Higher Education in 2020 (1 Viewer)

[jm192]

I'm trying to do this with several issues.

I think every poster here is a good person with good intent.  And too often our passion gets thrown into arguing on behalf of or defending politicians that don't always offer up the solutions we see as best.  We get what we get and we pick the best of two $hitty solutions.  

Again, I would ask that we try to keep candidate bashing out of this.  

With the focus on higher eductation and student loans in the 2020 election--what do you think is the most reasonable way to approach this to expend higher education and make it more affordable?

 

[FBG26]

Good question. I have lots of thoughts on this, but probably more questions than answers. No time to go through them all now, but wanted to start with this one. We should look at why college is getting so expensive. 

I went to a small private liberal arts college. My first year, tuition was $22k. When I graduated, tuition was about $25k. 12 years later, tuition is now $43k.  So tuition has nearly doubled in 16 years. I looked at some other colleges I originally considered and am seeing very similar stories. What is driving the cost increase? 

 

[Snorkelson]

Good question. I have lots of thoughts on this, but probably more questions than answers. No time to go through them all now, but wanted to start with this one. We should look at why college is getting so expensive. 

I went to a small private liberal arts college. My first year, tuition was $22k. When I graduated, tuition was about $25k. 12 years later, tuition is now $43k.  So tuition has nearly doubled in 16 years. I looked at some other colleges I originally considered and am seeing very similar stories. What is driving the cost increase? 

I’ll see if I can find it, but I read an article today about Purdue’s president and how it costs less for tuition now than when he took office 7 yrs ago...I’ll try to find the link...

 

[Zow]

Good question. I have lots of thoughts on this, but probably more questions than answers. No time to go through them all now, but wanted to start with this one. We should look at why college is getting so expensive. 

I went to a small private liberal arts college. My first year, tuition was $22k. When I graduated, tuition was about $25k. 12 years later, tuition is now $43k.  So tuition has nearly doubled in 16 years. I looked at some other colleges I originally considered and am seeing very similar stories. What is driving the cost increase? 

Simple: the demand. 

I'm probably in the minority view here, but I actually think that higher education is so valuable that it's worth it's current high cost. Put differently, I don't see it as a broken system and it isn't a major issue for me in the upcoming election. 

 

[Snorkelson]

Link to article

 

[Phil Elliott]

eliminate tenure

 

[FBG26]

What is driving the cost increase? 

Simple: the demand. 

I think that's probably party of it as it makes complete sense, but I haven't actually researched my own question so I can't say for sure.

I also think part of it is schools are building these ridiculously fancy, expensive, and perhaps unnecessary facilities. The school I went to recently built a very nice, very expensive student center. The old one worked, but it wasn't anything to write home about. But an undergrad with maybe 2500 students now has a $15-20 million student center and I have to imagine that's had an impact on tuition. 

 

[Zow]

I think that's probably party of it as it makes complete sense, but I haven't actually researched my own question so I can't say for sure.

I also think part of it is schools are building these ridiculously fancy, expensive, and perhaps unnecessary facilities. The school I went to recently built a very nice, very expensive student center. The old one worked, but it wasn't anything to write home about. But an undergrad with maybe 2500 students now has a $15-20 million student center and I have to imagine that's had an impact on tuition. 

I'm sure it does. But, again, there's a demand for it. 

In a perfect world I could see an argument to make higher education a public good and service. But that'd be impossible to implement now. 

 

[Max Power]

Simple: the demand. 

I'm probably in the minority view here, but I actually think that higher education is so valuable that it's worth it's current high cost. Put differently, I don't see it as a broken system and it isn't a major issue for me in the upcoming election. 

You seem to have used the process correctly. Not all degrees are created equal and I have no idea why some people choose the paths they do.  The ones spending 100k to get an art degree are baffling to me.  

 

[wikkidpissah]

I'm trying to do this with several issues.

I think every poster here is a good person with good intent.  And too often our passion gets thrown into arguing on behalf of or defending politicians that don't always offer up the solutions we see as best.  We get what we get and we pick the best of two $hitty solutions.  

Again, I would ask that we try to keep candidate bashing out of this.  

