HS girls stage a walkout as trans teen uses girls bathroom (1 Viewer)

[Juxtatarot]

Where is it that teenage friends of different sexes will take nude saunas together? Finland? I don't want to google search this.

It's not unusual for locker room shower facilities in high schools to have little privacy. I remember road football games where the shower heads weren't seperated by anything.

What do you mean by seperation? Dividers? I remember group showers through the college dorms. In Junior High the gym teacher would make us all line up naked and we would have a conga line through the showers. Not actually showering but we would get a little wet passing under each shower head.

 

[jonessed]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Just because a male is sterile doesn't make him not a male. Everyone is born with a reproductive function and will remain that way unless they have a sex change (which obviously involves a lot more than just cutting of some guy's penis).Hermaphrodites are the exception, but the doctors/parents normally choose a sex based on the dominant function and go through therapy/surgery. True hermaphrodites are extremely rare, but in those cases I imagine the individual would choose.

I don't see how hermaphrodites have anything to do with some guy wanting to use the girls HS locker. Is he a hermaphrodite?

Nope. SRYers (women with XY chromosomes) are generally born and develop without functioning reproductive systems. Lots of people are born sterile. Next.

There will always be birth defects. That doesn't change the fact that reproductive function defines gender.

 

[Henry Ford]

She won't face discrimination in the girls locker room?

She won't face the discrimination of being told she's not a girl and that she needs to go be a boy during gym class by a state-funded educational institution.

Like I said, the boys/girls distinction is genitalia. She's not being told she's not a girl. She's being told she has a penis.

What I have learned from the transgender supporters is, it doesn't matter what you physically are, only what you feel you are.

What you should be learning is that gender isn't a physical construct, it's a social one. And society no longer lives in the Butkus bubble. Stuff is changing, man, and it's weird and surprising and complicated, but it isn't bad.

 

[saintsfan]

I actually can't believe there are any people arguing that somebody with a penis should be able to change in a locker room full of teenage girls.

I understand she identifies with being a girl. That's fine. Have no problems with that.

There are only 3 choices

1. She goes in the girls locker room and most (these are high school girls. I feel pretty comfortable saying most if not all) of the girls are uncomfortable except the transgender girl. If you disagree, you don't have any or know any teenage girls

2. She goes in the boys locker room and she feels uncomfortable

3. She goes in a gender neutral locker room where she feels discriminated against

Out of these three choices, the only 2 that are remotely doable is 2 and 3. You cannot force girls to be OK with changing in front of a transgender girl if they feel uncomfortable just to make that one person comfortable. This is not the same as race. I'm sorry. It's not. Make the 3rd locker room equal to the first two. Problem solved.

 

[jonessed]

She won't face discrimination in the girls locker room?

She won't face the discrimination of being told she's not a girl and that she needs to go be a boy during gym class by a state-funded educational institution.

Like I said, the boys/girls distinction is genitalia. She's not being told she's not a girl. She's being told she has a penis.

What I have learned from the transgender supporters is, it doesn't matter what you physically are, only what you feel you are.

The shark move is to feel like a hermaphrodite and just go wherever you please.

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Just because a male is sterile doesn't make him not a male. Everyone is born with a reproductive function and will remain that way unless they have a sex change (which obviously involves a lot more than just cutting of some guy's penis).Hermaphrodites are the exception, but the doctors/parents normally choose a sex based on the dominant function and go through therapy/surgery. True hermaphrodites are extremely rare, but in those cases I imagine the individual would choose.

I don't see how hermaphrodites have anything to do with some guy wanting to use the girls HS locker. Is he a hermaphrodite?

Nope. SRYers (women with XY chromosomes) are generally born and develop without functioning reproductive systems. Lots of people are born sterile. Next.

There will always be birth defects. That doesn't change the fact that reproductive function defines gender.

Well, that doesn't, but the fact that gender is socially constructed kind of impacts the issue.

And what you said is that everyone is born with reproductive function. That's obviously wrong.

 

[Black Box]

Here's the closest I can get to explaining that based on the case law - which is really the case law of transgender bathroom/locker room denials by the schools, prior to the U.S. Department of Education shifting its position and the new attempts to include transgender people as a protected class:

People have a privacy right while using the restroom. The extent of that right, the reasons behind it, who's responsible for protecting it, all of that is in a constant state of "well, this sounds kind of reasonable" flux with the courts. Schools and businesses need to protect that mostly undefined privacy right. As such, they are allowed to use rational basis reasons for limiting who gets to use what restrooms, and how they're constructed, and that kind of thing. But, of course, they aren't allowed to violate federal or state anti-discrimination laws.

