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How's your housing market? (1 Viewer)

I occasionally see a tv commercial sponsored by the NAR saying "there's never been a better time to buy a home!" Makes me :goodposting: every time.
Yeah, the NAR is a ####### joke. Unemployment increasing, record inventory, and only a handful of qualified buyers out there; you don't have to have a PHD in economics to figure out how supply and demand is going to work in this situation.
Frankly, if you have cash there are plenty of great investment opportunities in a whole spectrum of different commodities, real estate included. Problem is, very few people have cash with the liquidity freeze. And Im not talking about short term flips, medium to long term deals. California has alot of back inventory, but there are only so many homes in prime locations and they're taking massive hits as well.
 
Since you guys seem to have your finger on the pulse, is the Phoenix market REALLY so deep into the crapper that someone is seriously offering me 17% less than what I paid for my house 10 years ago? Zillow (yeah, I know) had it valued at ~160% above purchase price at its peak, comps were coming in recently at ~80% above.

If it matters, south-central Phoenix (zip 85042), 5br/2ba (originally 4br, previous owners enclosed a patio for a 5th br, call it a "bonus room" if you will), 2000sf, 11000sf lot, dining room, living room, family room (previous owner enclosed a 2car garage, added a carport), cul-de-sac, corner lot, large fenced/walled backyard, new roof, updated kitchen and baths, mountain views, valley views, near downtown, near new shopping, on bus line, new housing growth (was surrounded by orange groves 10yrs ago, now all houses), near South Mountain so there's not a lot of thru traffic, quiet neighborhood, etc.

Yes, I understand all the foreclosures, etc. But seriously, 1995 prices??? :thumbup:

 
Since you guys seem to have your finger on the pulse, is the Phoenix market REALLY so deep into the crapper that someone is seriously offering me 17% less than what I paid for my house 10 years ago? Zillow (yeah, I know) had it valued at ~160% above purchase price at its peak, comps were coming in recently at ~80% above.

If it matters, south-central Phoenix (zip 85042), 5br/2ba (originally 4br, previous owners enclosed a patio for a 5th br, call it a "bonus room" if you will), 2000sf, 11000sf lot, dining room, living room, family room (previous owner enclosed a 2car garage, added a carport), cul-de-sac, corner lot, large fenced/walled backyard, new roof, updated kitchen and baths, mountain views, valley views, near downtown, near new shopping, on bus line, new housing growth (was surrounded by orange groves 10yrs ago, now all houses), near South Mountain so there's not a lot of thru traffic, quiet neighborhood, etc.

Yes, I understand all the foreclosures, etc. But seriously, 1995 prices??? :goodposting:
I'll defer to bagger and LHUCKS on this one. They're the PHX real estate guys.
 
Since you guys seem to have your finger on the pulse, is the Phoenix market REALLY so deep into the crapper that someone is seriously offering me 17% less than what I paid for my house 10 years ago? Zillow (yeah, I know) had it valued at ~160% above purchase price at its peak, comps were coming in recently at ~80% above.

If it matters, south-central Phoenix (zip 85042), 5br/2ba (originally 4br, previous owners enclosed a patio for a 5th br, call it a "bonus room" if you will), 2000sf, 11000sf lot, dining room, living room, family room (previous owner enclosed a 2car garage, added a carport), cul-de-sac, corner lot, large fenced/walled backyard, new roof, updated kitchen and baths, mountain views, valley views, near downtown, near new shopping, on bus line, new housing growth (was surrounded by orange groves 10yrs ago, now all houses), near South Mountain so there's not a lot of thru traffic, quiet neighborhood, etc.

Yes, I understand all the foreclosures, etc. But seriously, 1995 prices??? :thumbup:
I'll defer to bagger and LHUCKS on this one. They're the PHX real estate guys.
Right now, yes you are seeing 1995 prices if you want to sell in many areas of Phoenix. 65% of homes bought right now off resale listings are foreclosures, and closer to 75% if you get into the outlying areas. So any "conventional" sale of a normal home owner to a buyer is dead because you are competing with foreclosures. Many banks have been instructed to take back as much as they can and liquidate to raise capital. This means they are selling homes at a discount of their loan basis pressuring prices down to levels not seen since the 1990s. For your zip code you have probably lost 30% of value in the last year alone, but again that is basing it off of foreclosures.

This is not a normalization of the market, but it is the reality for the rest of 2009 and into 2010. Unfortunately the market can remain irrational longer than some people can stay solvent, only compounding the issue. For Phoenix, from a macro economic point of view we were very strong in 2006 through most of 2008 in terms of job growth, emplyoment rates, interest rates, etc. With employment growth and in migration growth going negative for the next year at least we now have an additional downward pressure on home pricing above and beyond the speculator inventory and sub prime / alternative loan inventory. Inventory is going to be coming on the market due to job loss.

I have no idea what you bought it at or what Zillow says it is worth, but I would imagine given what you said it would sell for right around $200k? If you can sit tight, I would for at least another year to hopefully not compete with foreclosures.

Unfortunately when I was discussing this issue with tGunZ two years ago I stated in my disbelief that if prices fell like gunz was saying, the entire banking system would be on the verge of collapse. Well here we all are, and there is still a process of deleveraging that needs to happen.

