HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE! Read This First Post, THEN Q & A Discussion! ASK QUESTIONS HERE! (1 Viewer)

[tonydead]

I wonder how common it is for poor relationships with your earthly father to get in the way of true intimacy with our Heavenly Father? Anecdotally, it seems super common; I run into it all the time working with younger men. 

I mean it affects all of our relationships. Sometimes when you have a distant father it makes it harder to connect at a deep emotional level with your SO, or fear holds you back from even trying.

Conversely, if your earthly fathers was always there when you needed them, or you at least knew they were thinking about you and cared about you even when they couldn't be physically present, that reality of a loving father has a massive influence of your concept of "God the Father."

And how does it make you feel when you have trouble connecting with your SO possibly because you had a distant relationship with your father?

 

[BobbyLayne]

And how does it make you feel when you have trouble connecting with your SO possibly because you had a distant relationship with your father?

I'm good, just familiar with the subject matter. Maybe we've had slightly different life experiences? I spend a lot of time counseling homeless vets & discipling young men in my church. 

 

[BobbyLayne]

Another point for the holier than thou trophy!  Yippy!

Killscreen coming up if anyone wants the see it.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Spoke the world into existence is a metaphor no less audacious than "star breather." 

Everything is binary or literal to you? Like 1/0. On/off? Neat!

You think think we're just blood, water, bone, muscle, neurons, flesh, et al? You think we have a soul? Do you think we have a spiritual man, or is it merely physical & mental - that's it.

 

[Politician Spock]

You & Paddington should do lunch.

He'a working on his soul winners merit badge, you're working on your "God disappointed me so I'm an atheist" b i tch insignia. Y'all could help each other achieve your life goals.

I have no problem with other people being religious. People can practice their religions in peace and won't be bothered by me. Welcome to America!!!

I however won't ignore christian proselytizing. If someone is going to try and sell people on becoming a christian, I'm going to give the prospective customer my review of christianity as a previous buyer of it. Consider me the Yelp for the "lost souls" being targeted by that religion. 

 

[Politician Spock]

Context is why you and the next guy (both professing the same god) can hold entirely different views on what the Bible says.

Exactly. There are a ridiculous amount of christian denominations because all of them think the other ones got the context wrong. 

 

[NREC34]

I want it to be true. 

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Spoke the world into existence is a metaphor no less audacious than "star breather." 

Everything is binary or literal to you? Like 1/0. On/off? Neat!

You think think we're just blood, water, bone, muscle, neurons, flesh, et al? You think we have a soul? Do you think we have a spiritual man, or is it merely physical & mental - that's it.

Well, yeah.

You obviously think there's more to it. Let me ask you this:  are human beings unique?  Are all other animals more like the bolded and we humans are special?

 

[Politician Spock]

You lost me; explain how what I wrote has to do with self-righteousness?

To expand:

I don't have much tolerance for Paddington, who most closely resembles a bot. Dude has no interest in engaging other humans in a way that is meaningful.

Spock seems like someone who didn't receive enough hugs when he was growing up. Tortured, angry atheist is such a cliché.

Sad!

I wonder how common it is for poor relationships with your earthly father to get in the way of true intimacy with our Heavenly Father? Anecdotally, it seems super common; I run into it all the time working with younger men. 

I mean it affects all of our relationships. Sometimes when you have a distant father it makes it harder to connect at a deep emotional level with your SO, or fear holds you back from even trying.

Conversely, if your earthly fathers was always there when you needed them, or you at least knew they were thinking about you and cared about you even when they couldn't be physically present, that reality of a loving father has a massive influence of your concept of "God the Father."

i don't expect guy's on a football board to open up & be vulnerable, but just kick it around in your head.

I think of God as a provider who is kind, loving and always present. He is for me (pro tip: He is for you as well), His answers are Yes and Amen.

