How To Know If You're The Problem With America... (1 Viewer)

[Dickies]

Also, it took a literal civil war -- with people shooting cannons at each other and burning down cities -- to end slavery.  Then a bunch of constitutional amendments that were enforced by a military occupation of the former confederacy.  When that military occupation went away, the pro-slavery confederates transitioned directly into a system of racial terrorism and segregation that lasted until the 1960s.  So basically the people who were in favor of racial apartheid in the US controlled significant chunks of the country from the 1600s until approximately the Johnson administration.  Not sure I would have nominated "slavery" as an example of a transitory issue that vanished into the ether as a result of people realizing the error of their ways.

Gay marriage is a better example in my opinion. 

 

[The Commish]

These two people will be misinformed in different ways, but I would not value either of their opinions on anything of substance.  Both are the intellectual equivalent of consuming nothing but Skittles and beer and imagining yourself to be well-nourished because you've grown fat.

 

 

[squistion]

 Now pretty sure the PSF brings out the worst in some.  I highly doubt most here would talk the same way face to face to people.

I would certainly hope not. 

 

[AAABatteries]

Oh, and I can't believe we got this far without this...

Just ask my wife - she'll confirm for you that I am the problem.

 

[FairWarning]

Thank you GB.  In my life I've overheard drunkards at a tavern speaking louder than they realize how "blacks" aren't fully human, lazy, stupid and should still be slaves. Every time I see a Confederate flag it's a reminder too.  I don't want any laws forbidding either but society should view them as if they were flying a flag from any other terrorist group.  

I think society does a pretty good job of isolating them and their message.  At least in my travels, I rarely see a confederate flag.  There are always a couple old coots at a legion that still talk that way, but the ignorance just permeates the bar, so no one really associates with them. 

 

[The Commish]

What taverns are you drinking in?  yikes

My wife's cousin's house apparently.

 

[The Commish]

I think society does a pretty good job of isolating them and their message.  At least in my travels, I rarely see a confederate flag.  There are always a couple old coots at a legion that still talk that way, but the ignorance just permeates the bar, so no one really associates with them. 

Don't spend much time in the southeast I take it?

 

[FairWarning]

Don't spend much time in the southeast I take it?

Never been there. It’s a different world though. 

 

[dgreen]

I'm not sure I'm a fan of this list mostly focusing on beliefs/thoughts. Actions/behavior seem to be more problematic to me.

 

[AAABatteries]

I think society does a pretty good job of isolating them and their message.  At least in my travels, I rarely see a confederate flag.  There are always a couple old coots at a legion that still talk that way, but the ignorance just permeates the bar, so no one really associates with them. 

Not to sidetrack the discussion but you only need to drive through rural Southeastern states to see a lot of Confederate flags.  Now the vast, vast majority of these folks aren't to the level of agreeing with slavery but there's still a fondness for the Confederacy in clothing, memorabilia, reenactments, etc. down here.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Totally agree with the premise, Joe. We ARE the problem, but refuse to accept it. Rather than be introspective about how we, as individuals, are making things worse, we defend and excuse our behavior. It's much easier to cast blame on the outside than make changes on the inside. 

The real question is how do we fix it (us). Society needs to begin collective therapy.

 

[FairWarning]

Not to sidetrack the discussion but you only need to drive through rural Southeastern states to see a lot of Confederate flags.  Now the vast, vast majority of these folks aren't to the level of agreeing with slavery but there's still a fondness for the Confederacy in clothing, memorabilia, reenactments, etc. down here.

The people who had them up north was more for southern rock or the southern way of life more than slavery (if that makes sense).  

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Disagree.  The real problem are those that think they are in the middle and that the sides are the problem.

 

[Max Power]

Disagree.  The real problem are those that think they are in the middle and that the sides are the problem.

I'm listening....

 

[The Commish]

Never been there. It’s a different world though. 

