Houshmandzadeh vs. Johnson (1 Viewer)

[valhallan]

One thing that has always bothered me is the Chad Johnson haters that love to say T.J. is the better receiver. Many of us in the Chad-is-a-true-difference-maker camp have contended that TJ would suffer greatly without Ocho drawing double coverage on the other side. So last night with no CJ (who hadn't missed a game since his rookie year) and his quarterback throwing 37 times, TJ hauled in 4 passes for 20 yards. Before we chalk this up to Pittsburgh's defense, let's examine TJ's last several performances against the Steelers with Chad in the lineup:

7-75

5-88-2

9-94-2

4-44

7-81-1

5-42

8-58

Total 45-482-5

Avg 6.4-68.9-0.7

Every game was better than last night, including 8-58 from earlier this season. Meanwhile, here are the last 4 games CJ has played without Housh's scary talent drawing coverage on the other side:

8-135-1

5-52-1

6-78-1

5-48

Total 24-313-3

Avg 6-78.25-0.75

In my opinion, TJ is a good possession receiver whose numbers reflect his role as the guy that runs short cross and short out routes as well as his teammate's ability to draw double coverage more than they reflect his actual level of talent. CJ, on the other hand, was drafted earlier in the same draft by the same franchise and made the Pro Bowl three times before Housh broke 1,000 yards.

Moral of the story: take your PPR production from TJ and be happy. But don't delude yourself into thinking he's the better receiver and doesn't need CJ to maintain his production.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

By this logic, Wes Welker is a better receiver than Randy Moss.

Apples and oranges in both cases...

 

[MAC_32]

It's only one game, but it's a good first step for the Chad Johnson make Housh crowd. Fitz looked like he was forcing the ball to Housh often times last night, Housh just wasn't open. I realize the Steeler defense is elite, but Housh was clearly over matched last night when he drew the additional attention of a defense.

 

[SayWhat?]

I would also contend that Chad Johnson is the better receiver. But the problem with your logic is that in a majority of those games you cite, Carson Palmer was the quarterback. Unfortunately, Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't in the same league as Palmer when it comes down to it so using last nights game doesn't really say much IMO.

 

[valhallan]

I would also contend that Chad Johnson is the better receiver. But the problem with your logic is that in a majority of those games you cite, Carson Palmer was the quarterback. Unfortunately, Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't in the same league as Palmer when it comes down to it so using last nights game doesn't really say much IMO.

Point taken, but that's why I singled out the 8-58 from earlier this season.

 

[Phurfur]

But if you are picking one of these two to be on your team eould you choose Johnson? There is no way this guy could play for me.

 

[Kuz]

I would also contend that Chad Johnson is the better receiver. But the problem with your logic is that in a majority of those games you cite, Carson Palmer was the quarterback. Unfortunately, Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't in the same league as Palmer when it comes down to it so using last nights game doesn't really say much IMO.

not to mention the Steelers have a pretty good defense..

 

[valhallan]

I would also contend that Chad Johnson is the better receiver. But the problem with your logic is that in a majority of those games you cite, Carson Palmer was the quarterback. Unfortunately, Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't in the same league as Palmer when it comes down to it so using last nights game doesn't really say much IMO.

not to mention the Steelers have a pretty good defense..

...which is why the 7 games I posted for TJ were vs Pittsburgh

 

[packersfan]

I would also contend that Chad Johnson is the better receiver. But the problem with your logic is that in a majority of those games you cite, Carson Palmer was the quarterback. Unfortunately, Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't in the same league as Palmer when it comes down to it so using last nights game doesn't really say much IMO.

not to mention the Steelers have a pretty good defense..

Yup. The problem I saw last night wasn't with with T.J. but with the fact Fitzpatrick is awful and the Steelers are pretty darn good defensively. In terms of "talent," I'd give the nod to Johnson. He's a very talented WR. But I've always believed that Housh is underrated and if I had to pick one of them for my team (taking everything into account, including off-the-field stuff), I'd take TJ. He's a talented WR and he doesn't bring anything near the baggage Johnson has.

 

[munchkin]

How many targets did CJ get last night? He doesn't make a team better by sitting on the sidelines. Housh doesn't have CJ's talent but he also doesn't have his abysmal attitude.

