HOF - Curtis Martin IN.... Bill Parcells OUT (1 Viewer)

[travdogg]

Martin seems ok to me, at least its not Bettis.

Everyone seems to be very pro-Carter should have made it, and while he was very good, just among contemporary WR's, I'd certainly take Tim Brown over him. The fact that I'm the first one to mention him, continues my belief that Brown might be the most underrated player of the last 25 years.

ETA: I'm a little surprised Parcells didn't make it too. Kind of odd Martin made it before the multiple Super Bowl champion who coached him did. Also, while I think they are both deserving of making it, Will Shields>Willie Roaf. Shields is one of the 5 best Guards in NFL History, and was still playing at an all-pro level when he retired.

 

[David Yudkin]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

 

[Mentos]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

Twice.2001 and 2004Associated Press is not the only selecting committee

 

[Mentos]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was All Pro only once. But you're tired so we'll let it slide.

Do a little research next time instead of lazily looking at the error-filled pro-football-reference.Martin was a consensus first team All-Pro in 2001 and 2004. He swept the first team honors from all the major award services in 2004. In 2001, he was first team FW and SN and second team AP.In addition to those seasons he had three other seasons where he made some sort of All-Pro team whether it be second team All-NFL or All-AFC.

Fair enough. Martin made the first team AP All Pro team only once. That's the measuring stick I use, and the one I assume most others use.

Why?Is it because you think the AP is more prestigious?Year in and year out the AP team is odd. First of all, the APteam always has 12 offensive players.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Staying injury-free as a running back is total luck and has nothing to do with strength, balance, work ethic, and controlled and functional movements.

You give me the names of ten rookie RBs who fit the criteria you list above, and lets see how many of them stay injury free for ten years in the NFL.Darren McFaddenRyan MathewsJamaal CharlesAdrian PetersonSteven JacksonDeMarco MurrayMatt ForteRashard MendenhallJahvid BestMikel LeshoureRyan Williamsetc etc etcWhich of those guys is weak? Which of them is lazy? Which has poor balance? Which lack controlled, functional movement?

I'd say you've compiled a list of oft-injured backs and you're trying to prove a point with it? Why would you do that?

I compiled a list of the best RBs in football. You listed several skills that RBs use to avoid injury. I want you to explain which skills that list of top-tier RBs lacks in order to understand why they got injured. Or are you only able to see these 'skills' after the fact?

 

[Buffaloes]

It's a shame Terrell Davis was injured. He was elite and has been passed over. Good for Martin staying healthy for his career and becoming the 4th-ranked rusher in terms of rushing yards (that is HOF worthy, imo), but I still think it's a shame that TD who was the elite RB until he was injured, won an MVP, Super Bowl MVP, ran for 2k (in a season where he spent much of games' 2nd halves sitting on the bench because the game was out of reach), won rushing title, offensive POY, won 2 Super Bowls, and was most impressive when it counted most (playoffs), etc... is snubbed because his career was cut short to injury. Although, if he had played in Dallas, NY, or Pitt, I'm pretty sure he would have been in by now...

Glad to see Tez get in...not as weak a class as I think some are making it out to be. There are 4 trench guys (Roaf, Dawson, Tez, Doleman) and Martin was a good to very good (but probably not a great by NFL terms RB) so it's not a flashy class. Parcells not getting in is pretty bad, though. Definite 1st ballot guy, imo.

 

[cobalt_27]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

 

[5Rings]

Moderators are in a bitter mood tonight. Probably the Eagle fan, Wood. Anyway, good that Carter and Bettis aren't further diluting the HOF. Perhaps an unpopular sentiment among some, but seriously, the mediocrity in that building has swelled. No reason to make the institution even more meaningless with compilers.

Curtis Martin

 

[AmosMoses]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

Twice.2001 and 2004Associated Press is not the only selecting committee

It's really only once!!

 

[cobalt_27]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

Twice.2001 and 2004Associated Press is not the only selecting committee

It's really only once!!

I think he was the fantasy MVP in our league one year in some rush attempt heavy scoring system. Maybe Mentos can revise his calculations to include that one, as well.

 

[Mentos]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

Twice.2001 and 2004Associated Press is not the only selecting committee

It's really only once!!

It is your call. Keep being an ignorant person or understand that the NFL itself recognizes the PFWA and TSN all-pro teams in their own Record & Fact Book.

