HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE! Read This First Post, THEN Q & A Discussion! ASK QUESTIONS HERE! (1 Viewer)

[Paddington]

I think this is what the report button is for, folks.

Like that matters. This is at least the 10th iteration of this thread. The powers that be know all about it, they’re just obviously OK with it.

What forum rule does this violate?

It's spam. He's made dozens of the same thread.

Oh, yeah, I can see that. There should only be one of these threads. But, I don't see a problem (from a forums-rule POV) with him continuing to post in this thread.

I would also argue that there' also never any real attempt at discussion. Just constant bumps with the same advertisement.

If I made similar threads but was promoting a business, it would get shut down immediately.

This.

To be clear I’m not advocating for any action to be taken, philosophically I’m not a ban hammer guy. But there is no question this type of spamming posts would not be (and have not been) tolerated if it were another topic.

As long as the "spamming" stays in one place it's all good with me. If it were to start to show up in other threads then it becomes an issue/would justify the ban hammer.

It's not spam. It's a discussion about how to get to heaven when you die. I made others because, when I came back here, I couldn't find the thread. Sorry about that.

 

[Paddington]

I don’t have a problem with people preaching to me, and am frankly a little offended/hurt when people who I think care for me make no effort to proselytize.

But the whole idea of an omnipotent, omniscient being caring one iota about our sinful ways, and sacrificing his son to atone for them makes zero sense.

Clearly (s)he could do something far more direct to get us in line, like maybe part the skies and explain the problem, or Old Testament style punishment.

But with such power, he’d probably care about as much for individual humans as I care about an ant.

Basically, it's like this, God is the King of the Universe. Like any King, He has a Kingdom, which is the entire Universe and Spiritual World. Everything was created by Him and as such, we must all obey HIS Laws. In any Kingdom, if you break the Law, you go to prison. It's the same way with God's Kingdom. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes (sins) against God. God does NOT want to send us there. He loves all of us and wants to spend eternity with us, but His righteous nature demands justice for our crimes against Him. So, in a legal transaction and out of HIs love for us, He sent His only Son to come to this earth, live a perfect life and die and rise again for our sins. This enabled God to extend a pardon to each one of us individually. Those who reject the pardon, have to pay for their own sins by going to hell and those who accept the pardon are free to live with Him eternally in heaven. No one has to go to hell. It's something people choose to do by rejecting their Pardon through Faith in Jesus Christ, believing that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice to God for our sins. Place your faith in Christ. Read this first post. Yes I do care about you, but not as much as God does. He has provided a way for you through His only Son.

 

[Paddington]

I think this is what the report button is for, folks.

Like that matters. This is at least the 10th iteration of this thread. The powers that be know all about it, they’re just obviously OK with it.

What forum rule does this violate?

It's spam. He's made dozens of the same thread.

Oh, yeah, I can see that. There should only be one of these threads. But, I don't see a problem (from a forums-rule POV) with him continuing to post in this thread.

I would also argue that there' also never any real attempt at discussion. Just constant bumps with the same advertisement.

If I made similar threads but was promoting a business, it would get shut down immediately.

If you have any questions or anything that you would like to discuss, ask me. I am here. If I come here and don't have any questions to answer or things to discuss, what am I supposed to do?

 

[Paddington]

Furthermore...I believe religion was created by humans for 2 reasons.
1) To help push a stronger moral life. The threat of a bad afterlife can be motivating
2) Because we as humans can't accept that this life is all we get. There has to be something more. We can't just die right? So an afterlife was created to alleviate those fears in many.

I don't believe it...at all...I believe when we die--we die. Poof. All over in an instant. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure we don't actually know when we die. We know we are dying sure, but when we actually die? Yeah..We're dead. So we won't have a moment where we go "gee, I'm dead." It's a scary thought at times, and also not scary at all. but humans needed something....and poof!! Religion came to be.

This doesn't explain, Creation of all things from nothing, The Bible prophecies written hundreds of years before the birth of Christ regarding His place of birth, life, manner of death, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, ect. Also, it doesn't explain the changed lives by Faith in Christ, NDE's. I personally know many people who have had CLEAR out of body experiences. Two of which had both died and were were brought by by the Hospital. Both said that it was as real, or more real than being inside of their body. They felt, tasted, smelled, felt the air in their face, heard, ect. You need to reconsider your position because forever is a VERY long time.

 

[Paddington]

Rrrrrriiiiiggggghhhhhtttt!

This might be the saddest thing I've ever read.

Well that's pretty sad then.

 

[Paddington]

He literally posts this on dozens if not 100's of forums. Doesn't make for good conversation.

Yea I guess that's true. But I don't know a lot of real Christians just a bunch of the Sunday morning types. So my questions were something I was interested in. Especially the one about the gay folks. I mean how could a child molester go to heaven ? But two loving God fearing people who had led extremely good lives not just because they are gay.

Also a little interested in the hypocritical aspect of someone who is really sick suddenly getting religion.

The bible is very ambiguous about this. In one passage it says 'man will not lie with man', but it another passage Jesus says to Lucifer 'get thee behind me'.

So who knows?

Why do you speak blasphemy against the Lord Jesus Christ? You need to repent of this evil and turn to Jesus for Salvation, believe that He died and rose again for your sins.

There's a lot more to life than making sure you have adequate fire insurance.

I'm not trying to be mean here. I'm a believer. It's not a once a week duty thing for me; Jesus permeates every aspect of my life from the moment I wake up (usually too early), influences how I live my life, and changes me - changed me, is changing me - irrevocably. A faith that doesn't change you doesn't save you.

But let's be real clear here: you are way out of line telling people they need to repent.

I need a savior. You need Jesus. We all do. Yes and amen that true repentance means turning away from that which harms us and harms those around us. But the whole point of walking with Jesus is NOT so you can turn around and start pointing out other people's shortcomings. Because guess what genius, we have the Holy Spirit.

We know from Ecclesiastes 3 and Romans 1 that God already put within every person the longing for meaning, and that our own conscience convicts us of our shortcomings. They already know, that's universal, no one needs your lame attempts. When you become a believer, the Spirit convicts you of sin. The same power that raised Christ from the dead dwells within each believer. One aspect of the indwelling Holy Spirit is He brings us into alignment with His will (through reading the Word, through hearing preaching, through worship.)

But before that life changing repentance happens, you are dead in sin. Like seriously, have you ever read Romans? Would you walk up to a dead pigeon and ask it to move? When you're dead you don't hear anything. Are you sure you're a Christian....I mean, because that's pretty foundational, if you don't get that, I'm not sure you understand the gospel.

You won't find a single instance of Jesus condemning sinners who came to him. But you know what really made his blood boil? You remember what filled him with righteous indignation, got him so fired up he flipped over tables, drove them out of the temple with a whip (which he took the time to fasten himself whilst getting that anger worked up)? Religious hypocrites - the Pharisees. The people who thought they were better than everyone else. The people who knew every aspect of the law and lived holier than thou and wagged their fingers at lesser men. The religious people of his day - that is who Jesus spoke "woe unto you" toward. Not people who were just trying to live their life.

Jesus did often say at the conclusion of healing someone...or after interacting with them (the woman at the well, the woman caught in the very act of adultery)...to "go and sin no more." But that's after finding out where they were at....after determining what they needed...after healing them, after delivering something tangible. He never starts out with "oh, you're a drunkard? you're a prostitute? well you need to repent, so jot that down." He took the time to get to know people. He accepted where they were at in their journey. Can you imagine, instead, a Jesus who walks through the crowds shouting "REPENT!"

Pretty absurd imagery, right? So why do you do that? Why are you so afraid of being vulnerable and getting to know people? Why are you hiding behind your proclamations without admitting you're just as screwed up as the rest of us? You feel me?

My brother in Christ (not an internet euphemism), folks don't need an end of life contingency. They need help right here right now. They need something that is real. They need truth that makes sense of this crazy mixed up thing called life. They're not interested in shoe horning their dysfunction into outdated man-made religious models that have failed society for centuries.

Drive-by postings are nothing more than a clanging cymbal. The sound will fade soon enough but the memory of the annoyance will linger. That's your legacy with this little piece of performance art, bro. If you don't know how to connect with people in a way that is genuine and on their level, have a seat. You're even less effective that white shirt skinny black tie street preachers on a college campus with an electronic bullhorn. Nothing more than annoying sound that will fade as soon as the students walk away (or board members close this awful thread.)

There is real, life changing power in the gospel of Jesus Christ. You treat it like it's some cheap wonder product from a 3am 1990s style infomercial.

The gospel never asks us to clean up ourselves so we can then be considered worthy of going before the Lord. Goodness, do you read your bible? Christianity is the one religion which offers forgiveness and salvation without being dependent on ourselves. No sacrifices, no amount of discipline or self-righteous deeds will achieve anything. That's hot garbage - it's what the Bible calls filthy rags. On your best day all the good you think is within you is equivalent to used toilet paper.

The gospel is where God says "I know you. I get it. There's nothing you can do to make yourself good enough for me. That's why I made a way for you. That's why I sent my Son. You don't have to do all that striving." On the cross, Christ Jesus took upon himself all sin - past, present and future - and paid the price that should have been ours. Then in the resurrection, he conquered death (because sin leads to death); he broke the power of sin and death. He did that. It is finished. In exchange for taking our sins, He gave us the righteousness of Christ. That's the most lopsided trade in history, way worse than Ricky Williams, Herschel Walker or Denny McLain. We give up (repent) our sin. and in exchange can stand before the Father spotless. Makes no sense, but that's the deal.

It's free, you don't have to do anything except believe. It's not even your own faith - he provides that as well. It's more than just mumbling a few words, this ain't Harry Potter.

But it does start with a simple "I'm sorry. I believe you came here, and you made a way for me to have a relationship with the God who created this universe. I want to follow you and live my life for you." If it's real, that little spark can grow into a roaring fire. Religion - which never helped anyone - tells people they have to live their life a certain way, live a restricted life of sacrifice and doing good. Then maybe (but we're never sure), they'll be counted worthy. Christianity starts with acceptance, forgiveness, and assurance. As a believer you cannot help but want to live your life for the God who did all that for you when you were still his enemy.

My advice: engage. Or stay away. But stop annoying us with this b.s. you're slinging. If you are truly interested in pointing people to jesus, start with something that is relatable and genuine and actually makes sense. This entire thread is a nonsensical word salad. Do better.

If you learn nothing else from this diatribe, know this: people don't remember what you said, but they will remember how you made them feel.

People don't follow advice. Like, from their dad, maybe, their best friend or mentor, possibly....but even then, usually not. They often don't remember exactly you said. You know what sticks? The emotion they experienced after being around you. They don't remember what you said or why you said it, but they will always ,100% of the time, recall how they felt after they encountered you. If you have any interest whatsoever at being an effective communicator, focus on how your message is or is not being received. If it's the latter, the listener/reader is not the one who needs to make an adjustment.