 
What you paid for a house in the past is irrelevant. As always, the only thing that matters is what someone else is willing to pay for it.

 
I've mentioned in a few times in other threads over the past month that Temecula CA has bottomed and I am trying to take advantage. Well, here's confirmation:

Lenders have become so overwhelmed by the foreclosure crisis that they are starting to unload properties in bulk to investor groups at steep discounts.

Investors then flip the properties for a profit without necessarily improving the home.

For example, a unit of Citigroup, the troubled financial giant, sold a foreclosure in Temecula to an Arizona investment firm for $139,000 when comparable homes in the area were selling for $240,000 to $260,000.

The firm listed the home for $249,000, received multiple offers and the property has entered escrow, said Amber Schlieder, the real estate agent who handled the listing. ...

ndeed, the Temecula foreclosure was first listed for sale by Citigroup in May 2007 for $420,000, according to Multi-Regional Multiple Listing Service, a real estate posting site used by real estate agents.

The property was listed on the site for 19 months before selling to the investors in a bulk sale in December 2008. The lowest price it was listed for was $314,000.

"It should have been listed for less," said Craig Finlayson, a real estate agent in the area who listed the property for Citigroup. "But it would have sold for more than 139 (thousand); 139 was a giveaway price." ...

Another investor eyeing bulk sales is Bruce Norris, president of The Norris Group, a Riverside investment firm.

Norris said he has not yet found great value in bulk sales but expects bigger discounts on bank-owned properties in the near future. Instead, his company snatches foreclosures once they are listed.

So far, his company has purchased about 50 foreclosures after making about 1,400 offers. He says banks are routinely selling properties for 75 percent less than the mortgage note. ...

"Capitulation is here already," he said. "What's coming, there's a new name. It's something we still have to dream up. It's complete terror."
So do I keep lowballing every weekend or wait for complete terror? :goodposting:
 
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I've mentioned in a few times in other threads over the past month that Temecula CA has bottomed and I am trying to take advantage. Well, here's confirmation:

Lenders have become so overwhelmed by the foreclosure crisis that they are starting to unload properties in bulk to investor groups at steep discounts.

Investors then flip the properties for a profit without necessarily improving the home.

For example, a unit of Citigroup, the troubled financial giant, sold a foreclosure in Temecula to an Arizona investment firm for $139,000 when comparable homes in the area were selling for $240,000 to $260,000.

The firm listed the home for $249,000, received multiple offers and the property has entered escrow, said Amber Schlieder, the real estate agent who handled the listing. ...

ndeed, the Temecula foreclosure was first listed for sale by Citigroup in May 2007 for $420,000, according to Multi-Regional Multiple Listing Service, a real estate posting site used by real estate agents.

The property was listed on the site for 19 months before selling to the investors in a bulk sale in December 2008. The lowest price it was listed for was $314,000.

"It should have been listed for less," said Craig Finlayson, a real estate agent in the area who listed the property for Citigroup. "But it would have sold for more than 139 (thousand); 139 was a giveaway price." ...

Another investor eyeing bulk sales is Bruce Norris, president of The Norris Group, a Riverside investment firm.

Norris said he has not yet found great value in bulk sales but expects bigger discounts on bank-owned properties in the near future. Instead, his company snatches foreclosures once they are listed.

So far, his company has purchased about 50 foreclosures after making about 1,400 offers. He says banks are routinely selling properties for 75 percent less than the mortgage note. ...

"Capitulation is here already," he said. "What's coming, there's a new name. It's something we still have to dream up. It's complete terror."
So do I keep lowballing every weekend or wait for complete terror? :thumbdown:
I really don't have much knowledge on Temecula specifically, but to determine if that market has truly bottomed you need to compare all of your housing costs for ownership to comparable rental rates. Other quick rules of thumb for this is to see if sale prices run about 160 times monthly rent or about 15 times annual rent. One thing to keep in mind about rental trends is that rents in Southern California have also been decreasing and figure to continue that trend in the near to mid future. Lastly, local median housing prices should be about 3 to 3.5x local median gross incomes.
 
I occasionally see a tv commercial sponsored by the NAR saying "there's never been a better time to buy a home!" Makes me :thumbup: every time.
Yeah, the NAR is a ####### joke. Unemployment increasing, record inventory, and only a handful of qualified buyers out there; you don't have to have a PHD in economics to figure out how supply and demand is going to work in this situation.
In their defense, if you're a move up buyer it's a good time to do so.
 
I occasionally see a tv commercial sponsored by the NAR saying "there's never been a better time to buy a home!" Makes me :goodposting: every time.
Yeah, the NAR is a ####### joke. Unemployment increasing, record inventory, and only a handful of qualified buyers out there; you don't have to have a PHD in economics to figure out how supply and demand is going to work in this situation.
In their defense, if you're a move up buyer it's a good time to do so.
Meh. This assumes you are able to find a buyer for your current house which is no easy feat here in SoCal at the moment. Not to mention that much of the middle to upper tier markets are still grossly overvalued. Ya, you would be selling one overvalued house, but you would be trading up to an even more overvalued house. But of course, real estate is local and conditions may be more opportune in your neck of the woods.
 