 

[Mentos]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

Twice.2001 and 2004Associated Press is not the only selecting committee

It's really only once!!

I think he was the fantasy MVP in our league one year in some rush attempt heavy scoring system. Maybe Mentos can revise his calculations to include that one, as well.

There have been no revisions on my part. Take your head out of your #######.

 

[rockaction]

Staying injury-free as a running back is total luck and has nothing to do with strength, balance, work ethic, and controlled and functional movements.

You give me the names of ten rookie RBs who fit the criteria you list above, and lets see how many of them stay injury free for ten years in the NFL.Darren McFaddenRyan MathewsJamaal CharlesAdrian PetersonSteven JacksonDeMarco MurrayMatt ForteRashard MendenhallJahvid BestMikel LeshoureRyan Williamsetc etc etcWhich of those guys is weak? Which of them is lazy? Which has poor balance? Which lack controlled, functional movement?

I'd say you've compiled a list of oft-injured backs and you're trying to prove a point with it? Why would you do that?

I compiled a list of the best RBs in football. You listed several skills that RBs use to avoid injury. I want you to explain which skills that list of top-tier RBs lacks in order to understand why they got injured. Or are you only able to see these 'skills' after the fact?

Nah. This one I'm not backing off of. Nobody's going to be ballsy enough to chalk his durability up to luck other than you. How's this? When confronted with a ton of evidence (like his playing career), perhaps the onus is on you to explain why it's luck, instead of me having to explain whether his durability was due to genetics, whether it was congenital, whether it was due to strength and conditioning, will, functional movement, etc. He touched the ball more than almost anybody in history, and lasted into his thirties. You've turned me questioning your declarative into insisting that I have to isolate a quality and explain it in order to refute that it is mere luck. That's hellishly convenient for your argument.

 

[Yenrub]

Staying injury-free as a running back is total luck and has nothing to do with strength, balance, work ethic, and controlled and functional movements. Surely, it is just like rolling the dice to stay injury-free for over ten years, including leading the league in yards and success rate in your tenth year. Ask the guys who dump thousands of dollars a year in the off-season at training facilities, run with weight vests, do one-legged squats, flip tires, stabilize their knees, keep their ankles and hips flexible, eat properly, get good rest, etc. I love this. Hank Aaron, compiler of home runs and lucky in his longevity.

Seriously? You just compared Curtis Martin to Hank Aaron. That's phenomenal.

Hank Aaron hit 755 home runs, never hitting over 44. He played for twenty-two years. He never had an on-base percentage of over .403. He won one MVP and three gold gloves. If you can't see how your argument is similar, you're phenomenal.

He hit 45 in 1962 and 47 in 1971

 

[Mentos]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

Twice.2001 and 2004Associated Press is not the only selecting committee

It's really only once!!

Twice in the real world.Once in your imaginary world of ignorance.

 

[AmosMoses]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

Twice.2001 and 2004Associated Press is not the only selecting committee

It's really only once!!

Twice in the real world.Once in your imaginary world of ignorance.

Dude, you've been getting pwned all over the thread. SUCK IT

 

[cobalt_27]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

Twice.2001 and 2004Associated Press is not the only selecting committee

It's really only once!!

I think he was the fantasy MVP in our league one year in some rush attempt heavy scoring system. Maybe Mentos can revise his calculations to include that one, as well.

There have been no revisions on my part. Take your head out of your #######.

Well, given that you have been pulverized in this thread, I thought I could help out. Your mean-spirited post, aside, I'm just trying to help you document every MVP honor he's ever won, regardless of how obscure/unimportant they might seem to others.

 

[cobalt_27]

Staying injury-free as a running back is total luck and has nothing to do with strength, balance, work ethic, and controlled and functional movements. Surely, it is just like rolling the dice to stay injury-free for over ten years, including leading the league in yards and success rate in your tenth year. Ask the guys who dump thousands of dollars a year in the off-season at training facilities, run with weight vests, do one-legged squats, flip tires, stabilize their knees, keep their ankles and hips flexible, eat properly, get good rest, etc. I love this. Hank Aaron, compiler of home runs and lucky in his longevity.

Seriously? You just compared Curtis Martin to Hank Aaron. That's phenomenal.

Hank Aaron hit 755 home runs, never hitting over 44. He played for twenty-two years. He never had an on-base percentage of over .403. He won one MVP and three gold gloves. If you can't see how your argument is similar, you're phenomenal.

