.

I'm guessing a lot of defensive back coaches will be emphasizing this rule change in training camp.

 

[noneother]

Isn't the defense of saying "it only impacts a handful of calls a year" flawed in the sense that you are trying to compare two different things? In years past, DB's might only push a WR out a "handful of times" because they knew that the force out rule existed, and it doesn't make a difference to push the receiver out. However now, a DB has incentive to push a receiver out of bounds.

I'm guessing a lot of defensive back coaches will be emphasizing this rule change in training camp.

and... what's the call if I am large safety, and catch the receiver... as he catches the ball, and throw him out of bounds... I bet and risk of great bodily harm after the play, that LaRon Landry could throw Steve Smith about 5 feet towards the boundarythis makes the big guys, Calvin, AJ, TO, Colston.. more valuable, in my opinion

 

[Fallerjw]

What's the rule on catching a guy in the air and holding him off the ground until you can get to the sidelines to drop him?

 

[Stinkin Ref]

What's the rule on catching a guy in the air and holding him off the ground until you can get to the sidelines to drop him?

if you read the article above, I think it is Del Rio who comments on this......basically this will not be allowed they will say forward progress was stopped

 

[Fallerjw]

What's the rule on catching a guy in the air and holding him off the ground until you can get to the sidelines to drop him?

if you read the article above, I think it is Del Rio who comments on this......basically this will not be allowed they will say forward progress was stopped

Thanks

 

[OldMilwaukee]

Yes!

With the defense finally getting a technology, that for 13 years was exclusively given to the offense, the radio communication has the potential to drastically drop offensive production.

I do not see many prognosticators factoring this into projections, or much reporting in general on the subject.

Thanks to spygate defenses will now be playing on a level field with the offenses.

 

[gpalmer]

On Mike and Mike in the morning on Friday they brought up how the elimination of the force-out ruling will in-fact lead to more judgement calls for the refs not fewer. Their logic was that DBs would be overly anxious to hit receivers near the sidelines. Then it becomes a judgement call on the ref as to weather the receiver was hit before the ball got there.

The net result will be more pass interference calls, which I don't think count for WR, as opposed to a force out.

Personally I think this has the potential to lower team scoring across the board. It could change the 2 minute offense, as it would make it harder to complete a pass near the sidelines. I can also see coaches being reluctant to call a fade pass to the back pilon. It no longer is just a battle for the ball.

 

[Andy Herron]

I would think that any OC worth their salt will take this into consideration in how plays are drawn up.

Furthermore, I would have to think that QBs and WRs will adjust their throws and routes accordingly, giving themselves just a little more room on sideline patterns. Due to this, I don't think it will have a major impact, although there will be times it comes into play nonetheless.

Bottom line, I don't think the force-out rule should hinder projections. They're pros, they'll adjust.

 

[Bri]

There was an art of sorts to Jerry Rice, Steve Largent, etc working the sideline in a 2 minute drill. I'm afraid we've taken that away. It was fun to watch and made for some good comebacks. We discussed this months ago and others don't think it's gone so...we'll see.

 

[pollardsvision]

i think this rule is kind of stupid. they want to help the flow of the game? this will make it things worse.

i really don't feel like watching drives stall out when a QB makes a good pass only to have a beaten DB come over in time to knock the WR out of bounds without making a play on the ball.

looking at last year has no bearing on how this might affect the game this year. in years past, DBs were paranoid about pushing someone out of bounds, it was like a goal-tending call that wasn't worth the risk of making a bad shot count as 2 points.

seems like the NFL is promoting lazy defense and more commercials here, imo.

 

[Bri]

I preferred the contact within 10 yards of the LOS. I never did quite understand how that rule changed(years ago) but, I like to see a little super quick tussle then a WR break free. It was almost like, maybe you shouldn't have mixed it up with him, huh DB? Conversely, you could see a DB keeping a WR in check because he didn't have the determination to get thru him. It was a super quick game within a game and I miss it

 

[HoTnickZ]

Who are the classic sideline tiptoe receivers?

 

[Liquid Tension]

How many TD's per season come on forceouts? 3?

I think the real question is how will the defensive backs change their approach to receivers. If I am near the sideline I may play the ball less and play the receiver a lot more as all I need to do is push him out on a high throw.Huge difference, no, but it will limit throwing offenses a little

 

[captbly]

I dont think any DBs are wearing headsets. Usually its the MLB thats going to wear it. And its turned off something like 15 secs before the play

 

[jagbag]

I don't mind the rule...but WRs should only need one foot down.

Strongly agree here.

 

[Interseptopus]

How many TD's per season come on forceouts? 3?

According to this, 18 last season. I have no idea whether that was a high or low number for a typical year. It's not just that there would have been 18 fewer TDs for receivers last year (although, that's enough to impact projections slightly), it's that the new rule may also change the perception of players and coaches on how to adjust play calling in some redzone situations. Read the last part from Michael Irvin.

