Sparky Polastri
Footballguy
I'd argue they aren't "spreading the good word" as Jesus instructed or how he did. That aside, no individual or group has the power to convert anyone. As written, the answer to your question is "no"
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How To Get To Heaven When You Die. Read The First Post. Then Q&A Discussion. Ask Questions Here! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Paddington
- Start date
- Status
Sparky Polastri
Footballguy
And I really am sorry you are frustrated Zow. To fix that it will likely take Bobby to clarify. I didn't take his words the same way you did and I am certainly in disagreement with Paddington so trying to hash it out with anyone other then them is likely a fool's error.
Sparky Polastri
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I don't think "love" in these context is meant to be an emotion, or at least only an emotion. And the way the typical Christian describes God, his love is certainly not unconditional, and being conditional means only sacrificing for a select few, and thus not consistent nor a model to follow. Of course as a believer this is on Christians and not God.
And while I liked a post, I certainly don't believe that only Christians can "love" in this context. That is as ridiculous as can be.
dgreen
Footballguy
Yes, I should have known not to jump into the middle of a conversation. I wasn't fully understanding the context and I think I was having a different conversation, probably just causing confusion. My bad.
Paddington
Footballguy
Not sure exactly what you're getting at here. I don't remember calling anybody names or stomping my feet. There's nothing wrong with speaking the truth which I did. I don't recall throwing any type of a tantrum or being upset really. I have absolutely no regrets about anything I said. I'm not going to come here and act like I'm fake . I think I have been pretty polite but of course I'm not perfect. I don't see anything wrong with defending yourself though and or the gospel. I believe that Paul's writings were written to the church for today and his instructions were if it be possible as much as lies in you love peaceably with all men. But I don't want to spark a deep theological debate right now about that. I'm a dispensationalist if you know what that is.
You want to know my testimony? I have shared some of it with Joe Bryant. I will have to get something together and post it on here. Yes I had experiences with the Lord that changed my life and why I am passionate about the gospel and actually why I am here.
Sparky Polastri
Footballguy
That makes two of us.
Sparky Polastri
Footballguy
Hopefully you saw my post on this being more of a concept than a single word and it's definition.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Yes, you were doing fine and then you posted this -
"I will point out I don't see how a nonbeliever (I'm assuming we're talking about those that lean towards agnosticism and/or atheism) would ever get to Agape love though. That would be completely nonsensical to them I'd think."
Unless I'm completely misreading this, I'll simply say that I hope that this was just a bad day.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Sorry for not responding @dgreen & @Zow - been down with the flu all week
this is an insightful little video, around 4 minutes
Agape love - the Bible Project
Seems I have missed most of the discussion.
I think in my experience, I've always thought of agape love as the way God loves us. It is his kindness and patience that leads us to repentance.
He is steadfast, he does not change, his ways are higher.
Me? I'm a wretch.
It is I suppose aspirational to want to demonstrate Christ's love toward others. The reality is our sin nature usually gets in the way.
I always chuckle when people say "just follow your heart." The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17:9)
Think it was John Calvin who said "The human heart is a factory of idols." That has been true In my life. An idol can be anything that you value more than your relationship with God. Whether it's American history, or my love of coffee, or the NFL - I continually find things to waste my time on that have nothing to do with what should be my highest priority.
The first question in the Westminster Shorter Catechism.
Q. 1. What is the chief end of man? A. Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him for ever. 1 Cor. 10:31; Rom. 11:36; Ps. 73:25-28.
Been sleeping about 15-18 hours a day, today was no exception. But finally took a shower around 6pm and wifey made an amazing dinner for us and three other couples from our church.
One a month we gather with 24 married couples doing a program called "Marriage Together." We sit at table of 8, share a meal, sing worship songs, and listen to different speakers on some aspect of marriage. This goes on from 7-9 pm, and we usually have discussion questions - for the couples with each other, and then table discussion questions. Have really enjoyed this, it's our second year doing it.
Tonight we had the other three couples from our table over and after dinner kind of did a book club thing (we're reading a book on marriage by Paul David Tripp.) I was so grateful for the way in which everyone present was very vulnerable and open with one another. Marriage is hard. It is so encouraging to meet with other couples who have also been married less than 3 years to talk about how we make space for one another.