He hit 45 in 1962 and 47 in 1971

His on-base percentage was .410 in 1971. Plus, he was 1st in slugging percentage 4 times. He was top-3 in slugging % 13 seasons. OPS leader 3 times (top-3 10x). I mean, this is really stupid. Should we go on, or should we just move to a broader discussion about how to avoid making analogies that suck?

 

[rockaction]

Staying injury-free as a running back is total luck and has nothing to do with strength, balance, work ethic, and controlled and functional movements. Surely, it is just like rolling the dice to stay injury-free for over ten years, including leading the league in yards and success rate in your tenth year. Ask the guys who dump thousands of dollars a year in the off-season at training facilities, run with weight vests, do one-legged squats, flip tires, stabilize their knees, keep their ankles and hips flexible, eat properly, get good rest, etc. I love this. Hank Aaron, compiler of home runs and lucky in his longevity.

Seriously? You just compared Curtis Martin to Hank Aaron. That's phenomenal.

Hank Aaron hit 755 home runs, never hitting over 44. He played for twenty-two years. He never had an on-base percentage of over .403. He won one MVP and three gold gloves. If you can't see how your argument is similar, you're phenomenal.

He hit 45 in 1962 and 47 in 1971

His on-base percentage was .410 in 1971. Plus, he was 1st in slugging percentage 4 times. He was top-3 in slugging % 13 seasons. OPS leader 3 times (top-3 10x). I mean, this is really stupid. Should we go on, or should we just move to a broader discussion about how to avoid making analogies that suck?

So Martin led the league in rushing and was in the top three four times. That's 40%. He was in the top four rushers 45% of the time. I backed off it. You're a #### with a women's soccer avatar and a host of declaratives about the 4th all-time rushing leader. Congrats.

 

[cobalt_27]

Staying injury-free as a running back is total luck and has nothing to do with strength, balance, work ethic, and controlled and functional movements. Surely, it is just like rolling the dice to stay injury-free for over ten years, including leading the league in yards and success rate in your tenth year. Ask the guys who dump thousands of dollars a year in the off-season at training facilities, run with weight vests, do one-legged squats, flip tires, stabilize their knees, keep their ankles and hips flexible, eat properly, get good rest, etc. I love this. Hank Aaron, compiler of home runs and lucky in his longevity.

Seriously? You just compared Curtis Martin to Hank Aaron. That's phenomenal.

Hank Aaron hit 755 home runs, never hitting over 44. He played for twenty-two years. He never had an on-base percentage of over .403. He won one MVP and three gold gloves. If you can't see how your argument is similar, you're phenomenal.

He hit 45 in 1962 and 47 in 1971

His on-base percentage was .410 in 1971. Plus, he was 1st in slugging percentage 4 times. He was top-3 in slugging % 13 seasons. OPS leader 3 times (top-3 10x). I mean, this is really stupid. Should we go on, or should we just move to a broader discussion about how to avoid making analogies that suck?

So Martin led the league in rushing and was in the top three four times. That's 40%. He was in the top four rushers 45% of the time. I backed off it. You're a #### with a women's soccer avatar and a host of declaratives about the 4th all-time rushing leader. Congrats.

Curtis Martin was a fine football player. He compiled a lot of stats over a nice, healthy career. I'm happy you're happy that he is in the HOF. Since you seem so keen on my avatar to reference it now twice in this thread, perhaps we need to correct you on another factual misstep of yours. The Portland Breakers were a USFL team back when I was growing up. In Portland. That was their logo.It has nothing to do with a women's soccer team. Time to move on from Hank Aaron and my avatar. They are two topics that are not treating you well here.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

Yeah sorry. Was tired. Point is, no similarity at all to Hank Aaron.

 

[rockaction]

Staying injury-free as a running back is total luck and has nothing to do with strength, balance, work ethic, and controlled and functional movements. Surely, it is just like rolling the dice to stay injury-free for over ten years, including leading the league in yards and success rate in your tenth year. Ask the guys who dump thousands of dollars a year in the off-season at training facilities, run with weight vests, do one-legged squats, flip tires, stabilize their knees, keep their ankles and hips flexible, eat properly, get good rest, etc. I love this. Hank Aaron, compiler of home runs and lucky in his longevity.

Seriously? You just compared Curtis Martin to Hank Aaron. That's phenomenal.