Let's worry about saving their soul before we beat them over the head with how they aught to live ok? Salvation is NOT by works of righteousness which WE have done, Jesus saved US. It's by faith in Him and His death, burial and resurrection , believing that He shed His blood as a Sacrifice for our sins. AFTER Salvation, we can worry about how to live for Christ, rewards, ect. You are putting the cart before the horse. The repenting is to turn from their unbelief, reliance of self, anything other than Christ for Salvation and turning to Jesus Christ alone for Salvation.

 

[Paddington]

Im definitely spiritual and try to believe/live bya moral code and that a higher power is there to guide us and hopefully move forward with us after we are done in this world.

As for religion - not a fan - I grew up Catholic and the exclusion, the pedophilia, the hypocrisy did me in, I have a gay son who is an awesome person - any religion or ancient book that believes he is condemned or looked down upon in any way for who he chooses to love is not something Im interested nor have respect.

Salvation is NOT by good deeds, but rather it is by FAITH alone in Jesus Christ, believing in your heart that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for your sins. As far as your Son goes, God loves him and desires to save him like anyone else. You and your Son need to admit that you are a sinner (like everyone else) turn to Christ from unbelief, reliance on anything else, ect. submit your will to His and have Faith in Jesus Christ ALONE to save you from your sins. Trust in His death, shed blood, burial and resurrection to save you from your sins.

 

[Paddington]

Man, thought this was going to be a Tool thread...

If you want to get your soul to Heaven
Trust in me now, don't you judge or question

That is NOT the criteria for getting to heaven. We are to Judge good from evil, truth from fiction. We aren't allowed to look down our nose at others and think we are better than them. That is what is meant by Judge Not.

 

[Paddington]

I assume there have been some rules changes, or else he'd just bump one of his many other identical threads.

I kinda respect the dedication to the shtick. They have been a member for seven years just to post about one topic.

I admit my passion is for the Gospel. If there was more discussion or questions here, I would be glad to come here a lot more than I do. I am currently answering a lot of long over due posts. I hope to spur more respectful discussion about this topic.

 

[BlackCrowes]

Im definitely spiritual and try to believe/live bya moral code and that a higher power is there to guide us and hopefully move forward with us after we are done in this world.

As for religion - not a fan - I grew up Catholic and the exclusion, the pedophilia, the hypocrisy did me in, I have a gay son who is an awesome person - any religion or ancient book that believes he is condemned or looked down upon in any way for who he chooses to love is not something Im interested nor have respect.

Salvation is NOT by good deeds, but rather it is by FAITH alone in Jesus Christ, believing in your heart that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for your sins. As far as your Son goes, God loves him and desires to save him like anyone else. You and your Son need to admit that you are a sinner (like everyone else) turn to Christ from unbelief, reliance on anything else, ect. submit your will to His and have Faith in Jesus Christ ALONE to save you from your sins. Trust in His death, shed blood, burial and resurrection to save you from your sins.

But the Catholics are good right, because they go the extra mile?

 

[Paddington]

@PaddingtonI'm guessing your a real Christian instead of the Sunday morning type.

So to be honest I think I believe in a higher power (God). But man I have seen some pretty awful things in my life that has made me question his existence .

To be honest I have really kind of believed that human kind so vastly fears their mortality that religions have been created in both ancient and modern times to alleviate fears of death and forever disappearing from existence hence eternal life.

I do wonder however if a person is facing a serious health issue possibly even death. If he suddenly gets religion does God look down and say sure dude now you believe. Sorry hypocrite you don't get into the club.

Also maybe you can explain this to me and I'm not trying to be a jerk. My example is this a child molester in his last days truly accepts the lord Jesus as his savior he is admitted to everlasting life in heaven.

Now there is a loving couple who goes to Church faifully their whole lives never hurt a soul and truly believes in God. Only problem is they are homosexual an abomination in the eyes of the lord and they are condemned to hell. Why is that?

The health question is kind of on a personal level. If I walk into Church now is he going to think I'm a hypocrite or is he just going to send a lighting bolt down and scare me away from the front doors of the church?

First off, we have ALL had very bad things happen to us in this life, myself included. I have seen and experienced some really bad things in my own life. But because I really do trust in the Lord, He has always been here for me when I really need Him. I have had Him speak to me and comfort me in my lowest times. He has even criticized my faults and mistakes in the situations. He is a good God and very loving. As far as people who are on their death bed, YES God certainly will take them!!! God desires to save all men and He will take what He can get out of this life, BUT in the next life, it will be too late to choose. By not choosing you are choosing against Him. Child molesters will be dealt with by God in the Judgement and it will be a very harsh judgement. What you need to worry about is getting YOUR life right with God. Because we are all sinners and in need of a Savior. Homosexuality is a sin like any other sin, but desires to save us all. If they turn to Christ in Faith and believe that Jesus Christ died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for their sins, then God will save them and God will deal with their sins. The first thing is to turn to Christ from unbelief, ext. Church doesn't save anyone, only Faith in Christ can. God will welcome you with open arms if you will only humble yourself before Him, submit your will to Him in Faith, admit you are a sinner in need of a Savior, place your Faith in Jesus Christ, believing that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for your sins and trust in HIM to save you. Very sorry that it took me so long to get to your question. I really do care and I will be back to check on this. Hopefully we can keep talking about this. PLEASE read this first post if you haven't yet and give your life to Christ. He loves YOU so much that He DIED for YOU!

 

[Paddington]

Im definitely spiritual and try to believe/live bya moral code and that a higher power is there to guide us and hopefully move forward with us after we are done in this world.

As for religion - not a fan - I grew up Catholic and the exclusion, the pedophilia, the hypocrisy did me in, I have a gay son who is an awesome person - any religion or ancient book that believes he is condemned or looked down upon in any way for who he chooses to love is not something Im interested nor have respect.

Salvation is NOT by good deeds, but rather it is by FAITH alone in Jesus Christ, believing in your heart that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for your sins. As far as your Son goes, God loves him and desires to save him like anyone else. You and your Son need to admit that you are a sinner (like everyone else) turn to Christ from unbelief, reliance on anything else, ect. submit your will to His and have Faith in Jesus Christ ALONE to save you from your sins. Trust in His death, shed blood, burial and resurrection to save you from your sins.

But the Catholics are good right, because they go the extra mile?

I have a lot of Catholic friends who are excellent people. Are they saved? That depends on IF they are placing their faith In Jesus Christ alone and His death and resurrection to pay for their sins or if they are trusting in something else or adding something else to the Gospel. ONLY Jesus can save, not the Church, not Baptism, not good deeds, not being a good person (because we are already sinners), not communion, nothing other than FAITH in Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice for our sins.

 

[Paddington]

I SENT THIS MESSAGE TO ASK AI REGARDING THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS AND THIS IS THE RESPONSE I RECEIVED:

ME:

Write me an essay on how the secular, historical, non Biblical writings regarding Christ and shortly thereafter, affirm the resurrection of Jesus Christ :

ASK AI RESPONSE:

The resurrection of Jesus Christ is a central tenet of the Christian faith, and is regarded as a miraculous event that forms the basis of Christian belief. While the New Testament of the Bible provides a detailed account of the resurrection, there are also secular and historical writings that attest to the event.

One of the most significant secular sources to affirm the resurrection is the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus. Josephus, who was born in the first century AD and lived through the first Jewish-Roman war, wrote extensively about Jewish history and the Roman occupation of Palestine. In his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus mentions Jesus twice, and in one of these references, he describes how Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, but that his disciples claimed he had appeared to them alive on the third day after his death.

Another secular source that affirms the resurrection is the Roman historian Tacitus. In his Annals, Tacitus describes how Nero blamed the Christians for the Great Fire of Rome in 64 AD, and how they followed a man named Christus who had been executed by Pontius Pilate. Tacitus also states that Christus "suffered the extreme penalty" and that his followers "had their name from him." While this reference does not explicitly mention the resurrection, it provides independent confirmation of the historical existence of Jesus and the events surrounding his death.

The Roman philosopher and statesman Seneca the Younger is another notable historical figure who wrote about the resurrection. In his Epistles, Seneca mentions the Christian belief in the resurrection, and describes it as a belief in the immortality of the soul. While Seneca does not directly affirm the resurrection, his writing provides evidence of the early Christian belief in the resurrection and the impact it had on Roman society.
Other historical sources that affirm the resurrection include the early Christian writer Clement of Rome, who wrote in the late first century AD about the resurrection of Jesus and its significance for Christians. The apostolic fathers, such as Ignatius of Antioch, also wrote about the resurrection and its importance for the Christian faith.

In conclusion, while the New Testament of the Bible provides the most detailed account of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, there are also secular and historical sources that attest to the event. These sources, which include Flavius Josephus, Tacitus, Seneca the Younger, and the early Christian writers, provide independent confirmation of the reality of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, and testify to the profound impact that this event had on the early Christian community.

What’s your takeaway from this? The AI response seems predictable here.

I think that we can't rely on an AI for our Biblical Theology because it's going to be skewed in favor of Liberalism many times which is bad theology. It's based on what the person WANTS the passage to mean rather than what it actually says. AI isn't led by the Holy Spirit either, so, that's another issue.

 

[BobbyLayne]

He literally posts this on dozens if not 100's of forums. Doesn't make for good conversation.

Yea I guess that's true. But I don't know a lot of real Christians just a bunch of the Sunday morning types. So my questions were something I was interested in. Especially the one about the gay folks. I mean how could a child molester go to heaven ? But two loving God fearing people who had led extremely good lives not just because they are gay.

Also a little interested in the hypocritical aspect of someone who is really sick suddenly getting religion.

The bible is very ambiguous about this. In one passage it says 'man will not lie with man', but it another passage Jesus says to Lucifer 'get thee behind me'.

So who knows?

Why do you speak blasphemy against the Lord Jesus Christ? You need to repent of this evil and turn to Jesus for Salvation, believe that He died and rose again for your sins.

There's a lot more to life than making sure you have adequate fire insurance.

I'm not trying to be mean here. I'm a believer. It's not a once a week duty thing for me; Jesus permeates every aspect of my life from the moment I wake up (usually too early), influences how I live my life, and changes me - changed me, is changing me - irrevocably. A faith that doesn't change you doesn't save you.

But let's be real clear here: you are way out of line telling people they need to repent.

I need a savior. You need Jesus. We all do. Yes and amen that true repentance means turning away from that which harms us and harms those around us. But the whole point of walking with Jesus is NOT so you can turn around and start pointing out other people's shortcomings. Because guess what genius, we have the Holy Spirit.

We know from Ecclesiastes 3 and Romans 1 that God already put within every person the longing for meaning, and that our own conscience convicts us of our shortcomings. They already know, that's universal, no one needs your lame attempts. When you become a believer, the Spirit convicts you of sin. The same power that raised Christ from the dead dwells within each believer. One aspect of the indwelling Holy Spirit is He brings us into alignment with His will (through reading the Word, through hearing preaching, through worship.)