With the focus on higher eductation and student loans in the 2020 election--what do you think is the most reasonable way to approach this to expend higher education and make it more affordable?

digitalize it. close 80% of all brick & mortar institutions and 80% of the remaining campus's functions. won't happen because of school ties, scholastic sports and many other forms of social engineering rooted in the university system, but that's your answer

 

[Zow]

You seem to have used the process correctly. Not all degrees are created equal and I have no idea why some people choose the paths they do.  The ones spending 100k to get an art degree are baffling to me.  

Thanks I think. But, I guess my distininction (and why college costs don't bother me) is in the way in which college should be viewed. To me, while it's an aim of college, the sole purpose of college shouldn't be to become more employable. A significant portion and purpose of college should be to become a better and more educated thinker and person. If lost my job tomorrow and went and had to do something totally different for work I wouldn't regret learning what I did in regards to the law, political theory, and philosophy. I'm no longer a person of faith, but I hold to high value the number of hours I spent learning different theologies. I still remember and value the times i spent reading and writing poetry and fiction. And, almost more so, even while I'm not really close to the guys I attended with much more, four years spent away with guys and girls much like me - where hours could be spent playing any sport under the sun, hanging out with a beer talking about different life philosophies, exploring sexuality with my college gf, or having to figure it out on my own or with my equally ill-equipped roommate how to do something as menial as fix a shelf - was an absolutely invaluable time in my development and it's a level of free time and opportunity I'll probably never have again. Similarly, if somebody values art and wants to spend $100k learning it, all the while embracing the college experience, I do not think that's a bad choice. The only way I see it as a bad choice is if somebody did it because they thought it would for sure end up with some high-paying job. 

My student loan payment is a check I happily write every month. It was worth it. 

 

[Zow]

digitalize it. close 80% of all brick & mortar institutions and 80% of those campus's functions. won't happen because of school ties, scholastic sports and many other forms of social engineering rooted in the university system, but that's your answer

Terrible ####### answer. That's where the real learning and life experiences take place. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

Terrible ####### answer. That's where the real learning and life experiences take place. 

Real learning? 

Like what?  

 

[Zow]

Real learning? 

Like what?  

I've taught online classes. It's basically all just memorization. To me, the "real learning" comes in a classroom setting whereby the Socratic Method can be employed and students, along with the professor, can openly discuss ideas and theories that reach beyond that day's lesson or whatever. 

There's also the "learning" that takes place of being on one's own at a campus but surrounded by many other in the same position where one's free time can be used to expand one's social horizons by joining different groups and clubs and just generally engaged in human interaction. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

I've taught online classes. It's basically all just memorization. To me, the "real learning" comes in a classroom setting whereby the Socratic Method can be employed and students, along with the professor, can openly discuss ideas and theories that reach beyond that day's lesson or whatever. 

There's also the "learning" that takes place of being on one's own at a campus but surrounded by many other in the same position where one's free time can be used to expand one's social horizons by joining different groups and clubs and just generally engaged in human interaction. 

I agree with your first point. I thought you were mostly speaking about your second point when i read "real learning". 

I think the benefits of the social experience in college as a tool for growth and learning are mostly worthless. I think we paint them that way because it was fun. 

My first two years of college were fun(finished as a full time worker), but they were completely worthless in the life lesson department. I can point to more things I learned in life from the first boss I hated( and have come to actually realize I was the problem) than I can from living with four dudes and getting drunk and playing disc golf*.

* i have actually never played disc golf just trying to appeal to the jury here.**

**sure hope my notebook is correct here otherwise I lost the jury!!!

 

[Max Power]

The only way I see it as a bad choice is if somebody did it because they thought it would for sure end up with some high-paying job. 

I'm guessing this is the reason a lot of kids go to college.  

I didn't go the traditional route and ended up getting my Bachelors in my 30s.  I was only motivated to do it to enhance my resume.   

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Thanks I think. But, I guess my distininction (and why college costs don't bother me) is in the way in which college should be viewed. To me, while it's an aim of college, the sole purpose of college shouldn't be to become more employable. A significant portion and purpose of college should be to become a better and more educated thinker and person. If lost my job tomorrow and went and had to do something totally different for work I wouldn't regret learning what I did in regards to the law, political theory, and philosophy. I'm no longer a person of faith, but I hold to high value the number of hours I spent learning different theologies. I still remember and value the times i spent reading and writing poetry and fiction. And, almost more so, even while I'm not really close to the guys I attended with much more, four years spent away with guys and girls much like me - where hours could be spent playing any sport under the sun, hanging out with a beer talking about different life philosophies, exploring sexuality with my college gf, or having to figure it out on my own or with my equally ill-equipped roommate how to do something as menial as fix a shelf - was an absolutely invaluable time in my development and it's a level of free time and opportunity I'll probably never have again. Similarly, if somebody values art and wants to spend $100k learning it, all the while embracing the college experience, I do not think that's a bad choice. The only way I see it as a bad choice is if somebody did it because they thought it would for sure end up with some high-paying job. 