I occasionally see a tv commercial sponsored by the NAR saying "there's never been a better time to buy a home!" Makes me :goodposting: every time.
Yeah, the NAR is a ####### joke. Unemployment increasing, record inventory, and only a handful of qualified buyers out there; you don't have to have a PHD in economics to figure out how supply and demand is going to work in this situation.
In their defense, if you're a move up buyer it's a good time to do so.
Meh. This assumes you are able to find a buyer for your current house which is no easy feat here in SoCal at the moment. Not to mention that much of the middle to upper tier markets are still grossly overvalued. Ya, you would be selling one overvalued house, but you would be trading up to an even more overvalued house. But of course, real estate is local and conditions may be more opportune in your neck of the woods.
I think it mentions that in one of the ads. Of course in your market I understand your point.At $60 a sf we're close to the bottom here. New homes can't be built for that. Eventually the excess will be wrung out as the population continues to increase in this country.
 
At $60 a sf we're close to the bottom here. New homes can't be built for that. Eventually the excess will be wrung out as the population continues to increase in this country.
I would be hesitant to use new home construction costs as a market bottom as this assumes market conditions are conducive for new home builders to effectively compete against the resale market. But out of curiosity, what would be the price/sf break even point for new homes in your neighborhood?

 
At $60 a sf we're close to the bottom here. New homes can't be built for that. Eventually the excess will be wrung out as the population continues to increase in this country.
I would be hesitant to use new home construction costs as a market bottom as this assumes market conditions are conducive for new home builders to effectively compete against the resale market. But out of curiosity, what would be the price/sf break even point for new homes in your neighborhood?
I think it's roughly $60 with the lot included, slab construction. They were priced at $65-$70 per sf until the run up where they got to $100 per sf. Lumber, oil, and concrete all went through the roof. Those costs have retreated but are still higher than they were 5 years ago. I don't see them dropping any lower than they currently are. Obviously margins are now thin to non-existant and contract labor is cheaper. I'll talk to a builder friend and see what I can come up with.
 
I really don't have much knowledge on Temecula specifically, but to determine if that market has truly bottomed...
Temecula is at a mathematical bottom. It has overshot if you go by price rent ratios. There's a dozen++ homes available that will rent for a grand in a heartbeat (the rental market is loaded with leases between 1250 -1300 in these neighborhoods). They'll come with payments between 900-950 (w/minimum down). Banks aren't even listing all the inventory. Bulk investors know what they're doing.The math we use is a little more complicated than the rule of thumb you posted because rates are so low and my boss is a geek. I've been considering a couple condos closer in, but I keep going for nicey nice properties that have come down from a half million plus, trying to buy them under 200. The investors in the article aren't the only ones who've made such deals. I'm in no hurry and that makes me greedy.The only way this isn't a bottom is if rents crash (possible with maximum pain), but this community is supported by being a short commute to San Diego North County. So the much higher rents there will likewise have to crash.
 
I've mentioned in a few times in other threads over the past month that Temecula CA has bottomed and I am trying to take advantage. Well, here's confirmation:

Lenders have become so overwhelmed by the foreclosure crisis that they are starting to unload properties in bulk to investor groups at steep discounts.

Investors then flip the properties for a profit without necessarily improving the home.

For example, a unit of Citigroup, the troubled financial giant, sold a foreclosure in Temecula to an Arizona investment firm for $139,000 when comparable homes in the area were selling for $240,000 to $260,000.

The firm listed the home for $249,000, received multiple offers and the property has entered escrow, said Amber Schlieder, the real estate agent who handled the listing. ...

ndeed, the Temecula foreclosure was first listed for sale by Citigroup in May 2007 for $420,000, according to Multi-Regional Multiple Listing Service, a real estate posting site used by real estate agents.

The property was listed on the site for 19 months before selling to the investors in a bulk sale in December 2008. The lowest price it was listed for was $314,000.

"It should have been listed for less," said Craig Finlayson, a real estate agent in the area who listed the property for Citigroup. "But it would have sold for more than 139 (thousand); 139 was a giveaway price." ...

Another investor eyeing bulk sales is Bruce Norris, president of The Norris Group, a Riverside investment firm.

Norris said he has not yet found great value in bulk sales but expects bigger discounts on bank-owned properties in the near future. Instead, his company snatches foreclosures once they are listed.

So far, his company has purchased about 50 foreclosures after making about 1,400 offers. He says banks are routinely selling properties for 75 percent less than the mortgage note. ...

"Capitulation is here already," he said. "What's coming, there's a new name. It's something we still have to dream up. It's complete terror."
So do I keep lowballing every weekend or wait for complete terror? :thumbup:
I really don't have much knowledge on Temecula specifically, but to determine if that market has truly bottomed you need to compare all of your housing costs for ownership to comparable rental rates. Other quick rules of thumb for this is to see if sale prices run about 160 times monthly rent or about 15 times annual rent. One thing to keep in mind about rental trends is that rents in Southern California have also been decreasing and figure to continue that trend in the near to mid future. Lastly, local median housing prices should be about 3 to 3.5x local median gross incomes.
Interesting.Our home in Santa Barbara runs about $4000 / month.

So doing the math brings the number to $640K,

which is pretty darn close to the current market value.

That's a nice little formula, QC.

thanks.

