I’m Back! New and Improved! (3 Viewers)

[CrossEyed2]

Good to have you back Cross. I always enjoyed our discussions. 
I don’t really want to debate Covid with you, but I will ask you a simple question: hospital beds are filling up rapidly. That poses a public health risk to all of us since we need those beds open for all kinds of diseases and sickness. What do you propose we do about this if vaccines aren’t the answer? 

Thanks tim, good to “see” you again. I’m sure we’ll have some more lively discussions.

That question is a bit like an onion, lots of layers to it.

My wife has been in healthcare for 30+ years, so we have plenty of “behind the curtain” experience here. And she’s in a management role in clinical IT, so even more so at the moment.

Different parts of the country/world are in different situations, so no answer(s) will apply evenly across the board.

Much of the problem with available beds has to do with staffing shortages. For example, one of the hospitals in the health system where she works (they have 3 hospitals) has an ED that has been swamped the past few weeks. Most patients are NOT COVID, by the way. Not suggesting this is the case everywhere, but it is at this hospital. One of the reasons they are so backed up is due to staffing shortages. They have offered nurses triple time and still cannot get enough staff. Why? I’m sure there are multiple reasons so I won’t speculate. 
 

But the other thing that people don’t realize is that bed “shortages” are nothing new. It’s cyclical. She’s seen this plenty of times in her 30+ years. But the general public is only aware of it when the media makes it a story. Same with ICUs running at 90%+ capacity. The truth is that most hospitals NEED to run at that capacity on a regular basis in order to stay in business. 
 

Her, and others with whom she works, simply don’t see this as the same “crisis” as how it is being presented. She marvels at how the flu essentially disappeared the same year that a “novel virus” showed up. It’s essentially an accounting trick. They simply reclassified everything as COVID and, voila, a healthcare crisis is born. If you study the history of AIDS, they pretty much did the same thing…they took a bunch of symptoms that had been going on for years because of other issues and lumped them all into “AIDS”. 
 

Get Peter Duesberg’s book, Inventing the AIDS Virus and you’ll be blown away by the similarities between AIDS and COVID. 

 

[CrossEyed2]

Ok, this is fun

You have family in Dillon? Pretty small town.

Nope, I have zero family in Dillon. So you’ll not figure out anything about me from that clue.

 

[Osaurus]

Nope, I have zero family in Dillon. So you’ll not figure out anything about me from that clue.

How about Frisco?

 

[CrossEyed2]

How about Frisco?

Nope.

 

[Osaurus]

Nope.

Silverthorne?

 

[fatness]

By the way, if anyone is genuinely interested in understanding why I question the entire germ theory premise, a good place to start would be  to listen to Inventing the AIDS Virus by Peter Duesberg.

That book is widely discredited by the scientific community for being simple denialism.  Duesberg says that HIV does not cause AIDS.

Martin Delaney, Project Inform - May 2000 / FOCUS - May 2000

In the past year, there has been a noisy resurgence of claims that HIV does not cause AIDS and that AIDS is not contagious. Proponents of this view insist that AIDS is caused by personal behavior, notably drug abuse, or by the drugs used to treat AIDS. This view was first stated back in 1987 by Peter Duesberg, a professor of molecular biology at the University of California, Berkeley, who today is viewed as the leader of the "HIV denialist" movement.* Duesberg's claims have been debated and refuted repeatedly in scientific journals and even by a special panel assembled by the National Academy of Sciences.

https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/H/HIVAIDS/FAQ/Kritik_DistortionOfScience.html

 

[CrossEyed2]

That book is widely discredited by the scientific community for being simple denialism.  Duesberg says that HIV does not cause AIDS.

Have you actually read it and considered what Duesberg wrote, or did you simply defer to those whose lies were called out by Duesberg? 

 

[northern exposure]

The main topic of discussion may have changed, but the OP hasn't changed at all.