Marriage is very humbling. I think God uses marriage to shape us and form us and change us. It is sort of the ultimate sanctification tool.
I am very grateful to be in a community of faith where it's OK to admit you are struggling. We all need grace.
this is an insightful little video, around 4 minutes
Agape love - the Bible Project
Seems I have missed most of the discussion.
I think in my experience, I've always thought of agape love as the way God loves us. It is his kindness and patience that leads us to repentance.
He is steadfast, he does not change, his ways are higher.
Me? I'm a wretch.
It is I suppose aspirational to want to demonstrate Christ's love toward others. The reality is our sin nature usually gets in the way.
I always chuckle when people say "just follow your heart." The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17:9)
Think it was John Calvin who said "The human heart is a factory of idols." That has been true In my life. An idol can be anything that you value more than your relationship with God. Whether it's American history, or my love of coffee, or the NFL - I continually find things to waste my time on that have nothing to do with what should be my highest priority.
The first question in the Westminster Shorter Catechism.
Q. 1. What is the chief end of man? A. Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him for ever. 1 Cor. 10:31; Rom. 11:36; Ps. 73:25-28.
Been sleeping about 15-18 hours a day, today was no exception. But finally took a shower around 6pm and wifey made an amazing dinner for us and three other couples from our church.
One a month we gather with 24 married couples doing a program called "Marriage Together." We sit at table of 8, share a meal, sing worship songs, and listen to different speakers on some aspect of marriage. This goes on from 7-9 pm, and we usually have discussion questions - for the couples with each other, and then table discussion questions. Have really enjoyed this, it's our second year doing it.
Tonight we had the other three couples from our table over and after dinner kind of did a book club thing (we're reading a book on marriage by Paul David Tripp.) I was so grateful for the way in which everyone present was very vulnerable and open with one another. Marriage is hard. It is so encouraging to meet with other couples who have also been married less than 3 years to talk about how we make space for one another.
Marriage is very humbling. I think God uses marriage to shape us and form us and change us. It is sort of the ultimate sanctification tool.
I am very grateful to be in a community of faith where it's OK to admit you are struggling. We all need grace.
Sparky Polastri
Footballguy
Not sure why....as I stated, it's my belief that it's very specific and requires perfection. As a result it's also my belief that Christians/believers would get there either. The other three words used more than suffice when it comes to our capabilities as broken individuals.
Sparky Polastri
Footballguy
Said better than I've been saying. It is also perfect and consistent. We just aren't capable of that (any of us) as broken people.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Forgive me if I am "putting words into your mouth", but I read this as only a believer can grasp and/or appreciate the concept. behind the Greek word. Thus only a believer can strive for it. Thus it is out of reach for a non-believer before we even get to whether it would be attainable by anyone. That would be a ridiculous thing to say. Again, forgive me if I am reading it wrong, but I don't think I was alone in this interpretation.
Sparky Polastri
Footballguy
The last one should read "wouldn't get there either". I think the concept can be grasped by all and achieved by none. I see it as an aspiration/example much like Jesus and his example of perfection.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
First I think we are now on the same page and probably agree.
I think the disconnect was how I and I believe others read that quoted line and how you later supported it. I acknowledge you subsequently wrote about attaining that level, but to my reading this line wasn't about achieving the goal but even having the goal to begin with.
But you cleared it up as far as I am concerned. And hopefully it narrowed the disconnect.
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dgreen
Footballguy
It's been a while since I thought much about what my story is, partly because I think I have a pretty boring story. How I got to where I am today just doesn't make a good movie so it's not one that I play over and over in my mind. But, there's been discussion in this thread about the value of telling our stories, so here it goes.
I have always lived in a Christian home. My parents met at a Christian college. My mom was a preacher’s kid. My dad (who definitely would have a much more interesting story than me – he’s been through some stuff) mostly grew up without a dad and was raised by his mother and spent quite a bit of time with his grandmother, both of which raised him in a Christian home.
By “Christian home”, I mean going to church every week (multiple times a week!), talking about God in the house, and Christianity just being part of our daily lives. It was as much a part of our lives as eating; it’s just what we did. “What are we doing this Sunday?” was never a question.