My father was the #1 reason why I was a christian for 30 years of my life. The vast majority of christians are christian because someone they love is christian. Either their parents, or they fell in love with a christian and married them, so they got saved too. Like I've said many times, I was a church going, small group attending, quiet time practicing, praying all the time, evangelical christian for 30+ years, and was always part of a christian family, with a christian extended family, and many many christian friends who's families were christian. You can keep speculating why I eventually left the faith. It was simply for one reason. The more I studied, the less believable it became. And the less believable it became the more I studied hoping and praying I could believe it again. It was just a downward spiral from there. It hadn't nothing to do with psychological issues, as much as you would like to assume it is.  

 

[Politician Spock]

I want it to be true. 

So do I. It would be great if it was true. The desire for it to be true is a big reason religions survive. 

 

[BobbyLayne]

I have no problem with other people being religious. People can practice their religions in peace and won't be bothered by me. Welcome to America!!!

I however won't ignore christian proselytizing. If someone is going to try and sell people on becoming a christian, I'm going to give the prospective customer my review of christianity as a previous buyer of it. Consider me the Yelp for the "lost souls" being targeted by that religion. 

I can't stand religion. Poor substitute for the real deal. Where Christianity differs from every other religion is relationship.

Religion is man-centered. Religion teaches  your standing with God is judged on what you do (works.) Man is the initiator, and the diety is the beneficiary.  Judaism or Islam hold to the belief in a supreme God or gods (theism); Buddhism and Hinduism, focus on metaphysical thought patterns and spiritual “energies” (non-theist.) But all these religions teach man can reach a higher power / state of being through his own efforts. Paradise, nirvana, or some higher state of being is man’s reward for his strict adherence to whatever tenets that religion prescribes.

Conversely, Christianity is not a religion; it is a relationship that God has established with His children. In Christianity, God is the initiator and man is the beneficiary. There is nothing man can do to make himself right with God. According to Christianity, God did for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

Our sin separates us from His presence, and sin must be punished. But, because God loves us, Jesus took our punishment upon Himself.

All we must do is accept God’s gift of salvation through faith. Grace is God’s blessing on the undeserving.

The grace-based relationship between God and man is the foundation of Christianity and the antithesis of religion.

(agreed there are entire denominations that have followed the way of the Pharisees in creating rules & rituals which have no biblical basis.)

You cannot transform your own heart. Only the Holy Spirit can change you from the inside out.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Spoke the world into existence is a metaphor no less audacious than "star breather." 

Everything is binary or literal to you? Like 1/0. On/off? Neat!

You think think we're just blood, water, bone, muscle, neurons, flesh, et al? You think we have a soul? Do you think we have a spiritual man, or is it merely physical & mental - that's it.

Well, yeah.

You obviously think there's more to it. Let me ask you this:  are human beings unique?  Are all other animals more like the bolded and we humans are special?

Humans are unique in that they created in the image of God. I have great love for animals, especially dogs and horses, but they don't possess a soul like you and I do.

 

[Politician Spock]

I can't stand religion. Poor substitute for the real deal. Where Christianity differs from every other religion is relationship.

Religion is man-centered. Religion teaches  your standing with God is judged on what you do (works.) Man is the initiator, and the diety is the beneficiary.  Judaism or Islam hold to the belief in a supreme God or gods (theism); Buddhism and Hinduism, focus on metaphysical thought patterns and spiritual “energies” (non-theist.) But all these religions teach man can reach a higher power / state of being through his own efforts. Paradise, nirvana, or some higher state of being is man’s reward for his strict adherence to whatever tenets that religion prescribes.

Conversely, Christianity is not a religion; it is a relationship that God has established with His children. In Christianity, God is the initiator and man is the beneficiary. There is nothing man can do to make himself right with God. According to Christianity, God did for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

Our sin separates us from His presence, and sin must be punished. But, because God loves us, Jesus took our punishment upon Himself.

All we must do is accept God’s gift of salvation through faith. Grace is God’s blessing on the undeserving.

