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Hip drop tackle: what is it? Should it be a penalty? Will the refs even be able to identify and call it correctly? (1 Viewer)

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pinkstapler

Footballguy
Seems to be all the rage this morning after last nights game. Already seen FF Andrews owners calling for the NFL to intervene/Logan Wilson to be suspended.

TBH, after reading about it this morning, mostly from a Rugby standpoint as it's apparently an illegal tackle in that sport, I still am not sure I totally understand it. In theory I get it, but to identify one in a full speed NFL game seems questionable. Feels like another judgement call to give refs that could wind up being a deciding factor in games when the majority of unbiased fans just want to see the game decided by the players and not the refs.

From a broader sense, supposing it does become an illegal play/penalty call; I'm wondering how defenses are supposed to tackle moving forward. Can't go high, can't go low, can't leave your feet, can't use your head, and a large part of the hip drop feels like it's coming from behind. When OCs are explicitly designing these plays in order to get 6'6 250lb tight ends in one on one matchups against LBs and DBs half their size, how exactly are they supposed to tackle them?

And from a business sense, it almost feels inevitable. Obviously the game suffers what it's stars get injured and can't be on the field, but also the NFL tends to put in rules with a bias towards boosting the offense, scoring, and big plays. So taking away another way to tackle offensive players feels like something they would be very open to doing, despite a history of not clearly defining what exactly the penalty is or how the refs will be expected to call it. After the Calvin Johnson "what is a catch" debacle that went on for what felt like a decade, and the current struggles with PI calls, a lot of super questionable roughing the QB calls, I don't feel optimistic about it.
 
It would ruin the sport if this became illegal. I don't understand this weird march toward disbelieving a violent game where you MUST WEAR protective equipment its so violent, actually results in a lot of injuries. Ratings, lawsuits, etc, there is a point where they take this too far and it hurts both of those precious aspects of the game that it seems TV Networks and Owners view as the 2 most important issues, with the actual play of the game being a distant 3rd.
 
I am not sure what would happen to tackling if this was made illegal. They have taken the horsecollar tackle too far with respect to the penalty as the majority of the penalties called now isn't a true hosecollar tackle but more of a grab up top and complete the tackle. To the hosecollar is a specific situation where the defender grabs on top of the shoulders, pulls the ball carrier back and falls on their legs. Now everytime you grab around the nameplate (even from teh side) a horsecollar is called. It's gone too far - probably in an attempt to make it easier on the officials in deciding if it is a penalty or not.

If they start calling this a personal foul things will get crazy dumb as there will be very little consistency and it will get out of hand. As terpman22 said, it's a violent game. Injuries are part of it and it's unfortunate. But with the size and speed of these guys I am not sure what else can be done.
 
I wish there was a greater emphasis among the players that they were partners as a whole and yes injuries and collisions will happen, but don’t obliverate guys on a blindside, don’t crush these Qbs and where possible don’t do these drop tackles.

That said, if he didn’t tackle Andrews like that he probably scores a TD, he’s a big beast to bring down so the defender has a job to do too
 
I think Harbaugh is just salty over the injury. He surely isn't coaching his Defense to avoid making this same style of tackle.

These injuries happen and it sucks when its to a good player. I grew up thinking Marvin Harrison Sr. was a bit soft for going down before contact and not getting the extra yards. In today's NFL that might just be the smart move to stay healthy and prolong a career. The Offense can take some of the ownership on avoiding contact if they choose, they just rarely choose to do so.
 
Smack Tripper said:
I wish there was a greater emphasis among the players that they were partners as a whole and yes injuries and collisions will happen, but don’t obliverate guys on a blindside, don’t crush these Qbs and where possible don’t do these drop tackles.

That said, if he didn’t tackle Andrews like that he probably scores a TD, he’s a big beast to bring down so the defender has a job to do too
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Imagine the flip side argument of "well why was Andrews still fighting to stay on his feet despite being wrapped up? he should have gone down for his own safety." I feel like the majority of people would say that's an asinine argument, and I can't say I disagree. But it kind of feels like that's what we would be telling the defenders. "If the offensive player is fighting through your tackle, you need to just let him go."

Part of the definition of a hip drop tackle I do agree with is that you aren't supposed to be purposefully swinging or dropping all your weight into their legs. Totally get that intention, similar to intentionally diving at the legs of a QB. But there are definitely times where it will happen incidentally. Or times where it will look like it happens, but it didn't really upon further review. While I think refs could probably have a high correct call rate taking a Justice Potter "I know it when I see it" stance, but I doubt it would be implemented that way. It tends to go the opposite direction and anytime it even feels like it may be a penalty, even when it's not, they call it.
 