I have an older sister and brother. Both of them are married with kids and I’m married with kids. We all married Christian spouses and raised kids in that same kind of Christian home mentioned above. Of our kids, the ones who are married are married to Christian spouses. Some of us went to Christian colleges and have some kids who have done the same.
As I’ve grown older, I can realize that I would classify our upbringing as being Conservative Evangelical. However, we are far from what image that my bring to some people’s minds. We didn’t hear fire and brimstone sermons. I can probably count on one hand how many times I heard a sermon on homosexuality and they were usually something like, “Let me spend a few minutes showing why I think the Bible says it is a sin and then the rest of the sermon I’m going to focus on how we need to act lovingly regardless of how we feel about the sin.” My family, along with my dad, are still part of the same congregation that I (and my wife) grew up in. I think it’s a great congregation.
If I have any major qualms with this congregation over the years, it would be with what I now perceive to be an over-prioritization of salvation. I think I shared earlier in this thread that I heard so many sermons on “salvation by grace, not by works” that, in my young mind, I discounted the importance of works (good deeds). Sure, we talked some about the importance of doing good, but the primary focus was always on our own personal, individual salvation. At least that’s how I interpreted things. I probably shouldn’t fully trust the interpretation of 12-year-old me, but that was my main takeaway. I could have missed the point. I think it’s different today than when I was kid. We now have a heavy focus on discipleship. We don’t ignore salvation, but it’s not the topic of every sermon.
In my church tradition, when we talk about salvation, we talk about baptism. They go hand-in-hand. The usual path of kids growing up in a church like this was to be baptized at some point during your time in the youth group. But, something just never clicking for me. “You keep telling me that I’m saved by grace and I don’t need to do anything, but then you tell me I need to be baptized. That’s confusing to me.” I didn’t really talk about it much, though. I always felt like I thought differently than others and I was never comfortable raising these types of questions. Eventually, at the age of 23, I finally decided that I do think I should be baptized even if I haven’t figured out fully what I think about it. If I wasn’t willing to put aside my need for it to all make sense, then could I really call myself a Christian? I would have labeled myself a follower of Jesus before being baptized, but I had this problem that I was refusing to do something just because I wanted more clarity and, frankly, because I was a bit stubborn in that I refused to do something because everyone said I had to do it. Ultimately, I think I was baptized because I saw it as something that I should do if I’m claiming to follow Jesus. Also, to be honest, one of my aversions to being baptized was the thought of being in front of hundreds of people. That scared me since I was really shy back then. So, I ended up being baptized in front of just a few people on a Saturday in our church.
Coincidentally (or maybe not so coincidentally for those who believe in the work of the Holy Spirit), around that time, I started to become super aware of my porn addiction. Sure, I always knew it was something that I shouldn’t do. At this time, I switched from a kind of “Eh, I shouldn’t be doing this” to “Wow, I really shouldn’t be doing this!” I became extra aware of my sin. Pile on some good old fashion conservative Christian feelings of guilt and it really ate at me. I could go on and on about this, but I’ll just say for now that it is still something I struggle with today (and I assume always will unless I eliminate all screens and alone time from my life) and the thing I have found most helpful is being in discussion with other men who are struggling. It’s one of those things that is so widespread yet talked about so little in the church. Having a group to share with never “cured” me, but it has helped. I haven’t had a group like that in a long time, though.
One thing I started to learn about my dad as I got older is that studying Christianity and the Bible became a hobby of his. His starting point would have been much more conservative than mine and I think he has changed quite a bit of his thinking over the years. As he told me once, “I started out with a small group of scholars I was learning from. Over time, that circle has grown and now I’m learning from scholars who disagree with those scholars I started with.” He definitely has a big dislike for certain viewpoints, but he has a desire to learn and for truth that keeps him learning. Pretty impressive for someone who turns 80 later this year.
Most years at Christmas, he has given each of us kids some kind of resource (a book, video series, etc). For most of those, I was appreciative but rarely ever looked at them. I wanted to be interested. I had a lot of questions, but I just didn’t know what to do with any of it. I didn’t know where to start. Eventually, one of the ministers at my church and my dad were teaching a class that piqued my interest. A big part of it was focusing on the context of scripture and the Jewishness of Jesus. It was probably the first time I really liked a church class. But, I was still left in this “I don’t know what to do with this” stage.
