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How Far Is Too Far? Astros Cheating Scandal Ends In Firings, Disarray, Disgust (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rockaction
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Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
The act itself has been done since the beginning of baseball. People are miffed because of the method used. Or is it people coming to the realization that sign stealing has been happening and they weren't aware that it happens? Most of the time the people against this aren't against sign stealing just that they used cameras. So the actual result of the actions is fine as long as cameras aren't used. Steal all you want and give your hitters an advantage of knowing what pitch is coming. However, if you use cameras then you should be banned for life because you have completely destroyed the game of baseball.
The game didn't inherently change. Signs have been stolen and used to gain an advantage in probably every game played. But because cameras were used its the worst sin you could ever do. I just don't get it. I understand that cameras were outlawed and those that used them after this notice should be punished. It wasn't right and they should be punished accordingly because they went against a rule put in place. I just don't see how it changed the game itself when it has always been happening just using a different method.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
Right. If you have a guy with binoculars and an air horn in centerfield, that's totally cool. But God forbid he uses a camera...
otb_lifer
Footballguy
... anyone wagering on any competition expecting things to be 100% on the up and up needs to seriously consider moving to scratch off lottery tickets.
culdeus
Footballguy
Why is this not a realistic position to take? What makes the camera ok in your mind?
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
You're asking the wrong question: What makes a guy sitting in the centerfield seats and signalling down to batters ok?
They made a rule saying you cannot use cameras. Therefore those that used a camera should be punished accordingly. It is not ok to use a camera. I just don't think using the camera changed the integrity or fabric of the game. It is just a method to steal signs. Stealing signs is ok to do.
culdeus
Footballguy
Ok, that's great. Maybe it's the wrong question, but are you not going to answer it with a deflection?
culdeus
Footballguy
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
My point is that this has been going on forever. And people are acting like it's a huge deal. Yet, under the current rules, it is NOT illegal to have a guy sit in the bleachers in centerfield with binoculars and relay the pitches into the batters. As long as he doesn't relay them in ELECTRONICALLY. If he does it with signals, this is fine and dandy. But if he decides to use a phone to relay the messages, all of a sudden, it's the Holocaust all over again.
culdeus
Footballguy
Where is the line then in what is not right? Is there one? What about helmet audio like a QB in the NFL? That ok?
The message from the MLB was this #### has to stop, and here's the line, the Astros knew this and went over that line. Whether people operated short of that line for many years and continue to do so doesn't make operating over the line ok.
I'm not on the side that they should vacate the title or anything, but a few lifetime bans wouldn't hurt in this instance. It's flagrant violation on the level of what Rose did.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
I think we're talking different things here, GB.
My point all along is that I find it ridiculous that one form is totally acceptable but the other is the worst thing to ever happen to sports.
It's wrong. I've never said otherwise. But I think people are getting all bent out of shape over something that's not that big a deal as it's being made out to be.
culdeus
Footballguy
I mean you could answer a question posed to you, I mean that's one option.
I'll try to make it as simple as possible
"Up to 2017 the rule more or less was "please don't do this". After 2017 the rule was "Please don't do this, and also no use of video cameras whatsoever while doing this".
If the rule was written down, and it was violated, why not punish the offenders?
It is wrong to break a rule and people that do so should be punished.
The rule was never "more or less don't do this". Stealing signs is not against the rules. The only thing against the rules (now) is the method of which to do this. Sheik is saying it is silly people are getting so bent that this is the worst thing to ever happen to the game because they don't like the method being used.
Cameras are illegal. Punish for that. But it doesn't change the integrity or fabric of the game.