The grace-based relationship between God and man is the foundation of Christianity and the antithesis of religion.

(agreed there are entire denominations that have followed the way of the Pharisees in creating rules & rituals which have no biblical basis.)

You cannot transform your own heart. Only the Holy Spirit can change you from the inside out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvzx2kcTmRk

 

[BobbyLayne]

My father was the #1 reason why I was a christian for 30 years of my life. The vast majority of christians are christian because someone they love is christian. Either their parents, or they fell in love with a christian and married them, so they got saved too. Like I've said many times, I was a church going, small group attending, quiet time practicing, praying all the time, evangelical christian for 30+ years, and was always part of a christian family, with a christian extended family, and many many christian friends who's families were christian. You can keep speculating why I eventually left the faith. It was simply for one reason. The more I studied, the less believable it became. And the less believable it became the more I studied hoping and praying I could believe it again. It was just a downward spiral from there. It hadn't nothing to do with psychological issues, as much as you would like to assume it is.  

It wasn't directed at you - should have made the part after "Sad!" a separate post. A couple extra lines of white space isn't sufficient, clumsy of me.

(& I was just being snarky about you & our boi Paddy - you're like opposite end monoliths. at least you make an effort connect with people.)

 

[Politician Spock]

It wasn't directed at you - should have made the part after "Sad!" a separate post. A couple extra lines of white space isn't sufficient, clumsy of me.

(& I was just being snarky about you & our boi Paddy - you're like opposite end monoliths. at least you make an effort connect with people.)

I  beg to differ. 

Spock seems like someone who didn't receive enough hugs when he was growing up. Tortured, angry atheist is such a cliché.

Sad!

 

[Politician Spock]

This is a big reason I sort of secretly envy RC and EO. 
 

Protestantism is my family inside the Christian community, but we've got a lot of drunk uncles. 

Yep, killing people for heresy was really the only way to keep all the different interpretations of the bible from spreading. Well, that and translating the bible from Greek to Latin so that church members couldn't read it on their own. Once the believers were allowed to read it on their own and the world became more literate, all the different denominations were a natural result, because despite the claim that context matters, christians can't even agree what the right context is. 

 

[Politician Spock]

It's very true. Translation of the bible was huge in teh reformation. 

When you get that many interpretations of the bible, there's gonna be some bad ones. 

I couldn't find a good one. And I tried. Hard!

 

[tonydead]

I can't stand religion. Poor substitute for the real deal. Where Christianity differs from every other religion is relationship.

Religion is man-centered. Religion teaches  your standing with God is judged on what you do (works.) Man is the initiator, and the diety is the beneficiary.  Judaism or Islam hold to the belief in a supreme God or gods (theism); Buddhism and Hinduism, focus on metaphysical thought patterns and spiritual “energies” (non-theist.) But all these religions teach man can reach a higher power / state of being through his own efforts. Paradise, nirvana, or some higher state of being is man’s reward for his strict adherence to whatever tenets that religion prescribes.

Conversely, Christianity is not a religion; it is a relationship that God has established with His children. In Christianity, God is the initiator and man is the beneficiary. There is nothing man can do to make himself right with God. According to Christianity, God did for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

Our sin separates us from His presence, and sin must be punished. But, because God loves us, Jesus took our punishment upon Himself.

All we must do is accept God’s gift of salvation through faith. Grace is God’s blessing on the undeserving.

The grace-based relationship between God and man is the foundation of Christianity and the antithesis of religion.

(agreed there are entire denominations that have followed the way of the Pharisees in creating rules & rituals which have no biblical basis.)

You cannot transform your own heart. Only the Holy Spirit can change you from the inside out.

  You talk like none of us have heard this crap before.  

 

[matuski]

I can't stand religion. Poor substitute for the real deal. Where Christianity differs from every other religion is relationship.