In the Summer of 2021, a podcast was suggested to me by my siblings. Like that class at church, it focused heavily on the context and Jewishness of the Bible. And, what I really liked, is that it was an intentional curriculum through the Bible (it was a college curriculum put into podcast format). 200+ episodes starting with Genesis, going all the way through to Revelation, and then even some discussion on church history to bring us up to today. The content was interesting and it was packaged in a way that drew me in. Also, it really helped that it was a podcast. Up until that point in my life, I probably read less than 10 books in my life. I often said, “I don’t like reading.” It turns out, I’m just really picky about what I read. After binging my way through those 200+ episodes in less than six months, I’ve probably read about 50 books related to the Bible, Christianity, and Judaism.
Also after getting through that podcast, I couldn’t help but want to do something with what I learned. It wasn’t just about my own personal learning. I wanted to share and discuss. So, I started a group at my church and we went through the podcast together. We’d listen to a couple episodes during the week and then come together to discuss. That took about 2 ½ years and we had a great group of people who were seeing the Bible and God in a new way and having discussions they’d never had before. It was an environment where people felt safe to ask their questions and express things that they never felt comfortable sharing in the usual classes. Since then, we’ve continued with a couple other studies and I’ve taught other classes, too. Recently, I volunteered to be on our Adult Education Team, and I’m really looking forward to help shape how we learn and how that impacts our call to be disciples of Jesus.
My siblings are on a similar journey. We are all learning similar things and stretching ourselves. We have conversations that we never had before. This is in large part thanks to my dad and the journey he started. That has greatly influenced us. But, don’t tell my dad that I read Bart Ehrman…and ejoyed it!
This part of my life has brought more doubt than I’ve ever experienced. I’ve struggled with whether or not to invite others on this journey (through teaching classes and helping to shape education at my church), knowing it can lead to some pretty serious doubts. But, interestingly, I’ve also never had a stronger faith. I never would have guessed that doubt and faith can coexist so well, and I’d even say that doubt is part of my path to a more faithful life.
I have always lived in a Christian home. My parents met at a Christian college. My mom was a preacher’s kid. My dad (who definitely would have a much more interesting story than me – he’s been through some stuff) mostly grew up without a dad and was raised by his mother and spent quite a bit of time with his grandmother, both of which raised him in a Christian home.
By “Christian home”, I mean going to church every week (multiple times a week!), talking about God in the house, and Christianity just being part of our daily lives. It was as much a part of our lives as eating; it’s just what we did. “What are we doing this Sunday?” was never a question.
I have an older sister and brother. Both of them are married with kids and I’m married with kids. We all married Christian spouses and raised kids in that same kind of Christian home mentioned above. Of our kids, the ones who are married are married to Christian spouses. Some of us went to Christian colleges and have some kids who have done the same.
As I’ve grown older, I can realize that I would classify our upbringing as being Conservative Evangelical. However, we are far from what image that my bring to some people’s minds. We didn’t hear fire and brimstone sermons. I can probably count on one hand how many times I heard a sermon on homosexuality and they were usually something like, “Let me spend a few minutes showing why I think the Bible says it is a sin and then the rest of the sermon I’m going to focus on how we need to act lovingly regardless of how we feel about the sin.” My family, along with my dad, are still part of the same congregation that I (and my wife) grew up in. I think it’s a great congregation.
If I have any major qualms with this congregation over the years, it would be with what I now perceive to be an over-prioritization of salvation. I think I shared earlier in this thread that I heard so many sermons on “salvation by grace, not by works” that, in my young mind, I discounted the importance of works (good deeds). Sure, we talked some about the importance of doing good, but the primary focus was always on our own personal, individual salvation. At least that’s how I interpreted things. I probably shouldn’t fully trust the interpretation of 12-year-old me, but that was my main takeaway. I could have missed the point. I think it’s different today than when I was kid. We now have a heavy focus on discipleship. We don’t ignore salvation, but it’s not the topic of every sermon.
