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I remember article from years ago (1 Viewer)

AnonymousBob

Footballguy
There was the argument smaller rb's generally took a couple seasons to "get it" before they started performing very well in the NFL (I recall Tiki was one of the many names cited) but larger guys generally were able to perform at a high level right off the bat.

First off, does anyone else ever remember reading anything such as that?

 
There was the argument smaller rb's generally took a couple seasons to "get it" before they started performing very well in the NFL (I recall Tiki was one of the many names cited) but larger guys generally were able to perform at a high level right off the bat.First off, does anyone else ever remember reading anything such as that?
I dont remember anything about that but I think that would definitely be an interesting read.
 
There was the argument smaller rb's generally took a couple seasons to "get it" before they started performing very well in the NFL (I recall Tiki was one of the many names cited) but larger guys generally were able to perform at a high level right off the bat.First off, does anyone else ever remember reading anything such as that?
This actually wouldn't be too difficult to examine. I can do this for you.
 
There was the argument smaller rb's generally took a couple seasons to "get it" before they started performing very well in the NFL (I recall Tiki was one of the many names cited) but larger guys generally were able to perform at a high level right off the bat.First off, does anyone else ever remember reading anything such as that?
This actually wouldn't be too difficult to examine. I can do this for you.
That'd work. :sadbanana: :no: :thumbup:
 
Yes, there was an article about 3 years ago. It compared the weights of the rookie backs and how well they would do in their first year. I recall the conclusion being: 210-215-?220 lbs. had a better chance of being productive than a back of 220-230 lbs.

 
I looked at all RBs drafted in the first three rounds from '95 to '07, that at least took a snap in the NFL (Maurice Clarett and Kenny Irons> sorry). I counted the rookie year for the player as their first year where they took a snap (Ki-Jana Carter, McGahee, Foster, Shelton, Droughns, Bryson and Chapman were thus considered rookies a year after their peers in the draft).

...

Okay, my time is limited, so more data and less explanation. I looked at 7 variables (I'll explain why later) of production: Adjusted Yards over 3.0, Rushing yards/game, total yards per game, FP/G, games, games started and rushes. I looked at two pairs of input variables -- draft position and weight, and draft position and BMI.

Draft Position and Weight:

AY3.0: R2 of 0.13; weight variable is -0.70 (meaning you'd predict .7 fewer AY3.0 for every pound of weight); that's not large at all, and it's not even close to statistically significant.

Rush Y/G: R2 of 0.22; weight variable is -0.04; P value not close to significant

Tot Y/G: R2 of 0.24; weight variable is -0.16; P value not significant.

FP/G: R2 of 0.21; weight variable is -0.01; not significant.

G: R2 of 0.05; weight variable is -0.03; not significant.

GS: R2 of 0.19; weight variable is 0.01; not significant.

Rsh: R2 of 0.23; weight variable is -0.21; p value not significant.

Quick summary: Weight doesn't look at all relevant to rookie success, at least once you factor in draft position.

BMI and Draft value again:

AY3.0: R2 of 0.15; BMI -17.1; P value is significant at the 5% level. This is pretty interesting.

RYPG: R2 of 0.22; BMI is -1.28; P value not significant.

TYPG: R2 of 0.25; BMI is -2.52; P value significant at the 10% level.

FP/G: R2 of 0.22; BMI is -0.313; P value - 17% (not significant, but close)

G: R2 of 0.04; BMI is -0.17; not significant.

GS: R2 of 0.19; BMI is -0.05; not significant.

Rushes: R2 of 0.24; BMI is -4.45; not significant.

Couple of thoughts:

1) This only looks at rookies. And all rookies. This is distinct from the question of whether backs that are good eventually start out differently based on BMI.

2) To the extent that the "goodness" of BMI is nonlinear, this study doesn't answer that question. Some contain, and they're probably right, that there's a sweet spot of BMI between about 28 and 32, IIRC. So a 34 BMI and a 26 BMI are both "bad". This can be examined when I get home in a few hours, along with Q1 (and a full explanation of what half this post actually says).