But before that life changing repentance happens, you are dead in sin. Like seriously, have you ever read Romans? Would you walk up to a dead pigeon and ask it to move? When you're dead you don't hear anything. Are you sure you're a Christian....I mean, because that's pretty foundational, if you don't get that, I'm not sure you understand the gospel.

You won't find a single instance of Jesus condemning sinners who came to him. But you know what really made his blood boil? You remember what filled him with righteous indignation, got him so fired up he flipped over tables, drove them out of the temple with a whip (which he took the time to fasten himself whilst getting that anger worked up)? Religious hypocrites - the Pharisees. The people who thought they were better than everyone else. The people who knew every aspect of the law and lived holier than thou and wagged their fingers at lesser men. The religious people of his day - that is who Jesus spoke "woe unto you" toward. Not people who were just trying to live their life.

Jesus did often say at the conclusion of healing someone...or after interacting with them (the woman at the well, the woman caught in the very act of adultery)...to "go and sin no more." But that's after finding out where they were at....after determining what they needed...after healing them, after delivering something tangible. He never starts out with "oh, you're a drunkard? you're a prostitute? well you need to repent, so jot that down." He took the time to get to know people. He accepted where they were at in their journey. Can you imagine, instead, a Jesus who walks through the crowds shouting "REPENT!"

Pretty absurd imagery, right? So why do you do that? Why are you so afraid of being vulnerable and getting to know people? Why are you hiding behind your proclamations without admitting you're just as screwed up as the rest of us? You feel me?

My brother in Christ (not an internet euphemism), folks don't need an end of life contingency. They need help right here right now. They need something that is real. They need truth that makes sense of this crazy mixed up thing called life. They're not interested in shoe horning their dysfunction into outdated man-made religious models that have failed society for centuries.

Drive-by postings are nothing more than a clanging cymbal. The sound will fade soon enough but the memory of the annoyance will linger. That's your legacy with this little piece of performance art, bro. If you don't know how to connect with people in a way that is genuine and on their level, have a seat. You're even less effective that white shirt skinny black tie street preachers on a college campus with an electronic bullhorn. Nothing more than annoying sound that will fade as soon as the students walk away (or board members close this awful thread.)

There is real, life changing power in the gospel of Jesus Christ. You treat it like it's some cheap wonder product from a 3am 1990s style infomercial.

The gospel never asks us to clean up ourselves so we can then be considered worthy of going before the Lord. Goodness, do you read your bible? Christianity is the one religion which offers forgiveness and salvation without being dependent on ourselves. No sacrifices, no amount of discipline or self-righteous deeds will achieve anything. That's hot garbage - it's what the Bible calls filthy rags. On your best day all the good you think is within you is equivalent to used toilet paper.

The gospel is where God says "I know you. I get it. There's nothing you can do to make yourself good enough for me. That's why I made a way for you. That's why I sent my Son. You don't have to do all that striving." On the cross, Christ Jesus took upon himself all sin - past, present and future - and paid the price that should have been ours. Then in the resurrection, he conquered death (because sin leads to death); he broke the power of sin and death. He did that. It is finished. In exchange for taking our sins, He gave us the righteousness of Christ. That's the most lopsided trade in history, way worse than Ricky Williams, Herschel Walker or Denny McLain. We give up (repent) our sin. and in exchange can stand before the Father spotless. Makes no sense, but that's the deal.

It's free, you don't have to do anything except believe. It's not even your own faith - he provides that as well. It's more than just mumbling a few words, this ain't Harry Potter.

But it does start with a simple "I'm sorry. I believe you came here, and you made a way for me to have a relationship with the God who created this universe. I want to follow you and live my life for you." If it's real, that little spark can grow into a roaring fire. Religion - which never helped anyone - tells people they have to live their life a certain way, live a restricted life of sacrifice and doing good. Then maybe (but we're never sure), they'll be counted worthy. Christianity starts with acceptance, forgiveness, and assurance. As a believer you cannot help but want to live your life for the God who did all that for you when you were still his enemy.

My advice: engage. Or stay away. But stop annoying us with this b.s. you're slinging. If you are truly interested in pointing people to jesus, start with something that is relatable and genuine and actually makes sense. This entire thread is a nonsensical word salad. Do better.

If you learn nothing else from this diatribe, know this: people don't remember what you said, but they will remember how you made them feel.

People don't follow advice. Like, from their dad, maybe, their best friend or mentor, possibly....but even then, usually not. They often don't remember exactly you said. You know what sticks? The emotion they experienced after being around you. They don't remember what you said or why you said it, but they will always ,100% of the time, recall how they felt after they encountered you. If you have any interest whatsoever at being an effective communicator, focus on how your message is or is not being received. If it's the latter, the listener/reader is not the one who needs to make an adjustment.

Let's worry about saving their soul before we beat them over the head with how they aught to live ok? Salvation is NOT by works of righteousness which WE have done, Jesus saved US. It's by faith in Him and His death, burial and resurrection , believing that He shed His blood as a Sacrifice for our sins. AFTER Salvation, we can worry about how to live for Christ, rewards, ect. You are putting the cart before the horse. The repenting is to turn from their unbelief, reliance of self, anything other than Christ for Salvation and turning to Jesus Christ alone for Salvation.

My post was directed at you and you alone.

 

[supermike80]

Furthermore...I believe religion was created by humans for 2 reasons.
1) To help push a stronger moral life. The threat of a bad afterlife can be motivating
2) Because we as humans can't accept that this life is all we get. There has to be something more. We can't just die right? So an afterlife was created to alleviate those fears in many.

I don't believe it...at all...I believe when we die--we die. Poof. All over in an instant. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure we don't actually know when we die. We know we are dying sure, but when we actually die? Yeah..We're dead. So we won't have a moment where we go "gee, I'm dead." It's a scary thought at times, and also not scary at all. but humans needed something....and poof!! Religion came to be.

This doesn't explain, Creation of all things from nothing, The Bible prophecies written hundreds of years before the birth of Christ regarding His place of birth, life, manner of death, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, ect. Also, it doesn't explain the changed lives by Faith in Christ, NDE's. I personally know many people who have had CLEAR out of body experiences. Two of which had both died and were were brought by by the Hospital. Both said that it was as real, or more real than being inside of their body. They felt, tasted, smelled, felt the air in their face, heard, ect. You need to reconsider your position because forever is a VERY long time.

The creation thingy is a solid one. I can't explain that. But I don't automatically assume that because I can't explain it, that it's some sort of God. Nope. The bible was written by men....There have been countless de-bunkings of written accounts of the past, simply because of writer bias. I have very little doubt this is true with the Bible. In fact, if you push me...I MIGHT give way as far a the existence of God(creation again) but religion is all 100% garbage. In my opinion of course. As far as the out of body experiences. That's just hallucinations brought on by two things. 1) the reduced oxygen going to the brain and 2) the brain knowing or believing the body was dying and it releasing hormones, endorphins, dopamine, or whatever to make that experience less traumatic. Every living thing dies...And always has. To think we haven't developed some sort of evolutionary response to that is not what I believe. As far as forever being a long time...I agree..but the thing is I will be dead so won't know it is taking place. No knowledge of that at all.

 

[Zow]

I don’t have a problem with people preaching to me, and am frankly a little offended/hurt when people who I think care for me make no effort to proselytize.

But the whole idea of an omnipotent, omniscient being caring one iota about our sinful ways, and sacrificing his son to atone for them makes zero sense.

Clearly (s)he could do something far more direct to get us in line, like maybe part the skies and explain the problem, or Old Testament style punishment.

But with such power, he’d probably care about as much for individual humans as I care about an ant.

Basically, it's like this, God is the King of the Universe. Like any King, He has a Kingdom, which is the entire Universe and Spiritual World. Everything was created by Him and as such, we must all obey HIS Laws. In any Kingdom, if you break the Law, you go to prison. It's the same way with God's Kingdom. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes (sins) against God. God does NOT want to send us there. He loves all of us and wants to spend eternity with us, but His righteous nature demands justice for our crimes against Him. So, in a legal transaction and out of HIs love for us, He sent His only Son to come to this earth, live a perfect life and die and rise again for our sins. This enabled God to extend a pardon to each one of us individually. Those who reject the pardon, have to pay for their own sins by going to hell and those who accept the pardon are free to live with Him eternally in heaven. No one has to go to hell. It's something people choose to do by rejecting their Pardon through Faith in Jesus Christ, believing that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice to God for our sins. Place your faith in Christ. Read this first post. Yes I do care about you, but not as much as God does. He has provided a way for you through His only Son.

I understand capitalizing pronouns and other terms denoting G/god, but can the bold just stop? I know this trend started with a former world leader and his tweets but using capitalization incorrectly to merely stress a term just looks so juvenile.

 

[dgreen]

The bible was written by men....There have been countless de-bunkings of written accounts of the past, simply because of writer bias. I have very little doubt this is true with the Bible.

What do you mean by this? Are you referring to historical events that didn't happen?

 

[dkp993]

I don’t have a problem with people preaching to me, and am frankly a little offended/hurt when people who I think care for me make no effort to proselytize.

But the whole idea of an omnipotent, omniscient being caring one iota about our sinful ways, and sacrificing his son to atone for them makes zero sense.

Clearly (s)he could do something far more direct to get us in line, like maybe part the skies and explain the problem, or Old Testament style punishment.

But with such power, he’d probably care about as much for individual humans as I care about an ant.

Basically, it's like this, God is the King of the Universe. Like any King, He has a Kingdom, which is the entire Universe and Spiritual World. Everything was created by Him and as such, we must all obey HIS Laws. In any Kingdom, if you break the Law, you go to prison. It's the same way with God's Kingdom. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes (sins) against God. God does NOT want to send us there. He loves all of us and wants to spend eternity with us, but His righteous nature demands justice for our crimes against Him. So, in a legal transaction and out of HIs love for us, He sent His only Son to come to this earth, live a perfect life and die and rise again for our sins. This enabled God to extend a pardon to each one of us individually. Those who reject the pardon, have to pay for their own sins by going to hell and those who accept the pardon are free to live with Him eternally in heaven. No one has to go to hell. It's something people choose to do by rejecting their Pardon through Faith in Jesus Christ, believing that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice to God for our sins. Place your faith in Christ. Read this first post. Yes I do care about you, but not as much as God does. He has provided a way for you through His only Son.

I understand capitalizing pronouns and other terms denoting G/god, but can the bold just stop? I know this trend started with a former world leader and his tweets but using capitalization incorrectly to merely stress a term just looks so juvenile.