 
I really don't have much knowledge on Temecula specifically, but to determine if that market has truly bottomed...
Temecula is at a mathematical bottom. It has overshot if you go by price rent ratios. There's a dozen++ homes available that will rent for a grand in a heartbeat (the rental market is loaded with leases between 1250 -1300 in these neighborhoods). They'll come with payments between 900-950 (w/minimum down). Banks aren't even listing all the inventory. Bulk investors know what they're doing.The math we use is a little more complicated than the rule of thumb you posted because rates are so low and my boss is a geek. I've been considering a couple condos closer in, but I keep going for nicey nice properties that have come down from a half million plus, trying to buy them under 200. The investors in the article aren't the only ones who've made such deals. I'm in no hurry and that makes me greedy.The only way this isn't a bottom is if rents crash (possible with maximum pain), but this community is supported by being a short commute to San Diego North County. So the much higher rents there will likewise have to crash.
It sounds like you have done your due diligence and you definitely know the market. The only question mark I see is the SD North County job and housing market. As you alluded to, if either/both of those tank, there won't be much demand for Temecula.
 
This Saturday I'm going to an auction in my zip code where the houses were selling for $389k 12-18 months ago. The auction notice states that the sellers will take the best offer over $221k. Apparently it's a divorce situation. It's a very nice 11-year-old two story and I'm very curious to see what takes it.
$221K could very well represent a nice profit for them (if they're the original owners).
They paid $187k in 1997. There's probably an equity cash-out somewhere along the line and/or some affiliated divorce expenses that account for their floor.
Update on this: somebody swooped in and purchased the house pre-auction for $300,000. I'm a little disappointed because I think an open auction would have been more informative as to where we really are around here. Still, that purchase price represents about a 23% decline from the top listing price.
 
New Case Shiller numbers (January stats) out today. The price declines are accelerating.

Record drop in home price index

The S&P Case-Shiller 20-city index sets marks for monthly and annual declines, as fall extends to 30th straight month.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Housing prices in 20 major cities fell at record monthly and annual levels in January, according to a private report issued Tuesday, with prices down 2.8% from December and 19% from a year earlier.

The S&P Case-Shiller Home Price Index, a comparison of price changes recorded when homes are resold, is considered to be one of the most accurate gauges of market trends available. Its 20-city index has been down for 30 straight months.

Month-over-month home prices fell in all 20 markets during January and are now at late 2003 levels.

"There are very few bright spots that one can see in the data," said David Blitzer, chairman of the index committee at Standard and Poor's. "Most of the nation appears to remain on a downward path, with all of the 20 metro areas reporting annual declines, and nine of the MSAs (metropolitan statistical areas) falling more than 20% in the last year."

All told, prices have plunged 29.1% nationally since they peaked during the second quarter of 2006, according to Case-Shiller.

Individual metro areas have fared far worse. In Phoenix, home prices have fallen 35% year-over-year, while Las Vegas has been down 32.5%, San Francisco has been down 32.4% and Miami has fallen 29.4%.

Phoenix has lost 48.5% from its peak, the most of any metro area. Other big losses were absorbed by: Las Vegas, Miami, Phoenix, San Francisco and San Diego; each has seen home prices decline more than 40% from their peaks.

All 20 index cities were in negative territory, with Dallas being the least affected at a loss of 4.9%. Others in single-digit losses were: Denver at 5.1%, and Cleveland at 5.2%.

The latest report confirms anecdotal information that has been streaming in from around the nation, according to Mike Larson, a real estate analyst with Weiss Research.

"The pace of decline has picked up recently," he said. "Arguably, that's just what we need to drive up sales activity and reduce inventory."

The nation is grappling with historically high foreclosure rates, which add to inventories of homes for sale and drive down prices. In many markets, a large percentage of the homes changing hands are what's known as "distressed properties," meaning they are either bank repossessions or short sales, deals in which owners sell their homes for less than what they owe on their mortgages.

Much of the sales traffic is in foreclosure inventory, which may be skewing price statistics downward because distressed properties are often in poor condition.

But Larson does not expect home prices to improve anytime soon as job losses mount. "The biggest risk going forward is the health of the overall economy," he said.

There has been a string of positive housing market reports over the past few weeks, pointed out Pat Newport, an analyst with IHS Global Insight. New home sales are rebounding, existing home sales are rising and low interest rates are sending mortgage applications up.

"Those reports are not reflected in the January Case-Shiller report," he said. They won't be until at least the February statistics and even the March statistics come out.
Be patient out there folks. Still lots of downside risk in bubble markets. A home that is 40% off is a great deal until next year when it's 60% off.
 
Be patient out there folks. Still lots of downside risk in bubble markets. A home that is 40% off is a great deal until next year when it's 60% off.
Some of these prices are so ridiculous you have to either buy or get run over by investors who are in a feeding frenzy. In a world where this isn't a steal, the pain is so fierce it doesn't matter anymore. It's all over but the revolution. "We" bought two 1br condos in Vegas (Summerlin) this past week for a total price of 54,000. The best thing is they are next door neighbors. It came out to 1530 square feet, two bed, two baths, two kitchens, two dinings, two livings, two patios with two one car garages. Rent one and it pays for both including HOA and 10% to a property management company. Payment is 254.98 (for both). Rents are down at $650-700 for similar. Wat? Are you kidding me? I'll take ten more of these, please. Btw, there were about ten just like them on the market last week and every one is gone today. This is a pouncers market. Inventory that's on the market for one or two days is where the steals are. The banks are backlogged with this inventory. They just don't want to release it all at once.