 
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I looked at all RBs drafted in the first three rounds from '95 to '07, that at least took a snap in the NFL (Maurice Clarett and Kenny Irons> sorry). I counted the rookie year for the player as their first year where they took a snap (Ki-Jana Carter, McGahee, Foster, Shelton, Droughns, Bryson and Chapman were thus considered rookies a year after their peers in the draft).

...

Okay, my time is limited, so more data and less explanation. I looked at 7 variables (I'll explain why later) of production: Adjusted Yards over 3.0, Rushing yards/game, total yards per game, FP/G, games, games started and rushes. I looked at two pairs of input variables -- draft position and weight, and draft position and BMI.

Draft Position and Weight:

AY3.0: R2 of 0.13; weight variable is -0.70 (meaning you'd predict .7 fewer AY3.0 for every pound of weight); that's not large at all, and it's not even close to statistically significant.

Rush Y/G: R2 of 0.22; weight variable is -0.04; P value not close to significant

Tot Y/G: R2 of 0.24; weight variable is -0.16; P value not significant.

FP/G: R2 of 0.21; weight variable is -0.01; not significant.

G: R2 of 0.05; weight variable is -0.03; not significant.

GS: R2 of 0.19; weight variable is 0.01; not significant.

Rsh: R2 of 0.23; weight variable is -0.21; p value not significant.

Quick summary: Weight doesn't look at all relevant to rookie success, at least once you factor in draft position.

BMI and Draft value again:

AY3.0: R2 of 0.15; BMI -17.1; P value is significant at the 5% level. This is pretty interesting.

RYPG: R2 of 0.22; BMI is -1.28; P value not significant.

TYPG: R2 of 0.25; BMI is -2.52; P value significant at the 10% level.

FP/G: R2 of 0.22; BMI is -0.313; P value - 17% (not significant, but close)

G: R2 of 0.04; BMI is -0.17; not significant.

GS: R2 of 0.19; BMI is -0.05; not significant.

Rushes: R2 of 0.24; BMI is -4.45; not significant.

Couple of thoughts:

1) This only looks at rookies. And all rookies. This is distinct from the question of whether backs that are good eventually start out differently based on BMI.

2) To the extent that the "goodness" of BMI is nonlinear, this study doesn't answer that question. Some contain, and they're probably right, that there's a sweet spot of BMI between about 28 and 32, IIRC. So a 34 BMI and a 26 BMI are both "bad". This can be examined when I get home in a few hours, along with Q1 (and a full explanation of what half this post actually says).
Let me actually explain that post now.So I looked at highly drafted rookies the past decade or so, and saw how they did their rookie seasons. Obviously higher draft picks are going to outperform lower draft picks, on average, but the question is do bigger backs outperform smaller backs early on, after accounting for draft position. To do this, we need to define "bigger" and "outperform", since neither are clear.

We can perform a regression analysis to isolate "big" from draft position when judging performance. I think "big" can be defined using either weight or Body Mass Index, which measures weight as a function of height. Let's use weight first.

There are 7 different ways I looked at measuring performance. Games, games started, and rushes are good raw measures of performance and value, but they don't measure ability. Rushing yards per game, fantasy points per game, and total yards per game are really good measures of ability. My favorite stat mixes both volume (like games or rushes) and performance (like FP/G) -- adjusted yards over 3.0. It's simply calculated by taking a player's rushing yards, adding 10 yards for every rushing TD, and subtracting three yards for every carry. So a player that rushes for 1,000 yards and 10 TDs on 300 carries will have 200 adjusted yards over 3.0, just like a player with 500 rushing yards and 0 TDs on 100 carries. We could argue all day which player is more valuable or more talented, but I think it can be reasonably argued that their equivalent. Anyway, those are the seven stats I used.

Looking at weight and those seven factors, absolutely none of them were correlated with weight. So basically, a 230 lb RB drafted with the 19th pick shouldn't be projected to play any differently as a rookie, than a 210 lb RB drafted with the 19th pick. The closest variable to being statistically significant was Games and Weight, where maybe a player for every extra 20 pounds can be expected to miss half a game.

It's not surprising that the results are all insignificant, because weight isn't a great proxy for "bigness". I think BMI is a much better one.