What are You talking about?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Basically, it's like this, God is the King of the Universe. Like any King, He has a Kingdom, which is the entire Universe and Spiritual World. Everything was created by Him and as such, we must all obey HIS Laws. In any Kingdom, if you break the Law, you go to prison. It's the same way with God's Kingdom. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes (sins) against God. God does NOT want to send us there. He loves all of us and wants to spend eternity with us, but His righteous nature demands justice for our crimes against Him. So, in a legal transaction and out of HIs love for us, He sent His only Son to come to this earth, live a perfect life and die and rise again for our sins. This enabled God to extend a pardon to each one of us individually. Those who reject the pardon, have to pay for their own sins by going to hell and those who accept the pardon are free to live with Him eternally in heaven. No one has to go to hell. It's something people choose to do by rejecting their Pardon through Faith in Jesus Christ, believing that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice to God for our sins. Place your faith in Christ. Read this first post. Yes I do care about you, but not as much as God does. He has provided a way for you through His only Son.

" God created man. [...] men create God. That is the way it is in the world " - Gospel of Phillip

Shouldn't we expect that God is a bit more then "any king"? That God should be more than "blaming the victim" created incapable of not sinning? And even if one could live a life without sin, be tarnished with the blame for a sin six or so thousand years before one was conceived? And why does God react all surprised when his creation does exactly what he was created to do? Do what he was setup to do? Do what any half decent deity should have seen coming a mile away? Why is God bound to such antiquated ideas of what is needed to pardon those sins? Why does any of his children need salvation for being exactly who they were created to be? Didn't he make the rules? Why is God created in the image of such a flawed man?

 

[dgreen]

Basically, it's like this, God is the King of the Universe. Like any King, He has a Kingdom, which is the entire Universe and Spiritual World. Everything was created by Him and as such, we must all obey HIS Laws. In any Kingdom, if you break the Law, you go to prison. It's the same way with God's Kingdom. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes (sins) against God. God does NOT want to send us there. He loves all of us and wants to spend eternity with us, but His righteous nature demands justice for our crimes against Him. So, in a legal transaction and out of HIs love for us, He sent His only Son to come to this earth, live a perfect life and die and rise again for our sins. This enabled God to extend a pardon to each one of us individually. Those who reject the pardon, have to pay for their own sins by going to hell and those who accept the pardon are free to live with Him eternally in heaven. No one has to go to hell. It's something people choose to do by rejecting their Pardon through Faith in Jesus Christ, believing that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice to God for our sins. Place your faith in Christ. Read this first post. Yes I do care about you, but not as much as God does. He has provided a way for you through His only Son.

" God created man. [...] men create God. That is the way it is in the world " - Gospel of Phillip

Shouldn't we expect that God is a bit more then "any king"? That God should be more than "blaming the victim" created incapable of not sinning? And even if one could live a life without sin, be tarnished with the blame for a sin six or so thousand years before one was conceived? And why does God react all surprised when his creation does exactly what he was created to do? Do what he was setup to do? Do what any half decent deity should have seen coming a mile away? Why is God bound to such antiquated ideas of what is needed to pardon those sins? Why does any of his children need salvation for being exactly who they were created to be? Didn't he make the rules? Why is God created in the image of such a flawed man?

I can be a pretty orthodox guy, but I've never bought into the idea of this legal transaction. Saying "This enabled God to..." weirdly puts God in a position where he is somehow beholden to some law higher than himself. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[dkp993]

Furthermore...I believe religion was created by humans for 2 reasons.
1) To help push a stronger moral life. The threat of a bad afterlife can be motivating
2) Because we as humans can't accept that this life is all we get. There has to be something more. We can't just die right? So an afterlife was created to alleviate those fears in many.

I don't believe it...at all...I believe when we die--we die. Poof. All over in an instant. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure we don't actually know when we die. We know we are dying sure, but when we actually die? Yeah..We're dead. So we won't have a moment where we go "gee, I'm dead." It's a scary thought at times, and also not scary at all. but humans needed something....and poof!! Religion came to be.

This doesn't explain, Creation of all things from nothing, The Bible prophecies written hundreds of years before the birth of Christ regarding His place of birth, life, manner of death, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, ect. Also, it doesn't explain the changed lives by Faith in Christ, NDE's. I personally know many people who have had CLEAR out of body experiences. Two of which had both died and were were brought by by the Hospital. Both said that it was as real, or more real than being inside of their body. They felt, tasted, smelled, felt the air in their face, heard, ect. You need to reconsider your position because forever is a VERY long time.

The creation thingy is a solid one. I can't explain that. But I don't automatically assume that because I can't explain it, that it's some sort of God. Nope. The bible was written by men....There have been countless de-bunkings of written accounts of the past, simply because of writer bias. I have very little doubt this is true with the Bible. In fact, if you push me...I MIGHT give way as far a the existence of God(creation again) but religion is all 100% garbage. In my opinion of course. As far as the out of body experiences. That's just hallucinations brought on by two things. 1) the reduced oxygen going to the brain and 2) the brain knowing or believing the body was dying and it releasing hormones, endorphins, dopamine, or whatever to make that experience less traumatic. Every living thing dies...And always has. To think we haven't developed some sort of evolutionary response to that is not what I believe. As far as forever being a long time...I agree..but the thing is I will be dead so won't know it is taking place. No knowledge of that at all.

The creation thing leads me to the enviable question of, well “who created God”? The response I’ve always received was he’s eternal so no one. Which again is interesting as the belief that God could just exist is fully acceptable, but that same line of thinking about the universe somehow isn’t. Feels very convenient for my taste.

 

[bigbottom]

Furthermore...I believe religion was created by humans for 2 reasons.
1) To help push a stronger moral life. The threat of a bad afterlife can be motivating
2) Because we as humans can't accept that this life is all we get. There has to be something more. We can't just die right? So an afterlife was created to alleviate those fears in many.

I don't believe it...at all...I believe when we die--we die. Poof. All over in an instant. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure we don't actually know when we die. We know we are dying sure, but when we actually die? Yeah..We're dead. So we won't have a moment where we go "gee, I'm dead." It's a scary thought at times, and also not scary at all. but humans needed something....and poof!! Religion came to be.

This doesn't explain, Creation of all things from nothing, The Bible prophecies written hundreds of years before the birth of Christ regarding His place of birth, life, manner of death, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, ect. Also, it doesn't explain the changed lives by Faith in Christ, NDE's. I personally know many people who have had CLEAR out of body experiences. Two of which had both died and were were brought by by the Hospital. Both said that it was as real, or more real than being inside of their body. They felt, tasted, smelled, felt the air in their face, heard, ect. You need to reconsider your position because forever is a VERY long time.

The creation thingy is a solid one. I can't explain that. But I don't automatically assume that because I can't explain it, that it's some sort of God. Nope. The bible was written by men....There have been countless de-bunkings of written accounts of the past, simply because of writer bias. I have very little doubt this is true with the Bible. In fact, if you push me...I MIGHT give way as far a the existence of God(creation again) but religion is all 100% garbage. In my opinion of course. As far as the out of body experiences. That's just hallucinations brought on by two things. 1) the reduced oxygen going to the brain and 2) the brain knowing or believing the body was dying and it releasing hormones, endorphins, dopamine, or whatever to make that experience less traumatic. Every living thing dies...And always has. To think we haven't developed some sort of evolutionary response to that is not what I believe. As far as forever being a long time...I agree..but the thing is I will be dead so won't know it is taking place. No knowledge of that at all.

The creation thing leads me to the enviable question of, well “who created God”? The response I’ve always received was he’s eternal so no one. Which again is interesting as the belief that God could just exist is fully acceptable, but that same line of thinking about the universe somehow isn’t. Feels very convenient for my taste.

Can you imagine the universe existing eternally into the future? I certainly can. In fact, that seems more acceptable to my brain than the universe one day winking out of existence. But if we can accept the universe existing eternally into the future, why then can’t we accept the universe existing eternally into the past?

 

[dkp993]

Furthermore...I believe religion was created by humans for 2 reasons.
1) To help push a stronger moral life. The threat of a bad afterlife can be motivating
2) Because we as humans can't accept that this life is all we get. There has to be something more. We can't just die right? So an afterlife was created to alleviate those fears in many.

I don't believe it...at all...I believe when we die--we die. Poof. All over in an instant. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure we don't actually know when we die. We know we are dying sure, but when we actually die? Yeah..We're dead. So we won't have a moment where we go "gee, I'm dead." It's a scary thought at times, and also not scary at all. but humans needed something....and poof!! Religion came to be.

This doesn't explain, Creation of all things from nothing, The Bible prophecies written hundreds of years before the birth of Christ regarding His place of birth, life, manner of death, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, ect. Also, it doesn't explain the changed lives by Faith in Christ, NDE's. I personally know many people who have had CLEAR out of body experiences. Two of which had both died and were were brought by by the Hospital. Both said that it was as real, or more real than being inside of their body. They felt, tasted, smelled, felt the air in their face, heard, ect. You need to reconsider your position because forever is a VERY long time.

The creation thingy is a solid one. I can't explain that. But I don't automatically assume that because I can't explain it, that it's some sort of God. Nope. The bible was written by men....There have been countless de-bunkings of written accounts of the past, simply because of writer bias. I have very little doubt this is true with the Bible. In fact, if you push me...I MIGHT give way as far a the existence of God(creation again) but religion is all 100% garbage. In my opinion of course. As far as the out of body experiences. That's just hallucinations brought on by two things. 1) the reduced oxygen going to the brain and 2) the brain knowing or believing the body was dying and it releasing hormones, endorphins, dopamine, or whatever to make that experience less traumatic. Every living thing dies...And always has. To think we haven't developed some sort of evolutionary response to that is not what I believe. As far as forever being a long time...I agree..but the thing is I will be dead so won't know it is taking place. No knowledge of that at all.

The creation thing leads me to the enviable question of, well “who created God”? The response I’ve always received was he’s eternal so no one. Which again is interesting as the belief that God could just exist is fully acceptable, but that same line of thinking about the universe somehow isn’t. Feels very convenient for my taste.

Can you imagine the universe existing eternally into the future? I certainly can. In fact, that seems more acceptable to my brain than the universe one day winking out of existence. But if we can accept the universe existing eternally into the future, why then can’t we accept the universe existing eternally into the past?

Theoretically, I can. And that’s my point. I’m not making an argument that the universe can be eternal, but God can’t. But those that argue for God are making that argument. That God can be eternal but the universe can’t , it had to be created. As I said that’s quite convenient to me.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Bears go to heaven?

Only Black Bears. Because they're Best.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Bears go to heaven?

Only Black Bears. Because they're Best.

I can deal with that. I just don't want to run into Ditka.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I can be a pretty orthodox guy, but I've never bought into the idea of this legal transaction. Saying "This enabled God to..." weirdly puts God in a position where he is somehow beholden to some law higher than himself. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not all that orthodox but I am believer, just not a believer in the God so bound. In that post there was also the idea that Jesus was without sin. Within the Gospels there are several stores where Jesus and/or the disciples most certainly "sinned" according to letter of the law. While I think of course it is a secondary point of the New Testament, I think a major common theme is that has never been about the "letter of the law". That seems completely inconsistent to me that God was bound to requiring a blood sacrifice before sins could be forgiven, but possibly moving from the letter of the law to the spirit of the law is something humanity needed to grow up just as much as teens do.