Everybody should have a place in Vegas before this is over. Just do it. If the one in the link can handle a minor conversion for a wheelchair then you have to race me for it.

 
Be patient out there folks. Still lots of downside risk in bubble markets. A home that is 40% off is a great deal until next year when it's 60% off.
Some of these prices are so ridiculous you have to either buy or get run over by investors who are in a feeding frenzy. In a world where this isn't a steal, the pain is so fierce it doesn't matter anymore. It's all over but the revolution. "We" bought two 1br condos in Vegas (Summerlin) this past week for a total price of 54,000. The best thing is they are next door neighbors. It came out to 1530 square feet, two bed, two baths, two kitchens, two dinings, two livings, two patios with two one car garages. Rent one and it pays for both including HOA and 10% to a property management company. Payment is 254.98 (for both). Rents are down at $650-700 for similar. Wat? Are you kidding me? I'll take ten more of these, please. Btw, there were about ten just like them on the market last week and every one is gone today. This is a pouncers market. Inventory that's on the market for one or two days is where the steals are. The banks are backlogged with this inventory. They just don't want to release it all at once.

Everybody should have a place in Vegas before this is over. Just do it. If the one in the link can handle a minor conversion for a wheelchair then you have to race me for it.
WOW....that is ridiculous. Good for you CC.
 
% loss from peak for 20 metro areas

Prices still need to fall almost another 33% to get back to historic norms.

Meanwhile, unemployment claims continue to rise in record numbers.

The bloodbath continues. Those thinking this pain is over are ignoring the data.
People just need to make sure that they are not using generic data for their specific situation and actually do their homework. Just had an appraisal done last week on my house and the value came in at $100k more than I paid for it 4 years ago. Yes, the market is down...but not as dire in every area as many would have you believe. Not my opinion...this is based on specific current values.
 
% loss from peak for 20 metro areas

Prices still need to fall almost another 33% to get back to historic norms.

Meanwhile, unemployment claims continue to rise in record numbers.

The bloodbath continues. Those thinking this pain is over are ignoring the data.
At a certain point you need to consider the price per sq ft of new construction. Unless you're anticipating deflation (which the fed is doing everything possible to avoid) it will create an actual price point based upon fundamentals.
 
My brother bought a house a few months ago in Walnut Creek in the Bay Area. He got the fifth house he put a bid up for. The other ones were gone in a matter of days. There are good deals to be had and there are a lot of investors out there snatching them up. You just have to do your homework.

 
% loss from peak for 20 metro areas

Prices still need to fall almost another 33% to get back to historic norms.

Meanwhile, unemployment claims continue to rise in record numbers.

The bloodbath continues. Those thinking this pain is over are ignoring the data.
People just need to make sure that they are not using generic data for their specific situation and actually do their homework. Just had an appraisal done last week on my house and the value came in at $100k more than I paid for it 4 years ago. Yes, the market is down...but not as dire in every area as many would have you believe. Not my opinion...this is based on specific current values.
The places that were overbuilt before and during the peak of the bubble are getting hit the hardest. Phoenix, Vegas, Miami, etc. Some areas around San Diego, LA, SF and Orange County are also experiencing harsh deflationary depreciation. But those three areas also have long established fully developed areas that are fighting for ever dollar. I This graph doesn't tell the whole story for every city, but the numbers just keep falling.
 
tommyGunZ said:
Chaos Commish said:
tommyGunZ said:
Be patient out there folks. Still lots of downside risk in bubble markets. A home that is 40% off is a great deal until next year when it's 60% off.
Payment is 254.98 (for both). Rents are down at $650-700 for similar. Wat? Are you kidding me? I'll take ten more of these, please.
WOW....that is ridiculous. Good for you CC.
Thanks, but we was in quotes because it was a company purchase. I am not the owner, but I did handle the loan docs for a small fee. :lmao: The investors I work with (owners of the company) have now purchased seven properties in this downturn.

I am actively looking to buy for myself and some family members who are listening. Had I found that deal, I would have done it on my own. Temecula was occupying all my free time, but I have either been turned down, outbid or chicken so far. Vegas has my attention now. Above somewhere I say I am patient about this, but it is starting to wear thin.

Also, I think the FFA should collectively purchase in Vegas. Seed a fund for the downpayment in a legit escrow with 20 FFA bigshots, and collectively purchase a 5 bedroom 4000 square footer with a pool, a pub and an outdoor kitchen a few miles off the Strip. Places that were pushing a million are available for 375-400.

Should I set up the timeshare agreement? My fee is New Years every other year. ;)

 
Temecula is failing because that's where all the people went who wanted McMansions. It's the home of the over-extended family.

 
Mr. Nasty said:
tommyGunZ said:
% loss from peak for 20 metro areas

Prices still need to fall almost another 33% to get back to historic norms.

Meanwhile, unemployment claims continue to rise in record numbers.