BMI is statistically significantly correlated with rookie production, although all of my BMI comments have a big caveat discussed at the end. But for every additional one point in BMI, you can expect a RB to have about 17 fewer adjusted rushing yards over 3.0. That's not practically worth much, but between someone like Jamal Lewis (BMI of 33.5) and Reggie Bush (BMI of 27.1) we might expect (assuming they were the same draft position) about 109 more adjusted yards for Bush. And that's not significant, although it's not incredibly valuable, either.

BMI wasn't correlated with rushing yards per game, although it is arguably correlated with total yards per game. This may simply be because smaller, thinner, faster RBs are better receivers than big RBs, and I'm not sure if this has anything to do with being a rookie or not and smaller RBs adjusting to the game quicker.

FP/G and BMI may be correlated; the results weren't statistically significant, but they were close. Using Bush/Lewis again, we might expect Bush to average 2 more FP/G than Lewis, assuming the same draft position. There's a decent change that's just noise in the data, but it does make one thing clear: it's unlikely that the heavy RBs are better early on than light RBs. They're probably a push, or thin RBs are slightly better.

G, GS and rushes weren't connected with BMI.

So in conclusion, it looks like the ability stats as opposed to the compiling stats, are connected with size. And to the extent that there's a connection with size and rookie RBs, lighter is better. The thing with BMI, though, is that there's probably a sweet spot in the middle. I was rushing earlier, but I should have accounted for that. I'll do that soon.

 
Okay, I looked at BMI and the 7 performance variables again. This time, any RB's BMI that was outside of the 29-32 range was given an adjusted BMI rating of the difference between their actual BMI and either 29 or 32; anyone within the range was given a 0. So Reggie Bush (BMI of 27.1) has an adjusted BMI of 1.9; Ron Dayne (BMI 35.9) has an adjusted BMI of 3.9; LaDainian Tomlins (BMI 31.7) has an adjusted BMI of 0.

How does adjusted BMI predict rookie performance, after accounting for draft position? It doesn't correlate with Adjusted Yards over 3.0, or rushing yards per game, or total yards per game, or FP/G, or games, or rushes. BUT, it does correlate with games started. Basically, for every 1 point of BMI away from the 29-32 range, you'd predict 1.1 fewer starts (significant at the 10% level). That's pretty interesting, especially considering it doesn't correlate with games. But there might be something there. Of course, none of the other variables correlated with adjusted BMI, so maybe there isn't.

 
Just curious but can you give a number of players below 28 in BMI, 29-32, and 33+?

I'm curious to see if it's merely that most RBs weigh in that range, which could be expected* and thus there's a larger dataset supporting the correlation to GS in comparing to the BMI of a smaller set.

* Expected meaning that there's a 'rule of thumb' amongst fans that ideal RB range seems to be 5'9"-6'2" and a weight of 195-230.

 
Just curious but can you give a number of players below 28 in BMI, 29-32, and 33+?I'm curious to see if it's merely that most RBs weigh in that range, which could be expected* and thus there's a larger dataset supporting the correlation to GS in comparing to the BMI of a smaller set.* Expected meaning that there's a 'rule of thumb' amongst fans that ideal RB range seems to be 5'9"-6'2" and a weight of 195-230.
I've got 126 RBs drafted Rounds 1-4 in the last eleven years. I'm missing information on six of them, for a total of 120 RBs. Using weights as of the COMBINE, there are:18 RBs over 32.022 RBs under 29.080 RBs between 29.0 and 32.0
 
DawnBTVS said:
Just curious but can you give a number of players below 28 in BMI, 29-32, and 33+?I'm curious to see if it's merely that most RBs weigh in that range, which could be expected* and thus there's a larger dataset supporting the correlation to GS in comparing to the BMI of a smaller set.* Expected meaning that there's a 'rule of thumb' amongst fans that ideal RB range seems to be 5'9"-6'2" and a weight of 195-230.
18 over 32, 70 from 29.00 to 31.99, and 22 under 29.00.
 