My student loan payment is a check I happily write every month. It was worth it. 

agreed, but also note that obtaining those more intangible skills actually can help you in work down the line.  I believe that while liberal arts majors make less over the first 10 years of graduation (or something like that), they make more in the long run.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

Link to article

Ridiculous article. The cost savings they reference aren't related to tuition.  They have done more fundraising. That is the biggest accomplishment.  

I also have heard a lot of comments about the culture there now and none of them are good. I use Purdue as my example of a terribly run institution. 

 

[Zow]

I agree with your first point. I thought you were mostly speaking about your second point when i read "real learning". 

I think the benefits of the social experience in college as a tool for growth and learning are mostly worthless. I think we paint them that way because it was fun. 

My first two years of college were fun(finished as a full time worker), but they were completely worthless in the life lesson department. I can point to more things I learned in life from the first boss I hated( and have come to actually realize I was the problem) than I can from living with four dudes and getting drunk and playing disc golf*.

* i have actually never played disc golf just trying to appeal to the jury here.**

**sure hope my notebook is correct here otherwise I lost the jury!!!

Haha I wasn't a disc golfer (currently a "real" golfer). 

I somewhat get what you're saying. I was a pretty introverted guy going into college and borderline had some self-worth problems from some bullying in the middle school years (HS I had good friends and stuff but didn't really identify/fit in with a particular group). I got to college and was like, "there's 70 people on this floor who are just like me!" and left probably overconfident in myself which has helped me since. 

 

[Zow]

agreed, but also note that obtaining those more intangible skills actually can help you in work down the line.  I believe that while liberal arts majors make less over the first 10 years of graduation (or something like that), they make more in the long run.

Agree completely. 

 

[Zow]

I'm guessing this is the reason a lot of kids go to college.  

I didn't go the traditional route and ended up getting my Bachelors in my 30s.  I was only motivated to do it to enhance my resume.   

Nothing wrong with that either. And, for the person in your position, an online learning option (ideally that's more affordable) makes a ton of sense. 

 

[Mister CIA]

In Mississippi, we try to keep costs low buy stealing from welfare programs and funneling that money into university boondoggles: https://mississippitoday.org/2020/03/05/the-governor-the-quarterback-and-the-concussion-discussion/

 

[Stealthycat]

With the focus on higher eductation and student loans in the 2020 election--what do you think is the most reasonable way to approach this to expend higher education and make it more affordable?

supply and demand ...... the cost of college tuition soared under the Obama years and its still soaring

my son's best friend's mom said take $200,000 in student loans, it'll be Govt paid off eventually anyway :(

 

[huthut]

I think we need to take a step back and rethink what skills are needed for jobs. Right now it feels like lower paying lower skilled jobs that in the past never required a college degree suddenly need one, only because "why not". People are pressured into getting college degrees because essentially every job now requires them, which floods the market with college degrees which means every job suddenly requires them, which....

There needs to be an opportunity for people without degrees to also make a living (I realize there are trades and such where that is very possible, but that is a small overall %). Have make work programs to build infrastructure, penalize the executive management of companies that outsource everything. The barista at Starbucks does not need a degree, but I bet a higher than expected number have them.

 

[MAC_32]

Good question. I have lots of thoughts on this, but probably more questions than answers. No time to go through them all now, but wanted to start with this one. We should look at why college is getting so expensive. 

I went to a small private liberal arts college. My first year, tuition was $22k. When I graduated, tuition was about $25k. 12 years later, tuition is now $43k.  So tuition has nearly doubled in 16 years. I looked at some other colleges I originally considered and am seeing very similar stories. What is driving the cost increase? 

Every school is priced differently but many similar schools are struggling to stay open and most of those students pay substantially less than that. That's the sticker price, but it isnt anywhere near actual costs (for most students). 