By the way your reply also reminds me of Einstein's one question for God - Did he have a choice? (This is about creating a functioning universe. Could the constants have been different?)

 

[TennesseeJed]

Why is God bound to such antiquated ideas of what is needed to pardon those sins?

The answer to this is rather straight forward, I think.

The concept of "god" was created in antiquity - as such the "rules" were created in antiquity, and nobody could have conceived of a different world so distant into the future that it would ever be so materially different than their current state.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Maybe just maybe, God simply will show his children, all of them grace.

 

[dgreen]

I can be a pretty orthodox guy, but I've never bought into the idea of this legal transaction. Saying "This enabled God to..." weirdly puts God in a position where he is somehow beholden to some law higher than himself. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not all that orthodox but I am believer, just not a believer in the God so bound. In that post there was also the idea that Jesus was without sin. Within the Gospels there are several stores where Jesus and/or the disciples most certainly "sinned" according to letter of the law. While I think of course it is a secondary point of the New Testament, I think a major common theme is that has never been about the "letter of the law". That seems completely inconsistent to me that God was bound to requiring a blood sacrifice before sins could be forgiven, but possibly moving from the letter of the law to the spirit of the law is something humanity needed to grow up just as much as teens do.

By the way your reply also reminds me of Einstein's one question for God - Did he have a choice? (This is about creating a functioning universe. Could the constants have been different?)

Interesting. I'd love to know what your interpreting as Jesus sinning. I can think of some potential examples, but I don't want to respond to some argument you aren't making.

 

[dgreen]

Maybe just maybe, God simply will show his children, all of them grace.

I'm not a universalist, but the more I think about who I think God is, the more I move in that direction. On some level, I'd like it to be true.

"Some Christians are more offended by the idea of everyone going to heaven than by the idea of everyone going to hell." I'd like to not be offended by the idea of God be gracious to everyone.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I can be a pretty orthodox guy, but I've never bought into the idea of this legal transaction. Saying "This enabled God to..." weirdly puts God in a position where he is somehow beholden to some law higher than himself. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not all that orthodox but I am believer, just not a believer in the God so bound. In that post there was also the idea that Jesus was without sin. Within the Gospels there are several stores where Jesus and/or the disciples most certainly "sinned" according to letter of the law. While I think of course it is a secondary point of the New Testament, I think a major common theme is that has never been about the "letter of the law". That seems completely inconsistent to me that God was bound to requiring a blood sacrifice before sins could be forgiven, but possibly moving from the letter of the law to the spirit of the law is something humanity needed to grow up just as much as teens do.

By the way your reply also reminds me of Einstein's one question for God - Did he have a choice? (This is about creating a functioning universe. Could the constants have been different?)

Interesting. I'd love to know what your interpreting as Jesus sinning. I can think of some potential examples, but I don't want to respond to some argument you aren't making.

Things like Matthew 12 "Working on the Sabbath", Mark 7"Unclean foods". Things that would have been commonly understood as being against God's Law in the context of those times by God's people. I'm with Jesus here, but if I was a first century Jew I'd need to protest.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

"Some Christians are more offended by the idea of everyone going to heaven than by the idea of everyone going to hell." I'd like to not be offended by the idea of God be gracious to everyone.

"God would rather die than keep account of our sins." (Or something close to this by someone I forget.)

ETA: I'm old. There used to be hymnals at the back of the pews. And in the front of the hymnals were the creeds. I'm not going to pretend to grasp the Athanasian Creed and how it explains the trinity relationship, but I spent many a Sunday trying.

 

[dgreen]

I can be a pretty orthodox guy, but I've never bought into the idea of this legal transaction. Saying "This enabled God to..." weirdly puts God in a position where he is somehow beholden to some law higher than himself. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not all that orthodox but I am believer, just not a believer in the God so bound. In that post there was also the idea that Jesus was without sin. Within the Gospels there are several stores where Jesus and/or the disciples most certainly "sinned" according to letter of the law. While I think of course it is a secondary point of the New Testament, I think a major common theme is that has never been about the "letter of the law". That seems completely inconsistent to me that God was bound to requiring a blood sacrifice before sins could be forgiven, but possibly moving from the letter of the law to the spirit of the law is something humanity needed to grow up just as much as teens do.

By the way your reply also reminds me of Einstein's one question for God - Did he have a choice? (This is about creating a functioning universe. Could the constants have been different?)

Interesting. I'd love to know what your interpreting as Jesus sinning. I can think of some potential examples, but I don't want to respond to some argument you aren't making.

Things like Matthew 12 "Working on the Sabbath", Mark 7"Unclean foods". Things that would have been commonly understood as being against God's Law in the context of those times by God's people. I'm with Jesus here, but if I was a first century Jew I'd need to protest.

Got it. Yeah, those are examples I assumed you meant. To them, a violation of Oral Torah would be a "sin".

 

[Paddington]

He literally posts this on dozens if not 100's of forums. Doesn't make for good conversation.

Yea I guess that's true. But I don't know a lot of real Christians just a bunch of the Sunday morning types. So my questions were something I was interested in. Especially the one about the gay folks. I mean how could a child molester go to heaven ? But two loving God fearing people who had led extremely good lives not just because they are gay.

Also a little interested in the hypocritical aspect of someone who is really sick suddenly getting religion.

The bible is very ambiguous about this. In one passage it says 'man will not lie with man', but it another passage Jesus says to Lucifer 'get thee behind me'.

So who knows?

Why do you speak blasphemy against the Lord Jesus Christ? You need to repent of this evil and turn to Jesus for Salvation, believe that He died and rose again for your sins.

There's a lot more to life than making sure you have adequate fire insurance.

I'm not trying to be mean here. I'm a believer. It's not a once a week duty thing for me; Jesus permeates every aspect of my life from the moment I wake up (usually too early), influences how I live my life, and changes me - changed me, is changing me - irrevocably. A faith that doesn't change you doesn't save you.

But let's be real clear here: you are way out of line telling people they need to repent.

I need a savior. You need Jesus. We all do. Yes and amen that true repentance means turning away from that which harms us and harms those around us. But the whole point of walking with Jesus is NOT so you can turn around and start pointing out other people's shortcomings. Because guess what genius, we have the Holy Spirit.

We know from Ecclesiastes 3 and Romans 1 that God already put within every person the longing for meaning, and that our own conscience convicts us of our shortcomings. They already know, that's universal, no one needs your lame attempts. When you become a believer, the Spirit convicts you of sin. The same power that raised Christ from the dead dwells within each believer. One aspect of the indwelling Holy Spirit is He brings us into alignment with His will (through reading the Word, through hearing preaching, through worship.)

But before that life changing repentance happens, you are dead in sin. Like seriously, have you ever read Romans? Would you walk up to a dead pigeon and ask it to move? When you're dead you don't hear anything. Are you sure you're a Christian....I mean, because that's pretty foundational, if you don't get that, I'm not sure you understand the gospel.

You won't find a single instance of Jesus condemning sinners who came to him. But you know what really made his blood boil? You remember what filled him with righteous indignation, got him so fired up he flipped over tables, drove them out of the temple with a whip (which he took the time to fasten himself whilst getting that anger worked up)? Religious hypocrites - the Pharisees. The people who thought they were better than everyone else. The people who knew every aspect of the law and lived holier than thou and wagged their fingers at lesser men. The religious people of his day - that is who Jesus spoke "woe unto you" toward. Not people who were just trying to live their life.

Jesus did often say at the conclusion of healing someone...or after interacting with them (the woman at the well, the woman caught in the very act of adultery)...to "go and sin no more." But that's after finding out where they were at....after determining what they needed...after healing them, after delivering something tangible. He never starts out with "oh, you're a drunkard? you're a prostitute? well you need to repent, so jot that down." He took the time to get to know people. He accepted where they were at in their journey. Can you imagine, instead, a Jesus who walks through the crowds shouting "REPENT!"

Pretty absurd imagery, right? So why do you do that? Why are you so afraid of being vulnerable and getting to know people? Why are you hiding behind your proclamations without admitting you're just as screwed up as the rest of us? You feel me?

My brother in Christ (not an internet euphemism), folks don't need an end of life contingency. They need help right here right now. They need something that is real. They need truth that makes sense of this crazy mixed up thing called life. They're not interested in shoe horning their dysfunction into outdated man-made religious models that have failed society for centuries.

Drive-by postings are nothing more than a clanging cymbal. The sound will fade soon enough but the memory of the annoyance will linger. That's your legacy with this little piece of performance art, bro. If you don't know how to connect with people in a way that is genuine and on their level, have a seat. You're even less effective that white shirt skinny black tie street preachers on a college campus with an electronic bullhorn. Nothing more than annoying sound that will fade as soon as the students walk away (or board members close this awful thread.)

There is real, life changing power in the gospel of Jesus Christ. You treat it like it's some cheap wonder product from a 3am 1990s style infomercial.

The gospel never asks us to clean up ourselves so we can then be considered worthy of going before the Lord. Goodness, do you read your bible? Christianity is the one religion which offers forgiveness and salvation without being dependent on ourselves. No sacrifices, no amount of discipline or self-righteous deeds will achieve anything. That's hot garbage - it's what the Bible calls filthy rags. On your best day all the good you think is within you is equivalent to used toilet paper.

The gospel is where God says "I know you. I get it. There's nothing you can do to make yourself good enough for me. That's why I made a way for you. That's why I sent my Son. You don't have to do all that striving." On the cross, Christ Jesus took upon himself all sin - past, present and future - and paid the price that should have been ours. Then in the resurrection, he conquered death (because sin leads to death); he broke the power of sin and death. He did that. It is finished. In exchange for taking our sins, He gave us the righteousness of Christ. That's the most lopsided trade in history, way worse than Ricky Williams, Herschel Walker or Denny McLain. We give up (repent) our sin. and in exchange can stand before the Father spotless. Makes no sense, but that's the deal.

It's free, you don't have to do anything except believe. It's not even your own faith - he provides that as well. It's more than just mumbling a few words, this ain't Harry Potter.

But it does start with a simple "I'm sorry. I believe you came here, and you made a way for me to have a relationship with the God who created this universe. I want to follow you and live my life for you." If it's real, that little spark can grow into a roaring fire. Religion - which never helped anyone - tells people they have to live their life a certain way, live a restricted life of sacrifice and doing good. Then maybe (but we're never sure), they'll be counted worthy. Christianity starts with acceptance, forgiveness, and assurance. As a believer you cannot help but want to live your life for the God who did all that for you when you were still his enemy.

My advice: engage. Or stay away. But stop annoying us with this b.s. you're slinging. If you are truly interested in pointing people to jesus, start with something that is relatable and genuine and actually makes sense. This entire thread is a nonsensical word salad. Do better.

If you learn nothing else from this diatribe, know this: people don't remember what you said, but they will remember how you made them feel.