Hank Aaron hit 755 home runs, never hitting over 44. He played for twenty-two years. He never had an on-base percentage of over .403. He won one MVP and three gold gloves. If you can't see how your argument is similar, you're phenomenal.

He hit 45 in 1962 and 47 in 1971

His on-base percentage was .410 in 1971. Plus, he was 1st in slugging percentage 4 times. He was top-3 in slugging % 13 seasons. OPS leader 3 times (top-3 10x). I mean, this is really stupid. Should we go on, or should we just move to a broader discussion about how to avoid making analogies that suck?

So Martin led the league in rushing and was in the top three four times. That's 40%. He was in the top four rushers 45% of the time. I backed off it. You're a #### with a women's soccer avatar and a host of declaratives about the 4th all-time rushing leader. Congrats.

Curtis Martin was a fine football player. He compiled a lot of stats over a nice, healthy career. I'm happy you're happy that he is in the HOF. Since you seem so keen on my avatar to reference it now twice in this thread, perhaps we need to correct you on another factual misstep of yours. The Portland Breakers were a USFL team back when I was growing up. In Portland.It has nothing to do with a women's soccer team.

That actually is funny. I hope you enjoyed them in your youth. Back to the topic: "Curtis Martin was a fine football player. He compiled a lot of stats over a nice, healthy career."Needs moar declaratives.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

You've turned me questioning your declarative into insisting that I have to isolate a quality and explain it in order to refute that it is mere luck. That's hellishly convenient for your argument.

I say it's luck. You replied by listing a series of skills.I'm asking you to explain why other, good to great, RBs who would appear to have the same set of skills you list get hurt? I think it's random and you're looking at the results after the fact and trying to explain them with a bunch of hocus pocus that would be absolutely useless in terms of predicting injuries going forward.We can leave it at we just disagree, but I actually do want to hear you say that Adrian Peterson is lazy. Or Jamaal Charles lacks balance. Or whatever.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

To be fair, the way I somewhat get rid of "compilers" when talking about HOF worthiness is to consider how often the player was reasonably considered among the top 3 at his position. You need a decent number of those years and then some longevity to be a HOF player. The longevity line is the difference between Gale Sayers and Terrell Davis. Sayers was extraordinary (based on film and contemporary accounts) for 5 season. Davis was outstanding for 5 seasons. Just not quite enough.

So when I think about Curtis Martin, I think he was reasonable considered among the three best RBs in the NFL probably 2 times in his career. I would guess that Aaron was considered one of the 3 best right fielders in baseball 9 or 10 different years. Several of those years he was likely considered one of the 3 best overall outfielders in baseball. That's a big difference based on how I measure HOF credentials. Maybe it isn't for you.

 

[identikit]

Pat Kirwin of NFL.com wrote that there might have been a sentiment in the voting room that Bill Parcells might work in the NFL again as a team president, which could've made some voters reluctant to put him in Canton right now. There also will be some speculation that Parcells rubbed some of the media the wrong way during his career, derailing his chances of a first-year election. Parcells won two Super Bowls with the Giants, won an AFC championship with the Patriots, led the Jets to the AFC title game and might have done the same for the Cowboys in the NFC if Tony Romo hadn't bobbled the snap on a chip-shot field goal.







http://gridironfans.com/forums/latest-nfl-headlines/181266-bill-parcells-snubbed-hall-fame-over-possible.html

 

[Buffaloes]

Sayers was extraordinary (based on film and contemporary accounts) for 5 season. Davis was outstanding for 5 seasons. Just not quite enough.

I wasn't around to see Sayers, but I have heard similar statements. As for TD, I am a homer, but I am wondering what more he would have had to accomplish for those 5 years to be considered extraordinary. Especially considering his play in the postseason.

 

[rockaction]

I don't think we agree to disagree. There's an element of luck in everything, I'm not going to deny that. But to deny the other factors like work ethic, strength, will, conditioning, genetics, balance and symmetry, vision, learning how to get hit, etc., is not something I'm willing to do when injuries tend to regress to the mean, and Martin has a whole host of evidence to back up that he was exceptional. I don't think I'd say he's lucky. It diminishes a pretty legendary thing, which is to stay that healthy that long.

