I think McNabb has earned a spot in the Hall of Fame (1 Viewer)

[Banger]

McNabb is a good QB but no way worthy of HOF.

Watching the Eagles the other day though I thought that Dawkins might be a HOF'er. He's been real good a LOOONG time....

 

[Jason Wood]

McNabb is a good QB but no way worthy of HOF. Watching the Eagles the other day though I thought that Dawkins might be a HOF'er. He's been real good a LOOONG time....

Dawkins is certainly a Hall of Fame caliber safety in my eyes, but I wonder if he'll ever get in. I think he, like many players, needs a SB ring to give him a fighting chance. There are a whopping nine (9) safeties [two of which played plenty of corner, too] in the Hall:Jack Christiansen (S) 1951-1958Ken Houston (S) 1967-1980Paul Krause (S) 1964-1979 Yale Lary (S) 1952-1953, 1956-1964Ronnie Lott (CB-S) 1981-1994Mel Renfro (S-CB) 1964-1977Emlen Tunnell (S) 1948-1961Larry Wilson (S) 1960-1972Willie Wood (S) 1960-1971When you consider Rod Woodson, John Lynch, Darren Woodson, Rodney Harrison and then the current trio of Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu and Bob Sanders, some very good and very deserving safeties are going to be left out of Canton.

 

[JuniorNB]

McNabb is a good QB but no way worthy of HOF. Watching the Eagles the other day though I thought that Dawkins might be a HOF'er. He's been real good a LOOONG time....

Dawkins is certainly a Hall of Fame caliber safety in my eyes, but I wonder if he'll ever get in. I think he, like many players, needs a SB ring to give him a fighting chance. There are a whopping nine (9) safeties [two of which played plenty of corner, too] in the Hall:Jack Christiansen (S) 1951-1958Ken Houston (S) 1967-1980Paul Krause (S) 1964-1979 Yale Lary (S) 1952-1953, 1956-1964Ronnie Lott (CB-S) 1981-1994Mel Renfro (S-CB) 1964-1977Emlen Tunnell (S) 1948-1961Larry Wilson (S) 1960-1972Willie Wood (S) 1960-1971When you consider Rod Woodson, John Lynch, Darren Woodson, Rodney Harrison and then the current trio of Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu and Bob Sanders, some very good and very deserving safeties are going to be left out of Canton.

Hmmm. Some good safeties there. I think the Woodson's have a shot. Lynch and Harrison were heavy hitters, but I don't think either were HOP worthy. Especially Harrison, who had as much of a reputation as being dirty as he did for being good.Reed and Polamula are both getting in (assuming they don't get injured and play the years that they should). Sanders really needs to put a few healthy years together. He's the Terrell Davis of safeties.

 

[David Yudkin]

McNabb is a good QB but no way worthy of HOF. Watching the Eagles the other day though I thought that Dawkins might be a HOF'er. He's been real good a LOOONG time....

Dawkins is certainly a Hall of Fame caliber safety in my eyes, but I wonder if he'll ever get in. I think he, like many players, needs a SB ring to give him a fighting chance. There are a whopping nine (9) safeties [two of which played plenty of corner, too] in the Hall:Jack Christiansen (S) 1951-1958Ken Houston (S) 1967-1980Paul Krause (S) 1964-1979 Yale Lary (S) 1952-1953, 1956-1964Ronnie Lott (CB-S) 1981-1994Mel Renfro (S-CB) 1964-1977Emlen Tunnell (S) 1948-1961Larry Wilson (S) 1960-1972Willie Wood (S) 1960-1971When you consider Rod Woodson, John Lynch, Darren Woodson, Rodney Harrison and then the current trio of Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu and Bob Sanders, some very good and very deserving safeties are going to be left out of Canton.

Hmmm. Some good safeties there. I think the Woodson's have a shot. Lynch and Harrison were heavy hitters, but I don't think either were HOP worthy. Especially Harrison, who had as much of a reputation as being dirty as he did for being good.Reed and Polamula are both getting in (assuming they don't get injured and play the years that they should). Sanders really needs to put a few healthy years together. He's the Terrell Davis of safeties.

Given that only one player on the HOF safeties list played past 1980, I'm guessing there are no locks for the HOF now or from recent seasons. You would think that they will start electing more, but that position at this point doesn't appear to be a big priority.