You should come down here to my stomping grounds....I can show you some things that would make you wonder if you were really still in the US   

 

[Captain Cranks]

It is only a conservative problem. MSNBC and CNN are neutral sources- they report things I don’t want to hear all the time. (I’m referring to news reporting, not opinion shows.) Whoever watches CNN news can generally be regarded as a well informed person IMO. I believe this is true of Fox News as well. It is NOT true of other conservative news sources however. 

Dooooooooood. You have to adjust for your bias a bit more here. MSNBC and CNN absolutely NOT neutral sources.

 

[crackattack]

Just look how the MSM covered for Jill Biden's taco gaffe. A conservative says what she did and it would be all over the MSM with racism this racism that bigot here bigots there. It's so painfully obvious to most.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I'm listening....

You know the people that claim that they are the real majority (or at least plurality) but it is the sides fault for not coming together to accomplish anything.

You know the people that think both side are indistinguishable.

You know people that want compromise but choose to stay above it all and not get muddied.

You know people that don't care to understand issues to begin with that complain the sides don't try to see the others perspective.

And on and on.

 

[squistion]

Just look how the MSM covered for Jill Biden's taco gaffe. A conservative says what she did and it would be all over the MSM with racism this racism that bigot here bigots there. It's so painfully obvious to most.

Meh. It was a nothingburger. If during the last administration Melania had said something like this, there wouldn't have been much more excitement in the MSM coverage. It was just a poor choice of words and deliberately meant to be a racial slur IMO. 

 

[crackattack]

Meh. It was a nothingburger. If during the last administration Melania had said something like this, there wouldn't have been much more excitement in the MSM coverage. It was just a poor choice of words and deliberately meant to be a racial slur IMO. 

You must've forgot the coverage of that stupid jacket Melania wore. The "I really don't care, do you?". Pretty sure she was called racist for that. You forget that?

 

[2Squirrels1Nut]

I think society does a pretty good job of isolating them and their message.  At least in my travels, I rarely see a confederate flag.  There are always a couple old coots at a legion that still talk that way, but the ignorance just permeates the bar, so no one really associates with them. 

It really depends on where you are at in the country.  

 

[Max Power]

You know the people that claim that they are the real majority (or at least plurality) but it is the sides fault for not coming together to accomplish anything.

You know the people that think both side are indistinguishable.

You know people that want compromise but choose to stay above it all and not get muddied.

You know people that don't care to understand issues to begin with that complain the sides don't try to see the others perspective.

And on and on.

I'm taking this as people who complain about the status quo but don't jump in to politics  to do something about it.

 

[2Squirrels1Nut]

What taverns are you drinking in?  yikes

I quit drinking some years ago but it was happening was in the 1990's. 

There’s still a contingent of people, including the former POTUS, mad as a hornet about taking down statues honoring people in the Confederacy.   We're called "woke" and other derogatory names.  I guess for some people unless you walk in the same shoes you're not capable of understanding the sick feeling you get in your gut. 

I apologize for the partial hijack.  

 

[squistion]

You must've forgot the coverage of that stupid jacket Melania wore. The "I really don't care, do you?". Pretty sure she was called racist for that. You forget that?

No I remember it but I think it expressed indifference rather than racism (what was it she didn't care about? Did she ever say?) In any event the story lasted as long and got about the same amount of coverage as the taco gaffe. Bottom line, no one really cares what the First Lady says, or at least to the point that it will ever influence any votes.l 

 

[dozer]

You must've forgot the coverage of that stupid jacket Melania wore. The "I really don't care, do you?". Pretty sure she was called racist for that. You forget that?

I don’t think she was called a racist for wearing that coat. I think she was just raked over the coals for her lack of awareness.

 

[crackattack]

No I remember it but I think it expressed indifference rather than racism (what was it she didn't care about? Did she ever say?) In any event the story lasted as long and got about the same amount of coverage as the taco gaffe. Bottom line, no one really cares what the First Lady says, or at least to the point that it will ever influence any votes.l 

If you can't see the difference in how both instances were covered, then good luck with that. .