1) In this specific case, it "sounds kind of reasonable" to allow Perry to use a private changing area, at least to me and to other school officials. I assume that, for you and others, this is not acceptable because it violates the discrimination aspect of the law, correct?

2) I am assuming that a woman is not allowed into a men's locker room, legally speaking. How does that not violate federal anti-discrimination laws against women?

1) It sounds kind of reasonable to me, too. I've said that repeatedly. It isn't acceptable to the kid, though, because she feels segregated. That's what makes all this a tough call. My mind wasn't made up when I came into this thread, and no one on the other side is giving me a compelling argument.2) Rational basis for separation by the school. That's the thing that makes discussion of these rights complicated - it isn't litigated in terms of "right to privacy of the men in the locker room" it's litigated in terms of "right of the school to protect itself from lawsuits related to the right of privacy."

Ok, I think I am starting to see where you are coming from.

So the school has to decide which course of action results in it protecting itself best from lawsuits related to the right of privacy, without exposing itself to potential discrimination lawsuits?

Right. And that's the complicated issue I have been talking about for several pages that I find fascinating.

You have to remember, we are not all lawyers so we don't pick up on legal fascinating legal nuances like you

Regardless, Perry has said that the school administration has been accommodating to her. The school is pretty much guaranteed a lawsuit either way: a discrimination one from Perry or a privacy one from any of the other girls.

If I were the school, I would maintain course on the private bathroom/changing facilities, and when faced with Perry's lawsuit, point out her statements about how accommodating the school has been in the past, point out that the school has done nothing to change anything in the situation, and it is only Perry's feelings that have changed. And we've already established how much credence we give to teenage girls' feelings.

IANAL, but there you go.

 

[Hang 10]

Where is it that teenage friends of different sexes will take nude saunas together? Finland? I don't want to google search this.

It's not unusual for locker room shower facilities in high schools to have little privacy. I remember road football games where the shower heads weren't seperated by anything.

What do you mean by seperation? Dividers? I remember group showers through the college dorms. In Junior High the gym teacher would make us all line up naked and we would have a conga line through the showers. Not actually showering but we would get a little wet passing under each shower head.

Yeah, I mean that there's shower heads lined up on a wall and nothing in between.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I like this whole "transgender accommodation will leave the door open to perverts and sex criminals exploiting women!' angle.

If you're a sleazy heterosexual man who is willing to do awful things in order to view naked women against their will, you don't need to pretend to be transgender to do it. If you're desperate and pathetic enough to lie about your identity to see boobs, I'm betting you're also desperate and pathetic enough to install a hidden camera or watch one that someone else has installed on the internet.

Protecting women from sex criminals who fraudulently declare themselves to be transgender is pretty much at the bottom of the list of sex criminal behaviors we should be concerned about.

No but apparently if you do declare that you are transgender (and my understanding that is all that is required, a declaration) you can legally be a pervert.

Go give it a shot. See how it works out.

I guarantee there will be people/kids who do and at that point the school board is going to pay through the nose. IMO opinion this is a stupid ####### law that is going to end up backfiring in a big way and then this stupid ####### law will be changed. Unfortunately somebody's daughter is going to have to suffer prior to this stupid ####### law getting changed.

Maybe so, maybe not. All I'm saying that if you're interested in protecting women and girls from objectification and awkwardness and perverts, there's like thousands of things that you should prioritize ahead of this. Let's start with stuff like this (John Oliver segment online harassment, SFW) before we worry about the hypothetical exploitation of transgender rights that as far as we know has literally never happened.

 

[Hang 10]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Just because a male is sterile doesn't make him not a male. Everyone is born with a reproductive function and will remain that way unless they have a sex change (which obviously involves a lot more than just cutting of some guy's penis).Hermaphrodites are the exception, but the doctors/parents normally choose a sex based on the dominant function and go through therapy/surgery. True hermaphrodites are extremely rare, but in those cases I imagine the individual would choose.

I don't see how hermaphrodites have anything to do with some guy wanting to use the girls HS locker. Is he a hermaphrodite?

Nope. SRYers (women with XY chromosomes) are generally born and develop without functioning reproductive systems. Lots of people are born sterile. Next.

There will always be birth defects. That doesn't change the fact that reproductive function defines gender.

Well, that doesn't, but the fact that gender is socially constructed kind of impacts the issue.