People don't follow advice. Like, from their dad, maybe, their best friend or mentor, possibly....but even then, usually not. They often don't remember exactly you said. You know what sticks? The emotion they experienced after being around you. They don't remember what you said or why you said it, but they will always ,100% of the time, recall how they felt after they encountered you. If you have any interest whatsoever at being an effective communicator, focus on how your message is or is not being received. If it's the latter, the listener/reader is not the one who needs to make an adjustment.

Let's worry about saving their soul before we beat them over the head with how they aught to live ok? Salvation is NOT by works of righteousness which WE have done, Jesus saved US. It's by faith in Him and His death, burial and resurrection , believing that He shed His blood as a Sacrifice for our sins. AFTER Salvation, we can worry about how to live for Christ, rewards, ect. You are putting the cart before the horse. The repenting is to turn from their unbelief, reliance of self, anything other than Christ for Salvation and turning to Jesus Christ alone for Salvation.

My post was directed at you and you alone.

Well I think you should start by reading this first post before you make a Judgement about me. Your comments seem judgmental before you know what I am here for. I am here to give the Gospel. If that offends you than that is your problem.

 

[Paddington]

Furthermore...I believe religion was created by humans for 2 reasons.
1) To help push a stronger moral life. The threat of a bad afterlife can be motivating
2) Because we as humans can't accept that this life is all we get. There has to be something more. We can't just die right? So an afterlife was created to alleviate those fears in many.

I don't believe it...at all...I believe when we die--we die. Poof. All over in an instant. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure we don't actually know when we die. We know we are dying sure, but when we actually die? Yeah..We're dead. So we won't have a moment where we go "gee, I'm dead." It's a scary thought at times, and also not scary at all. but humans needed something....and poof!! Religion came to be.

This doesn't explain, Creation of all things from nothing, The Bible prophecies written hundreds of years before the birth of Christ regarding His place of birth, life, manner of death, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, ect. Also, it doesn't explain the changed lives by Faith in Christ, NDE's. I personally know many people who have had CLEAR out of body experiences. Two of which had both died and were were brought by by the Hospital. Both said that it was as real, or more real than being inside of their body. They felt, tasted, smelled, felt the air in their face, heard, ect. You need to reconsider your position because forever is a VERY long time.

The creation thingy is a solid one. I can't explain that. But I don't automatically assume that because I can't explain it, that it's some sort of God. Nope. The bible was written by men....There have been countless de-bunkings of written accounts of the past, simply because of writer bias. I have very little doubt this is true with the Bible. In fact, if you push me...I MIGHT give way as far a the existence of God(creation again) but religion is all 100% garbage. In my opinion of course. As far as the out of body experiences. That's just hallucinations brought on by two things. 1) the reduced oxygen going to the brain and 2) the brain knowing or believing the body was dying and it releasing hormones, endorphins, dopamine, or whatever to make that experience less traumatic. Every living thing dies...And always has. To think we haven't developed some sort of evolutionary response to that is not what I believe. As far as forever being a long time...I agree..but the thing is I will be dead so won't know it is taking place. No knowledge of that at all.

Hallucinations aren't able to describe what is going on in the room when the dead person is flatlined.

 

[Paddington]

I don’t have a problem with people preaching to me, and am frankly a little offended/hurt when people who I think care for me make no effort to proselytize.

But the whole idea of an omnipotent, omniscient being caring one iota about our sinful ways, and sacrificing his son to atone for them makes zero sense.

Clearly (s)he could do something far more direct to get us in line, like maybe part the skies and explain the problem, or Old Testament style punishment.

But with such power, he’d probably care about as much for individual humans as I care about an ant.

Basically, it's like this, God is the King of the Universe. Like any King, He has a Kingdom, which is the entire Universe and Spiritual World. Everything was created by Him and as such, we must all obey HIS Laws. In any Kingdom, if you break the Law, you go to prison. It's the same way with God's Kingdom. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes (sins) against God. God does NOT want to send us there. He loves all of us and wants to spend eternity with us, but His righteous nature demands justice for our crimes against Him. So, in a legal transaction and out of HIs love for us, He sent His only Son to come to this earth, live a perfect life and die and rise again for our sins. This enabled God to extend a pardon to each one of us individually. Those who reject the pardon, have to pay for their own sins by going to hell and those who accept the pardon are free to live with Him eternally in heaven. No one has to go to hell. It's something people choose to do by rejecting their Pardon through Faith in Jesus Christ, believing that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice to God for our sins. Place your faith in Christ. Read this first post. Yes I do care about you, but not as much as God does. He has provided a way for you through His only Son.

I understand capitalizing pronouns and other terms denoting G/god, but can the bold just stop? I know this trend started with a former world leader and his tweets but using capitalization incorrectly to merely stress a term just looks so juvenile.

First of all, I think it's petty on your part to be so offended by a bold word. Secondly, I don't know why they are bolded. I didn't do that, but who cares?

 

[Paddington]

Furthermore...I believe religion was created by humans for 2 reasons.
1) To help push a stronger moral life. The threat of a bad afterlife can be motivating
2) Because we as humans can't accept that this life is all we get. There has to be something more. We can't just die right? So an afterlife was created to alleviate those fears in many.

I don't believe it...at all...I believe when we die--we die. Poof. All over in an instant. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure we don't actually know when we die. We know we are dying sure, but when we actually die? Yeah..We're dead. So we won't have a moment where we go "gee, I'm dead." It's a scary thought at times, and also not scary at all. but humans needed something....and poof!! Religion came to be.

This doesn't explain, Creation of all things from nothing, The Bible prophecies written hundreds of years before the birth of Christ regarding His place of birth, life, manner of death, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, ect. Also, it doesn't explain the changed lives by Faith in Christ, NDE's. I personally know many people who have had CLEAR out of body experiences. Two of which had both died and were were brought by by the Hospital. Both said that it was as real, or more real than being inside of their body. They felt, tasted, smelled, felt the air in their face, heard, ect. You need to reconsider your position because forever is a VERY long time.

The creation thingy is a solid one. I can't explain that. But I don't automatically assume that because I can't explain it, that it's some sort of God. Nope. The bible was written by men....There have been countless de-bunkings of written accounts of the past, simply because of writer bias. I have very little doubt this is true with the Bible. In fact, if you push me...I MIGHT give way as far a the existence of God(creation again) but religion is all 100% garbage. In my opinion of course. As far as the out of body experiences. That's just hallucinations brought on by two things. 1) the reduced oxygen going to the brain and 2) the brain knowing or believing the body was dying and it releasing hormones, endorphins, dopamine, or whatever to make that experience less traumatic. Every living thing dies...And always has. To think we haven't developed some sort of evolutionary response to that is not what I believe. As far as forever being a long time...I agree..but the thing is I will be dead so won't know it is taking place. No knowledge of that at all.

The creation thing leads me to the enviable question of, well “who created God”? The response I’ve always received was he’s eternal so no one. Which again is interesting as the belief that God could just exist is fully acceptable, but that same line of thinking about the universe somehow isn’t. Feels very convenient for my taste.

Can you imagine the universe existing eternally into the future? I certainly can. In fact, that seems more acceptable to my brain than the universe one day winking out of existence. But if we can accept the universe existing eternally into the future, why then can’t we accept the universe existing eternally into the past?

It will. God said in the Bible that He will destroy this earth and heaven one day and create a new one.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Furthermore...I believe religion was created by humans for 2 reasons.
1) To help push a stronger moral life. The threat of a bad afterlife can be motivating
2) Because we as humans can't accept that this life is all we get. There has to be something more. We can't just die right? So an afterlife was created to alleviate those fears in many.

I don't believe it...at all...I believe when we die--we die. Poof. All over in an instant. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure we don't actually know when we die. We know we are dying sure, but when we actually die? Yeah..We're dead. So we won't have a moment where we go "gee, I'm dead." It's a scary thought at times, and also not scary at all. but humans needed something....and poof!! Religion came to be.

This doesn't explain, Creation of all things from nothing, The Bible prophecies written hundreds of years before the birth of Christ regarding His place of birth, life, manner of death, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, ect. Also, it doesn't explain the changed lives by Faith in Christ, NDE's. I personally know many people who have had CLEAR out of body experiences. Two of which had both died and were were brought by by the Hospital. Both said that it was as real, or more real than being inside of their body. They felt, tasted, smelled, felt the air in their face, heard, ect. You need to reconsider your position because forever is a VERY long time.

The creation thingy is a solid one. I can't explain that. But I don't automatically assume that because I can't explain it, that it's some sort of God. Nope. The bible was written by men....There have been countless de-bunkings of written accounts of the past, simply because of writer bias. I have very little doubt this is true with the Bible. In fact, if you push me...I MIGHT give way as far a the existence of God(creation again) but religion is all 100% garbage. In my opinion of course. As far as the out of body experiences. That's just hallucinations brought on by two things. 1) the reduced oxygen going to the brain and 2) the brain knowing or believing the body was dying and it releasing hormones, endorphins, dopamine, or whatever to make that experience less traumatic. Every living thing dies...And always has. To think we haven't developed some sort of evolutionary response to that is not what I believe. As far as forever being a long time...I agree..but the thing is I will be dead so won't know it is taking place. No knowledge of that at all.

The creation thing leads me to the enviable question of, well “who created God”? The response I’ve always received was he’s eternal so no one. Which again is interesting as the belief that God could just exist is fully acceptable, but that same line of thinking about the universe somehow isn’t. Feels very convenient for my taste.

Can you imagine the universe existing eternally into the future? I certainly can. In fact, that seems more acceptable to my brain than the universe one day winking out of existence. But if we can accept the universe existing eternally into the future, why then can’t we accept the universe existing eternally into the past?

It will. God said in the Bible that He will destroy this earth and heaven one day and create a new one.

Just curious how that's working out for ya so far.

How many people would you estimate have become Jesus followers due to your frequent posts here over the years?

A Tree and Its Fruit

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

 

[3C's]

Furthermore...I believe religion was created by humans for 2 reasons.
1) To help push a stronger moral life. The threat of a bad afterlife can be motivating
2) Because we as humans can't accept that this life is all we get. There has to be something more. We can't just die right? So an afterlife was created to alleviate those fears in many.

I don't believe it...at all...I believe when we die--we die. Poof. All over in an instant. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure we don't actually know when we die. We know we are dying sure, but when we actually die? Yeah..We're dead. So we won't have a moment where we go "gee, I'm dead." It's a scary thought at times, and also not scary at all. but humans needed something....and poof!! Religion came to be.

This doesn't explain, Creation of all things from nothing, The Bible prophecies written hundreds of years before the birth of Christ regarding His place of birth, life, manner of death, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, ect. Also, it doesn't explain the changed lives by Faith in Christ, NDE's. I personally know many people who have had CLEAR out of body experiences. Two of which had both died and were were brought by by the Hospital. Both said that it was as real, or more real than being inside of their body. They felt, tasted, smelled, felt the air in their face, heard, ect. You need to reconsider your position because forever is a VERY long time.