The bloodbath continues. Those thinking this pain is over are ignoring the data.
People just need to make sure that they are not using generic data for their specific situation and actually do their homework. Just had an appraisal done last week on my house and the value came in at $100k more than I paid for it 4 years ago. Yes, the market is down...but not as dire in every area as many would have you believe. Not my opinion...this is based on specific current values.
Was that appraisal based off of recent comps? Considering that the market correction in OC has been working its way from the bottom up and homes in Newport and Laguna (the top of the market) are no longer selling above their peak prices, with all due respect, :wub:

 
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Another reason why we're seeing housing prices plummet - mortgage fraud.

24 people indicted in mortgage fraud scheme in San Diego

SAN DIEGO (AP) -- Twenty-four people have been indicted on racketeering conspiracy charges, accused of participating in a mortgage fraud scheme that earned about $9 million by fraudulently inducing lenders to give loans to people who didn't qualify for them.

An indictment unsealed Tuesday said the ringleader was a known gang member, Darnell Bell, 38, who used his status to recruit phony "straw buyers" and kept tabs on his co-defendants. Among those who were indicted were a real estate agent, an escrow officer, an appraiser and an accountant.

Bell, who is already serving a sentence for a drug conviction, made his initial court appearance Tuesday. The others were arrested and expected to appear in court Wednesday. It wasn't known if any of those charged had retained attorneys.

If convicted of racketeering conspiracy, each defendant faces up to 20 years in prison.

Prosecutors said the scam that ran from January 2005 to April 2008 involved more than 200 homes worth more than $100 million. The defendants duped lenders to provide loans to unqualified buyers and had loans funded in amounts that exceeded the home value, according to the indictment.

The money that exceeded the asking price paid at the close of escrow went to a shell construction company run by the criminal enterprise, prosecutors said.

For instance, for allowing the enterprise to use his broker's license, co-defendant Stanley Gentry received a $10,000 monthly payment and a percentage of the fees for each home purchase, investigators said.

"The individuals charged in this indictment have one thing in common: greed," said FBI Special Agent in Charge Keith Slotter. "They represent precisely those who have undermined our country's financial system by perpetuating such egregious schemes."

Prosecutors said Bell and others recruited the straw buyers who allowed their names and credit histories to be used to obtain loans and buy properties in name only on behalf of the scheme. Once the fake buyers failed to make their monthly mortgage payments, the homes went into foreclosure and cost lenders millions of dollars.
The article points out the dollar value (> $100M in homes) of the fraudulent purchases, but think of all the other homes purchased in legitimate transactions in which these 200 fraudulent purchases were used as comps. These fake purchases could have had an impact on thousands of real purchases, inflating values far and above the real market value. :goodposting: :lmao:

 
Another reason why we're seeing housing prices plummet - mortgage fraud.

24 people indicted in mortgage fraud scheme in San Diego

SAN DIEGO (AP) -- Twenty-four people have been indicted on racketeering conspiracy charges, accused of participating in a mortgage fraud scheme that earned about $9 million by fraudulently inducing lenders to give loans to people who didn't qualify for them.

An indictment unsealed Tuesday said the ringleader was a known gang member, Darnell Bell, 38, who used his status to recruit phony "straw buyers" and kept tabs on his co-defendants. Among those who were indicted were a real estate agent, an escrow officer, an appraiser and an accountant.

Bell, who is already serving a sentence for a drug conviction, made his initial court appearance Tuesday. The others were arrested and expected to appear in court Wednesday. It wasn't known if any of those charged had retained attorneys.

If convicted of racketeering conspiracy, each defendant faces up to 20 years in prison.

Prosecutors said the scam that ran from January 2005 to April 2008 involved more than 200 homes worth more than $100 million. The defendants duped lenders to provide loans to unqualified buyers and had loans funded in amounts that exceeded the home value, according to the indictment.

The money that exceeded the asking price paid at the close of escrow went to a shell construction company run by the criminal enterprise, prosecutors said.

For instance, for allowing the enterprise to use his broker's license, co-defendant Stanley Gentry received a $10,000 monthly payment and a percentage of the fees for each home purchase, investigators said.

"The individuals charged in this indictment have one thing in common: greed," said FBI Special Agent in Charge Keith Slotter. "They represent precisely those who have undermined our country's financial system by perpetuating such egregious schemes."

Prosecutors said Bell and others recruited the straw buyers who allowed their names and credit histories to be used to obtain loans and buy properties in name only on behalf of the scheme. Once the fake buyers failed to make their monthly mortgage payments, the homes went into foreclosure and cost lenders millions of dollars.
The article points out the dollar value (> $100M in homes) of the fraudulent purchases, but think of all the other homes purchased in legitimate transactions in which these 200 fraudulent purchases were used as comps. These fake purchases could have had an impact on thousands of real purchases, inflating values far and above the real market value. :scared: :wall:
This is much the same kind of scam they were running in Baltimore a few years back, a scheme that made many people think that "flipping" houses was disreputable. Of course it wasn't flipping, it was just plain fraud. Rack these guys.
 
Forclosures starting to mount in coastal areas here in San Diego. Looking at this chart, it's easy to see the 6-7 month lag from NOD to NOTrustee Sale. By following this data, you can get a decent idea of how the RE market in your city will look 6-8 months from now.

It's obvious that there is a flood of foreclosures just beginning to hit the SD market after a short reprise due to the moratorium last fall. If you're in SD, and you're looking to buy in an area that hasn't been completely hammered yet (coastal areas north of the city), you'd be crazy to buy unless you're getting a steal. Let the bloodbath begin.