And what you said is that everyone is born with reproductive function. That's obviously wrong.

You're out of your mind.

 

[jonessed]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Just because a male is sterile doesn't make him not a male. Everyone is born with a reproductive function and will remain that way unless they have a sex change (which obviously involves a lot more than just cutting of some guy's penis).Hermaphrodites are the exception, but the doctors/parents normally choose a sex based on the dominant function and go through therapy/surgery. True hermaphrodites are extremely rare, but in those cases I imagine the individual would choose.

I don't see how hermaphrodites have anything to do with some guy wanting to use the girls HS locker. Is he a hermaphrodite?

Nope. SRYers (women with XY chromosomes) are generally born and develop without functioning reproductive systems. Lots of people are born sterile. Next.

There will always be birth defects. That doesn't change the fact that reproductive function defines gender.

Well, that doesn't, but the fact that gender is socially constructed kind of impacts the issue. And what you said is that everyone is born with reproductive function. That's obviously wrong.

Gender is not a social construct. Gender identity may be a Social construct, but gender is a physical construct.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Theoretically, the ideal outcome would be for every student to have his or her own private shower and dressing area. That maximizes everyone's privacy and avoids any possible discomfort, whether it's being leered at by someone of the opposite sex/gender/whatever or whether it's having to watch some old guy blow dry his balls.

But that's not feasible in most cases, so we do what we can to minimize the common, easily-identified stuff that's genuinely problematic for people (females being asked to change in front of males) while still allowing for minor unpleasantness as dictated by expediency (males having to share locker rooms with other males, some of whom do weird things like blow-dry their balls or wear women's clothing).

 

[pantagrapher]

It's nice to know we're raising kids to look at any of the perceived slights or uncomfortable situations they experience in life as potential legal issues.

 

[Henry Ford]

You have to remember, we are not all lawyers so we don't pick up on legal fascinating legal nuances like you

Regardless, Perry has said that the school administration has been accommodating to her. The school is pretty much guaranteed a lawsuit either way: a discrimination one from Perry or a privacy one from any of the other girls.

If I were the school, I would maintain course on the private changing bathroom/changing facilities, and when faced with Perry's lawsuit, point out her statements about how accommodating the school has been in the past, point out that the school has done nothing to change anything in the situation, and it is only Perry's feelings that have changed. And we've already established how much credence we give to teenage girls' feelings.

IANAL, but there you go.

If I were their lawyer, I might well do the same. I'd certainly sit down with the family and the administration and try to find a way to get through this, some other concession I could make to try to make this whole issue go away. But if the family drew a line in the sand and said "we want our kid in the girls' locker room or we are suing..." it would be dicey.

My personal belief is that this kid is doing what needs to be done to have gender reassignment surgery at 18. 17 now, wants to use the girls' locker room, and you have to live as a woman for a year before they'll do the surgery... timeline is right.

 

[Black Box]

Henry, I am also curious how you decide the gender of a person. Is it strictly by what the person says, or do you apply some other criteria along with what the person says?

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Just because a male is sterile doesn't make him not a male. Everyone is born with a reproductive function and will remain that way unless they have a sex change (which obviously involves a lot more than just cutting of some guy's penis).Hermaphrodites are the exception, but the doctors/parents normally choose a sex based on the dominant function and go through therapy/surgery. True hermaphrodites are extremely rare, but in those cases I imagine the individual would choose.

I don't see how hermaphrodites have anything to do with some guy wanting to use the girls HS locker. Is he a hermaphrodite?

Nope. SRYers (women with XY chromosomes) are generally born and develop without functioning reproductive systems. Lots of people are born sterile. Next.

There will always be birth defects. That doesn't change the fact that reproductive function defines gender.

Well, that doesn't, but the fact that gender is socially constructed kind of impacts the issue. And what you said is that everyone is born with reproductive function. That's obviously wrong.

Gender is not a social construct. Gender identity may be a Social construct, but gender is a physical construct.

Sex is a physical construct. Gender is separate.

 

[Henry Ford]

Henry, I am also curious how you decide the gender of a person. Is it strictly by what the person says, or do you apply some other criteria along with what the person says?

I try to go by social cues and actions, and how the person presents him/herself in public in relation to typical gender roles. I tend to use gender-neutral pronouns if I'm uncertain. And if things are "Pat from Saturday Night Live" level, I ask.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

She won't face discrimination in the girls locker room?

She won't face the discrimination of being told she's not a girl and that she needs to go be a boy during gym class by a state-funded educational institution.