"Considering that Martin was always well known for his workout routines, and for being one of the most fit players in the NFL, it really makes Barry Sanders look very smart. Curtis Martin, despite being physically fit and an iron man, substained [sic] one serious injury to his knee, and that was that... he still has a bone on bone situation in his knee, and it's not out of line to assume that he'll never run, jog or maybe even walk without pain or difficulty again." - Mike Lupica, NY Daily News, from, ironically StopMikeLupica, which must be like FireJoeMorgan

But the point is there, and other web sites seem to reference his "maniacal" work ethic.

I'm not going to deny Adrian Peterson has balance. And he's actually been pretty durable. I'm not sure how I'm in the position of having to say something like "well, his left hip abductor rotates incorrectly, putting pressure on his..." I mean, that's patently ridiculous. Sometimes the proof is in the pudding -- sometimes it's genetic, sometimes it's congenital, sometimes it's will, etc., sometimes it's luck. I guess we can't know. You can call it luck all you want and take a poll.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/26/sports/football/falcons-have-winning-fitness-strategy.html?_r=2&hpw

There's a whole industry growing up around sports fitness. Red Sox fans, maybe like cobalt_27, will know about the Red Sox and their shoulder program. No, it won't avoid all injuries, and it's only what you make of it, but there are steps to be taken beforehand.

*eta -- this is for wdcrob

 

[Mentos]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

Twice.2001 and 2004Associated Press is not the only selecting committee

It's really only once!!

I think he was the fantasy MVP in our league one year in some rush attempt heavy scoring system. Maybe Mentos can revise his calculations to include that one, as well.

There have been no revisions on my part. Take your head out of your #######.

Well, given that you have been pulverized in this thread, I thought I could help out. Your mean-spirited post, aside, I'm just trying to help you document every MVP honor he's ever won, regardless of how obscure/unimportant they might seem to others.

You actually were owned. You don't know it, though, because you and your other bully friend are incredibly ignorant. It is absolute fact that Martin was first team all-NFL in 2001 and 2004. That is what we are discussing. I am right You are wrong. You got pwned. End of discussion. Move along.

 

[Mentos]

Sayers was extraordinary (based on film and contemporary accounts) for 5 season. Davis was outstanding for 5 seasons. Just not quite enough.

I wasn't around to see Sayers, but I have heard similar statements. As for TD, I am a homer, but I am wondering what more he would have had to accomplish for those 5 years to be considered extraordinary. Especially considering his play in the postseason.

Difference between the two are that Sayers was a great returner. Sayers was first team all-NFL 5 times. Davis cannot match that.I would support Davis being in the Hall, though.

 

[Tau837]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was All Pro only once. But you're tired so we'll let it slide.

Do a little research next time instead of lazily looking at the error-filled pro-football-reference.Martin was a consensus first team All-Pro in 2001 and 2004. He swept the first team honors from all the major award services in 2004. In 2001, he was first team FW and SN and second team AP.In addition to those seasons he had three other seasons where he made some sort of All-Pro team whether it be second team All-NFL or All-AFC.

If not specified otherwise, when people refer to All Pro selections, they generally mean AP All Pro selections (or UPI if you go back to years that precede AP selections).What makes PFR "error filled", particularly as relates to this subject?

 

[cobalt_27]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

Twice.2001 and 2004Associated Press is not the only selecting committee

It's really only once!!

I think he was the fantasy MVP in our league one year in some rush attempt heavy scoring system. Maybe Mentos can revise his calculations to include that one, as well.

There have been no revisions on my part. Take your head out of your #######.

Well, given that you have been pulverized in this thread, I thought I could help out. Your mean-spirited post, aside, I'm just trying to help you document every MVP honor he's ever won, regardless of how obscure/unimportant they might seem to others.

You actually were owned. You don't know it, though, because you and your other bully friend are incredibly ignorant. It is absolute fact that Martin was first team all-NFL in 2001 and 2004. That is what we are discussing. I am right You are wrong. You got pwned. End of discussion. Move along.

2nd team AP All Pro in 2001. 1st team honors went to Marshall Faulk, who had over 2000 yards from scrimmage and 21 TDs...in 14 games no less.. Martin had a nice year, too (1800 yards, 10 TDs), but clearly not what Faulk achieved. Which is why the AP chose Faulk over Martin, and the AP (for reasons you might now understand) is the only source that really matters or is ever discussed in these conversations.