In my church tradition, when we talk about salvation, we talk about baptism. They go hand-in-hand. The usual path of kids growing up in a church like this was to be baptized at some point during your time in the youth group. But, something just never clicking for me. “You keep telling me that I’m saved by grace and I don’t need to do anything, but then you tell me I need to be baptized. That’s confusing to me.” I didn’t really talk about it much, though. I always felt like I thought differently than others and I was never comfortable raising these types of questions. Eventually, at the age of 23, I finally decided that I do think I should be baptized even if I haven’t figured out fully what I think about it. If I wasn’t willing to put aside my need for it to all make sense, then could I really call myself a Christian? I would have labeled myself a follower of Jesus before being baptized, but I had this problem that I was refusing to do something just because I wanted more clarity and, frankly, because I was a bit stubborn in that I refused to do something because everyone said I had to do it. Ultimately, I think I was baptized because I saw it as something that I should do if I’m claiming to follow Jesus. Also, to be honest, one of my aversions to being baptized was the thought of being in front of hundreds of people. That scared me since I was really shy back then. So, I ended up being baptized in front of just a few people on a Saturday in our church.
Coincidentally (or maybe not so coincidentally for those who believe in the work of the Holy Spirit), around that time, I started to become super aware of my porn addiction. Sure, I always knew it was something that I shouldn’t do. At this time, I switched from a kind of “Eh, I shouldn’t be doing this” to “Wow, I really shouldn’t be doing this!” I became extra aware of my sin. Pile on some good old fashion conservative Christian feelings of guilt and it really ate at me. I could go on and on about this, but I’ll just say for now that it is still something I struggle with today (and I assume always will unless I eliminate all screens and alone time from my life) and the thing I have found most helpful is being in discussion with other men who are struggling. It’s one of those things that is so widespread yet talked about so little in the church. Having a group to share with never “cured” me, but it has helped. I haven’t had a group like that in a long time, though.
One thing I started to learn about my dad as I got older is that studying Christianity and the Bible became a hobby of his. His starting point would have been much more conservative than mine and I think he has changed quite a bit of his thinking over the years. As he told me once, “I started out with a small group of scholars I was learning from. Over time, that circle has grown and now I’m learning from scholars who disagree with those scholars I started with.” He definitely has a big dislike for certain viewpoints, but he has a desire to learn and for truth that keeps him learning. Pretty impressive for someone who turns 80 later this year.
Most years at Christmas, he has given each of us kids some kind of resource (a book, video series, etc). For most of those, I was appreciative but rarely ever looked at them. I wanted to be interested. I had a lot of questions, but I just didn’t know what to do with any of it. I didn’t know where to start. Eventually, one of the ministers at my church and my dad were teaching a class that piqued my interest. A big part of it was focusing on the context of scripture and the Jewishness of Jesus. It was probably the first time I really liked a church class. But, I was still left in this “I don’t know what to do with this” stage.
In the Summer of 2021, a podcast was suggested to me by my siblings. Like that class at church, it focused heavily on the context and Jewishness of the Bible. And, what I really liked, is that it was an intentional curriculum through the Bible (it was a college curriculum put into podcast format). 200+ episodes starting with Genesis, going all the way through to Revelation, and then even some discussion on church history to bring us up to today. The content was interesting and it was packaged in a way that drew me in. Also, it really helped that it was a podcast. Up until that point in my life, I probably read less than 10 books in my life. I often said, “I don’t like reading.” It turns out, I’m just really picky about what I read. After binging my way through those 200+ episodes in less than six months, I’ve probably read about 50 books related to the Bible, Christianity, and Judaism.
Also after getting through that podcast, I couldn’t help but want to do something with what I learned. It wasn’t just about my own personal learning. I wanted to share and discuss. So, I started a group at my church and we went through the podcast together. We’d listen to a couple episodes during the week and then come together to discuss. That took about 2 ½ years and we had a great group of people who were seeing the Bible and God in a new way and having discussions they’d never had before. It was an environment where people felt safe to ask their questions and express things that they never felt comfortable sharing in the usual classes. Since then, we’ve continued with a couple other studies and I’ve taught other classes, too. Recently, I volunteered to be on our Adult Education Team, and I’m really looking forward to help shape how we learn and how that impacts our call to be disciples of Jesus.
My siblings are on a similar journey. We are all learning similar things and stretching ourselves. We have conversations that we never had before. This is in large part thanks to my dad and the journey he started. That has greatly influenced us. But, don’t tell my dad that I read Bart Ehrman…and ejoyed it!