Like I said, the boys/girls distinction is genitalia. She's not being told she's not a girl. She's being told she has a penis.

What I have learned from the transgender supporters is, it doesn't matter what you physically are, only what you feel you are.

What you should be learning is that gender isn't a physical construct, it's a social one. And society no longer lives in the Butkus bubble. Stuff is changing, man, and it's weird and surprising and complicated, but it isn't bad.

Henry I've got at best 25 years left on this rock. I'm willing to shake hands with you right now and tell you I will agree to disagree with you on this subject for all of those years. Apparently I have made my opinion quite known. I will try and refrain from any more comment, but I do think some of you have gone around the bend.

 

[jonessed]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Just because a male is sterile doesn't make him not a male. Everyone is born with a reproductive function and will remain that way unless they have a sex change (which obviously involves a lot more than just cutting of some guy's penis).Hermaphrodites are the exception, but the doctors/parents normally choose a sex based on the dominant function and go through therapy/surgery. True hermaphrodites are extremely rare, but in those cases I imagine the individual would choose.

I don't see how hermaphrodites have anything to do with some guy wanting to use the girls HS locker. Is he a hermaphrodite?

Nope. SRYers (women with XY chromosomes) are generally born and develop without functioning reproductive systems. Lots of people are born sterile. Next.

There will always be birth defects. That doesn't change the fact that reproductive function defines gender.

Well, that doesn't, but the fact that gender is socially constructed kind of impacts the issue. And what you said is that everyone is born with reproductive function. That's obviously wrong.

Gender is not a social construct. Gender identity may be a Social construct, but gender is a physical construct.

Sex is a physical construct. Gender is separate.

Alright, then the easy solution is to base locker room use on the person's sex.

 

[Henry Ford]

She won't face discrimination in the girls locker room?

She won't face the discrimination of being told she's not a girl and that she needs to go be a boy during gym class by a state-funded educational institution.

Like I said, the boys/girls distinction is genitalia. She's not being told she's not a girl. She's being told she has a penis.

What I have learned from the transgender supporters is, it doesn't matter what you physically are, only what you feel you are.

What you should be learning is that gender isn't a physical construct, it's a social one. And society no longer lives in the Butkus bubble. Stuff is changing, man, and it's weird and surprising and complicated, but it isn't bad.

Henry I've got at best 25 years left on this rock. I'm willing to shake hands with you right now and tell you I will agree to disagree with you on this subject for all of those years. Apparently I have made my opinion quite known. I will try and refrain from any more comment, but I do think some of you have gone around the bend.

Hey, look, I know you will disagree. I also know that you're mostly a good dude, and if history is any judge, even if you disagree you're not going to go form an organization based on protesting what happens in the future. Which, by the way, is that transgender people will be using the facilities you don't want them to use. Pretty much all the time. It's only going to get more prevalent. And people are going to care less and less.

And if, in 24 years, you happen to think "hey, you know what? Things haven't gotten worse, they've just gotten different, and occasionally there's a ###### in my locker room and the person it's attached to can be called 'him' or 'he' and that's okay, too" just look me up and I'll buy you a beer and we can chuckle about this thread.

 

[Henry Ford]

Alright, then the easy solution is to base locker room use based on the person's sex.

Okay, let's get back into this circle of discussion. How do you determine a person's sex for that?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

You have to remember, we are not all lawyers so we don't pick up on legal fascinating legal nuances like you

Regardless, Perry has said that the school administration has been accommodating to her. The school is pretty much guaranteed a lawsuit either way: a discrimination one from Perry or a privacy one from any of the other girls.

If I were the school, I would maintain course on the private changing bathroom/changing facilities, and when faced with Perry's lawsuit, point out her statements about how accommodating the school has been in the past, point out that the school has done nothing to change anything in the situation, and it is only Perry's feelings that have changed. And we've already established how much credence we give to teenage girls' feelings.

IANAL, but there you go.

If I were their lawyer, I might well do the same. I'd certainly sit down with the family and the administration and try to find a way to get through this, some other concession I could make to try to make this whole issue go away. But if the family drew a line in the sand and said "we want our kid in the girls' locker room or we are suing..." it would be dicey.

My personal belief is that this kid is doing what needs to be done to have gender reassignment surgery at 18. 17 now, wants to use the girls' locker room, and you have to live as a woman for a year before they'll do the surgery... timeline is right.

Wait........Dammit now I am back...You have to live as a woman for a year prior to surgery?