I watched the play live. Saw a couple of replays and thought nothing of this tackle specifically. Then this "hip tackle" term came out. Never thought it was a thing, just thought it was a normal tackle. Maybe I'm not "hip" but this seems like nothing. Unfortunate injury on a routine tackle. Two men opposing wills. Hope they don't turn this into eliminating another way a player tackles. The horse collar? I get it. Leading with head? I get it. Defenseless player? I get it. Hip tackle? Don't get it.
 
Yeah, I worry that you make it impossible for defensive players to...play defense.

I don't think it's a dirty or evil play. I don't think there was bad intent. Logan Wilson was trying to make tackles and prevent further yards from being gained. In the case of Mark Andrews, who is a huge human, you're not just going to pull him down.

It does seem like we've seen more injuries to fantasy relevant guys that any other time in recent memory. Is that because of a tackle that has always been around? I would question if shortening the pre-season and adding another regular season game doesn't play a role.

Don't get me wrong. Andrews was injured on one play. This wasn't some progressive ankle ailment. But, the more games, the more plays, the more chance for injury.
 
I really don't think it's a new or specific type of tackle that defenders purposely try to do. It just so happens that this type of tackle seems to cause injuries more often than a "traditional" tackle, if there even is such a thing anymore. Having a behemoth drop his entire body weight onto your legs/ankles/feet is gonna injure some body parts, but so does a 1 yard rush, or a tush push, or getting tackled by two people at once, etc.

Diving at knees (see Minkah Fitzpatrick on Nick Chubb this year) is a far far worse thing IMO.
 
JIslander said:
Curious why it’s illegal in Rugby ?
Click to expand...
A rugby guy will hopefully chime in as I'm no expert about the sport. But apparently it was viewed as a dirty play that increased the chance of injury. I watched a few videos going into it, and it seems they did do a good job implementing the rule, identifying them on the field, and largely doing away with them in their sport. The nature of the game flow and how players are positioned on the field and how they normally meet each other all seem much more conducive to their success with officiating this kind of tackle though. While I get the parallels between rugby and football, I think they are still real far apart in ways that would make it a lot harder to do in the NFL though. In rugby a lot of times it was done from a more static position and was very clearly being done on purpose with the intention of trying to injure a player and you could see how they'd throw their actual body weight into an opponents legs to take them down. Few of the examples I saw even looked like what Wilson did to Andrews. But for an NFL correlation, it's kind of like when you see a defender making a leg tackle and then trying to twist the offensive players foot around backwards while they are doing it. It's obvious, purposeful, and could argue unnecessary in order to achieve the desired result of just making the tackle.
 
pinkstapler said:
I watched a few videos going into it, and it seems they did do a good job implementing the rule, identifying them on the field, and largely doing away with them in their sport. The nature of the game flow and how players are positioned on the field and how they normally meet each other all seem much more conducive to their success with officiating this kind of tackle though.
Click to expand...
I am guessing this is the reason it was implemented. I think the typical tackle plays are vastly different because of how the flow of the game happens. Seems like there is much more head on encounters rather than moving forward to catch a pass where it puts the defender in a position where the drop is the best way to achieve the tackle that isn't necessary in rugby. Game flow is probably a big difference for sure

(coming from a non-rugby guy so I may be way off base)
 
I didn't really realize it as well until he did the same thing to Lamar, he almost took both out, pretty wild!
 
I found this video which seems to do a good job of explaining and showing it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KJ9mCbS3rU

Edit to add the definition from the video:

The following guidance sets out the key indicators in determining whether a Dangerous Contact is to be considered:
1. Grip - The defending player has a grip on the attacking player
2. Rotate - The defending player uses that grip and swings or rotates their body toa position behind or to the side of the ball carrier
3. Drop - The defending player then drops their body weight directly onto the attacking players legs (as opposed to their body weight landing on the ground first to absorb most of the impact
Click to expand...
 
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It would be terrible to ban this tackle, but the NFL seems intent on ruining their own sport. "Players get hurt!" It's tackle football. Injuries are going to happen.

Might as well just change it to 2-hand touch now and get it over with.
 
LawFitz said:
Spin said:
I found this video which seems to do a good job of explaining and showing it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KJ9mCbS3rU
Click to expand...