 

[JohnnyU]

Good question. I have lots of thoughts on this, but probably more questions than answers. No time to go through them all now, but wanted to start with this one. We should look at why college is getting so expensive. 

I went to a small private liberal arts college. My first year, tuition was $22k. When I graduated, tuition was about $25k. 12 years later, tuition is now $43k.  So tuition has nearly doubled in 16 years. I looked at some other colleges I originally considered and am seeing very similar stories. What is driving the cost increase? 

I like this post a lot.  I also graduated from a small liberal arts college back in 1984 and my tuition cost was only a fraction of what it is today $23,000.  I can't remember exactly but I seem to remember it being around $1,700 a semester.  I didn't live on campus back then and that's another $9,000 today.  

 

[Kal El]

College for me was a waste of time. The only things I got out of it were a wife(easily the best decision I made), a $70k wall decoration, and some fun memories of playing video games. I've already told my kids that if they don't want to go to college, they don't have to, if there's a trade or something they want to do.

 

[JohnnyU]

College for me was a waste of time. The only things I got out of it were a wife(easily the best decision I made), a $70k wall decoration, and some fun memories of playing video games. I've already told my kids that if they don't want to go to college, they don't have to, if there's a trade or something they want to do.

Just the opposite for me.  I used my degree for a 35 year career that I'm approaching retirement in about 5 years.

 

[Kal El]

Just the opposite for me.  I used my degree for a 35 year career that I'm approaching retirement in about 5 years.

I got my degree in sport management in 2007. The economy took a dump, guess what jobs were the first to go? Everything worked out, though. I'm in a field that's an absolute necessity going forward, and I enjoy it immensely.

 

[JohnnyU]

I got my degree in sport management in 2007. The economy took a dump, guess what jobs were the first to go? Everything worked out, though. I'm in a field that's an absolute necessity going forward, and I enjoy it immensely.

Glad it worked out for you.

 

[Kal El]

Glad it worked out for you.

Too bad the apparent message to kids now is "Get a college degree, because that's the only way to get ahead." More like, "Everyone deserves to be neck deep in debt for a degree that is all but worthless, since colleges offer them for stupid subjects, instead of learning a trade in a field like electrical or plumbing, who are hurting for good workers and can pay far more than what that degree will get you, but it's gonna take some work."

This is why college is a racket.

 

[huthut]

Every school is priced differently but many similar schools are struggling to stay open and most of those students pay substantially less than that. That's the sticker price, but it isnt anywhere near actual costs (for most students). 

I went to a large state school, and I feel like more of the price increase is that administrators are now running colleges as if they are for-profit businesses focused on quarterly profits above all else. Biasing admissions towards international students because they pay significantly more etc. 

 

[MAC_32]

I went to a large state school, and I feel like more of the price increase is that administrators are now running colleges as if they are for-profit businesses focused on quarterly profits above all else. Biasing admissions towards international students because they pay significantly more etc. 

Perhaps. My experience is limited to smaller colleges. I think the general public perception is heavily swayed by the fewer number of large schools. Understandably, but it's important to separate the different groups. 

 

[jonessed]

Too bad the apparent message to kids now is "Get a college degree, because that's the only way to get ahead." More like, "Everyone deserves to be neck deep in debt for a degree that is all but worthless, since colleges offer them for stupid subjects, instead of learning a trade in a field like electrical or plumbing, who are hurting for good workers and can pay far more than what that degree will get you, but it's gonna take some work."

This is why college is a racket.

Some are, some aren’t.  Like any investment, you shouldn’t go into it blind.  Know what you are getting.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

With the focus on higher eductation and student loans in the 2020 election--what do you think is the most reasonable way to approach this to expend higher education and make it more affordable?

The first step is to make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy like any other consumer debt.  That will have to be phased in over 5 years or so for fairness reasons.  That alone will eliminate the majority of the for-profit fraud institutions, charlatan cosmetic schools and the like. Then, we should eliminate all government backing for student loans, but direct funds to support state schools, fund grants based on need and merit.  There will be some short term pain, perhaps even a decade or so, but ultimately tuition will come down.

 

[-OZ-]

 do you think is the most reasonable way to approach this to expend higher education and make it more affordable?