 

[CrossEyed2]

By the way, I don’t expect to change the minds of any “true believers” on any topic. But having gone from pastor to Bible rejector, I know that there are always folks out there who are questioning their own beliefs and need to know that there are other out there who have already walked that path. Those are usually the folks who read but don’t say a lot. You’re the folks I’m here to help make sense of your questioning. I was glad those people were around when I was slogging through my journey. 

 

[McBokonon]

And you know why? Because too many people’s income is threatened if the truth gets out. The system has to stay propped up in order for those who rely on the system to keep benefitting from the system. 

Totally. These scientists and academics are just propping up the narrative to keep the gravy train rolling, or because they simply don’t know any better. I’m glad we have truth-tellers who just want to get the word out and don’t care about the money.

Inventing the AIDS Virus by Peter Duesberg.

Paperback available at Amazon from $494.99.

 

[CrossEyed2]

Totally. These scientists and academics are just propping up the narrative to keep the gravy train rolling, or because they simply don’t know any better. I’m glad we have truth-tellers who just want to get the word out and don’t care about the money.

Paperback available at Amazon from $494.99.

Audible version just a bit more affordable at $16.99.

And Duesberg doesn’t control the secondary market for his out of print book. 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Have you lost a lot of friends after leaving the church?  Has it impacted your relationship with your wife and family?  I think I remember you have a kid too, how has that gone?

I’m much more interested in your transformation for this thread, we can do Covid talk in one of the Covid threads.

 

[Otis]

WHO??

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Yay! NewCoke

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Have you lost a lot of friends after leaving the church?  Has it impacted your relationship with your wife and family?  I think I remember you have a kid too, how has that gone?

I’m much more interested in your transformation for this thread, we can do Covid talk in one of the Covid threads.

Definitely this.  People are dogpiling CE over trivial stuff, when this other stuff is way more interesting.

 

[Jayrok]

Definitely this.  People are dogpiling CE over trivial stuff, when this other stuff is way more interesting.

Agree. I'm not interested in covid conspiracies or german string theory. His 180 from the Pastorate is more interesting. Seems he had a hard fall. Hoping he didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Welcome back 

 

[rockaction]

It’s all the same credulity, just redefined and updated. Same ####, different day.

 

[mr. furley]

Interesting. I guess that means LarryBoy isn’t around any more either.

RIP Larrysboy

 

[CrossEyed2]

WHO??

 

[CrossEyed2]

Have you lost a lot of friends after leaving the church?  Has it impacted your relationship with your wife and family?  I think I remember you have a kid too, how has that gone?

I’m much more interested in your transformation for this thread, we can do Covid talk in one of the Covid threads.

Sure thing. I’m happy to talk about anything.

Honestly, I lost most of the people who I thought were my friends. They pretty much turned their backs on me. Which tells me that most people only like you if they think you are “one of them”.

Fortunately my wife and I have walked this journey side by side. If anything, she entertained some of the questions before I ever did. But once I was able to show why the Bible was full of inconsistencies and contradictions, it just confirmed her suspicions. I can’t tell you how fortunate I feel that we are on the same page. As for children, they were still pretty young when we stopped going to church (they’re 10 and 12 now) so while they missed it a little, it wasn’t a huge transition for them. 
 

As for @Jayrok concern, I didn’t really have a fall at all from the pastorate. I left the pastorate to join a parachurch ministry whose focus was ministry to men. It was during that time that I started exploring more of my questions and discovered the things that led me away from the Bible and Christianity. So it wasn’t an issue with people, it was confronting the teachings and comparing OT with NT and both with other ancient religious teachings that made me realize that Christianity was merely another invention of men designed to try to answer the unanswerable questions and eventually devolved into a way for the upper echelon to control the masses. 
 