 

[Tau837]

Also, while I think they are both deserving of making it, Will Shields>Willie Roaf. Shields is one of the 5 best Guards in NFL History, and was still playing at an all-pro level when he retired.

I think it's very hard to make such definitive statements about an offensive lineman. What objective evidence is there besides All Pro selections, Pro Bowl selections, and All Decade teams? Certainly, contributing to very highly ranked offenses is a plus, but how to separate responsibility among all OL, QBs, RBs, and other players? Same with being on strong postseason teams... how to fairly assign responsbility to a particular offensive lineman?Here is a post I made in the other HOF thread on Shields:

I think Shields is getting a little too much love here. Consider these guards:Matthews: 14 seasons, 7 1st team All Pro selections, 3 2nd team All Pro selections, 14 Pro Bowl selections, 0 ringsMcDaniel: 14 seasons, 7 1st team All Pro selections, 2 2nd team All Pro selections, 12 Pro Bowl selections, 0 ringsAllen: 14 seasons, 6 1st team All Pro selections, 1 2nd team All Pro selection, 11 Pro Bowl selections, 1 ringFaneca: 13 seasons, 6 1st team All Pro selections, 2 2nd team All Pro selections, 9 Pro Bowl selections, 1 ringHutchinson: 11 seasons, 5 1st team All Pro selections, 2 2nd team All Pro selections, 7 Pro Bowl selections, 0 ringsShields: 14 seasons, 2 1st team All Pro selections, 4 2nd team All Pro selections, 12 Pro Bowl selections, 0 ringsAnd consider these other OL contemporariesawson: 13 seasons, 6 1st team All Pro selections, 0 2nd team All Pro selections, 7 Pro Bowl selections, 0 ringsOgden: 12 seasons, 4 1st team All Pro selections, 5 2nd team All Pro selections, 11 Pro Bowl selections, 1 ringRoaf: 13 seasons, 3 1st team All Pro selections, 6 2nd team All Pro selections, 11 Pro Bowl selections, 0 ringsWalter Jones: 12 seasons, 4 1st team All Pro selections, 2 2nd team All Pro selections, 9 Pro Bowl selections, 1 ringPace: 13 seasons, 3 1st team All Pro selections, 1 2nd team All Pro selection, 7 Pro Bowl selections, 1 ringThere are some other relevant factors, like blocking for top offenses, MVPs, and 2000 yard seasons.Don't get me wrong, I think Shields will ultimately make it, and he should IMO. However, I think most of the other OL identified here, maybe all of them, are more deserving, including all of the other guards. In particular, I think it is fairly clear that both Dawson and Roaf are more deserving, which is enough IMO for Shields to wait another year.All that said, I think it is difficult to effectively compare offensive linemen. If there are counterpoints that help Shields, I'm interested in seeing them.

Basically, you are saying you think Shields was better than all but 4 other guards from among those identified here and all guards already in the HOF. Seems like a position that is very hard to justify IMO.

 

[Tau837]

To be fair, the way I somewhat get rid of "compilers" when talking about HOF worthiness is to consider how often the player was reasonably considered among the top 3 at his position. You need a decent number of those years and then some longevity to be a HOF player. The longevity line is the difference between Gale Sayers and Terrell Davis. Sayers was extraordinary (based on film and contemporary accounts) for 5 season. Davis was outstanding for 5 seasons. Just not quite enough.

Sayers was All NFL in all 5 seasons in which he played at least 9 games. He was elite every season he was healthy.Davis was not elite in all of his seasons. First of all, Davis only played 4 healthy seasons, not 5 as you say above. And Davis was only elite in 3 of them. I'm not knocking him, but he did not achieve the same level of success as Sayers.It is a comparison that people constantly bring up in an effort to elevate Davis, but, unfortunately, most people do not have enough of an appreciation of Sayers' career to know that it was quite a bit more impressive than Davis's.

 

[Tau837]

Sayers was extraordinary (based on film and contemporary accounts) for 5 season. Davis was outstanding for 5 seasons. Just not quite enough.

I wasn't around to see Sayers, but I have heard similar statements. As for TD, I am a homer, but I am wondering what more he would have had to accomplish for those 5 years to be considered extraordinary. Especially considering his play in the postseason.