 

[Lott's Fingertip]

While I agree with the OP's assertion that Housh has benefitted from having Johnson across from him and that Johnson is the better talent, and I think the OP did as good a job as can be done putting the data together, it is ultimately not enough data to draw a conclusion from. Housh would almost certainly do better by himself against a lesser defense than Pitt.

Housh is a good, solid WR, but probably not a true NFL #1. Great PPR fantasy WR, though.

 

[Lott's Fingertip]

How many targets did CJ get last night? He doesn't make a team better by sitting on the sidelines. Housh doesn't have CJ's talent but he also doesn't have his abysmal attitude.

CJ can be a tool off the field, but he leaves it all on the field on Sundays. This was only his 1st game missed. Housh has missed many more games than CJ; whether it's by injury or behavior doesn't mean much for those 60 minutes on Sunday.

 

[Yitbos69]

CJ is better than Housh......CJ make Housh Better.......

 

[Banger]

CJ is better than Housh......CJ make Housh Better.......

I agree with this. Housh is a good not great wr. He's the type of guy that if he leaves via free agency and signs a big contract to be the #1 guy going up against the #1 corner each week he'd struggle. He's a terrific #2, low end #1.

 

[Phurfur]

How many targets did CJ get last night? He doesn't make a team better by sitting on the sidelines. Housh doesn't have CJ's talent but he also doesn't have his abysmal attitude.

CJ can be a tool off the field, but he leaves it all on the field on Sundays. This was only his 1st game missed. Housh has missed many more games than CJ; whether it's by injury or behavior doesn't mean much for those 60 minutes on Sunday.

Not the whining complaining CJ I know. He plays when he wants to play, don't kid yourself.

 

[notdarkyet]

Chad not being there wasnt why Housh had bad numbers. The Oline featuring a couple rooks, coupled with Fitzpatrick missing him, coupled with bad playcalling and lack of running game were all greater factors.

 

[trader jake]

Who are these people who believe that TJ is more talented than CJ?

 

[valhallan]

Who are these people who believe that TJ is more talented than CJ?

It would take quite a while to dig up some posts, but I think anyone who has frequented threads involving Cinci has seen "TJ is the best receiver on that team" or some variation thereof several times. Up until now, there was no way to tell how TJ would play without Chad so the debate was impossible to have. However, we saw last night that he struggled to get open so I think we finally have something to go on.

 

[Banger]

Who are these people who believe that TJ is more talented than CJ?

It would take quite a while to dig up some posts, but I think anyone who has frequented threads involving Cinci has seen "TJ is the best receiver on that team" or some variation thereof several times. Up until now, there was no way to tell how TJ would play without Chad so the debate was impossible to have. However, we saw last night that he struggled to get open so I think we finally have something to go on.

I think CJ is better than TJ but I think it's a big stretch to take anything from last night's game. I never put much weight at all into a single game especially against one of the toughest defenses at home in a prime time game. In the same situation if TJ were out and CJ were lone wideout I doubt the results would have been much different. That team is in shambles, they are quiting on their coach, they have no QB, no line and a below average running game. This is a lost year for that team and the players.

 

[fantasyplayer]

Who are these people who believe that TJ is more talented than CJ?

It would take quite a while to dig up some posts, but I think anyone who has frequented threads involving Cinci has seen "TJ is the best receiver on that team" or some variation thereof several times. Up until now, there was no way to tell how TJ would play without Chad so the debate was impossible to have. However, we saw last night that he struggled to get open so I think we finally have something to go on.

I think CJ is better than TJ but I think it's a big stretch to take anything from last night's game. I never put much weight at all into a single game especially against one of the toughest defenses at home in a prime time game. In the same situation if TJ were out and CJ were lone wideout I doubt the results would have been much different. That team is in shambles, they are quiting on their coach, they have no QB, no line and a below average running game. This is a lost year for that team and the players.

One game in bad weather with the back up QB against the best defense in the NFL is probably not a sufficient sample size.