I often miss the social aspects of church and the relationships that we lost. But we simply couldn’t keep going for those reasons once we realized that the core teachings were basically nonsense. Don’t get me wrong, there are some good morality lessons to be learned in the Bible. But there’s so much other BS taught there that I couldn’t keep pretending that it was the “word of God”. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

It’s this, but then with most conspiratorial trains of thought you also have to believe that the overwhelming number of experts who DID go through these rigorous educational tracks are also liars, cheaters, and all in on the same scams.

Or just really gullible.

 

[CrossEyed2]

Or just really gullible.

Or just so bought into the system that they spend all of their time looking to confirm their beliefs and no time trying to genuinely challenge them. That was me with Christianity for almost 20 years. People WANT to believe that their ideas are true. Changing your beliefs is really hard. Relationships and sometimes income or self-worth can be closely tied to those beliefs. It’s not easy to walk away from them. Trust me, I’ve walked that path. It sucked. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

It is interesting you mentioned conspiracy theories. 

He recommended a book to read in one of his posts and when I looked it up, I saw that the book had been pretty disavowed in the scientific community for being full of conspiracy theories.

Refuting the existence/cause of AIDS is a really, really bad conspiracy theory, as it prevents people from taking medications that convert it from a death sentence to manageable disease.

 

[AAABatteries]

I’m not sure I understand- are you saying Covid doesn’t exist or it does exist but that’s not what is making people sick and killing them?

Welcome back.

 

[CrossEyed2]

Refuting the existence/cause of AIDS is a really, really bad conspiracy theory, as it prevents people from taking medications that convert it from a death sentence to manageable disease.

Read/listen to Duesberg’s book and what Nobel Prize winning scientist Kary Mullis discovered when he started asking the question of who discovered the cause of AIDS, then get back to me on what is more dangerous. 

 

[Desert_Power]

Nope, I have zero family in Dillon. So you’ll not figure out anything about me from that clue.

, just seemed random. All I know about it is it is near South of the Border and they usually have a really good HS football team. Take care.

 

[CrossEyed2]

I’m not sure I understand- are you saying Covid doesn’t exist or it does exist but that’s not what is making people sick and killing them?

Welcome back.

People are certainly getting sick and dying. Nobody would deny that. The question is, what is causing their illness? 
 

The truth is that the supposed virus being blamed for this has never been cultured from a sick person, isolated, and shown to be able to cause any of the symptoms it is being said to cause. In fact, it’s never even been isolated at all. 
 

I wish I could share just the 5 minute clip that I have that is very concise about the process that they used to supposedly isolate this virus, but I don’t have that ability here. But if you just watch this video from about the 3 minute mark until about the 8 minute mark you’ll see what I’m talking about. 

 

[rockaction]

I can assure you your improvement is debatable and likely the product of a conspiracy of your own mind. 

 

[Northern Voice]

People are certainly getting sick and dying. Nobody would deny that. The question is, what is causing their illness? 
 

The truth is that the supposed virus being blamed for this has never been cultured from a sick person, isolated, and shown to be able to cause any of the symptoms it is being said to cause. In fact, it’s never even been isolated at all. 
 

There were 522, 368 excess deaths in the United States last year, what do you suppose accounts for that if not "the supposed virus"

 

[Terminalxylem]

Great questions.

First, I have no issues with Koch’s postulates. The problem is that science doesn’t even follow Koch’s postulates. They didn’t follow them for HIV/AIDS, they didn’t follow them for SARS-COV/COVID, and they didn’t follow them for most other “infectious diseases”. If you don’t believe me, look at the studies yourself. Not just the headlines, look at the methodology. They never isolated HIV or SARS from a sick patient. They’ve completely changed the definition of “isolate”. The purported isolate is always some witches brew that contains a dozen other things other than the virus. Stefan Lanka reproduced the exact same process that the CDC used to “prove” SARS-COV2 was the case of disease and got the exact same results by using everything EXCEPT the supposed virus.