This part of my life has brought more doubt than I’ve ever experienced. I’ve struggled with whether or not to invite others on this journey (through teaching classes and helping to shape education at my church), knowing it can lead to some pretty serious doubts. But, interestingly, I’ve also never had a stronger faith. I never would have guessed that doubt and faith can coexist so well, and I’d even say that doubt is part of my path to a more faithful life.
eighsse2
Footballguy
I really appreciate @Paddington posting this to begin with. Very sad to see so many people responding with sarcasm and hatred. Would be nice to see atheists have an outlook more like Penn Jillette's -- to paraphrase, "if you believe in Christianity, even though I don't, I want you to evangelize, and I'd have no respect for you if you didn't".
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Can you highlight the hatred please? Maybe one example.
eighsse2
Footballguy
Plenty of mockery on page 1 including references to believing in Santa Claus.
Zow
Footballguy
Can you point to just one post since 2024 that exudes any sort of sarcasm and hatred towards Paddington?
From my perspective, given the sensitive nature of the topic at hand this thread has been quite respectful by the overwhelming majority of participants - believes and non-believers alike. Certainly there have been constructive criticisms given and some frustrations expressed, but I'm genuinely surprised to read the bold and it makes me wonder if you have read this thread. @Joe Bryant participates in this thread and I think there's zero chance he'd let anything that would fall under the umbrella of the bold fly.
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Zow
Footballguy
Have you read the remaining 33 pages? I suggest doing so before doing such a drive-by criticism of non-believers in this thread.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
I'm looking for examples of hatred.
Zow
Footballguy
I'd suggest not generalizing about something and, more specifically, a particular group when you have only reviewed and considered 1/34 of whatever that something is.
eighsse2
Footballguy
Ultimately I don't think it was as much of a generalization as you're think it was. What I was referring to was what I read. That amount of negativity exists, regardless of what else exists. I didn't say all or even most, or any "ratio-type" verbiage. If seven people responded sarcastically, then it is sad to see that, regardless of what others are saying.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
eighsse2
Footballguy
That's true, that line does imply that there aren't any or many such atheists here. I apologize for that.
Zow
Footballguy
So we're just back to evangelists should be championed and atheists generally criticized?
Zow
Footballguy
But that's overall not happening in this thread.
So I guess if your point is that atheists should be nicer and not mock Christianity, even though that isn't happening here, then... okay?
eighsse2
Footballguy
I thought we already discussed the fact that I didn't read enough to know that wasn't happening anymore. I apologized for that. I wouldn't have made the post, or I wouldn't have worded it the same had I known otherwise.
I was adding that it wasn't much of a generalization. It probably comes across odd if no one had made any sarcastic comments in a long while. But regardless, what I read was more than 50% sad to see. But as @Zow points out, my final sentence was pretty much an implied generalization. So yeah that was a generalization and I apologize for that.
ETA: To me reading what I read seemed akin to if someone made a thread titled "My Grandfather Passed Away Today", a pretty serious situation, and 20 posts on page 1 were along the lines of "Thanks for the update." or "This affects me how?" So that was sad to see. That's all. Sorry guys.
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Paddington
Footballguy
AI works on factual information. There is a real human that Santa Claus was based on, so yes AI could make a good argument for the resurrection of Christ. Facts are facts.
Paddington
Footballguy
dkp993
Footballguy
This analogy makes zero sense unless you were arguing whether Jesus was likely a real historical figure, which I don’t believe anyone here is. (Most agree he likely was) Ie Santa based on a real person vs Jesus based on a real person. The magical element of the resurrection would be akin to Santa’s magical element of delivering presents via a flying sleigh to everyone in the world in one night. In other words, Santa was based on a real person therefore it proves he flys sleighs and delivers presents to everyone person on the planet in one night. Sorry but it doesn’t.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Obviously comparisons to believing in Santa Claus aren't going to land well on believers and shouldn't be conveyed in a mocking manner, but ultimately the message is that we think you believe in the existence of a man-made fictional entity. Do you think there is any respectable way for us to convey that or will it always be insulting?
dkp993
Footballguy
Also not true. It aggregates data. If you asked it to argue that the earth was flat, it would.