 

[Banger]

McNabb is a good QB but no way worthy of HOF. Watching the Eagles the other day though I thought that Dawkins might be a HOF'er. He's been real good a LOOONG time....

Dawkins is certainly a Hall of Fame caliber safety in my eyes, but I wonder if he'll ever get in. I think he, like many players, needs a SB ring to give him a fighting chance. There are a whopping nine (9) safeties [two of which played plenty of corner, too] in the Hall:Jack Christiansen (S) 1951-1958Ken Houston (S) 1967-1980Paul Krause (S) 1964-1979 Yale Lary (S) 1952-1953, 1956-1964Ronnie Lott (CB-S) 1981-1994Mel Renfro (S-CB) 1964-1977Emlen Tunnell (S) 1948-1961Larry Wilson (S) 1960-1972Willie Wood (S) 1960-1971When you consider Rod Woodson, John Lynch, Darren Woodson, Rodney Harrison and then the current trio of Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu and Bob Sanders, some very good and very deserving safeties are going to be left out of Canton.

Hmmm. Some good safeties there. I think the Woodson's have a shot. Lynch and Harrison were heavy hitters, but I don't think either were HOP worthy. Especially Harrison, who had as much of a reputation as being dirty as he did for being good.Reed and Polamula are both getting in (assuming they don't get injured and play the years that they should). Sanders really needs to put a few healthy years together. He's the Terrell Davis of safeties.

Wow..there are some good safeties that are worthy. Rod Woodson is a lock IMO as I believe he was elected to the all time HOF team I believe while he was still a player (recollection is a little fuzzy). Rodney Harrison is an excellent candidate as are some of the younger current players. Looks like Dawkins will have a much tougher time getting in than I initially thought.

 

[Tau837]

McNabb is a good QB but no way worthy of HOF.

Watching the Eagles the other day though I thought that Dawkins might be a HOF'er. He's been real good a LOOONG time....

Dawkins is certainly a Hall of Fame caliber safety in my eyes, but I wonder if he'll ever get in. I think he, like many players, needs a SB ring to give him a fighting chance. There are a whopping nine (9) safeties [two of which played plenty of corner, too] in the Hall:Jack Christiansen (S) 1951-1958

Ken Houston (S) 1967-1980

Paul Krause (S) 1964-1979

Yale Lary (S) 1952-1953, 1956-1964

Ronnie Lott (CB-S) 1981-1994

Mel Renfro (S-CB) 1964-1977

Emlen Tunnell (S) 1948-1961

Larry Wilson (S) 1960-1972

Willie Wood (S) 1960-1971

When you consider Rod Woodson, John Lynch, Darren Woodson, Rodney Harrison and then the current trio of Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu and Bob Sanders, some very good and very deserving safeties are going to be left out of Canton.

IMO:
Rod Woodson is a first ballot lock.
Harrison and Dawkins are both worthy, but I question whether either will make it due to the reasons Jason stated.
Jason did not mention Leroy Butler, but he is also worthy. But he hasn't gotten a sniff, and I doubt he ever will.
Lynch and Darren Woodson are not worthy.
Reed and Polamalu certainly seem as if they could be worthy, but it's too early to say for them. I think Sanders has less of a chance than they do, although that DPOY certainly helps his case.

 

[Tau837]

Old post on some of these safeties from a Harrison thread. Forgot to mention Atwater above. He is HOF worthy but apparently will never get in.

Comparing Harrison and some of his contemporaries:

Steve Atwater - retired after 1999 season:

167 games

1180 tackles

5 sacks

24 interceptions

94 passes defensed

12 forced fumbles

8 fumble recoveries

1 TD

2 First Team All Pro selections

8 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 14 postseason games, with a record of 10-4, including 2-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Played fewest games of this group, which holds his numbers down somewhat. Still, great tackle numbers, a lot of Pro Bowls, and 2 rings. I'd say he is a bubble candidate, and given that DBs are somewhat underrepresented in the HOF, I'd probably put him in.

Leroy Butler - retired after 2001 season:

181 games

890 tackles

20.5 sacks

38 interceptions

130 passes defensed

13 forced fumbles

10 fumble recoveries

3 TDs

4 First Team All Pro selections

4 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 16 postseason games, with a record of 10-6, including 1-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Should be in the HOF. Excellent pass defender with solid numbers elsewhere, a ring, and 4 first team All Pro selections.