 

[crackattack]

I don’t think she was called a racist for wearing that coat. I think she was just raked over the coals for her lack of awareness.

Again. The difference in how those instances were covered is astonishing.

 

[Ilov80s]

He is the perfect mold of the case in point. But he'll never see it because he believes the MSM like cnn and msnbc are moderate. They're not and almost everyone but Tim knows it. It's outstanding his bootlicking for the MSM.

Even if we all thought MSNBC was a neutral outlet with no political agenda, it's missing out how many online sources exist that are very liberal, especially in people's social media feeds. There are a lot of people who watch 0 news on TV and get all of their news from their social media and they are likely to follow people and sources that fit their POV. 

 

[Amused to Death]

I pay attention to Reuters, AP, and the BBC and I get the daily 1440 email digest. Pretty straight reporting. That's not to say I see or watch other outlets but when I see something that gets my attention, I seek out the reporting of the outlets listed.

Something else I think has contributed to our division is the acceptance of "alternate facts".

 

[BassNBrew]

Don't spend much time in the southeast I take it?

You should come down here to my stomping grounds....I can show you some things that would make you wonder if you were really still in the US   

It really depends on where you are at in the country.  

@The Commish you say that but I don't think it's reality.  I ran into far more racists in the Northeast than I have in the SE.  I think NE racists are just smarter and don't broadcast their racism the way SE racists do.  It's also a function of population demographics.   I don't place much value in Vermont claiming to be most free of racism based on lack of Confederate flags when it has 9000 African American residents.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

"CNN is a neutral news source that well-informed people can rely upon" is like a time capsule from 1996 or something.  Do you mail your DVDs back to Netflix when you're done with them too? 

 

[RCon]

Gay marriage is a better example in my opinion. 

Except this hasn't gone away either.  The official Texas GOP platform still calls same sex marriage an abnormal lifestyle choice.

 

[The Commish]

@The Commish you say that but I don't think it's reality.  I ran into far more racists in the Northeast than I have in the SE.  I think NE racists are just smarter and don't broadcast their racism the way SE racists do.  It's also a function of population demographics.   I don't place much value in Vermont claiming to be most free of racism based on lack of Confederate flags when it has 9000 African American residents.

The most racially charged place I have ever lived is Cincinnati Ohio.  I don't know how to explain it best, but in my experience, the further north I went it was more "patchy" with those patches being really intense (almost an "all or nothing" sort of deal).  Down here, the contrasts aren't as sharp and I think that skews perception.  Maybe the boiling frog analogy is the best way to describe?  Throw a frog into already boiling water and it's obviously going to recognize it (the north) but bring the temp up slowly and over time and he misses it (the south).  

 

[RCon]

Disagree.  The real problem are those that think they are in the middle and that the sides are the problem.

To follow up on this, I definitely agree that there is a problem (not "the" problem, but a problem) that involves people that like to believe they are rationally in the middle and castigate "both sides" without looking any deeper than that.  Sure, sometimes both sides are problematic (especially the fringes).  However, there are times where one side is 100% right and the other side is 100% wrong.  To use an example from this thread, the right side and wrong side of slavery are unequivocal.  To use a more recent example, same sex marriage has a right side and a wrong side.  There are lots of other examples.  People who believe Jan 6 was no big deal aren't "just half of both sides", they are unequivocally wrong.

Folks that stubbornly maintain that "both sides" are always equally bad are a significant problem in this country.

 

[Joe Bryant]

What taverns are you drinking in?  yikes

Agreed. I won't deny it exists as obviously it does. But I've lived my entire 58 years of live in the South and in Texas and spent a decent amount of time in regular working folks taverns and I've never once heard anything remotely close to this. I'd be stunned if I heard something like that. 

But also, let's not derail the thread yet. This can be a good discussion I think.

 

[Ilov80s]

The people who had them up north was more for southern rock or the southern way of life more than slavery (if that makes sense).  