According to the video, Wilson's hit on Andrews was a hip drop, but his hits on Lamar and Odell were not! Upon full review, I'd be okay with the Andrews tackle being outlawed, but if all three are, then tackle football is dead.
Click to expand...
The challenge is identifying it for sure (they'll get it wrong 90% of the time I guarantee it) but another challenge is that it's not always an intentional thing.

I didn't see the tackle on Andrews as intentionally trying to do anything except bring own a huge TE and prevent him from scoring a TD.

And with both players in mid-air at full speed, that's just gravity sometimes. Players get tangled, **** happens. I don't see a need for a rules change. If they do try to implement this, then I agree - might as well go with flag football, because this one will be impossible to accurately police.
 
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Soulfly3 said:
the pussification of the NFL is in full swing.

the real reason flag football is now an olympic sport is because that's basically what we'll all be watching in a few years anyways. great stuff :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Browns fans... burn it all down! :laugh:
 
Godsbrother said:
I've been watching football my entire life and never heard of the term "hip drop tackle". I am sorry for the injury but it looked like a legal hit to me
Click to expand...
I never did either but it appears to me to be a coached technique now, I certainly never saw it watching or playing until these past few years
 
Godsbrother said:
I've been watching football my entire life and never heard of the term "hip drop tackle". I am sorry for the injury but it looked like a legal hit to me
Click to expand...

I hate when a term comes out of nowhere and all of a sudden "the experts" start using it as if it has been normally used for the past 50 years...on a separate note we have been having changes to what is legal with regard to tackling and there is less and less real contact allowed in camp and practice...kind of a disconnect if you what to perfect the correct way to tackle.
 
That's the same type of tackle that hurt Mahomes in the playoffs last year. And countless other guys.

What it looks like to me is these guys are sliding the weight of their bodies down on the guy's legs as a technique versus wrapping them up and driving through the tackle.

But maybe this is a by-product of the NFL stressing for the last few years not to tackle and put your full body weight on a guy as he falls to the ground.
 
ChiefD said:
That's the same type of tackle that hurt Mahomes in the playoffs last year. And countless other guys.

What it looks like to me is these guys are sliding the weight of their bodies down on the guy's legs as a technique versus wrapping them up and driving through the tackle.

But maybe this is a by-product of the NFL stressing for the last few years not to tackle and put your full body weight on a guy as he falls to the ground.
Click to expand...
I don't think the intent is to drop the weight into the legs.

I think the idea of a hip drop tackle (probably more aptly named a weight drop tackle) is to just go dead weight while you've got someone wrapped up from behind.

The guy is still trying to run. Your body is going to come down on his some time. I feel like these tackles happen a lot, just someone doesn't always get hurt and we move on.

I really don't think there was anything dirty from Logan Wilson here. He's competing trying to make tackles. Imagine the struggle it is to bring down someone as huge, fast and strong as Mark Andrews.
 
Dizzy said:
Lot of folks playin' dumb on here... "Why, how pray tell are you supposed to tackle someone without intentionally swinging the full weight of your hips onto their ankles when they're already going to the ground?"

Must be disgruntled horse-collar supporters.
Click to expand...
This is...a lot of things.

Rude to say anyone is playing dumb. It's bad faith conversation. It's putting words into my mouth that I did not say. If you're not able to conversate better than this, I'll avoid you. Have a good day.
 
Law of unintended consequences.

Eliminating the horse collar tackle led to more hip drop tackles and seemingly more season ending lower body injuries.

Eliminating hits up high have forced DBs to go low, also seemingly increasing season ending lower body injuries.

I mean, I get it. Safety is important, but c'mon. It's a dangerous game. These guys are modern day gladiators and they're paid like tech CEOs to do what they do. It's a career path. It's a choice.

The NFL needs to make a choice as well. Continue to damage the sport to appease the masses and lessen lawsuits, or go back to what makes football great while trying to improve safety equipment.

Or they could just go to flag football I suppose?
 
Jacob's Ladder said:
Continue to damage the sport to appease the masses and lessen lawsuits, or go back to what makes football great while trying to improve safety equipment.
Click to expand...

Or make contracts guaranteed and give the players a bigger piece of what has to be entertainment's biggest pie.