Carnell Lake - retired after 2001:

185 games

819 tackles

25 sacks

16 interceptions

101 passes defensed

15 forced fumbles

17 fumble recoveries

3 TDs

2 First Team All Pro selections

5 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 17 postseason games, with a record of 8-9, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Falls just short of deserving HOF consideration

Darren Woodson - retired after 2003:

178 games

940 tackles

11 sacks

23 interceptions

83 passes defensed

13 forced fumbles

11 fumble recoveries

2 TDs

3 First Team All Pro selections

5 Pro Bowls

His teams played 16 postseason games, with a record of 11-5, including 3-0 in Super Bowls

My take: Postseason record helps, but falls just short of deserving HOF consideration.

Rodney Harrison - done?:

186 games

1205 tackles

30.5 sacks - most by a defensive back in NFL history

34 interceptions

116 passes defensed

16 forced fumbles

9 fumble recoveries

4 TDs (including 2 kick return TDs)

2 First Team All Pro selections

2 Pro Bowls

His teams played 12 postseason games to date, with a record of 11-4, including 2-2 in Super Bowls (not counting New England's 2-1 2006 postseason, since Harrison didn't play)

My take: HOFer. Probably would have more first team All Pro and Pro Bowl selections if he was not so disliked. Played in a lot of postseason games, including 4 Super Bowls, and played well. Most sacks in history by a DB, and the only DB in the 30/30 club, and just an unbelievable tackle machine.

John Lynch - done?:

224 games

1058 tackles

13 sacks

26 interceptions

93 passes defensed

16 forced fumbles

9 fumble recoveries

0 TDs

2 First Team All Pro selections

9 Pro Bowls

His teams played 12 postseason games to date, with a record of 6-6, including 1-0 in Super Bowls

My take: Overrated compared to the rest of this group; even with amazing longevity he falls behind most of the others in most categories other than tackles and Pro Bowl selections; not HOF worthy.

Brian Dawkins - active:

173 games

880 tackles

20 sacks

33 interceptions

154 passes defensed

28 forced fumbles

16 fumble recoveries

4 TDs (includes 1 receiving TD)

4 First Team All Pro selections

6 Pro Bowls

His teams played 15 postseason games to date, with a record of 8-7, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Should be a HOFer... 4 first team All Pro selections is strong, to go along with strong numbers across the board.

Darren Sharper - active:

174 games

818 tackles

7 sacks

53 interceptions

114 passes defensed

9 forced fumbles

5 fumble recoveries

8 TDs

1 First Team All Pro selection

4 Pro Bowls

His teams played 10 postseason games, with a record of 4-6, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Good pass defender and took some to the house, but not HOF worthy.

So I'd put in Harrison, Atwater, Butler, and Dawkins but none of these others. IMO the jury is out on younger guys like Polamalu, Reed, et al. Someone mentioned Aeneas Williams earlier, and he should make the HOF IMO, but he played almost his entire career at CB.

 

[Tau837]

Kenny Easley has a pretty compelling case also, though he's been retired long enough that it's fair to assume he won't make it. Old post:

Easley is an interesting case. He only played 7 seasons before he was diagnosed with kidney disease and retired. But those 7 seasons were very strong:89 games498 tackles8 sacks32 interceptions? passes defensed10 forced fumbles11 fumble recoveries3 TDs1981 DROY1983 AFC DPOY1984 DPOY3 First Team All Pro selections5 Pro BowlsSelected for 1990s All Decade teamHis teams played 6 postseason games, with a record of 3-3 - no Super BowlsThat is a really compelling resume. Obviously, the only reason for him not to have made it is that he didn't play longer. Easley had 5 great seasons. I would not vote in Terrell Davis, since his resume is based on only 3 outstanding seasons. But Easley had a great 7 year run, so I think I'd vote him in.

Sorry for the hijack on safeties...

 

[jasvic]

I am totally and completely biased towards Dawkins, so excuse my homerism, but Dawkins has been the heart and soul of this Eagles defense for a long time. If he is down, the defense is down. He is by far the leader and most important player on that D, and when he leaves/retires, it'll be a sad day for the team and they will suffer. I wonder if these intangibles are taken into consideration for HOF, and if so, then he should be a lock combined with his on field play.

I don't know how much the other safeties mentioned compare to him in that regard. And by that, I mean I honestly don't know.

 

[JamesTheScot]

lol@ "of course" McNabb gets in if he wins a championship.