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Mister CIA
Footballguy
Boy howdy!
dkp993
Footballguy
Lesson learned. Multitasking not allowed. Lol
dgreen
Footballguy
Me: Tell me the earth is flat
ChatGPT: The Earth is not flat; it's an oblate spheroid. This means it's mostly spherical but slightly flattened at the poles and bulging at the equator due to its rotation. This has been confirmed through centuries of scientific evidence, including satellite imagery, space exploration, and observations of the Earth's shadow on the moon during lunar eclipses. If you're curious about the science behind this, feel free to ask!
Me: What's the best argument for a flat earth
ChatGPT: The idea of a flat Earth has been largely debunked by science, but there are still some arguments put forth by flat Earth proponents. The most common ones include:
- Perceived Horizon: Flat Earth proponents argue that the horizon always appears flat when viewed from a high vantage point, rather than curving downward as would be expected if the Earth were spherical.
- Water's Level: Some claim that large bodies of water, like oceans, appear to be flat and level, which they argue would not be the case on a curved surface.
- No Observable Curvature: Some people say that from their perspective, especially when traveling across vast expanses like oceans or plains, they don't see a noticeable curve, which they interpret as evidence of a flat Earth.
- Airplane Flight Paths: Flat Earth proponents sometimes point to the flight paths of airplanes, arguing that if the Earth were a sphere, certain flight routes wouldn't make sense or would take longer than they do.
Would you like to dive into why each of these claims is addressed by scientific evidence?
Me: Argue that the earth is flat
ChatGPT:
While the overwhelming scientific consensus and evidence show that the Earth is a sphere, I can help you understand some of the reasoning that flat Earth proponents use to make their case. This argument doesn't represent my personal beliefs but is based on the points commonly made by those who support the flat Earth theory.
- The Horizon Looks Flat: Flat Earth advocates argue that no matter how high you go, the horizon always appears flat. They claim that if the Earth were truly a sphere, you should be able to observe a curve even from high altitudes, but this is not the case.
- Water's Surface: Flat Earth supporters often claim that large bodies of water, like the oceans, are flat and not curved. They argue that water always seeks a level surface and doesn't curve around a ball, even on a massive scale like the Earth.
- No Observable Curve: Despite traveling long distances, flat Earth believers assert that they can’t see or measure a noticeable curvature from the ground. They point out that when looking at long distances across flat plains or oceans, the horizon appears to stay at eye level.
- Airplane Flight Paths: Another argument is that if the Earth were a sphere, airplane flight paths wouldn't make sense. Flat Earth proponents claim that airplanes often fly in ways that suggest a flat plane rather than curving around a spherical Earth. For example, some flat Earthers suggest that flights that travel long distances would need to make unnecessary adjustments if the Earth were a globe.
- Antarctica as the Ice Wall: A common flat Earth theory posits that Antarctica is not a continent but rather an ice wall that surrounds the Earth, keeping the oceans contained. This idea tries to explain why we haven’t explored the outer edges of the Earth and why the oceans stay in place.
Would you like to explore any of these claims in greater detail? I can also show you the scientific responses to each argument!
dkp993
Footballguy
Exactly. How you word the question guides the answer….
Me: Is it a fact Jesus rose from the dead and was resurrected
ChatGPT: The belief that Jesus rose from the dead and was resurrected is a central tenet of Christianity, but it is a matter of faith rather than historical fact in the conventional sense. From a theological perspective, Christians believe in the resurrection as a divine miracle, as described in the New Testament of the Bible. Accounts of the resurrection are primarily found in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), which are religious texts rather than historical documents.
Historically, there is no direct empirical evidence that can conclusively prove or disprove the resurrection. Scholars and historians often approach the event differently, with some emphasizing the significance of the resurrection in Christian doctrine, while others consider it within the context of religious beliefs and traditions.