DawnBTVS said:
Just curious but can you give a number of players below 28 in BMI, 29-32, and 33+?I'm curious to see if it's merely that most RBs weigh in that range, which could be expected* and thus there's a larger dataset supporting the correlation to GS in comparing to the BMI of a smaller set.* Expected meaning that there's a 'rule of thumb' amongst fans that ideal RB range seems to be 5'9"-6'2" and a weight of 195-230.
18 over 32, 70 from 29.00 to 31.99, and 22 under 29.00.
Thanks (and to wdcrob).16% over 32.64% 'ideal' 29-32.20% under 29.Given that information, do you think that there is a deeper way of analyzing this?I guess I'm kind of curious how "deep" this can be looked at.I'd be curious when you look at the sweet spot later, if there's a possibility of also analyzing draft position? Granted, there is probably nil connection between draft position and BMI and FP/G but I'm curious if there is any semblance of an ideal RB like was being discussed in wdcrob's other RB thread.Say a Round 1-2 player picked with a BMI of 29-32 is usually a better bet than a Round 2 player at 34 or something (may be in the case or not).Would also be interesting to see if the big players with success are drafted early or later, same with the smaller backs.
 
DawnBTVS said:
Just curious but can you give a number of players below 28 in BMI, 29-32, and 33+?I'm curious to see if it's merely that most RBs weigh in that range, which could be expected* and thus there's a larger dataset supporting the correlation to GS in comparing to the BMI of a smaller set.* Expected meaning that there's a 'rule of thumb' amongst fans that ideal RB range seems to be 5'9"-6'2" and a weight of 195-230.
18 over 32, 70 from 29.00 to 31.99, and 22 under 29.00.
Thanks (and to wdcrob).16% over 32.64% 'ideal' 29-32.20% under 29.Given that information, do you think that there is a deeper way of analyzing this?I guess I'm kind of curious how "deep" this can be looked at.I'd be curious when you look at the sweet spot later, if there's a possibility of also analyzing draft position? Granted, there is probably nil connection between draft position and BMI and FP/G but I'm curious if there is any semblance of an ideal RB like was being discussed in wdcrob's other RB thread.Say a Round 1-2 player picked with a BMI of 29-32 is usually a better bet than a Round 2 player at 34 or something (may be in the case or not).Would also be interesting to see if the big players with success are drafted early or later, same with the smaller backs.
I've looked at this for a long time, and as far as I can tell there's no direct connection between what would be considered the normal range of BMIs and RB performance or draft position. BMI pops up as relevant in a couple places, but it's indirect and still sort of fuzzy.
 
DawnBTVS said:
Just curious but can you give a number of players below 28 in BMI, 29-32, and 33+?I'm curious to see if it's merely that most RBs weigh in that range, which could be expected* and thus there's a larger dataset supporting the correlation to GS in comparing to the BMI of a smaller set.* Expected meaning that there's a 'rule of thumb' amongst fans that ideal RB range seems to be 5'9"-6'2" and a weight of 195-230.
18 over 32, 70 from 29.00 to 31.99, and 22 under 29.00.
Thanks (and to wdcrob).16% over 32.64% 'ideal' 29-32.20% under 29.Given that information, do you think that there is a deeper way of analyzing this?I guess I'm kind of curious how "deep" this can be looked at.I'd be curious when you look at the sweet spot later, if there's a possibility of also analyzing draft position? Granted, there is probably nil connection between draft position and BMI and FP/G but I'm curious if there is any semblance of an ideal RB like was being discussed in wdcrob's other RB thread.Say a Round 1-2 player picked with a BMI of 29-32 is usually a better bet than a Round 2 player at 34 or something (may be in the case or not).Would also be interesting to see if the big players with success are drafted early or later, same with the smaller backs.
I've looked at this for a long time, and as far as I can tell there's no direct connection between what would be considered the normal range of BMIs and RB performance or draft position. BMI pops up as relevant in a couple places, but it's indirect and still sort of fuzzy.
I think BMI is important before the draft, but for the most part BMI has little usefulness I think after the draft.BMI is already incorporated into draft position. So it's just double counting, for the most part, to look at BMI once you know draft position.I think the only potential caveat is BMI might have some connection with injuries, but I'm a little skeptical of that until I see some proof.
 

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