 

[Henry Ford]

You have to remember, we are not all lawyers so we don't pick up on legal fascinating legal nuances like you

Regardless, Perry has said that the school administration has been accommodating to her. The school is pretty much guaranteed a lawsuit either way: a discrimination one from Perry or a privacy one from any of the other girls.

If I were the school, I would maintain course on the private changing bathroom/changing facilities, and when faced with Perry's lawsuit, point out her statements about how accommodating the school has been in the past, point out that the school has done nothing to change anything in the situation, and it is only Perry's feelings that have changed. And we've already established how much credence we give to teenage girls' feelings.

IANAL, but there you go.

If I were their lawyer, I might well do the same. I'd certainly sit down with the family and the administration and try to find a way to get through this, some other concession I could make to try to make this whole issue go away. But if the family drew a line in the sand and said "we want our kid in the girls' locker room or we are suing..." it would be dicey.

My personal belief is that this kid is doing what needs to be done to have gender reassignment surgery at 18. 17 now, wants to use the girls' locker room, and you have to live as a woman for a year before they'll do the surgery... timeline is right.

Wait........Dammit now I am back...You have to live as a woman for a year prior to surgery?

Yep. First, because they generally do a year of hormone therapy before the surgery, but second because of liability and ethical issues for the doctors.

The standard of care for the surgery requires 1 year "real life experience" before the surgery.

 

[Zow]

I suppose this has been mentioned somewhere in these 9 pages but I assume kids aren't stripping down naked, lining up and then showering together for gym class these days.

Not generally, no.

No kidding. I tried to be naked for approximately .012 seconds when showering in the locker room in high school. So did everyone else - except for that one weirdo on the football team who thought it funny to run around naked and fake hump people which totally makes complete sense when he gets busted for public sexual indecency and exposing himself to minors five years later.

 

[Henry Ford]

Basically, Butkus, you can't just walk into a doctor's office and be like "hey, doc, cut off my wang. Thursday good for you?"

 

[Black Box]

Henry, I am also curious how you decide the gender of a person. Is it strictly by what the person says, or do you apply some other criteria along with what the person says?

I try to go by social cues and actions, and how the person presents him/herself in public in relation to typical gender roles. I tend to use gender-neutral pronouns if I'm uncertain. And if things are "Pat from Saturday Night Live" level, I ask.

So you include actions in the evaluation, that makes sense. Does a certain amount of time need to pass when it comes to actions? What level of consistency are you looking for? What if what a person says is in conflict with their actions? What if their actions are a mixed bag?

 

[Black Box]

I suppose this has been mentioned somewhere in these 9 pages but I assume kids aren't stripping down naked, lining up and then showering together for gym class these days.

Not generally, no.

No kidding. I tried to be naked for approximately .012 seconds when showering in the locker room in high school. So did everyone else - except for that one weirdo on the football team who thought it funny to run around naked and fake hump people which totally makes complete sense when he gets busted for public sexual indecency and exposing himself to minors five years later.

But it's just a penis, officer!

 

[Henry Ford]

Henry, I am also curious how you decide the gender of a person. Is it strictly by what the person says, or do you apply some other criteria along with what the person says?

I try to go by social cues and actions, and how the person presents him/herself in public in relation to typical gender roles. I tend to use gender-neutral pronouns if I'm uncertain. And if things are "Pat from Saturday Night Live" level, I ask.

So you include actions in the evaluation, that makes sense. Does a certain amount of time need to pass when it comes to actions? What level of consistency are you looking for? What if what a person says is in conflict with their actions? What if their actions are a mixed bag?

I don't really find any need to make a snap determination on people's gender. It's not like I'm in the dating pool. If I'm confused, I stay gender neutral and eventually ask. And if I'm wrong, most transgender people will correct me. Then I'll be right in the future.

 

[Black Box]

Henry, I am also curious how you decide the gender of a person. Is it strictly by what the person says, or do you apply some other criteria along with what the person says?

I try to go by social cues and actions, and how the person presents him/herself in public in relation to typical gender roles. I tend to use gender-neutral pronouns if I'm uncertain. And if things are "Pat from Saturday Night Live" level, I ask.

So you include actions in the evaluation, that makes sense. Does a certain amount of time need to pass when it comes to actions? What level of consistency are you looking for? What if what a person says is in conflict with their actions? What if their actions are a mixed bag?

I don't really find any need to make a snap determination on people's gender. It's not like I'm in the dating pool. If I'm confused, I stay gender neutral and eventually ask. And if I'm wrong, most transgender people will correct me. Then I'll be right in the future.