Religion is man-centered. Religion teaches  your standing with God is judged on what you do (works.) Man is the initiator, and the diety is the beneficiary.  Judaism or Islam hold to the belief in a supreme God or gods (theism); Buddhism and Hinduism, focus on metaphysical thought patterns and spiritual “energies” (non-theist.) But all these religions teach man can reach a higher power / state of being through his own efforts. Paradise, nirvana, or some higher state of being is man’s reward for his strict adherence to whatever tenets that religion prescribes.

Conversely, Christianity is not a religion; it is a relationship that God has established with His children. In Christianity, God is the initiator and man is the beneficiary. There is nothing man can do to make himself right with God. According to Christianity, God did for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

Our sin separates us from His presence, and sin must be punished. But, because God loves us, Jesus took our punishment upon Himself.

All we must do is accept God’s gift of salvation through faith. Grace is God’s blessing on the undeserving.

The grace-based relationship between God and man is the foundation of Christianity and the antithesis of religion.

(agreed there are entire denominations that have followed the way of the Pharisees in creating rules & rituals which have no biblical basis.)

You cannot transform your own heart. Only the Holy Spirit can change you from the inside out.

This reads like you are trying really hard to convince yourself.

 

[tonydead]

Everything is binary or literal to you? Like 1/0. On/off? Neat!

Sort of.  I look and judge the world around me with objective evidence.  You do to with everything in your life except one.

 

[tonydead]

You think think we're just blood, water, bone, muscle, neurons, flesh, et al? You think we have a soul? Do you think we have a spiritual man, or is it merely physical & mental - that's it.

Yes, and it suits me just fine.  I don't believe in souls, ghosts, goblins or gremlins.  I don't confuse my reality with that of stories.

 

[tonydead]

I'm good, just familiar with the subject matter. Maybe we've had slightly different life experiences? I spend a lot of time counseling homeless vets & discipling young men in my church. 

You prey on people who have weakness in psyche because they were absent a healthy father figure and try to replace that with religion?  You are a sick person.

 

[Scoresman]

I don't know whether or not I have a soul. But I can tell you what I am pretty damn sure of. I'm pretty damn sure that if there is such a thing as a soul, a religion created by power-hungry men centuries ago as a means to gain and maintain power over others does not come any closer to defining a soul than Dr. Suess. 

 

[BobbyLayne]

I'm good, just familiar with the subject matter. Maybe we've had slightly different life experiences? I spend a lot of time counseling homeless vets & discipling young men in my church. 

You prey on people who have weakness in psyche because they were absent a healthy father figure and try to replace that with religion?  You are a sick person.

Edited 2 hours ago by tonydead

Mostly I just listen. Seeking to understand is more important than being understood.

 

[BobbyLayne]

You think think we're just blood, water, bone, muscle, neurons, flesh, et al? You think we have a soul? Do you think we have a spiritual man, or is it merely physical & mental - that's it.

Yes, and it suits me just fine.  I don't believe in souls, ghosts, goblins or gremlins.  I don't confuse my reality with that of stories.

Good stuff here. It's a point of departure. We're both good with leaving it right here, not much else to discuss.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I  beg to differ. 

You are right. I was wrong. I apologize.

 

[BobbyLayne]

65 baptisms in NYC tonight at PS11. Amazing night.

 

[tonydead]

At least we know who owns the Paddington alias. 

 

[tonydead]

Mostly I just listen. Seeking to understand is more important than being understood.

You've made your motive perfectly clear. 

 

[Mister CIA]

I can't stand religion. Poor substitute for the real deal. Where Christianity differs from every other religion is relationship.

Religion is man-centered. Religion teaches  your standing with God is judged on what you do (works.) Man is the initiator, and the diety is the beneficiary.  Judaism or Islam hold to the belief in a supreme God or gods (theism); Buddhism and Hinduism, focus on metaphysical thought patterns and spiritual “energies” (non-theist.) But all these religions teach man can reach a higher power / state of being through his own efforts. Paradise, nirvana, or some higher state of being is man’s reward for his strict adherence to whatever tenets that religion prescribes.