No, all rules should be followed. I have never said those that broke the camera rule should be let off. They should be punished. I just don't think the act is punishable by death. Stealing signs is not illegal. Knowing what pitch is coming is not illegal and happens in every game since the game started. If MLB doesn't want cameras to be used then don't use cameras or face the consequences but to think stealing signs is something new is silly.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Sort of laughing over the guys that think it's no big deal. tt seems like Altuve and Springer have huge questions to answer about their all-natural talent. Altuve's size opens him up to questions about just how on the level his stats are. Springer's up and down nature and 470 bombs give one pause now. It totally stained them. It stained their championship. Try as you want to try and rationalize it with people, they know the Astros cheated. They got whistleblown and admitted it.
It's stained in most peooles' eyes forever whether any fan wants it to be so or not.
It's stained in most peooles' eyes forever whether any fan wants it to be so or not.
rockaction
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
culdeus
Footballguy
Again, this is throwing up strawmans(men?). Just because an old rule wasn't enforced doesn't mean a new rule should not also be not enforced.
Not at all. Stealing signs is not against the rules. You can do that all you want. That doesn't change the integrity of the game. The method of stealing signs is in question not the actual act of stealing signs.
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culdeus
Footballguy
There was no enforcement of non electronic sign stealing methods, or any method. It was one of those "rules" that wasn't. LaRussa was known to do this type of stuff, for one example.
Its because there is no rule against sign stealing. You cannot enforce a rule that isn't there. There is still no rule against sign stealing. The only rule is you cannot use cameras to steal signs in real time. It does not say you cannot steal signs.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Oh God not that. I'd rather bet on fixed games.
... anyone wagering on any competition expecting things to be 100% on the up and up needs to seriously consider moving to scratch off lottery tickets.
culdeus
Footballguy
not seeing the distinction here, the Astros broke the rule as defined. Where is the disconnect in your mind? That they should not have to face consequences because the core action they are taking is not banned?
Ron Swanson
Footballguy
BS. There was no sign stealing in 2019 and they both had career years. If anything, one might argue that they are better hitters now that they are focusing on the pitch(er) and not on listening for some signal.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I think he's saying that corked bats aren't a big deal because everyone else swings non-corked bats. Thus swinging a bat isn't illegal. It's just part of the game.
Or that spit balls aren't a big deal because everyone else throws non-doctored pitches. Thus throwing pitches isn't illegal. It's just part of the game.
Basically, it's just a form of red herring arguing. Just ignore him.
I have never said they shouldn't face consequences. I think they should be punished. The broke a rule and should be punished accordingly....
My issue is everyone thinking it is the worst thing ever in the world of sports. People saying that cannot trust the sport anymore and everyone that did it should be banned for life that it is worse than betting on games they played or taking illegal drugs to give them special powers.
They stole signs.....which by itself is not illegal. The end result of what they did is no different than what has been done in every game played since the game started. Not that big of deal. It happens all the time using many different methods where players know what pitch is coming before it gets there. That act doesn't change the fabric or integrity of the game. They used a METHOD that is not allowed (the act itself is allowed) and deserve to be punished for that. Punish them sure but it doesn't change the integrity of the game.
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Those are nowhere close to being proper analogies. Now if it was legal to use one of those old manual hand drills to cork the bat while it was illegal to use a cordless power drill to cork the bat then you might have something there...…….
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Correct. Without technology to steal them it takes awhile to do, which means signs don't need to be changed that often. When technology is used, it's a lot easier to steal them, which means signs have to be changed often, sometimes even numerous times during one at bat. It slows down the game, and makes it less appealing to watch, which is really the only reason MLB wants it stopped.
Of course, if they just let the coaches use a headset to give the pitcher and catcher the pitch call then there would be no sign changing delays at all.