I'm asking in a legal sense. How does the law judge a person's gender? You seem to believe that it is really hard to figure out a persons' sex (based on the counter-examples you have given), but make it sound like identifying gender is relatively straightforward. I don't think it is, at all. Unless you just take a person's word for it, and completely ignore any behavior, but I think we can all see how that could be problematic, legally speaking.

Legally, I believe that identifying a person's sex is easier than identifying gender. Sure there are some subcategories that you have pointed out, but it isn't all that difficult to accommodate them. So why wouldn't we use a sex standard when it comes to the law? Why use gender at all?

 

[rockaction]

I suppose this has been mentioned somewhere in these 9 pages but I assume kids aren't stripping down naked, lining up and then showering together for gym class these days.

Not generally, no.

No kidding. I tried to be naked for approximately .012 seconds when showering in the locker room in high school. So did everyone else - except for that one weirdo on the football team who thought it funny to run around naked and fake hump people which totally makes complete sense when he gets busted for public sexual indecency and exposing himself to minors five years later.

Truly.

As far as the last five pages of the discussion go: The movement from "sex" to "gender" as an identifier was the problem in the first place, and has been addressed a million times in my own head out here in the Northeast. But I'm crazy, it seems, and not the overlawyered grievance rousers that portend to be human rights advocates.

 

[matttyl]

We know that having a penis isn't what makes you a boy (hermaphrodites, birth defects, etc),

See, you keep saying this and I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. In order to be a boy, you don't have to have a penis. Yeah, I'm good with that (hermaphrodites, birth defects, accidents, whatever). But having a penis makes you one.

Simply: Not all boys have penises. All who have a (operational) penis are boys. You know, think of a venn diagram.

I just think you're kidding yourself if in fact this student could impregnate a girl naturally and you don't consider them a male.

 

[matttyl]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

You keep bringing up this odd example. Losing your wee wee in a biking accident doesn't automatically mean you have a woo woo. In this odd case where this male now has neither, why would he have to change from the restroom he used yesterday?

 

[Henry Ford]

Henry, I am also curious how you decide the gender of a person. Is it strictly by what the person says, or do you apply some other criteria along with what the person says?

I try to go by social cues and actions, and how the person presents him/herself in public in relation to typical gender roles. I tend to use gender-neutral pronouns if I'm uncertain. And if things are "Pat from Saturday Night Live" level, I ask.

So you include actions in the evaluation, that makes sense. Does a certain amount of time need to pass when it comes to actions? What level of consistency are you looking for? What if what a person says is in conflict with their actions? What if their actions are a mixed bag?

I don't really find any need to make a snap determination on people's gender. It's not like I'm in the dating pool. If I'm confused, I stay gender neutral and eventually ask. And if I'm wrong, most transgender people will correct me. Then I'll be right in the future.

I'm asking in a legal sense. How does the law judge a person's gender? You seem to believe that it is really hard to figure out a persons' sex (based on the counter-examples you have given), but make it sound like identifying gender is relatively straightforward. I don't think it is, at all. Unless you just take a person's word for it, and completely ignore any behavior, but I think we can all see how that could be problematic, legally speaking.

Legally, I believe that identifying a person's sex is easier than identifying gender. Sure there are some subcategories that you have pointed out, but it isn't all that difficult to accommodate them. So why wouldn't we use a sex standard when it comes to the law? Why use gender at all?

If I've given that impression, I'm sorry. I think determining sex in the legal sense is really easy. I just think defining it in such a way as to get the effect desired by people trying to keep this kid out of a girls' locker room is tough. And that's because figuring out someone's gender is really what they want to do, and more than that for this kid's sex to match the kid's gender. Which it clearly doesn't.

We use gender because it's actually what we're talking about. We don't actually care if someone is genetically male or female, we just don't want to see a penis in the girls' room. But that's because we think it's icky. And that's a stupid reason to create a massive societal "rule." If someone who'd had gender reassignment surgery and had been living as a woman without a penis for 30 years got up from the table at a restaurant, kissed her husband, said she'd be right back and used the men's room, we'd think that was weird, too.

Really, as a society we just kind of wish people who didn't conform to what we think of as normal would go away and stop bothering us. And that's fine, but they're not going to.

 

[Henry Ford]

We know that having a penis isn't what makes you a boy (hermaphrodites, birth defects, etc),

See, you keep saying this and I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. In order to be a boy, you don't have to have a penis. Yeah, I'm good with that (hermaphrodites, birth defects, accidents, whatever). But having a penis makes you one.