 

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Chad Johnson isn't even doing anything with TJ there to help him. So, what you are saying really has no base. When they are both on the field, they each take pressure off of each other. TJ has outperformed him by a very large margin. I have personally been to 4 Bengals games this year, and TJ is double teamed just as much as CJ is. The difference is that TJ runs his routes, and gets seperation. Even when TJ doesn't get much seperation he wins the fight when the ball comes his way and makes the tough catch. Chad hasn't been able to get seperation all year long. I have seen him covered man to man, completely blanketed... and TJ end up hauling in the catch while he was double teamed. It looks to me like Chad is running lazy routes.

 

[KSU_Shrink]

I think they are inter-related, as in the whole is more than the sum of the parts. They each benefited from playing with the other, and to try and simplify it by saying that one is this much greater than the other, or one is so much more the worse, look at the numbers, doesn't take into account the dynamic nature of human relationships, much less the game of football.

 

[two_dollars]

By this logic, Wes Welker is a better receiver than Randy Moss.Apples and oranges in both cases...

This year, in that system, yes, Welker is better WR than Moss.

 

[Ozymandias]

I don't disagree that CJ is more talented than Housh. However, the problem with using the stats you use is that teams are different, year to year. This year's Cincinnati offense is not what it was with Palmer, and this year's Pitt defense may be one of its best ever. So I don't think your stats are the definitive answer.

I don't think there is any doubt, however, that Housh benefits from CJ's presence.

 

[Cheesedawg]

I would also contend that Chad Johnson is the better receiver. But the problem with your logic is that in a majority of those games you cite, Carson Palmer was the quarterback. Unfortunately, Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't in the same league as Palmer when it comes down to it so using last nights game doesn't really say much IMO.

Point taken, but that's why I singled out the 8-58 from earlier this season.

To make this argument, you need to list all the data from games that Housh has played against the top ranking defense in the NFL while his team was using a practice squad QB at the same time that 3 of the 7 active offensive lineman were in their first ever NFL games, including backups or third-stringers at LT and LG. Whether CJ was active or not, no Bengal was going to go off in that game. Otherwise this is a specious argument.

 

[tribecalledjeff]

I rolled a die this morning with my wife there and it came up a 5.

Later, without her, I rolled it again and it came up a 2.

Clearly the die is better with my wife in the room.

 

[Bri]

One thing that has always bothered me is the Chad Johnson haters that love to say T.J. is the better receiver. Many of us in the Chad-is-a-true-difference-maker camp have contended that TJ would suffer greatly without Ocho drawing double coverage on the other side. So last night with no CJ (who hadn't missed a game since his rookie year) and his quarterback throwing 37 times, TJ hauled in 4 passes for 20 yards. Before we chalk this up to Pittsburgh's defense, let's examine TJ's last several performances against the Steelers with Chad in the lineup:

7-75

5-88-2

9-94-2

4-44

7-81-1

5-42

8-58

Total 45-482-5

Avg 6.4-68.9-0.7

Every game was better than last night, including 8-58 from earlier this season. Meanwhile, here are the last 4 games CJ has played without Housh's scary talent drawing coverage on the other side:

8-135-1

5-52-1

6-78-1

5-48

Total 24-313-3

Avg 6-78.25-0.75

In my opinion, TJ is a good possession receiver whose numbers reflect his role as the guy that runs short cross and short out routes as well as his teammate's ability to draw double coverage more than they reflect his actual level of talent. CJ, on the other hand, was drafted earlier in the same draft by the same franchise and made the Pro Bowl three times before Housh broke 1,000 yards.

Moral of the story: take your PPR production from TJ and be happy. But don't delude yourself into thinking he's the better receiver and doesn't need CJ to maintain his production.

Drew Bennett had what 12-1300 yards that one year in TEN? He was an exceptional complimentary WR that fed off of the attention Mason was getting. Bennett has decent hands and OK speed, but his best attribute is probably his size and long reach.If I understand your post right, then I have a followup Q for you. How does Housh compare to Bennett then?

 

[Bri]

IMO Ryan Fitzpatrick vs Carson is a big factor here. I liked Ryan briefly with the Rams and thought some team should give that kid a chance. I've had no confidence in him since he's been in this year. He doesn't seem comfy enough to predict how he'll do, nevermind the receivers catching the passes.