Let's play the What If game.What if McNabb played 48 more regular seasons games (3 seasons) at his current pace? His career numbers would be 39,823 yards, 263 TDs, and 122 INTs. And, what if he won a SB? His stats and winning accomplishments would be on par with Steve Young who finished with 33,124, 232, and 107. No, I'm not saying I'd consider McNabb as good as Young, but a SB and a few more typical McNabb seasons would complete a very impressive resume.

We can argue the stats all day long. The part I bolded is the key distinction. Despite his stats, many people just don't see him as a special QB. For every example of a HOF QB who has worse stats than he does, there is a non-HOF QB who has better stats. So the stats just aren't convincing in either direction.

I think he has a reputation, deserved or not, that he chokes in the big games, that he's a dink and dunk QB with inconsistent accuracy, that he can't stay healthy (and thus lets his team down) and that he isn't as effective once he became limited to being a pocket passer. Those perceptions are huge and he'll have to overcome them in the HOF voters' minds. I'm not saying I agree with all of these perceptions, but they are hurdles he has to overcome all the same.

The fact that it's such a contested idea in here may be a significant barometer. Ask the same question of Favre or Manning and see how the voting goes in here.

 

[Tau837]

lol@ "of course" McNabb gets in if he wins a championship.

Let's play the What If game.What if McNabb played 48 more regular seasons games (3 seasons) at his current pace? His career numbers would be 39,823 yards, 263 TDs, and 122 INTs. And, what if he won a SB? His stats and winning accomplishments would be on par with Steve Young who finished with 33,124, 232, and 107. No, I'm not saying I'd consider McNabb as good as Young, but a SB and a few more typical McNabb seasons would complete a very impressive resume.

We can argue the stats all day long. The part I bolded is the key distinction. Despite his stats, many people just don't see him as a special QB. For every example of a HOF QB who has worse stats than he does, there is a non-HOF QB who has better stats. So the stats just aren't convincing in either direction.

I think he has a reputation, deserved or not, that he chokes in the big games, that he's a dink and dunk QB with inconsistent accuracy, that he can't stay healthy (and thus lets his team down) and that he isn't as effective once he became limited to being a pocket passer. Those perceptions are huge and he'll have to overcome them in the HOF voters' minds. I'm not saying I agree with all of these perceptions, but they are hurdles he has to overcome all the same.

The fact that it's such a contested idea in here may be a significant barometer. Ask the same question of Favre or Manning and see how the voting goes in here.

Great post. I agree.

 

[renesauz]

Same for Herschel Walker, who set the all time pro football single season rushing mark in the USFL with more than 2400 yards (and more than 4000 yards in total offense!!!). Walker is #8 in NFL history in all purpose yards. He scored 84 TDs in the NFL. If you combine his USFL and NFL statistics, his numbers would be HOF worthy. The fact that he hasn't sniffed the HOF shows that his USFL numbers are not a factor.

Yes, Warren Moon was a nobrainer based solely on his NFL accomplishments. He is still #4 all time in passing attempts, completions, and yards, and #6 all time in TDs - NFL stats only, obviously. He made 9 Pro Bowls and was the AP Offensive POY in 1990. He also won the Walter Payton NFL Man of the Year award in 1989. And the fact that he is the first black QB inducted certainly helps his case. And, speaking of the race issue, he accomplished all of that despite being denied the opportunity to play QB in the NFL until he was 28. Had he been accepted at a normal age, there is a very good chance he would hold all significant NFL passing records right now.

Maybe you are the one who is short sighted here.

No.....but I was a bit obtuse. I think of those CFL years as a tipping point, a final nail per se on otherwise borderline cases. Warner's NFL resume' is borderline...the CFL/Arena years are the final nail. Including Moon in that discussion may have been a mistake, as he compiled fantastic numbers in the NFL...but the key word is 'compiled". Moon had very few, if any dominant seasons. In fact, he makes a nice paralell to McNabb in some regards. A guy who was consistantly top 5-8 in the league and played forever, made a lot of pro bowls but no all-pro selections.

Again...I agree that McNabb is NOT worthy today...he needs more. I simply believe he's on pace. If we'd been discussing Warren Moon after 10 seasons in the NFL, wouldn't the argument be very, very similar?????????

Don't QB's with great defenses, weak WR's, and solid running games generally compile lower passing stats?