There are a variety of things that cause what we refer to as disease…toxins, stress, malnutrition, resonance, and probably a few other things. But none of it is “infectious” in the way that we’ve been taught about infection. If you put a bunch of women together in the same living environment, their cycles will synchronize. That’s not infection, it’s resonance. There are lots of examples in nature of resonance or some other type of communication process that causes living things to “sync” with other living things. But those things aren’t “infection” or “contagion”. 

Virologists acknowledge that “viruses” are indistinguishable from exosomes. Exosomes are the result of cellular breakdown when tissue is dead or dying. So I (and there are other doctors/scientists who believe this) believe that what scientists are seeing in their electron microscopes are exosomes present as a result of disease, not there because they are causing disease. The same way you find bacteria, fungus and other things present when you find a dead tree or animal in the woods. They didn’t cause the deaths, they are there to clean up the result of the death. They are nature’s garbage men.

As for refusing treatment, it would depend on the bacterial load. Certain bacteria produce enough toxins when present in large enough numbers that the toxicity can kill you. So there are times that you do need to reduce the amount of bacteria present. But it ultimately isn’t the bacteria that’s the problem, it’s the toxicity.

What would cause me to believe in germ theory? Evidence that it’s true. And I simply don’t see that evidence right now. The evidence I see points to the terrain being the cause of disease. Eliminate the toxins, reduce the stress, improve the nutrition, and you’ll relieve the disease. 
 

By the way, do you know what they do to tissue samples in order to prove that a “virus” is the cause of disease? They starve and poison it. Look at the experiments for yourself. 
 

Again, great questions, thanks for actually engaging in a discussion. I don’t expect to change everyone’s mind but I appreciate anyone who is at least interested in hearing an alternative theory.

I think you're assuming a lot about my familiarity with these topics, and capacity for critical thought. Suffice it to say, I disagree with a lot of what you've said. While illness is certainly multifactorial, I don't think your mind is open to "infectious diseases" as a possibility, or you'd have saved bandwidth on the hate quotes.

But if you don't think AIDS is infectious, would you accept transfusion from an HIV infected individual? Or spend time in room full of covid patients sans PPE (assuming you're unvaccinated)? 

 

[bostonfred]

I am happy for you that you've critically examined your religion and decided on something that makes you happier.  

That doesn't make my religious belief wrong, or anyone else's.  That's a personal journey and it's a really important one for a lot of people. I have plenty of atheist friends who think I'm crazy for believing in God while my religious friends would at best call me agnostic. It's a complicated topic.

Religious beliefs are similar to political beliefs.  Forget about the fact that religious groups commonly support the same political views.  If you believe taxes are too high and i believe they're too low and we decrease taxes and ther economy improves I'll say it improved because of something else while you credit the tax cuts and vice versa.  The Clinton and Bush administrations are great examples of how people can use economic data to support their world views.  It's easy to build a narrative that blames Democrats or Republicans for the bass and credits either for the good.  And it's relatively difficult to prove which is true or if either has anything to do with it.  Maybe the dot com bubble was inevitable and the real estate bubble too. We don't get to test the same conditions again and again to vigorously prove anything.

It concerns me thar you've extrapolated this to germ theory.  Science is more rigorous than politics and religion. Questioning science is literally the definition of science as you mentioned, but you're quoting a questioner while ignoring the people whoop question the questioner.

Your credentials for questioning things are, in a nutshell,  that you've been duped before.  That's something i can respect - you've learned from experience.  But the next step is learning how to distinguish between two dissenting opinions, and you haven't explained how you do that.  

I totally hear the questions you have about the chicken and egg of pathogens. Maybe you get gerns and get sick, or maybe you get sick then get germs.  Those are both valid hypotheses.  

Yoo might then test the hypothesis that germs precede illness.  It's been tested a lot, believe it or not.  But... maybe you think the tests are wrong.  Because they've always seen the sick patient, then the so called germs show up. That's actually a really valid hypothesis and believe it or not i believe that anyone who suggests otherwise is a kook. 