Conversely, Christianity is not a religion; it is a relationship that God has established with His children. In Christianity, God is the initiator and man is the beneficiary. There is nothing man can do to make himself right with God. According to Christianity, God did for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

Our sin separates us from His presence, and sin must be punished. But, because God loves us, Jesus took our punishment upon Himself.

All we must do is accept God’s gift of salvation through faith. Grace is God’s blessing on the undeserving.

The grace-based relationship between God and man is the foundation of Christianity and the antithesis of religion.

(agreed there are entire denominations that have followed the way of the Pharisees in creating rules & rituals which have no biblical basis.)

You cannot transform your own heart. Only the Holy Spirit can change you from the inside out.

Ah dude, you're one of the good ones, but you just threw up a word salad. 

Your mind and body are made from the dust of a Supernova. Don't let the goat herders and sheep ####### drag you down.  

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Humans are unique in that they created in the image of God. I have great love for animals, especially dogs and horses, but they don't possess a soul like you and I do.

Humans evolved, just like every other animal on the planet.  Do you disagree?  I guess you do, if you say that we are "created in the image of God".  What does that really mean?  It is demonstrably wrong if you're saying that humans have no evolutionary past.

 

[Mister CIA]

Obligatory link. I know this will bounce like a wrench off of Paddington's skull, but hopefully BobbyLayne has a David Tyree moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBv38ahelms

 

[tonydead]

I usually don't have an issue with most of the atheists who post here. You don't come across well. Do with that info what you want. 

Listen, I've seen many posts of Bobby's proselytizing, quoting scripture, the whole nine yards that I could have easily rebutted yet I just moved right past them because they seemed heart felt.  This time it's different.  This time it's a case of if you dish it out you better be able to take it.  Just think about this for one minute, just 30-60 seconds of your time:

He attacks one of the most intelligent posters on this entire board when it comes to religion and scripture (whether you agree with his interpretation or not) and compares him to Paddington.  Then he continues on suggesting that he didn't get enough hugs as a child while going on a rant seemingly out of now where about daddy issues.

I don't mind you calling me out, I appreciate it.  However, calling me out while overlooking that is bizarre.  

 

[tonydead]

Obligatory link. I know this will bounce like a wrench off of Paddington's skull, but hopefully BobbyLayne has a David Tyree moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBv38ahelms

Krauss is great.  If you haven't read his book Universe from Nothing yet I highly recommend it, I've read it twice.  

 

[tonydead]

I could enumerate where I would have said something different than BL, but he comes across as genuine, helpful, and kind.  

I think you suffer from Jesus bias.

 

[tonydead]

I like people who are genuine, helpful, and kind. Regardless of their religious persuasion. I wish more people came across as genuine, helpful, and kind in these discussions. 

If only religion was like that then maybe we could.  Sorry, it used to be we could sit by idle wondering what the real harm is with religion in the 21st century, 9/11 changed all that.

 

[Jayrok]

The whole contradictions thing is silly.  Passages are only contradictory if one views the text as historical biographies (in the case of the gospels).  Viewing them this way will certainly reveal some contradictions among/between the different gospels.  But doing so would miss the point of the narratives.  

Christian apologetics is the sad and often nasty product of people thinking every gospel account of some event has to harmonize perfectly to be the word of God.  If one is correct, another is not correct because they differ... Can't be God's perfect word!  There goes the baby with the bath water.  

The gospels built upon each other and were altered enough as the author saw fit to present to his specific community of believers.  There are lots of examples, but just to pick one that demonstrates a good simple reason for changing a few details in a story, compare Mark 10:35-45 with Matthew 20:20-28.  

This is the short episode where James and John, the sons of Zebedee, ask Jesus if they can sit at his right and left sides in the kingdom of God.  In Matthew's version of this exchange, it is the mother of James and John who ask Jesus for this favor on their behalf.  