The creation thingy is a solid one. I can't explain that. But I don't automatically assume that because I can't explain it, that it's some sort of God. Nope. The bible was written by men....There have been countless de-bunkings of written accounts of the past, simply because of writer bias. I have very little doubt this is true with the Bible. In fact, if you push me...I MIGHT give way as far a the existence of God(creation again) but religion is all 100% garbage. In my opinion of course. As far as the out of body experiences. That's just hallucinations brought on by two things. 1) the reduced oxygen going to the brain and 2) the brain knowing or believing the body was dying and it releasing hormones, endorphins, dopamine, or whatever to make that experience less traumatic. Every living thing dies...And always has. To think we haven't developed some sort of evolutionary response to that is not what I believe. As far as forever being a long time...I agree..but the thing is I will be dead so won't know it is taking place. No knowledge of that at all.

The creation thing leads me to the enviable question of, well “who created God”? The response I’ve always received was he’s eternal so no one. Which again is interesting as the belief that God could just exist is fully acceptable, but that same line of thinking about the universe somehow isn’t. Feels very convenient for my taste.

Can you imagine the universe existing eternally into the future? I certainly can. In fact, that seems more acceptable to my brain than the universe one day winking out of existence. But if we can accept the universe existing eternally into the future, why then can’t we accept the universe existing eternally into the past?

It will. God said in the Bible that He will destroy this earth and heaven one day and create a new one.

Seems petty. Like an angry child throwing his toy when he doesn't get his way.

 

[TennesseeJed]

Furthermore...I believe religion was created by humans for 2 reasons.
1) To help push a stronger moral life. The threat of a bad afterlife can be motivating
2) Because we as humans can't accept that this life is all we get. There has to be something more. We can't just die right? So an afterlife was created to alleviate those fears in many.

I don't believe it...at all...I believe when we die--we die. Poof. All over in an instant. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure we don't actually know when we die. We know we are dying sure, but when we actually die? Yeah..We're dead. So we won't have a moment where we go "gee, I'm dead." It's a scary thought at times, and also not scary at all. but humans needed something....and poof!! Religion came to be.

This doesn't explain, Creation of all things from nothing, The Bible prophecies written hundreds of years before the birth of Christ regarding His place of birth, life, manner of death, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, ect. Also, it doesn't explain the changed lives by Faith in Christ, NDE's. I personally know many people who have had CLEAR out of body experiences. Two of which had both died and were were brought by by the Hospital. Both said that it was as real, or more real than being inside of their body. They felt, tasted, smelled, felt the air in their face, heard, ect. You need to reconsider your position because forever is a VERY long time.

The creation thingy is a solid one. I can't explain that. But I don't automatically assume that because I can't explain it, that it's some sort of God. Nope. The bible was written by men....There have been countless de-bunkings of written accounts of the past, simply because of writer bias. I have very little doubt this is true with the Bible. In fact, if you push me...I MIGHT give way as far a the existence of God(creation again) but religion is all 100% garbage. In my opinion of course. As far as the out of body experiences. That's just hallucinations brought on by two things. 1) the reduced oxygen going to the brain and 2) the brain knowing or believing the body was dying and it releasing hormones, endorphins, dopamine, or whatever to make that experience less traumatic. Every living thing dies...And always has. To think we haven't developed some sort of evolutionary response to that is not what I believe. As far as forever being a long time...I agree..but the thing is I will be dead so won't know it is taking place. No knowledge of that at all.

The creation thing leads me to the enviable question of, well “who created God”? The response I’ve always received was he’s eternal so no one. Which again is interesting as the belief that God could just exist is fully acceptable, but that same line of thinking about the universe somehow isn’t. Feels very convenient for my taste.

Can you imagine the universe existing eternally into the future? I certainly can. In fact, that seems more acceptable to my brain than the universe one day winking out of existence. But if we can accept the universe existing eternally into the future, why then can’t we accept the universe existing eternally into the past?

It will. God said in the Bible that He will destroy this earth and heaven one day and create a new one.

To be fair - the Bible is not "God's word" but is rather a collection of stories passed down and curated by man. It is no more trustworthy than man himself - even less so when you factor in the biases and incentives of men who were responsible for creating the books, the translations, and the presentation.



But as to the nature of the Universe it is possible to both imagine an endless cycle of expansion and contraction that goes on for eternity - where the energy of the universe is neither created nor destroyed; and, also a Universe that can be snapped into existence, and snapped out of existence.


But it seems contrary to the notion of an all-powerful being, who demands to be worshipped and glorified that such a being would create a chaotic universe that is in a perpetual state of change - whilst placing humans, from whom he expects worship and adulation, on such a small insignificant rocky orb, in a rather isolated corner of said chaotic Universe.

At best, its more likely that some being set in motion the constructs of the universe, and what is playing out, is more or less a science experiment.

 

[Zow]

I don’t have a problem with people preaching to me, and am frankly a little offended/hurt when people who I think care for me make no effort to proselytize.

But the whole idea of an omnipotent, omniscient being caring one iota about our sinful ways, and sacrificing his son to atone for them makes zero sense.

Clearly (s)he could do something far more direct to get us in line, like maybe part the skies and explain the problem, or Old Testament style punishment.

But with such power, he’d probably care about as much for individual humans as I care about an ant.

Basically, it's like this, God is the King of the Universe. Like any King, He has a Kingdom, which is the entire Universe and Spiritual World. Everything was created by Him and as such, we must all obey HIS Laws. In any Kingdom, if you break the Law, you go to prison. It's the same way with God's Kingdom. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes (sins) against God. God does NOT want to send us there. He loves all of us and wants to spend eternity with us, but His righteous nature demands justice for our crimes against Him. So, in a legal transaction and out of HIs love for us, He sent His only Son to come to this earth, live a perfect life and die and rise again for our sins. This enabled God to extend a pardon to each one of us individually. Those who reject the pardon, have to pay for their own sins by going to hell and those who accept the pardon are free to live with Him eternally in heaven. No one has to go to hell. It's something people choose to do by rejecting their Pardon through Faith in Jesus Christ, believing that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice to God for our sins. Place your faith in Christ. Read this first post. Yes I do care about you, but not as much as God does. He has provided a way for you through His only Son.

I understand capitalizing pronouns and other terms denoting G/god, but can the bold just stop? I know this trend started with a former world leader and his tweets but using capitalization incorrectly to merely stress a term just looks so juvenile.

First of all, I think it's petty on your part to be so offended by a bold word. Secondly, I don't know why they are bolded. I didn't do that, but who cares?

I bolded them to demonstrate the words I was referring to that you incorrectly capitalized. And you're correct, it's a relatively small issue.

But here's the context: you show up occasionally on a board full of strangers and take it upon yourself to tell everybody that there's only one way to get to heaven and that it's your way. So, speaking of bold, this is a pretty bold move on your part to do so, especially on this particular board where despite our sometimes juvenile and still threads overall there's some really learned and philosophically diverse people on this board. As such, when a poster goes so far as to say there's only one way to do something in an unwavering manner without any room for seeing differing perspectives, there's going to be some pushback.

Now, why did I choose to criticize something as trivial as intentional grammar errors as opposed to challenging your dogmatic interpretation of scripture? Well, I respect the owner of this website (who monitors and participates in the forum frequently) and my understanding is that he probably prefers that we avoid major religious debates.* So, out of respect for him, I choose not to engage but, instead, to focus - mostly in jest - on a relatively trivial but nonetheless pet peeve of mine where this new trend of intentionally but errantly capitalizing words because the trend makes the author look unschooled and, therefore, I find it hard to take the message seriously.

*To be clear, I'm not aware of Joe ever specifically saying don't. So, I could be wrong in my assumption as it is just an assumption.

 

[dgreen]

To be fair - the Bible is not "God's word" but is rather a collection of stories passed down and curated by man.

Can it be both? I mean, if you don't believe God exists, then your obvious answer is no and a discussion of whether or not it is "God's word" is pointless. But, if we assume God's existence, maybe it can be both God's word (whatever that means) and a human enterprise.

 

[Zow]

Seems petty. Like an angry child throwing his toy when he doesn't get his way.

I mean, have you read the Old Testament?

 

[Zow]

To be fair - the Bible is not "God's word" but is rather a collection of stories passed down and curated by man.

Can it be both? I mean, if you don't believe God exists, then your obvious answer is no and a discussion of whether or not it is "God's word" is pointless. But, if we assume God's existence, maybe it can be both God's word (whatever that means) and a human enterprise.

Yeah there's definitely some oral tradition involved with many of the books in the Bible but what you're saying is plausible given that the manuscripts found in Qumran did date back to the time period where Jesus (assuming he existed) would have been around. So, I suppose in theory, several books in the Bible - especially the Gospel of Mark believed to be written around 60 C.E. (with Jesus most likely born around 4 BCE and having died around 26 CE) - could have been written contemporaneously enough to Jesus's preaching that "God's word" would have been captured.

There's also the theory that God spoke through the biblical writers (divine inspiration) which created this blend - but I personally find that theory less than convincing.

 

[dgreen]

To be fair - the Bible is not "God's word" but is rather a collection of stories passed down and curated by man.

Can it be both? I mean, if you don't believe God exists, then your obvious answer is no and a discussion of whether or not it is "God's word" is pointless. But, if we assume God's existence, maybe it can be both God's word (whatever that means) and a human enterprise.

Yeah there's definitely some oral tradition involved with many of the books in the Bible but what you're saying is plausible given that the manuscripts found in Qumran did date back to the time period where Jesus (assuming he existed) would have been around. So, I suppose in theory, several books in the Bible - especially the Gospel of Mark believed to be written around 60 C.E. (with Jesus most likely born around 4 BCE and having died around 26 CE) - could have been written contemporaneously enough to Jesus's preaching that "God's word" would have been captured.

There's also the theory that God spoke through the biblical writers (divine inspiration) which created this blend - but I personally find that theory less than convincing.

Yeah, and I'm even thinking more along the lines that for something to be "God's word" it doesn't have to be verbatim. Saying "God's word" or that it is "inspired by God" or "God-breathed" puts certain images in our head if we think of those too literally. But, I don't know that the intent of saying the texts are "God's word" should lead us to a literalistic image in our head where God said, "Ok, Moses, grab your laptop and start typing. 'In the beginning...'". There are many theories on how to account for the human involvement in a supposedly divinely inspired text.

This is probably a time when capitalization could help: God's Word instead of God's word!

 

[TennesseeJed]

To be fair - the Bible is not "God's word" but is rather a collection of stories passed down and curated by man.

Can it be both? I mean, if you don't believe God exists, then your obvious answer is no and a discussion of whether or not it is "God's word" is pointless. But, if we assume God's existence, maybe it can be both God's word (whatever that means) and a human enterprise.

Not really.

That is a fundamental difference in the Quran and the Bible. The Bible never actually purports to be God's word - whereas the Quran makes that claim. The Bible is a series of stories that were passed down by generation - none of which were first hand accounts of God speaking to humanity - these are all second-hand accounts.