The thing is, it's not a new hypothesis.  And it has been tested.  And those test results are largely available.  That's exactly what peer review is for - to make sure we don't get too comfortable in our assumptions. 

The question i have for you is, note that you seem to believe you've been duped before, what have you learned that will help you keep from being duped again?  If you see someone asking questions, do you assume they're right?  Do you believe that every questioner is right?  Or only certain ones?

If the scientific community tests these hypotheses and says ok, germs definitely precede the virus and not ther other way around, do you still believe otherwise?  Do you defer to the nonconformist because you want to believe in non conformity?  Or do you wait for the non conformist to generate peer reviewed studies that support their belief?

If you're trying to live an unduped life, I'd recommend that last option.  I'm not sure if you are ready to hear this but you sound like you've been duped again. 

 

[rockaction]

This is nonsense and deserves no real response. This is a fishing trip with grenades. Don’t waste your time or board capital. 

 

[CrossEyed2]

There were 522, 368 excess deaths in the United States last year, what do you suppose accounts for that if not "the supposed virus"

So just because there are excess deaths we’re supposed to accept that it was caused by an alleged virus which has never been isolated, purified and shown to cause illness? That’s not scientific proof, that’s merely an epidemiological observation. Do you realize how many things cause death? Do you know that one of the biggest causes of death is pharmaceuticals? And I’m not even talking about overdoses or incorrect usage, just simply using pharmaceuticals. Then there’s medical errors. Do you know how many people die every year from medical errors?  
 

That’s the best you can do for “proof” of viral causation? 

 

[gianmarco]

People are certainly getting sick and dying. Nobody would deny that. The question is, what is causing their illness? 
 

The truth is that the supposed virus being blamed for this has never been cultured from a sick person, isolated, and shown to be able to cause any of the symptoms it is being said to cause. In fact, it’s never even been isolated at all. 
 

I wish I could share just the 5 minute clip that I have that is very concise about the process that they used to supposedly isolate this virus, but I don’t have that ability here. But if you just watch this video from about the 3 minute mark until about the 8 minute mark you’ll see what I’m talking about. 

The video you linked has been debunked

It's garbage. And until you've actually gone into a laboratory and seen and done the work that is being done, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, what you don't know, nor how to even evaluate how wrong that video you linked is.

 

[CrossEyed2]

This is nonsense and deserves no real response. This is a fishing trip with grenades. Don’t waste your time or board capital. 

So why are you still here? Your other post made it clear that you are tired of “us”. So why engage my post? I’m not engaging in yours. 

 

[CrossEyed2]

The video you linked has been debunked

It's garbage. And until you've actually gone into a laboratory and seen and done the work that is being done, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, what you don't know, nor how to even evaluate how wrong that video you linked is.

Ah, so you work in a lab? That would explain your insistence that the science couldn’t possibly be wrong. It’s hard to get a man to understand something when his paycheck relies on him not understanding. I know, I’ve been there. 
 

And those articles in your fact checking article do not show actual isolation of the virus. They found fragments and pieced them together using computer models. You can post all the “fact-checking” articles you’d like, it doesn’t change the facts. The virus has never been cultured, isolated, and purified. Never. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

Or just so bought into the system that they spend all of their time looking to confirm their beliefs and no time trying to genuinely challenge them. That was me with Christianity for almost 20 years. People WANT to believe that their ideas are true. Changing your beliefs is really hard. Relationships and sometimes income or self-worth can be closely tied to those beliefs. It’s not easy to walk away from them. Trust me, I’ve walked that path. It sucked. 

Big difference between religious faith, where you are told to believe things dogmatically, and the scientific method, where you seek evidence to confirm or refute hypotheses.

While we're all vulnerable to bias and miscalculation, it's pretty naive (at best) to suggest "mainstream" scientists aren't able/willing to think critically.

 

[rockaction]

So why are you still here? Your other post made it clear that you are tired of “us”. So why engage my post? I’m not engaging in yours. 