The point of this story was to show the disciples they were not here to sit in judgment or authority over others, but they were here to serve others.  Whoever wants to be first must be last.  So no promise was made to them as it seemed counter to Jesus' teachings on serving rather than being served. Their request also didn't sit well with the other 10 disciples and could lead to jealousy among them.   

Some skeptics call this a contradiction... "well, was it the brothers or was it their mother who asked Jesus this favor?"  There's no contradiction here, just a simple change of texts between the two authors.  The disciples in Mark are depicted as stubborn without the ability to understand what was going on with Jesus' teachings.  They ask Jesus can they sit with him at his side in the kingdom.  

Matthew softens the arragance/naivity of the disciples as he tells this story.  Matthew includes a parable about workers in the vineyard that illustrates Jesus' message about he who is first shall be last and he who is last shall be first.  So after hearing this parable, Matthew didn't want the two brothers to ask such a favor of Jesus.  But he wanted to keep the story as it was included in Mark, his source.  So he added the mother of the brothers to ask Jesus on their behalf.  The disciples were a little more understanding in Matthew than the meatheads in Mark.  From the parable of the vineyard, they learned that there is no favoritism in the kingdom of God.  So maybe they shouldn't ask for one. And Matthew probably didn't want to portray the disciples as displaying the very characteristics that Jesus criticized in his teaching about serving rather than being served.  So he had the mother ask on their behalf because they should know better.  

Now the job of the apologist is to harmonize every word of the Bible so they fit perfectly together.  The common explanation of who it was that asked Jesus for the favor was both the mother and the sons.  The apologist says it was two separate occassions.  The disciples asked first and didn't like their answer and went and told their mother who then came and asked Jesus again on their behalf.  This is proposterous and unnecessary.  It doesn't fit the narrative and is just silly. But that is the life of a Christian apologist. And he/she will argue until the trumpet sounds.  

Luke and John scrap the story altogether as it doesn't serve their purpose.  The gospels are not historical biographies.  They are stories that are told in a way to depict a certain image of Jesus for a specific audience.  That is why the depiction of Jesus is different from, say, Mark to John.  

 

[matuski]

I could enumerate where I would have said something different than BL, but he comes across as genuine, helpful, and kind. 

I would disagree, but then again I tend to bring out the worst in religious folk here.

 

[tonydead]

That is a convenient way for you to disregard anything I say. 

Hard to take you seriously after categorizing Bobby the past couple days as helpful and kind.

 

[tonydead]

It's funny how, of roughly 4200 religions in the world, that you are able to lump all of them into the same category and describe them all as the same thing. But, since I am a Christian, clearly I am the one who has a bias problem in this discussion. 

Yeah it's easy to lump them together because the root of the problem is the same for each and every one.

 

[Politician Spock]

I could enumerate where I would have said something different than BL, but he comes across as genuine, helpful, and kind. 

I like people who are genuine, helpful, and kind. Regardless of their religious persuasion. I wish more people came across as genuine, helpful, and kind in these discussions. 

He was quite condescending to me. And then a few posts later accused someone else of being condescending. So in my opinion, not only is he condescending, he's a hypocrite too. 

But I'm not shocked. Christianity seems to have lots of condescending hypocrites. 

 

[Politician Spock]

The whole contradictions thing is silly.  Passages are only contradictory if one views the text as historical biographies (in the case of the gospels).  Viewing them this way will certainly reveal some contradictions among/between the different gospels.  But doing so would miss the point of the narratives.  

Christian apologetics is the sad and often nasty product of people thinking every gospel account of some event has to harmonize perfectly to be the word of God.  If one is correct, another is not correct because they differ... Can't be God's perfect word!  There goes the baby with the bath water.  

The gospels built upon each other and were altered enough as the author saw fit to present to his specific community of believers.  There are lots of examples, but just to pick one that demonstrates a good simple reason for changing a few details in a story, compare Mark 10:35-45 with Matthew 20:20-28.  