There’s also a lot of Southern migrants here in Michigan. It wasn’t just Black who came up for jobs in the factories. Those Southern migrants brought with them their Southern heritage.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Totally agree with the premise, Joe. We ARE the problem, but refuse to accept it. Rather than be introspective about how we, as individuals, are making things worse, we defend and excuse our behavior. It's much easier to cast blame on the outside than make changes on the inside. 

The real question is how do we fix it (us). Society needs to begin collective therapy.

Agreed. I like to look at things if possible from a solution angle. And how we fix something.

The first step to me seems at least acknowledging this. Obviously, some won't acknowledge their side might have an issue too. But we can't let that discourage us. 

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

I mostly agree. 

The part about only watching or reading media that agrees with you- IMO that’s not a both sides thing. That’s currently only true of conservatives. 

I think you have this backwards (as usual). Most conservatives are bombarded with leftist media and tech and also balance that with some conservative media. I know many on the left quite happy in their leftist echo chamber and refuse to venture out. We see all the time on these boards people saying things like "that's a link to a conservative site, I don't even want to click that" as though exposure to a different pov is something to be avoided at all costs.

 

[Ilov80s]

I’ve heard a lot of really racist messed up stuff at bars in SE Michigan. For those that don’t know, that’s the liberal area of the State. The racism towards Black people was usually more casual but the things said about Muslims and Arabic people has often been truly APPALLING 

 

[Ilov80s]

This is a good time to promote podcasts as an alternative POV to the MSM.  I get my MSM at work and have half a dozen podcasts I'll listen to on my drive home.  Most of them do a much better job at discussing both sides of the issue.  The ones who can do it respectfully tend to resonate with people more.  

Yes you actually get people l taking the time to  dive deep into issues. Even if it is strongly biased (which most are), they actually present a lot more information, research, etc. 

 

[Mister CIA]

I think it misses the point to frame media as bias/unbiased or conservative/liberal.  I think the important distinction to make first is whether your media sources come from those who act in good faith, or those who do not.  Personally I take in more left-leaning media, and I am barely left of the center line, but reading right-leaning from well-intenioned sources always hits me like a breath of fresh air.  

 

[Juxtatarot]

The racism towards Black people was usually more casual but the things said about Muslims and Arabic people has often been truly appealing. 

Appalling  

 

[Ilov80s]

Appalling  

lol oh god autocorrect trying to get me cancelled 

 

[cockroach]

Don't spend much time in the southeast I take it?

Can't go a week in W. Michigan without seeing the ol "Stars and Bars" 

 

[AAABatteries]

lol oh god autocorrect trying to get me cancelled 

Sure guy - autocorrect.     We're watching you now buddy.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

The first statement is 100% true. We had a legitimate coup attempt January 6th. A major part of the GOP is trying to end American Democracy

 

[moleculo]

Can't go a week in W. Michigan without seeing the ol "Stars and Bars" 

That's odd.  I never see the Stars and Bars in South Carolina.  I'm assuming you mean the  Confederate Battle Flag?

 

[Amused to Death]

I'm in NJ and during the last administration I had a few friends post many photos of themselves with the Confederate flag on social media. People who were born and raised here in Central NJ. Not sure what message they were trying to convey.

 

[supermike80]

And I don't mean to single out Tim. I think a lot of us, me included, have the problem. At the very least, I think it's helpful to recognize it's out there.

When you only recognize that the problem exists purely with one side, then nothing that is not making things better.

 

[(HULK)]

It is only a conservative problem. MSNBC and CNN are neutral sources- they report things I don’t want to hear all the time. (I’m referring to news reporting, not opinion shows.) Whoever watches CNN news can generally be regarded as a well informed person IMO. I believe this is true of Fox News as well. It is NOT true of other conservative news sources however. 

I disagree that they're neutral FYI.

I agree whole heartedly that they are less biased than Fox and certainly OAN. But to believe they are without bias is to be incorrect.