 
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This is the first quarter since the "bubble burst" that we have seen < 10% growth in our neighborhood. It is also the first quarter that equity gains have been lower than 5%. Still...no houses sold for a loss.

 
Safe to say this will take 5 years to shake out of the system? More?
i ####### hope not. i had no idea it would play out this long. Wifey and I thought '08, then '09, now we're looking to move into a bigger place and we're going to rent. Figure it's at least 2011 before things get reasonable again in coastal SD. Prices are sticky on the way down. So frustrating waiting on the envitable.
 
Safe to say this will take 5 years to shake out of the system? More?
i ####### hope not. i had no idea it would play out this long. Wifey and I thought '08, then '09, now we're looking to move into a bigger place and we're going to rent. Figure it's at least 2011 before things get reasonable again in coastal SD. Prices are sticky on the way down. So frustrating waiting on the envitable.
Hang in there tgunz. You've been doing the right thing for so long now, what is another 1-2 years?My wife and I finally capitulated (well, let's say I capitulated - she wanted to buy 3 years ago) and bought a house in Evanston, IL. The market is still softening there, so we run the risk of overpaying by 5-10%. On the plus side, we paid approx. 15-20% less than the couple we bought from. Unless we stay there more than 5 years, I doubt we build equity.
 
I think I heard the other day the condo market in either Tampa or FL was up 35%.
Sales? Or median prices?Be careful, both can be deceiving. Sales are going to be up when foreclosures drive condos in less desirable areas to cash flow positive levels. Median prices can rise when the higher end capitulates and more expensive homes start selling. Here in SD, foreclosures and sales in the lower end dominated sales for a while. Now some middle tier and higher end sellers are finally waking up, lowering prices, and seeing a few sales. This skews the median, and makes it appear that prices are rising, when in fact there is no piece of macroeconomic data that would support a rise in residential real estate.
 
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I think I heard the other day the condo market in either Tampa or FL was up 35%.
Sales? Or median prices?Be careful, both can be deceiving. Sales are going to be up when foreclosures drive condos in less desirable areas to cash flow positive levels. Median prices can rise when the higher end capitulates and more expensive homes start selling. Here in SD, foreclosures and sales in the lower end dominated sales for a while. Now some middle tier and higher end sellers are finally waking up, lowering prices, and seeing a few sales. This skews the median, and makes it appear that prices are rising, when in fact there is no piece of macroeconomic data that would support a rise in residential real estate.
Yeah, that's exactly what's happening. They are so freaking cheap.
 
I'm walking some vacant land (about 7 acres) with the seller and a realtor this week in an area the wife and I would really like to live. Our thought is to buy it now and maybe start building sometime in the next 2-3 years. Do you guys that follow real estate closely feel like pricing for vacant land has tracked housing prices pretty closely? Or, are they fairly independent of each other? From what I can see in the suburbs of Chicago, prices for land alone has been much less volatile.

 
FHA - pretty sure I don't like this move.

MORTGAGES

FHA may be setting up repeat of housing bubble, lawmakers worry

The percentage of loans backed by the agency that are delinquent or in foreclosure hit nearly 8% at the end of June. Critics say borrowers don't have enough of a stake in keeping up with payments.

By Jim Puzzanghera

October 8, 2009

Reporting from Washington - In the wake of the mortgage meltdown, the Federal Housing Administration has emerged as a pillar of the still wobbly housing market -- providing vital insurance that enables borrowers to qualify for loans with as little as 3.5% down.

This year alone the agency has backed nearly 2 million mortgages worth at least $328 billion. It insured 21.5% of all new mortgages last year, up from fewer than 6% in 2007.

Some lawmakers, however, worry that the FHA may be doing its job too well -- enabling too many people with shaky finances to get loans, and in effect setting up a potential repeat of the housing bubble fueled in part by no-questions-asked subprime loans.

Recent numbers appear to underscore those concerns. The percentage of FHA loans that are delinquent or in foreclosure climbed to nearly 8% at the end of June, from about 5.5% in early 2006, according to the Mortgage Bankers Assn. And in the weeks ahead, its reserves for loan losses are projected to slip below federally mandated limits.

"It's not the least bit implausible to be concerned about the ever-deteriorating performance of the FHA portfolio," said UCLA finance professor Stuart Gabriel, director of the university's Ziman Center for Real Estate. "The jury is out as to whether the FHA is going to need a government infusion."

The real estate industry believes the FHA is vital to the housing market because its insurance enables people with modest incomes to buy homes -- people who otherwise would probably be turned away by banks.

But because their initial investment is modest, critics believe, these borrowers have little incentive to stay in their homes if they are hit by a job loss or by another drop in home values.

"You have to ask the question: Have we figured out what got us here in the first place and are we going to make sure we don't replicate that failed system?" Rep. Scott Garrett (R-N.J.) said.

Those questions and others will be addressed today, when a congressional committee starts examining how the FHA's reserves for loan losses have dwindled so fast.

One proposed solution to the agency's troubles, backed by Garrett and others, is to raise the minimum down payment on FHA loans to 5%. Backers believe that will encourage borrowers to stay in their homes and not let them fall into foreclosure.

But new FHA Commissioner David H. Stevens said such a move could threaten the nascent housing recovery. A person looking to buy a $300,000 house, for instance, would have to raise an additional $4,500 for the down payment.