This is the short episode where James and John, the sons of Zebedee, ask Jesus if they can sit at his right and left sides in the kingdom of God.  In Matthew's version of this exchange, it is the mother of James and John who ask Jesus for this favor on their behalf.  

The point of this story was to show the disciples they were not here to sit in judgment or authority over others, but they were here to serve others.  Whoever wants to be first must be last.  So no promise was made to them as it seemed counter to Jesus' teachings on serving rather than being served. Their request also didn't sit well with the other 10 disciples and could lead to jealousy among them.   

Some skeptics call this a contradiction... "well, was it the brothers or was it their mother who asked Jesus this favor?"  There's no contradiction here, just a simple change of texts between the two authors.  The disciples in Mark are depicted as stubborn without the ability to understand what was going on with Jesus' teachings.  They ask Jesus can they sit with him at his side in the kingdom.  

Matthew softens the arragance/naivity of the disciples as he tells this story.  Matthew includes a parable about workers in the vineyard that illustrates Jesus' message about he who is first shall be last and he who is last shall be first.  So after hearing this parable, Matthew didn't want the two brothers to ask such a favor of Jesus.  But he wanted to keep the story as it was included in Mark, his source.  So he added the mother of the brothers to ask Jesus on their behalf.  The disciples were a little more understanding in Matthew than the meatheads in Mark.  From the parable of the vineyard, they learned that there is no favoritism in the kingdom of God.  So maybe they shouldn't ask for one. And Matthew probably didn't want to portray the disciples as displaying the very characteristics that Jesus criticized in his teaching about serving rather than being served.  So he had the mother ask on their behalf because they should know better.  

Now the job of the apologist is to harmonize every word of the Bible so they fit perfectly together.  The common explanation of who it was that asked Jesus for the favor was both the mother and the sons.  The apologist says it was two separate occassions.  The disciples asked first and didn't like their answer and went and told their mother who then came and asked Jesus again on their behalf.  This is proposterous and unnecessary.  It doesn't fit the narrative and is just silly. But that is the life of a Christian apologist. And he/she will argue until the trumpet sounds.  

Luke and John scrap the story altogether as it doesn't serve their purpose.  The gospels are not historical biographies.  They are stories that are told in a way to depict a certain image of Jesus for a specific audience.  That is why the depiction of Jesus is different from, say, Mark to John.  

I love the teachings of Jesus, and I don't need every book that wrote about what he taught to agree on everything to appreciate his teachings. 

Elevating the books to "god's holy word" status.... sorry, can't do that anymore. Don't get me wrong. I like the books. I also like a lot of christian authors. Francis Chan immediately comes to mind. Loved reading his books. But I'm not going to elevate his books to "god's holy word" status because I liked them so much.  

If god wanted us to have a book authored by him that says Jesus is god, he would have given Jesus pen and paper. He didn't because Jesus isn't god, and the books of the bible aren't holy. 

 

[tonydead]

Cool. Not much more for us to discuss then. Good talk. 

Disappointed, was hoping you could help explain why you think Christianity should be distinguished from the other 4199.  

 

[Politician Spock]

I didn't say everything he said was helpful and kind. I said he came across as helpful and kind, but that isn't an endorsement of everything he said. 

I would hope my history of generally being more critical of Christians is noted

It is. But to be clear, I'm critical of christianity. Christians are the victims. 

 

[Jayrok]

I love the teachings of Jesus, and I don't need every book that wrote about what he taught to agree on everything to appreciate his teachings. 

Elevating the books to "god's holy word" status.... sorry, can't do that anymore. Don't get me wrong. I like the books. I also like a lot of christian authors. Francis Chan immediately comes to mind. Loved reading his books. But I'm not going to elevate his books to "god's holy word" status because I liked them so much.  

If god wanted us to have a book authored by him that says Jesus is god, he would have given Jesus pen and paper. He didn't because Jesus isn't god, and the books of the bible aren't holy. 