Davis did not perform at the highest level for 5 seasons. He did it for 3 seasons. So one thing more that he could have done was to perform better as a rookie or better after return from his initial injury. Unfortunately for him, he didn't.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

To be fair, the way I somewhat get rid of "compilers" when talking about HOF worthiness is to consider how often the player was reasonably considered among the top 3 at his position. You need a decent number of those years and then some longevity to be a HOF player. The longevity line is the difference between Gale Sayers and Terrell Davis. Sayers was extraordinary (based on film and contemporary accounts) for 5 season. Davis was outstanding for 5 seasons. Just not quite enough.

Sayers was All NFL in all 5 seasons in which he played at least 9 games. He was elite every season he was healthy.Davis was not elite in all of his seasons. First of all, Davis only played 4 healthy seasons, not 5 as you say above. And Davis was only elite in 3 of them. I'm not knocking him, but he did not achieve the same level of success as Sayers.It is a comparison that people constantly bring up in an effort to elevate Davis, but, unfortunately, most people do not have enough of an appreciation of Sayers' career to know that it was quite a bit more impressive than Davis's.

Thanks.

 

[jwb]

Funny how polarizing Martin is. Prettymuch zero buzz here in NY. Nothing like "our great player was enshrined".

The NY Daily News was all over Parcells not getting in, giving him the back page and having Lupica write the piece. Even the one story about Martin getting in was half about Parcells not getting in.

 

[rockaction]

So the staff member or admin (Chase Stuart) that sort of gave a thumbs-up to a comment of mine wrote a column about Curtis over at Pro-Football-Reference. These are some of the things I would have pointed to if I wasn't hung up with the Hank Aaron thing. I think commenters "Vince" and "Boston Giant" make the best points against. I'm not sure one or two of the authorial points hold up, like the QB issue of Lucas and Mirer, but I think it's a strong argument, even if we would disagree on the total yards thing. (Or is it just because I'm locked into my argument?). Anyway, the article:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=8592

Even better was that this was from the comments, which just made snerf. Glad I am not the only one on the interwebz to succumb to the temptation.

Jim Glass Says:

February 4th, 2011 at 7:09 pm

The "compiler" argument against him I just don't get. I'd think it would be *good* to "compile" the 4th-most yards all-time and ten consecutive 1,000+-yd seasons.

Hank Aaron was the great "compiler" of baseball. He never had a single season that even near matched the best of his contemporaries Mantle, Mays, or even Roger Maris -- but he compiled one very good season after another forever, to surpass their totals. People consider him an all-time great for it. Martin is the near Aaron of NFL running backs, having surpassed the totals of a list of HoF running backs that would run down your arm -- yet people hold it against him. Go figure.

*eta: this article also adds some insight into Martin's durability, either as a function of conditioning or will. I remember the ankle year, and how he played through it, still gaining around 1,100 yards or so.

 

[Mentos]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

Twice.2001 and 2004Associated Press is not the only selecting committee

It's really only once!!

I think he was the fantasy MVP in our league one year in some rush attempt heavy scoring system. Maybe Mentos can revise his calculations to include that one, as well.

There have been no revisions on my part. Take your head out of your #######.

Well, given that you have been pulverized in this thread, I thought I could help out. Your mean-spirited post, aside, I'm just trying to help you document every MVP honor he's ever won, regardless of how obscure/unimportant they might seem to others.

You actually were owned. You don't know it, though, because you and your other bully friend are incredibly ignorant. It is absolute fact that Martin was first team all-NFL in 2001 and 2004. That is what we are discussing. I am right You are wrong. You got pwned. End of discussion. Move along.

2nd team AP All Pro in 2001. 1st team honors went to Marshall Faulk, who had over 2000 yards from scrimmage and 21 TDs...in 14 games no less.. Martin had a nice year, too (1800 yards, 10 TDs), but clearly not what Faulk achieved. Which is why the AP chose Faulk over Martin, and the AP (for reasons you might now understand) is the only source that really matters or is ever discussed in these conversations.

Then you are doing a disservice to yourself and this forum The NFL OFFICIALLY listed Curtis Martin, Priest Holmes and Marshall Faulk as first team All-NFL in 2001.You can either accept the facts or tell me to suck it again. Your choice.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Pat Kirwin of NFL.com wrote that there might have been a sentiment in the voting room that Bill Parcells might work in the NFL again as a team president, which could've made some voters reluctant to put him in Canton right now. There also will be some speculation that Parcells rubbed some of the media the wrong way during his career, derailing his chances of a first-year election. Parcells won two Super Bowls with the Giants, won an AFC championship with the Patriots, led the Jets to the AFC title game and might have done the same for the Cowboys in the NFC if Tony Romo hadn't bobbled the snap on a chip-shot field goal.







http://gridironfans....r-possible.html

This

 

[Mentos]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia. Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was All Pro only once. But you're tired so we'll let it slide.