Then, you get into the issue of men deciding which of these stories were worthy of putting together into a single book - which we now recognize as the "Bible". That was not a divine choice - but rather men deciding on their own how to tell this story.

And, you can also note the distinctions between the new and old testaments - both in style, but also in terms of how God is described - and that leans more into the changing times, rather than changes in an eternal being - the "vengeful" god of the old testament becomes the more loving forgiving type in the New Testament - presumably because that message resonated with people after generations grew tired of the vengeful god.



I believe there is a God - some kind of supreme being - who put the Universe in motion - which has led us to this point. I do not believe in the Bible - not even a little. I don't have any qualms about people not understanding the distinction I draw between those two thoughts.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I believe there is a God - some kind of supreme being - who put the Universe in motion - which has led us to this point. I do not believe in the Bible - not even a little.

I guess I want to clarify the last part. When you say you don't believe in the bible, what does that mean? To take it to a silly extreme surely there is enough evidence for you to believe in the existence of bibles. Much more than a supreme being, I'm pretty confident that you don't mean this. But I'm not certain that you don't mean the other silly extreme that God penned every word of it, at least in the original scripts. But in between there seems to be lots of room.

To me the bible is the telling of the stories of how a people who at the end of the last ice age were among the last out of the "God will provide" fertile "Garden of Eden" valleys and into the inhospitable "cities". The tale of how "God's people" tried to differentiate themselves from the people around them to live more godly lives. Many of their choices might have been superior moral choice in context of the times but are horrific by our standards. There are stories of their history. Sometimes outlandishly exaggerated like Exodus, but often told with brutal, unflattering honestly like Judges. Then there is the story of hope, the hope to escape from being a conquered people.

Then you turn the page and the long awaited messiah seems to appear. After a few years of campaigning in and around Nazareth, this chosen guy triumphantly enters Jerusalem with Ronan authorities at high alert. The promised moment has come and, the king of the Jews is crucified like any other dime a dozen rebel.

Then there are the stories of the foundational years of early Jesus movement as it grows into what becomes Christianity. As Saul decides if "you can't beat them, then lead them" into a new religion. One that is based on the underlying fundamentals of "do unto others" of the Jewish faith, but without all of the rules that more thwarted than encourage one from following the commandment "love thy neighbor".

What's not to believe in this? Oh, sure there is a lot of crazy supernatural stuff like blowing life into bones there for the people looking for "signs" , which was pretty much everyone in the superstitious times of these stories. But with a few exceptions like Jesus rising from the dead, I don't think believing in much of this is necessary to believe in the bible. And even Jesus rising from the dead should be totally believable if you limit the meaning to the movement and not necessarily the corpse.

So that's my cafeteria Christian take on why the bible is completely believable where it matters with some literary flare and artistic license thrown in. Isn't this believable? Maybe totally wrong, but at least believable?

 

[dgreen]

I believe there is a God - some kind of supreme being - who put the Universe in motion - which has led us to this point. I do not believe in the Bible - not even a little.

I guess I want to clarify the last part. When you say you don't believe in the bible, what does that mean? To take it to a silly extreme surely there is enough evidence for you to believe in the existence of bibles. Much more than a supreme being, I'm pretty confident that you don't mean this. But I'm not certain that you don't mean the other silly extreme that God penned every word of it, at least in the original scripts. But in between there seems to be lots of room.

To me the bible is the telling of the stories of how a people who at the end of the last ice age were among the last out of the "God will provide" fertile "Garden of Eden" valleys and into the inhospitable "cities". The tale of how "God's people" tried to differentiate themselves from the people around them to live more godly lives. Many of their choices might have been superior moral choice in context of the times but are horrific by our standards. There are stories of their history. Sometimes outlandishly exaggerated like Exodus, but often told with brutal, unflattering honestly like Judges. Then there is the story of hope, the hope to escape from being a conquered people.

Then you turn the page and the long awaited messiah seems to appear. After a few years of campaigning in and around Nazareth, this chosen guy triumphantly enters Jerusalem with Ronan authorities at high alert. The promised moment has come and, the king of the Jews is crucified like any other dime a dozen rebel.

Then there are the stories of the foundational years of early Jesus movement as it grows into what becomes Christianity. As Saul decides if "you can't beat them, then lead them" into a new religion. One that is based on the underlying fundamentals of "do unto others" of the Jewish faith, but without all of the rules that more thwarted than encourage one from following the commandment "love thy neighbor".

What's not to believe in this? Oh, sure there is a lot of crazy supernatural stuff like blowing life into bones there for the people looking for "signs" , which was pretty much everyone in the superstitious times of these stories. But with a few exceptions like Jesus rising from the dead, I don't think believing in much of this is necessary to believe in the bible. And even Jesus rising from the dead should be totally believable if you limit the meaning to the movement and not necessarily the corpse.

So that's my cafeteria Christian take on why the bible is completely believable where it matters with some literary flare and artistic license thrown in. Isn't this believable? Maybe totally wrong, but at least believable?

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing about what it means to believe in the Bible. My assumption is people tend to mean not believing that certain things actually happened. The "liberal" criticizes the historical and scientific accuracy of the Bible and concludes it's a worthless text. The "conservative" attempts to defend the historical and scientific accuracy with apologetics because they conclude all those things must be true despite what our other evidence indicates. Both are holding the Bible to a standard that it was never intended to satisfy. The Bible isn't trying to answer the questions our culture tends to ask. The "liberal" is misusing a tool and blaming the tool for not working. The "conservative" is trying to convince others that the tool works just fine despite it falling apart as it is being used.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Got Questions

Is the Bible truly God’s Word?​

Our answer to this question will not only determine how we view the Bible and its importance to our lives, but it will also have an eternal impact on us. If the Bible is truly God’s Word, then we should cherish it, study it, obey it, and fully trust it. If the Bible is truly the Word of God, then it is the final authority for all matters of faith, practice, and morality. If the Bible is the Word of God, then to dismiss it is to dismiss God Himself.

The fact that God gave us the Bible is an evidence of His love for us. God communicated to mankind what He is like and how we can have a right relationship with Him. These are things that we could not have known had God not divinely revealed them to us in the Bible. The Bible contains everything mankind needs to know about God in order to have a right relationship with Him.

How can we know that the Bible is the Word of God and not just a good book? What is unique about the Bible that sets it apart from all other books ever written? Is there any evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word? These types of questions must be seriously examined. There can be no doubt that the Bible does claim to be the Word of God. This is seen in Paul’s commendation to Timothy: “From infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15–17).

There are both internal and external evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word.

Internal Evidence that the Bible is God’s Word

Internal evidences are those things within the Bible that testify of its divine origin. One internal evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is its unity. Even though it is really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1,500 years, by more than 40 authors who came from many walks of life, the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. This unity is unique from all other books and is evidence of the divine origin of the words that God moved men to record.

Another internal evidence that indicates the Bible is truly God’s Word is prophecy. The Bible contains hundreds of detailed prophecies relating to the future of various nations, certain cities, and all mankind. Other prophecies concern the coming of the Messiah, the Savior of all who would believe in Him. Unlike the prophecies found in other religious books or those by men such as Nostradamus, biblical prophecies are extremely detailed. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Not only was His lineage foretold and where He would be born, but also how He would die and that He would rise again. There simply is no logical way to explain the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible other than citing divine origin. There is no other religious book with the amount of detailed predictive prophecy the Bible contains.

A third internal evidence of the divine origin of the Bible is its unique authority and power. While this evidence is more subjective than the first two, it is no less a powerful testimony that the Bible is God’s Word. The Bible’s authority is unlike that of any other book ever written. This power is seen in the way countless lives have been supernaturally transformed. Drug addicts have been cured by it, homosexuals set free by it, derelicts and deadbeats transformed by it, hardened criminals reformed by it, sinners rebuked by it, and hate turned to love by it. The Bible does possess a dynamic and transforming power that is only possible because it is truly God’s Word.

External Evidence that the Bible is God’s Word

There are also external evidences that indicate the Bible is truly the Word of God. One is the historicity of the Bible. Because the Bible details historical events, its accuracy is subject to verification like any other historical document. Through archaeological evidence and extra biblical writings, the historical accounts of the Bible proved time and again to be accurate and true. In fact, all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best-documented book from the ancient world. That the Bible accurately records historically verifiable events helps substantiate its claim to be the very Word of God and supports trust concerning other matters the Bible addresses.

Another external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the integrity of its human authors. In studying the lives of the authors of Scripture, we find them to be honest and sincere. The fact that they were willing to die often excruciating deaths for what they believed testifies that these men truly believed God had spoken to them. The men who wrote the New Testament and many hundreds of other believers (1 Corinthians 15:6) knew the truth of their message because they had spent time with Jesus Christ after He had risen from the dead. Seeing the risen Christ had a tremendous impact on them. They went from hiding in fear to being willing to die for the message God had revealed to them. Their lives and deaths testify to the fact that the Bible truly is God’s Word.

Another external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible. The Bible has suffered more vicious attacks and attempts to destroy it than any other book in history. From early Roman Emperors like Diocletian, through communist dictators and on to modern-day atheists, the Bible has withstood a constant onslaught from detractors. Yet it endures and is still today the most widely published book in the world.

Throughout history, skeptics have regarded the Bible as mythological, but archaeology has confirmed it as historical. Opponents have attacked its teaching as primitive and outdated, but its moral and legal concepts have had a positive influence on societies throughout the world. It continues to be attacked by pseudo-science, psychology, and political movements, yet it remains just as true and relevant today as it was when it was first written. This should not surprise us. After all, Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Mark 13:31).

The Bible, unique among books, has transformed countless lives and swayed whole cultures. After looking at the evidence, one can say without a doubt that God has spoken and that, yes, the Bible is truly God’s Word.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Theoretically, I can. And that’s my point. I’m not making an argument that the universe can be eternal, but God can’t. But those that argue for God are making that argument. That God can be eternal but the universe can’t , it had to be created. As I said that’s quite convenient to me.

I'm not satisfied with this logical disconnect either. Usually you'll hear that the Big Bang couldn't have occurred because something cannot come from nothing. Therefore God created the universe. When I ask how God came to be I get, 'Oh, well he's eternal'.

Then there's suffering. Bart Ehrman describes this conundrum pretty well:

"And I came to think that it was perverse of me to be thankful for all the good things I had – as if God had provided them to me – when I knew full well that millions of people were dying from diseases contracted from not having clean water to drink; and from malaria; and from the lack of just the most basic protections against weather; and from starvation; and from natural disasters; and and and. If God is the one to be thanked for my good life, who is to be thanked – or rather blamed – for their suffering? Do I really want to say that it is God who has blessed me? If so, has he decided to curse the others? Or am I simply favored because I’m such a nice guy?"

Religious folks like to talk with certainty about how God works and what he wants from us, but are ultimately forced to answer deeper questions with some variation of 'he works in mysterious ways that us humans simply can't understand'. As the Church Lady says, "Well isn't that convenient."