I was speaking in terms of how the Christian apologist defends the Bible as being the holy word of God.  They think every word is God-breathed.  Obviously I'm no Christian apologist. 

I agree that if an all powerful God wanted a book published that accurately depicted his will, he would make it so.  

 

[Politician Spock]

If you wanted an answer to a question, it would have helped if you'd asked, you know. 

It depends in what sense you mean. Do you mean a legal sense, or a "how did you pick that one" sense?

I became a protestant Christian because I was born to a protestant Christian family. I was raised this way, and fully admit that I don't have any magic insight that will somehow justify my faith. In fact, if I had that insight, wouldn't it then cease to be faith? I am comfortable in my religious tradition despite its many flaws, and believe staying in it is the best thing for my family despite the fact that I can never absolutely know that it is correct simply by the nature of what it is. I think apologetics are futile at best, and feel no need to fight for what I believe (given that my religion is the dominant religion in my context and rather than being persecuted for it, it is a source of privelege for me) or convince anyone else to believe it.

I am a Christian because I am. I am comfortable with that. I recognize that some people need more than that, can't find it, and choose not to believe. I recognize that others need more than that and engage in apologetics because they are uncomfortable stating the obvious fact that if the claims Christianity makes are true, there is absolutely no way for us to be certain. I don't find either of those options particularly appealing, and the vast majority of people fall into one or the other. So here I sit, in the middle, with the Christians on one side and the atheists on the other both thinking I am a fool. 

I used to really care about being able to prove myself right. I don't anymore. 

Sounds a lot like why people practice the other 4199. 

 

[Politician Spock]

"The Other 4199" would be a good band name. 

 

[tonydead]

If you wanted an answer to a question, it would have helped if you'd asked, you know. 

It depends in what sense you mean. Do you mean a legal sense, or a "how did you pick that one" sense?

I became a protestant Christian because I was born to a protestant Christian family. I was raised this way, and fully admit that I don't have any magic insight that will somehow justify my faith. In fact, if I had that insight, wouldn't it then cease to be faith? I am comfortable in my religious tradition despite its many flaws, and believe staying in it is the best thing for my family despite the fact that I can never absolutely know that it is correct simply by the nature of what it is. I think apologetics are futile at best, and feel no need to fight for what I believe (given that my religion is the dominant religion in my context and rather than being persecuted for it, it is a source of privelege for me) or convince anyone else to believe it.

I am a Christian because I am. I am comfortable with that. I recognize that some people need more than that, can't find it, and choose not to believe. I recognize that others need more than that and engage in apologetics because they are uncomfortable stating the obvious fact that if the claims Christianity makes are true, there is absolutely no way for us to be certain. I don't find either of those options particularly appealing, and the vast majority of people fall into one or the other. So here I sit, in the middle, with the Christians on one side and the atheists on the other both thinking I am a fool. 

I used to really care about being able to prove myself right. I don't anymore. 

Thanks!  A couple thoughts:

1- I don't think you are a fool.

2- Most people are born and raised into it (I was too).  And I take issue with that for many reasons that I won't get in to other than I feel it's the biggest reason that it is taking us so long to evolve past it.

3- Neither of us can say for certain.  I like to ask what's more likely and that works for me more that it does some people because I'm science based.

4- I wouldn't argue against anyone doing something for what is best for your family.  It's in our genes to protect the family unit and only you can decide whats best to protect your genes.

5- There a millions of Muslims and millions of Jews that were born into it and are rationalizing it just the way you are, so, I don't see how you distinguished it from any of the other religions.

 

[Politician Spock]

Indeed. I hope you didn't mistake that as a defense of my one. 

Not really. I was just hoping you were going to explain why you think Christianity should be distinguished from the other 4199.

 

[Willie Neslon]

I subscribe to the Neil deGrasse Tyson line of thinking in terms of death, "afterlife" & religion.