For believers, the resurrection is considered a miraculous event and a cornerstone of their faith, while for skeptics or non-believers, it remains a theological claim without historical verification.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
This line really stuck out. Not faulting your choices at all (besides being a Washington fan), but I think you've identified the reason most people aren't Christians - it doesn't make sense.
dkp993
Footballguy
Me: Argue the earth is flat from the perspective of a believer
ChatGPT: From the perspective of a flat Earth believer, the argument for a flat Earth revolves around questioning established scientific principles and offering alternative interpretations of natural phenomena. Here’s how such an argument might be framed:
Perception of the Horizon: One of the core arguments is that when you look out at the horizon, it always appears flat and level, regardless of how high you go. If the Earth were truly a sphere, the horizon would curve downward as you rise higher, but this doesn’t happen. The horizon consistently appears flat and at eye level, even from airplanes.
Water's Behavior: Water is often cited as proof of a flat Earth. Flat Earth believers argue that water, like oceans or lakes, always finds its level. In a spherical Earth model, the oceans would have to conform to the curvature of the planet, causing water to "curve" around the Earth. However, from their perspective, the Earth’s oceans appear to remain level with no curvature.
No Observable Curvature: Flat Earth proponents argue that there is no direct evidence of the Earth's curvature. They claim that photographs showing the curve are either doctored or taken from angles that distort the actual shape. If the Earth were truly curved, they argue, it would be visible to the naked eye over large distances or from higher altitudes.
Aircraft and Flight Paths: Flat Earth believers point out that flight paths don’t seem to account for the curvature of the Earth. For example, long-distance flights between certain cities, such as from North America to Australia, seem to follow paths that make more sense on a flat Earth map. They believe that pilots do not adjust for curvature when flying, which would be necessary if the Earth were a sphere.
The “NASA Conspiracy”: Many flat Earth adherents claim that space exploration, including photos and videos from NASA, is a hoax. They argue that these images are fabricated by space agencies to maintain the illusion of a spherical Earth, asserting that the space program is part of a larger conspiracy to deceive the public.
Antarctica as a Barrier: The Antarctic continent is often portrayed as a giant ice wall that surrounds the Earth, holding in the oceans. Flat Earth believers suggest that this wall prevents us from falling off the edge and that the global powers keep people from exploring it freely to maintain the lie of a round Earth.
These arguments are part of a broader set of beliefs that question mainstream science, relying on personal perception, skepticism of authority, and alternative interpretations of physical evidence. However, it's important to note that the scientific consensus overwhelmingly supports the Earth being an oblate spheroid based on centuries of evidence, including observations from space, physics, and countless experiments.
eighsse2
Footballguy
The Santa Claus analogy I don't think is ever going to come across as anything but mockery, and it would be really difficult to believe it is ever intended otherwise. You can say exactly what you just said, that you believe it is fictional or man-made, and that much can be said without sounding facetious/passive-aggressive/condescending.
Zow
Footballguy
How would you consider or interpret somebody saying the following in response to a proposition that non-believers can also be, generally, good/moral people:
"I believe you are wrong. I believe that believers carry out the Commandments way more than non-believers. An unbeliever's definition of love is not the same as the definition of Love of a believer. When a Christian tells what He believes is the truth of the Word of God, the Non Beliver sees him as hateful, intolerant and a bigot."
dkp993
Footballguy
Agreed. Do you agree that the same “facetious/passive-aggressive/condescending” approach happens (in thread as well) with believers toward non-believers?
eighsse2
Footballguy
The last sentence of the quote sounds a bit broad. Some words, like "good/moral" especially, can be very hard to define. I wouldn't agree with the opinion in that quote exactly. I think, and especially hope, that believers overall exhibit more Christlikeness than unbelievers. But certainly there are plenty of outlier unbelievers who exhibit far more than the average believer. All people, saint/heathen/whatever, are far, far from perfect.
eighsse2
Footballguy
Absolutely. Haven't read enough of the thread to see it here, but, for example, though I love that Eric Metaxas tries to defend the faith, I've found when reading his book on apologetics that he comes off very arrogant and condescending. I don't see that often from the Christian side of the debate, I'll say that. I thought possibly Metaxas was trying to "give the other side a taste if their own medicine" but whatever the case I don't like it.
dgreen
Footballguy
I first heard of Mataxas about 8 years ago in a discussion with David French (who I'm a fan of). Mitaxas definitely rubbed me the wrong way as someone who was claiming to speak for God. I then heard French later on say that he thought Mataxas had changed. Since this was 8 years ago, I think many of you can figure out how he had changed. Since watching him in that discussion with French, I haven't sought out anything from Mataxas.
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