Simply: Not all boys have penises. All who have a (operational) penis are boys. You know, think of a venn diagram.

I just think you're kidding yourself if in fact this student could impregnate a girl naturally and you don't consider them a male.

Hermaphrodites have a penis and they aren't male.

 

[matttyl]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Just because a male is sterile doesn't make him not a male. Everyone is born with a reproductive function and will remain that way unless they have a sex change (which obviously involves a lot more than just cutting of some guy's penis).

Hermaphrodites are the exception, but the doctors/parents normally choose a sex based on the dominant function and go through therapy/surgery. True hermaphrodites are extremely rare, but in those cases I imagine the individual would choose.

I don't see how hermaphrodites have anything to do with some guy wanting to use the girls HS locker. Is he a hermaphrodite?

Nope. SRYers (women with XY chromosomes) are generally born and develop without functioning reproductive systems. Lots of people are born sterile. Next.

Are any of them attempting to use the boys room? Do any of them even know they are XY unless they've gone through tests to confirm it?

 

[rockaction]

Really, as a society we just kind of wish people who didn't conform to what we think of as normal would go away and stop bothering us. And that's fine, but they're not going to.

No, they're not. This is completely true in a rights-based society. In a society that places emphasis on both majoritarianism and rights, this is where we begin to get a problem. We (The United States) are not a strictly duty society, but we're not a flat-out rights-based society. This is where both sides of the argument come in, and exposes everyone for all their icky tendencies about not wanting ##### in the room, which is prudish, but heretofore okay.

And it's not like bathrooms are sanctimonious spaces. If you really have to go, better in there than in public, frankly. We make exceptions for emergencies in most all cases. I'm just not so sure a high school boy identifying as a girl qualifies.

And I'm also rambling.

Would anyone like more?

 

[Henry Ford]

Are any of them attempting to use the boys room? Do any of them even know they are XY unless they've gone through tests to confirm it?

Well, sure, the ones who identify as male attempt to use the boys room.

And I guess you can't confirm a genetic marker without testing, but the initial wonder about it usually starts with late-developing and stunted puberty.

 

[matttyl]

Gender is not a social construct. Gender identity may be a Social construct, but gender is a physical construct.

Sex is a physical construct. Gender is separate.

And aren't the restroom sex distinct?

 

[RBM]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Just because a male is sterile doesn't make him not a male. Everyone is born with a reproductive function and will remain that way unless they have a sex change (which obviously involves a lot more than just cutting of some guy's penis).Hermaphrodites are the exception, but the doctors/parents normally choose a sex based on the dominant function and go through therapy/surgery. True hermaphrodites are extremely rare, but in those cases I imagine the individual would choose.

I don't see how hermaphrodites have anything to do with some guy wanting to use the girls HS locker. Is he a hermaphrodite?

Nope. SRYers (women with XY chromosomes) are generally born and develop without functioning reproductive systems. Lots of people are born sterile. Next.

There will always be birth defects. That doesn't change the fact that reproductive function defines gender.

Well, that doesn't, but the fact that gender is socially constructed kind of impacts the issue. And what you said is that everyone is born with reproductive function. That's obviously wrong.

You're out of your mind.

He is. I can't believe you guys are still egging him on.

 

[Henry Ford]

Gender is not a social construct. Gender identity may be a Social construct, but gender is a physical construct.

Sex is a physical construct. Gender is separate.

And aren't the restroom sex distinct?

No, they're gender distinct. That's why the pictures are a stereotypical "pants vs. dress" sign, as opposed to a penis and a ######.

 

[matttyl]

Alright, then the easy solution is to base locker room use based on the person's sex.

Okay, let's get back into this circle of discussion. How do you determine a person's sex for that?

Well, since this student still has the male reproductive organ, there you go. This situation is solved, give me the next real world (not made up) situation? The guy who lost it in the war or some bike accident - well he wouldn't have one or the either reproductive organ, so the default in this case is what you were born with that was unintentionally taken from you. The person born with both - they choose. The person born with neither - they also choose. Wouldn't the first part also encapsulate all of your xy woman (they have female reproductive organs, right, I mean a pair of your examples birthed children so they obviously do) and all of your xx males.

 

[Hang 10]

Gender is not a social construct. Gender identity may be a Social construct, but gender is a physical construct.

Sex is a physical construct. Gender is separate.

And aren't the restroom sex distinct?