That said 18 FORCE OUTS last year, NOT touchdowns. 18 receptions total were called on forceouts. I don't think it'll be a factor for fantasy football...

 

[Interseptopus]

i think this rule is kind of stupid. they want to help the flow of the game? this will make it things worse. i really don't feel like watching drives stall out when a QB makes a good pass only to have a beaten DB come over in time to knock the WR out of bounds without making a play on the ball.looking at last year has no bearing on how this might affect the game this year. in years past, DBs were paranoid about pushing someone out of bounds, it was like a goal-tending call that wasn't worth the risk of making a bad shot count as 2 points. seems like the NFL is promoting lazy defense and more commercials here, imo.

I agree 100%.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Had I know about the DB headsets, I would have drafted Brady higher.

 

[bentley]

I think the change will be imperceptible. People comically overreact to every rule change, especially coaches.

 

[GregR_2]

How many TD's per season come on forceouts? 3?

According to this, 18 last season. I have no idea whether that was a high or low number for a typical year. It's not just that there would have been 18 fewer TDs for receivers last year (although, that's enough to impact projections slightly), it's that the new rule may also change the perception of players and coaches on how to adjust play calling in some redzone situations. Read the last part from Michael Irvin.

That said 18 FORCE OUTS last year, NOT touchdowns. 18 receptions total were called on forceouts. I don't think it'll be a factor for fantasy football...

If so that is a good correction. But...If I have any concern, I would be less worried about the plays that were forceouts last year now being incompletions... and I would be more worried about all the the plays that the DB went for the ball because just pushing the guy out wasn't an option. Now it is. I would imagine that number would be a lot more than 18.As some commentators discussing this on TV have said, some coaches are already coaching their players to just go for the pushout if they are at the sideline.

 

[bentley]

How many TD's per season come on forceouts? 3?

According to this, 18 last season. I have no idea whether that was a high or low number for a typical year. It's not just that there would have been 18 fewer TDs for receivers last year (although, that's enough to impact projections slightly), it's that the new rule may also change the perception of players and coaches on how to adjust play calling in some redzone situations. Read the last part from Michael Irvin.

That said 18 FORCE OUTS last year, NOT touchdowns. 18 receptions total were called on forceouts. I don't think it'll be a factor for fantasy football...

If so that is a good correction. But...If I have any concern, I would be less worried about the plays that were forceouts last year now being incompletions... and I would be more worried about all the the plays that the DB went for the ball because just pushing the guy out wasn't an option. Now it is. I would imagine that number would be a lot more than 18.As some commentators discussing this on TV have said, some coaches are already coaching their players to just go for the pushout if they are at the sideline.

That just seems strange. Seems like it would be a lot easier to just make a play on the ball than time the hit on the receiver as not to interfere.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I don't mind the rule...but WRs should only need one foot down.

Strongly agree here.

I couldn't disagree more

 

[Liquid Tension]

i think this rule is kind of stupid. they want to help the flow of the game? this will make it things worse. i really don't feel like watching drives stall out when a QB makes a good pass only to have a beaten DB come over in time to knock the WR out of bounds without making a play on the ball.looking at last year has no bearing on how this might affect the game this year. in years past, DBs were paranoid about pushing someone out of bounds, it was like a goal-tending call that wasn't worth the risk of making a bad shot count as 2 points. seems like the NFL is promoting lazy defense and more commercials here, imo.

I agree 100%.

I must be in the minority, but I disagree again. Anything that can take some of the subjectivity away from refs is a good thing. Guessing whether a guy would have come in bounds or not is not the way you want a game officiated.

 

[Liquid Tension]

How many TD's per season come on forceouts? 3?

According to this, 18 last season. I have no idea whether that was a high or low number for a typical year. It's not just that there would have been 18 fewer TDs for receivers last year (although, that's enough to impact projections slightly), it's that the new rule may also change the perception of players and coaches on how to adjust play calling in some redzone situations. Read the last part from Michael Irvin.

That said 18 FORCE OUTS last year, NOT touchdowns. 18 receptions total were called on forceouts. I don't think it'll be a factor for fantasy football...

If so that is a good correction. But...If I have any concern, I would be less worried about the plays that were forceouts last year now being incompletions... and I would be more worried about all the the plays that the DB went for the ball because just pushing the guy out wasn't an option. Now it is. I would imagine that number would be a lot more than 18.As some commentators discussing this on TV have said, some coaches are already coaching their players to just go for the pushout if they are at the sideline.

Agreed, but if the defender is close enough to push a guy immediately before he gets both feet down, that says he has good coverage and/or the pass was high forcing the receiver to leave his feet.

 

[Giantseasonticketholder]

Who are the classic sideline tiptoe receivers?

Amani Toomer is one who comes to mind immediately, but he's never being "forced out". He does strange things to his ankles and always keeps his feet in bounds.