As far as the hip drag tackle goes, I can see outlawing it. It's a pretty deliberate and noticeable tackle. The thing is that it should be reviewed and enforced from upstairs rather than on the field. The NFL has the money to have officials in the sky relaying to the officials on the field what is going on.
 
rockaction said:
Jacob's Ladder said:
Continue to damage the sport to appease the masses and lessen lawsuits, or go back to what makes football great while trying to improve safety equipment.
Click to expand...

Or make contracts guaranteed and give the players a bigger piece of what has to be entertainment's biggest pie.

As far as the hip drag tackle goes, I can see outlawing it. It's a pretty deliberate and noticeable tackle. The thing is that it should be reviewed and enforced from upstairs rather than on the field. The NFL has the money to have officials in the sky relaying to the officials on the field what is going on.
Click to expand...
Intent is so hard to determine, especially at game speed.

In real time I saw nothing wrong with the tackle that broke Andrews.

It’s like a car wreck. Tackler is trying to stop Andrews. That’s his job. He best weapons are strength & gravity.

Their legs were both caught up. Sometimes you can’t control the outcome.

And the definition “wrap up the player and drop your weight down” also happens to be the definition of every other kind of tackle.
 
rockaction said:
Jacob's Ladder said:
Continue to damage the sport to appease the masses and lessen lawsuits, or go back to what makes football great while trying to improve safety equipment.
Click to expand...

Or make contracts guaranteed and give the players a bigger piece of what has to be entertainment's biggest pie.

As far as the hip drag tackle goes, I can see outlawing it. It's a pretty deliberate and noticeable tackle. The thing is that it should be reviewed and enforced from upstairs rather than on the field. The NFL has the money to have officials in the sky relaying to the officials on the field what is going on.
Click to expand...
Sorry to burst your bubble but more money equals more lawsuits, not less.

The NFL needs to be open an honest about the risks of the game including any new findings that may come to light (TBI, CTE, etc).
 
rockaction said:
Hot Sauce Guy said:
In real time I saw nothing wrong with the tackle that broke Andrews.
Click to expand...

We will have to agree to disagree because as soon as it happened, I told the person we were watching the game with that Andrews was seriously hurt. I then went back to eating dinner.
Click to expand...
Oh I knew he was hurt bad immediately.

I saw nothing wrong with the tackle that he got hurt on.

Like the announcers, I thought he got rolled up on.
 
There were articles published in October about this. It's not new. Supposedly some study found this type of tackle increased injury rates at a very significant rate. Whether we like it or not, it's likely getting banned at some point.
 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
rockaction said:
Hot Sauce Guy said:
In real time I saw nothing wrong with the tackle that broke Andrews.
Click to expand...

We will have to agree to disagree because as soon as it happened, I told the person we were watching the game with that Andrews was seriously hurt. I then went back to eating dinner.
Click to expand...
Oh I knew he was hurt bad immediately.

I saw nothing wrong with the tackle that he got hurt on.

Like the announcers, I thought he got rolled up on.
Click to expand...
I think that is the issue, this type of tackle increases the chances of being rolled up on by a significant factor.
 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
I saw nothing wrong with the tackle that he got hurt on.
Click to expand...

I knew it was the drop hip tackle right away. But that's a perception thing. I understand your position on the matter. The near-impossibility of adequate or consistent enforcement makes this almost an unpalatable rule. I say it should still be policed. But that's me.
 
rockaction said:
The near-impossibility of adequate or consistent enforcement makes this almost an unpalatable rule.
Click to expand...
That’s my biggest issue here, yes.

That, and intent. I believe one can make that tackle and by virtue of speed of the game and violence of tackling, bad outcomes can be the result of innocent intentions.
 
rockaction said:
Hot Sauce Guy said:
That, and intent.
Click to expand...

You could simply make it strict liability, like a face mask call.

Just suggesting.
Click to expand...
Well, grabbing a facemask seems pretty straightforward.

Mid-air collisions are a little less predictable. By comparison, you’re basically saying you can’t tackle someone at all, because that type of finish might result.