A functioning and somewhat enhanced public service repayment program would be a really good start. The basic plan itself makes sense with some refining - work for the public good, get some to all of your college debt repaid.  

I'm definitely not in favor of forgiving everyone's debt, no more than I would be forgiving all mortgage or credit card debt.  

The first step is to make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy like any other consumer debt.  

Interest rates would increase. Which might be okay. 

 

[CletiusMaximus]

The first step is to make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy like any other consumer debt.  That will have to be phased in over 5 years or so for fairness reasons.  That alone will eliminate the majority of the for-profit fraud institutions, charlatan cosmetic schools and the like. Then, we should eliminate all government backing for student loans, but direct funds to support state schools, fund grants based on need and merit.  There will be some short term pain, perhaps even a decade or so, but ultimately tuition will come down.

Joe Biden reverses course, adopts Warren bankruptcy plan which among other things would treat student loan debt the same as other unsecured consumer debt.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/us/politics/biden-warren-bankruptcy.html

 

[johnnycakes]

Real learning? 

Like what?  

Like this!  

 

[JAA]

Costs are way too high. The system is broken.

there are a lot of industries which are not getting the influx on younger people they need. My industry is currently contracting and it’s not one that can be outsourced. 

I think we start seeing a lot more 2 year programs to bring in an influx of talent.  The reality is people will eventually stop going to 4-6 year programs and accumulating 100k+ in debt. That’s a broken system. 

 

[D-Day]

First, make student loans 0% interest from the government, payable over 40 years (start paying 5 years after graduation).  Second, limit tuition, room and board, and fee increases to the level of inflation.  

Make available "extended high school".  The kid could stay at home, go to the local high school for night classes to get their first and possibly second year of base courses done.  This could even be done on-line.  

 

[JAA]

Simple: the demand. 

I'm probably in the minority view here, but I actually think that higher education is so valuable that it's worth it's current high cost. Put differently, I don't see it as a broken system and it isn't a major issue for me in the upcoming election. 

Wait till you have children

 

[JAA]

Real learning? 

Like what?  

IMHO the social interactions are important. I also believe living away from family can be important. It was for me. 

 

[JAA]

College for me was a waste of time. The only things I got out of it were a wife(easily the best decision I made), a $70k wall decoration, and some fun memories of playing video games. I've already told my kids that if they don't want to go to college, they don't have to, if there's a trade or something they want to do.

Not sure you can say it was a wage of time unless you qualify and quantify The decoration on your wall. 

 

[JAA]

I went to a large state school, and I feel like more of the price increase is that administrators are now running colleges as if they are for-profit businesses focused on quarterly profits above all else. Biasing admissions towards international students because they pay significantly more etc. 

Could you imagine if a university wrote a check back to parents of any profits instead of pocketing it themselves?

Never happen because then the incentive would be gone. However, I feel like that would be a desirable university to attend. 

 

[JAA]

The first step is to make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy like any other consumer debt.  That will have to be phased in over 5 years or so for fairness reasons.  That alone will eliminate the majority of the for-profit fraud institutions, charlatan cosmetic schools and the like. Then, we should eliminate all government backing for student loans, but direct funds to support state schools, fund grants based on need and merit.  There will be some short term pain, perhaps even a decade or so, but ultimately tuition will come down.

Does that mean you are for direct lending?  I think I’m against it but I’d like to hear your opinion. 

 

[Kal El]

Not sure you can say it was a wage of time unless you qualify and quantify The decoration on your wall. 

Well, since I'm not using it in my chosen field, I believe that it qualifies as a waste of time, from a career standpoint. I did meet my wife in college, so that was well worth it.

 

[JAA]

Well, since I'm not using it in my chosen field, I believe that it qualifies as a waste of time, from a career standpoint. I did meet my wife in college, so that was well worth it.

Sometimes the journey is what’s valuable

 

[huthut]

Also, part of the increase in cost is due to lower state/federal funding that was partially subsidizing the cost of college starting ~1980, though that does not account for all of the increased prices today.

I would be against colleges becoming more online, I feel at least 60% of college is teaching people how to live independently as an adult, which will be lost if you are still living with your parents taking classes online.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Well, since I'm not using it in my chosen field, I believe that it qualifies as a waste of time, from a career standpoint.

i don't think that you are necessarily looking at that the right way.

 

[Zow]

Wait till you have children

I have four of them.