No, they're gender distinct. That's why the pictures are a stereotypical "pants vs. dress" sign, as opposed to a penis and a ######.

Yeah, that's why.

 

[rockaction]

Wasn't The Sun Also Rises about a guy who got his #### half-blowed off in WWI and couldn't have sex with Lady Brett?

eta* Oh yeah, it was. And it WAS A METAPHOR

 

[Black Box]

We use gender because it's actually what we're talking about. We don't actually care if someone is genetically male or female, we just don't want to see a penis in the girls' room. But that's because we think it's icky. And that's a stupid reason to create a massive societal "rule." If someone who'd had gender reassignment surgery and had been living as a woman without a penis for 30 years got up from the table at a restaurant, kissed her husband, said she'd be right back and used the men's room, we'd think that was weird, too.

So how do we judge gender in a legal sense?

 

[Henry Ford]

Alright, then the easy solution is to base locker room use based on the person's sex.

Okay, let's get back into this circle of discussion. How do you determine a person's sex for that?

Well, since this student still has the male reproductive organ, there you go. This situation is solved, give me the next real world (not made up) situation? The guy who lost it in the war or some bike accident - well he wouldn't have one or the either reproductive organ, so the default in this case is what you were born with that was unintentionally taken from you. The person born with both - they choose. The person born with neither - they also choose. Wouldn't the first part also encapsulate all of your xy woman (they have female reproductive organs, right, I mean a pair of your examples birthed children so they obviously do) and all of your xx males.

Interestingly, not if you're talking about interior reproductive organs. XY women run the gamut of interior reproductive organs, from not having ovaries, to having severely stunted organs, to being able to birth children. If you're talking purely penis vs. ######, yes. If that's how you want to do it, penis restrooms and ###### restrooms, I think that could be done. It'd be pretty weird, but it could be done.

And if some people can choose, what's your complaint about this person choosing?

 

[Henry Ford]

We use gender because it's actually what we're talking about. We don't actually care if someone is genetically male or female, we just don't want to see a penis in the girls' room. But that's because we think it's icky. And that's a stupid reason to create a massive societal "rule." If someone who'd had gender reassignment surgery and had been living as a woman without a penis for 30 years got up from the table at a restaurant, kissed her husband, said she'd be right back and used the men's room, we'd think that was weird, too.

So how do we judge gender in a legal sense?

Honestly, we usually don't. Unless it's one of these cases. In which case, it usually comes down to the person... wait for it... living as a particular gender. Like using those restrooms and things.

 

[matttyl]

We know that having a penis isn't what makes you a boy (hermaphrodites, birth defects, etc),

See, you keep saying this and I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. In order to be a boy, you don't have to have a penis. Yeah, I'm good with that (hermaphrodites, birth defects, accidents, whatever). But having a penis makes you one.

Simply: Not all boys have penises. All who have a (operational) penis are boys. You know, think of a venn diagram.

I just think you're kidding yourself if in fact this student could impregnate a girl naturally and you don't consider them a male.

Hermaphrodites have a penis and they aren't male.

Does it work (can it naturally be used to impregnate a female)? If so, you'd be hard (no pun intended) pressed to convince me that they aren't male. Same idea with this student.

 

[Henry Ford]

It more and more just seems to come down to a discussion of "this person identifies as and lives as a woman and wants to use the women's room" vs. "well, how come he gets to choose that?"

Well, because. It's a thing. You're going to have to learn to live with that, because there's no question that she gets to choose to live as a woman and be known as a woman. Including driver's license, change on the birth certificate, the whole nine yards.

 

[Henry Ford]

We know that having a penis isn't what makes you a boy (hermaphrodites, birth defects, etc),

See, you keep saying this and I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. In order to be a boy, you don't have to have a penis. Yeah, I'm good with that (hermaphrodites, birth defects, accidents, whatever). But having a penis makes you one.

Simply: Not all boys have penises. All who have a (operational) penis are boys. You know, think of a venn diagram.

I just think you're kidding yourself if in fact this student could impregnate a girl naturally and you don't consider them a male.

Hermaphrodites have a penis and they aren't male.

Does it work (can it naturally be used to impregnate a female)? If so, you'd be hard (no pun intended) pressed to convince me that they aren't male. Same idea with this student.

Again, is the person able to impregnate a woman is a different question that does the person have a penis. And you're talking about thousands of people who have a rare genetic structure - the ability to impregnate - or not - is person-dependant, though true hermaphrodism usually results in sterility.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Its a mixed up, mumbled up, shook up world.

Take a walk on the wild side.