Like, how else could that defender have brought down Andrews at that angle, tackling low as ordained by the rules?
 
pinkstapler said:
JIslander said:
Curious why it’s illegal in Rugby ?
Click to expand...
A rugby guy will hopefully chime in as I'm no expert about the sport. But apparently it was viewed as a dirty play that increased the chance of injury. I watched a few videos going into it, and it seems they did do a good job implementing the rule, identifying them on the field, and largely doing away with them in their sport. The nature of the game flow and how players are positioned on the field and how they normally meet each other all seem much more conducive to their success with officiating this kind of tackle though. While I get the parallels between rugby and football, I think they are still real far apart in ways that would make it a lot harder to do in the NFL though. In rugby a lot of times it was done from a more static position and was very clearly being done on purpose with the intention of trying to injure a player and you could see how they'd throw their actual body weight into an opponents legs to take them down. Few of the examples I saw even looked like what Wilson did to Andrews. But for an NFL correlation, it's kind of like when you see a defender making a leg tackle and then trying to twist the offensive players foot around backwards while they are doing it. It's obvious, purposeful, and could argue unnecessary in order to achieve the desired result of just making the tackle.
Click to expand...
As someone also not familiar with all the aspects of rugby, I'd really be interested in how the officials police this during a game. From what minimal experience I have watching a rugby match on television, I see players carrying the ball and getting tackled with virtually no stoppage of play, or at a minimum the ball is quickly shuffled back to another member of the team who possessed it at the time of the tackle.

Again, like many of us on these boards, it would be interesting to hear the explanation from someone who is more familiar with the rules of the game.

I also hope that this doesn't become an illegal tackle. It's a bang-bang play, and the rules are currently stiff enough that offensive players are constantly looking to the zebras after contact, and the defensive players are wondering if they will be flagged.

I'm all in favor of player safety, but it's annoying that football players can't play football anymore.

Just my .02

- Dave
 
LawFitz said:
So how exactly are they supposed to wrap tackle from the side or behind if this technique is made illegal?
Click to expand...
It's not so much the wrap tackle, but a lot of times they don't drag at all, they grab around the chest/waist/high, pull themselves up, then swing their hips around so that their weight crashes down across the runner's back legs. That's where the term hip drop comes from, dropping their hips (and thus their entire weight) on the back of the legs. If a guy just wraps and drags that's not what they are talking about banning.

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Tony Pollard injury vs. 49ers

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You can make that tackle (attempt) without swinging the weight over. Yes, it's harder, but it's also harder to tackle a guy without grabbing his face mask or tripping him but those are penalties too.
 
Terpman22 said:
It would ruin the sport if this became illegal. I don't understand this weird march toward disbelieving a violent game where you MUST WEAR protective equipment its so violent, actually results in a lot of injuries. Ratings, lawsuits, etc, there is a point where they take this too far and it hurts both of those precious aspects of the game that it seems TV Networks and Owners view as the 2 most important issues, with the actual play of the game being a distant 3rd.
Click to expand...
Outstanding post. Football is not a contact sport; it is a collision sport. Every player knows the risk and are voluntarily participating. If someone finds it distasteful, they do not have to watch. Very much like the UFC.

To the OP, your third question answers your second question. One of the biggest issues the league faces is poor officiating. One reason is there are too many damn rules. Before making any new rules the league should start eliminating rules to make the game easier to officiate.

I propose we start by removing the illegal contact rule. It is too subjective and not uniformly enforced. I am not suggesting allowing defenders to hold, grab or tackle receiver, but let’s bring back the bump and run!
 
Hankmoody said:
LawFitz said:
So how exactly are they supposed to wrap tackle from the side or behind if this technique is made illegal?
Click to expand...
It's not so much the wrap tackle, but a lot of times they don't drag at all, they grab around the chest/waist/high, pull themselves up, then swing their hips around so that their weight crashes down across the runner's back legs. That's where the term hip drop comes from, dropping their hips (and thus their entire weight) on the back of the legs. If a guy just wraps and drags that's not what they are talking about banning.

www.youtube.com

Tony Pollard injury vs. 49ers

Subscribe to my main channel here: https://www.youtube.com/highlightheavenFollow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/highlghtheavenJoin my Discord server: htt...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

You can make that tackle (attempt) without swinging the weight over. Yes, it's harder, but it's also harder to tackle a guy without grabbing his face mask or tripping him but those are penalties too.
Click to expand...

Thanks, after watching the Rugby video above, I think I have a better handle on the concept and wouldn't be opposed to banning this type of tackle. But only if it is clear that the Andrews tackle was a hip drop and the Lamar and Odell tackles were not. If the latter two qualify as well - as many in the conversation beyond this thread are stating - then might as well just put flags on the waists and get it over.
 
Dial up rugby league or nrl hip drop tackles. Couldn’t find where it originated but there has been a few of tackle styles outlawed, that were taught by wrestlers or UFC people if memory serves correctly.

They have: hip drop, cannonball, chicken wing and crusher tackles just to name a few
 
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