DallasDMac
Footballguy
Drats, a decade late. Actually, I did know this. But admittedly, the extent of vitriol over this just amazes me. I'm sort of waiting to see which FBG is first to try and organize the torch and pitchfork brigade.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I imagine that not every sign was conveyed using cameras either. For sure more signs were conveyed using cameras but I guarantee it was not 100% of the pitches thrown. I would guess it would be less than 50% of an entire game where the pitch was conveyed. I have not seen anything that estimated how often it was used. I could be wrong but I don't think I am far off.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I don't think that many would say that they shouldn't be punished or that people might want to look a little closer to the stats. But calling for lifetime bans and that such? I just don't think this is on the level of steroids and throwing games. This is something that people admit is part of the game, but it got taken to the next level. I don't see how that destroys the integrity/fabric of the game if it was part of the game to begin with. There's not a rule against stealing signs, just how you do it. IMO PS's examples above aren't the same thing because there are rules for what exactly the bat is supposed to be made of, there are rules for banned substances, scuffing the ball, etc..
Was this going on last year? If not, how were those players stats?
I don't think "no big deal" is correct, as I and others on this side have said to punish the people involved. What I don't agree with is saying that it's the same level as steroids, throwing games, and that these people shouldn't be involved in baseball anymore.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I need to read even more into this. Was it for every player on the team? Was it just home games, or all games?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
So not because it destroys the integrity of the game, but because it might slow it down and they will lose viewers?
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Yes.
If the use of technology in the game would increase viewers, they would make it legal.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I guess this is a reason I don't get too worked up about some of these things in sports. Sure, there are some core things they probably truly care about, but mostly it's just a product and the league's don't worry too much about this crap until it starts to effect their ratings. If that's the case here, it's not really an integrity of the game issue, it's a pace of the game issue.Politician Spock said:
rockaction
Footballguy
This sounds awfully optimistic given their past, don't you think?Ron Swanson said:
And I'm specifically thinking of Springer's utter bom in the WS to left center. That was crushed. Probably a stolen sign, IMO, and they've left that open to debate with the scandal.
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
From a quick glance, it looked like springer's stats in 2017 were better away than home. I thought in an article I read, they were just doing this at home games - is that incorrect?
rockaction
Footballguy
No, that's not incorrect in the least. I'm not even sure he was one of the suspected, though. I really am in the middle of this. I'm a casual (former diehard) baseball fan that thinks this stains the game. A little less than steroids, but up there, despite what people to the contrary say. I really believe the video use and the fact they did this on such a seeming widespread basis is enough to taint titles and call everyone into question. Again, we can extend the previous incidents to this, but this seems sui generis compared to all other cheating scandals. And we line draw as humans; were not bound by analogous history necessarily. I say it to HF in the PSF all the time when he extends analogous situations to cover a totally new or extereme one; I tell him we draw lines even when logical progressions dictate we extend analogies. But we're not, as humans, bound by mathematical logic, but possibly wisdom. If something looks egregious or out of whack with wisdom or common sense, we're allowed to condemn because we are human, and that's what we do.
eta* And I've seen your not immoderate point the whole time and recognize it as a fair one. It's just not one we agree on.
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
That's fine, and this seems to happen to teams that are already pretty good anyway, so its harder to parse out the effects of doing this. Right or wrong, I also try to look at how much of an advantage the rules being broken had and how much it could have changed outcomes of games. Steroids was easy to see night and day changes in players and stats, but I am guessing we wont see that here.
rockaction
Footballguy
I think you, Gally, and TIS might have reined me in and made steroids 1A and this scandal 1B in terms of rank order rather than equal on my part. The difference in stats and body sizes (and head sizes) was night and day and put players at an unfair physical advantage. It was a discrepancy that changed even how we looked at stats writ large and the importance of WAR over OPS.
And like I said in my edit, I think you've been rather moderate and rational in your point of view.
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TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
GB, I've answered the question you asked several times. I've been on record since the beginning that if they get caught breaking a rule, they deserve to be punished. I'm not skirting any question.culdeus said:
Again, my point from the beginning is how we take a leap from acceptable to worse than the Holocaust simply by using technology.
This is an old article, but it's funny how no one was outraged by stuff like this when it happened. Hell, people (including myself) are just finding out about some of these.