I'm trying to save my friends time, energy, and not getting suspended.

I couldn't care less about you or your state of mind. I hate watching good people suffer foolishness.

 

[AAABatteries]

People are certainly getting sick and dying. Nobody would deny that. The question is, what is causing their illness? 
 

The truth is that the supposed virus being blamed for this has never been cultured from a sick person, isolated, and shown to be able to cause any of the symptoms it is being said to cause. In fact, it’s never even been isolated at all. 
 

I wish I could share just the 5 minute clip that I have that is very concise about the process that they used to supposedly isolate this virus, but I don’t have that ability here. But if you just watch this video from about the 3 minute mark until about the 8 minute mark you’ll see what I’m talking about. 

So your contention is what then?  What are people getting sick with and dying from?

And how exactly is every country on earth and thousands of doctors wrong but no one has exposed this?  

 

[bostonfred]

Ah, so you work in a lab? That would explain your insistence that the science couldn’t possibly be wrong. It’s hard to get a man to understand something when his paycheck relies on him not understanding. I know, I’ve been there. 
 

Valid:  Powerful people have duped me before, you might be getting duped 

Not valid: powerful people have duped me before, therefore you are getting duped now and i am not

Do you see the difference? 

 

[Uwe Blab]

It’s cool to see old faces on a board where a lot of folks have come and gone.

That said Crosseyed always had a very high opinion of himself and often wildly overestimated his own ability, particularly on complicated subjects.  I see not a whole lot has changed in his world despite the new and “improved” claim and a fresh coat of paint here and there.  
 

 

[CrossEyed2]

So your contention is what then?  What are people getting sick with and dying from?

And how exactly is every country on earth and thousands of doctors wrong but no one has exposed this?  

Nobody has exposed this? People are screaming it from the rooftops, but the media, social media, and government agencies either censor them, ridicule them, or defund them. 

 

[belljr]

You guys must be bored tonight

 

[prosopis]

I’m out of organized religion completely. Haven’t stepped foot in a church in about 5 years. Long story short, once I got out of ministry I felt free to ask questions that I couldn’t ask before. And the more answers I found, the more the Bible and organized religion crumbled for me. It was more of no longer being able to believe than no longer wanting to believe. 
 

It’s been a very freeing experience. Although I did have to battle through a lot of anger the first couple of years. 
 

Now I’m learning a lot more about meditation and scientific explanations of life. Just not mainstream “science”, which is just as corrupt as organized religion. Don’t even get me started on this COVID ridiculousness.

huh

 

[AAABatteries]

Nobody has exposed this? People are screaming it from the rooftops, but the media, social media, and government agencies either censor them, ridicule them, or defund them. 

And all of them are censoring them because….?

We can’t get media and governments to agree on anything but somehow they’ve all aligned to censor the idea that Covid isn’t real?

   

 

[CrossEyed2]

Valid:  Powerful people have duped me before, you might be getting duped 

Not valid: powerful people have duped me before, therefore you are getting duped now and i am not

Do you see the difference? 

I am the last person who would ever say that I’m incapable of being duped. The most foundational beliefs that I had crumbled underneath me. So I’ll never think that I can’t be wrong…about anything. But that doesn’t mean that you stop having opinions and beliefs about everything. 

 

[AAABatteries]

I have to say the “I denounced Jesus AND germ theory” isn’t something you hear every day.  Fascinating.

 

[belljr]

And all of them are censoring them because….?

We can’t get media and governments to agree on anything but somehow they’ve all aligned to censor the idea that Covid isn’t real?

   

Buzz Aldrin shot JFK

 

[CrossEyed2]

And all of them are censoring them because….?

We can’t get media and governments to agree on anything but somehow they’ve all aligned to censor the idea that Covid isn’t real?

   

Follow the money. What industry is the number one lobbyist as well as the largest media advertiser? What industry benefits most from the current situation?