"All that's going to do is ####### recovery," he said.

Stevens said the agency was making changes to reduce risk, such as lending to people with higher credit scores. And he insisted that the FHA, which has always been funded by mortgage insurance premiums, will not need a taxpayer bailout.

But the FHA is straddling a difficult, and potentially perilous, line -- trying to prime a housing recovery without overextending itself so far that it requires an infusion of taxpayer money.

"On the one hand, it's providing support to the housing market," Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke told lawmakers last week. "On the other hand, clearly, I think it's fair to say that given the low down payments, there's certainly greater risk of loss there, which would be ultimately borne by the taxpayer. . . . So I think that's a trade-off that Congress has to look at."

The FHA was created during the Great Depression to help revive the devastated real estate market at that time. In the decades since, it played a vital, though secondary, role in the real estate market by insuring mortgages from approved lenders for people who had steady work but could not afford a large down payment.

The FHA program is funded by premiums paid by homeowners, and those premiums drop off after five years or when the remaining loan balance is 78% of the home's value.

When housing prices were soaring, almost anyone could get a subprime mortgage, and the FHA's importance was diminished. But with subprime lenders gone and banks hesitant to make loans with less than a 20% down payment, the FHA has become the only option for many home buyers.

"With the collapse of subprime, suddenly they're more important than ever," said Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, a Washington think tank. "I don't know that they're prepared to take on that burden."

Congress boosted the agency's business last year by more than doubling the limit on the maximum FHA-backed loan, to $729,750, in Los Angeles and other high-cost markets. Through Aug. 31 of this year, the FHA had insured nearly 1.8 million mortgages worth at least $328 billion, or nearly half the total of $675 billion worth of mortgages on its books -- putting it on pace for its busiest fiscal year, which ended last week.

The percentage of loans backed by the agency that are delinquent or in foreclosure hit nearly 8% at the end of June. Critics say borrowers don't have enough of a stake in keeping up with payments.

But the agency is also much more exposed to the volatile housing market. Experts worry that if home values start tumbling again, new FHA-insured mortgages would be underwater because of the low down payment.

Fraud by lenders is also a concern, according to an inspector general's report in June. The number of FHA-approved lenders shot up from 692 in 2006 to more than 3,300 last year, and the agency's business picked up in some markets, such as L.A., that were largely unfamiliar to it. Those factors, the report said, increased the risk of such lender abuse as fraudulent appraisals.

Alarm bells went off last month when the FHA projected that its secondary reserve fund would fall below the congressionally mandated level of 2% of all mortgages on its books. The fund was at 6.4% at the end of September 2007.

In the FHA's defense, Stevens points out that it requires borrowers to document their incomes and insures only standard, 30-year fixed-rate mortgages. Raising the minimum down payment would be an overreaction based more on emotion than facts, he said.

"No one's more risk-averse in FHA's history than me, but I do worry about people jumping to legislative solutions that are not based on factual information," he said.

Stevens touted changes he had made to reduce risk and rebuild the agency's reserves without a government infusion. He will appoint the agency's first chief risk officer and wants to require lenders to have at least $1 million in cash and other assets, up from $250,000, so they can cover more losses before they're passed on to the FHA.

"We're not going to need a taxpayer bailout," he said. "It's a fact."

David Kittle, chairman of the mortgage bankers group, said an increase in the minimum down payment would be "catastrophic" for the market.

"Why would you want to deter people further from buying homes when clearly you need to get homes off the market?" he said.

Some members of Congress, however, believe the risk may be too high.

"I'm concerned that the private market for loans with little or no money down has shifted directly onto the books of the federal government," said Rep. Ed Royce (R-Fullerton). "We need to make certain that taxpayers are not again on the hook for the failures of Washington."

jim.puzzanghera @latimes.com

Copyright © 2009, The Los Angeles Times
I can't understand how people haven't learned their lesson yet. It's enough with the govt. bail out already, this market needs to finish its correction.
 
My brother is finally looking for a house in San Diego. He seems to get outbid on all the ones he wants though. There's a handful of people snapping them all up as rentals since they are well above break-even. Looks like he should have jumped in a few months ago (at least in the particular area he is looking at).

 
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My brother is finally looking for a house in San Diego. He seems to get outbid on all the ones he wants though. There's a handful of people snapping them all up as rentals since they are well above break-even. Looks like he should have jumped in a few months ago (at least in the particular area he is looking at).
Someone please tell tommygunz this!
 
My brother is finally looking for a house in San Diego. He seems to get outbid on all the ones he wants though. There's a handful of people snapping them all up as rentals since they are well above break-even. Looks like he should have jumped in a few months ago (at least in the particular area he is looking at).
Someone please tell tommygunz this!
He might be looking at a different area. San Diego County is quite large.
 
My brother is finally looking for a house in San Diego. He seems to get outbid on all the ones he wants though. There's a handful of people snapping them all up as rentals since they are well above break-even. Looks like he should have jumped in a few months ago (at least in the particular area he is looking at).
Someone please tell tommygunz this!
He might be looking at a different area. San Diego County is quite large.
He is looking all over but believes the market still has a way to go before it hits bottom. We looked at a 3000 sqft house built in 2006 costing $400k. He said it should go down to $350.
 

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