Do a little research next time instead of lazily looking at the error-filled pro-football-reference.Martin was a consensus first team All-Pro in 2001 and 2004. He swept the first team honors from all the major award services in 2004. In 2001, he was first team FW and SN and second team AP.In addition to those seasons he had three other seasons where he made some sort of All-Pro team whether it be second team All-NFL or All-AFC.

If not specified otherwise, when people refer to All Pro selections, they generally mean AP All Pro selections (or UPI if you go back to years that precede AP selections).What makes PFR "error filled", particularly as relates to this subject?

PFR is too hetero for Mentos

You are an absolute disgrace. If this is the type of garbage I will have to deal with on a regular basis on this website, I will gladly step away. What a bunch of clowns you two are. I will e-mail Chase about your reactions in this thread.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

You're going to tell Dad?!?

 

[cobalt_27]

You are an absolute disgrace.

If this is the type of garbage I will have to deal with on a regular basis on this website, I will gladly step away. What a bunch of clowns you two are. I will e-mail Chase about your reactions in this thread.

 

[cobalt_27]

Had to look before I went to bed. All stats by Wikipedia.

Martin: Pro Bowl 5 times, All Pro 5 times, Rushing Yards leader 1 time (2004)

Aaron: All Star 21 times, Couldn't find Sporting News All Pro listing, Batting Avg leader 2 times, HR leader 4 times, RBI leader 4 times

Martin was a first team all-pro only once.

Twice.2001 and 2004

Associated Press is not the only selecting committee

It's really only once!!

I think he was the fantasy MVP in our league one year in some rush attempt heavy scoring system. Maybe Mentos can revise his calculations to include that one, as well.

There have been no revisions on my part. Take your head out of your #######.

Well, given that you have been pulverized in this thread, I thought I could help out. Your mean-spirited post, aside, I'm just trying to help you document every MVP honor he's ever won, regardless of how obscure/unimportant they might seem to others.

You actually were owned. You don't know it, though, because you and your other bully friend are incredibly ignorant. It is absolute fact that Martin was first team all-NFL in 2001 and 2004. That is what we are discussing. I am right

You are wrong. You got pwned. End of discussion. Move along.

2nd team AP All Pro in 2001. 1st team honors went to Marshall Faulk, who had over 2000 yards from scrimmage and 21 TDs...in 14 games no less.. Martin had a nice year, too (1800 yards, 10 TDs), but clearly not what Faulk achieved. Which is why the AP chose Faulk over Martin, and the AP (for reasons you might now understand) is the only source that really matters or is ever discussed in these conversations.

Then you are doing a disservice to yourself and this forumThe NFL OFFICIALLY listed Curtis Martin, Priest Holmes and Marshall Faulk as first team All-NFL in 2001.

You can either accept the facts or tell me to suck it again.

Your choice.

Reading comprehension is a required asset when posting in teh SP. While inconvenient to your argument, the AP is the only one anyone ever really recognizes...the PFW and TSN are simply not as relevant (It's sort of like winning a Golden Globe but being a runner up in the Academy Awards). So, I'll wait for you to return with your listing of Martin as the AP 1st team in 2001, I think you know what you can do. And, gladly stepping away might be your only recourse at this point. As a Jets fan, it's understandable that you want to back your guy. Just take the time to read what others have written (e.g., "2nd team AP All Pro in 2001"), get your facts together from the correct source, and you'll be ok.

 

[Mentos]

Nobody cares if Martin was a one time or two time 1st team all-pro. He did not make the HOF based on the flawed all-pro voting system. The Associated Press? Really? You ever actually look at their yearly choices? Justin Smith made the team at two positions this year because the voters are not on the same page (granted Smith does play both tackle and end). 12 players on offense. Two left tackles. Every year the AP team is released people ##### about it online. I see it every year on multiple forums. (Do not recall looking at an all-pro thread here only because this is my #5 forum and only go here when bored.)

You can go on being an ignorant clown. I will post elsewhere if classless responses such as, "SUCK IT" are the norm.