McNabb detractors can't have it both ways.

And McNabb hasn't elevated WR play?????? We could argue that but you might be right, but then again...Maybe not...instead he just finds the open guy and spreads the ball on a routine basis to 7, 8, 10 or more different recievers come game-day.

It depends on what you are arguing. If, like the OP, your argument centers on McNabb's winning percentage, then his strong supporting cast certainly helps him with that.If you are arguing about his stats, then having weak WRs certainly is a negative. However, that can be partly offset by having good receiving RBs, good TEs, and good OLs, all of which I think McNabb has generally had.

More importantly, what matters is what happened, not what might have happened under different circumstances. If McNabb's numbers, when combined with his other final accomplishments, don't end up being good enough, then they aren't good enough.

ETA: And if you're suggesting that he always has an open guy to find, then I guess his WRs really aren't too bad are they? Or perhaps the poor WRs are offset by great coaching that consistently puts them in position to get open.

He's found the open man. Few QB's have the ability to move around in, and then outside a pocket like McNabb to allow his sub-par receivers more time to find an opening. As good as Manning has been over the years, I have a hard time believing he'd have done any better with the recieving casts McNabb has endured.

There's a general consensus among the media that McNabb has done more with less then most QB's could. For that reason, he's given a small pass on the numbers and rankings. If he retired now, some HOF voters years from now would likely forget that and just look at pure numbers, but with five more years of solid production, and at least one more deep playoff run, McNabb will have compiled enough numbers to be looked at closely. At that point, the voters will remember the Pinkstons and Freddie Mitchells McNabb suffered through.

I agree to a huge point though...if his accomplishments aren't enough, they aren't enough. right now, they aren't. In five years...they probably will be.

A lot of posters right now say if we're arguing this much..he's not in. Those posters are right, but the argument itself is grossly premature. Let's revisit it in 3 years.

Warner's close enough to retirement to talk now though......

 

[David Yudkin]

Not sure what "dominent" translates to, but Warren Moon was TOP 5 in:

Completions 6 times

Passing Yards 7 times

Passing TD 5 times

Passer Rating 4 times

Passing Yds.Gm 7 times

YPA 3 times

TD % 5 times

Moon put up great numbers even without counting his pre-NFL stats. He had back to back years with 4689 and 4690 yards passing. Does that count as dominent?

 

[JamesTheScot]

I'll start by saying that I went to Syracuse and have always been a big fan. That being said, I'm really surprised how everyone is overlooking how bad McNabb's supporting cast has been. If you eliminate Westbrook from the equation here are the top three receivers for the Eagles since McNabb's rookie year. Look at some of the leading receivers: Torrence Small, Chad Lewis, James Thrash, Todd Pinkston and these are the Eagles #1 receivers.1999Player Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD Torrance Small 49 655 13.4 84 4 Duce Staley 41 294 7.2 19 2 Charles Johnson 34 414 12.2 36 1 2000Player Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD Chad Lewis 69 735 10.7 52 3 Charles Johnson 56 642 11.5 59 7 Torrance Small 40 569 14.2 70 3 2001Player Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD James Thrash 63 833 13.2 64 8 Duce Staley 63 626 9.9 46 2 Todd Pinkston 42 586 14.0 62 4 2002Player Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD Todd Pinkston 60 798 13.3 42 7 James Thrash 52 635 12.2 39 6 Duce Staley 51 541 10.6 45 3 2003Player Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD James Thrash 49 558 11.4 51 1 Brian Westbrook 37 332 9.0 38 4 Todd Pinkston 36 575 16.0 59 2 Duce Staley 36 382 10.6 52 2 2004Player Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD Terrell Owens 77 1200 15.6 59 14 Brian Westbrook 73 703 9.6 50 6 Todd Pinkston 36 676 18.8 80 1 L.J. Smith 34 377 11.1 31 5 2005Player Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD L.J. Smith 61 682 11.2 48 3 Brian Westbrook 61 616 10.1 62 4 Greg Lewis 48 561 11.7 34 1 Terrell Owens 47 763 16.2 91 6 2006Player Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD Brian Westbrook 77 699 9.1 52 4 L.J. Smith 50 611 12.2 65 5 Reggie Brown 46 816 17.7 60 8 Donte' Stallworth 38 725 19.1 84 5 2007Player Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD Brian Westbrook 90 771 8.6 57 5 Kevin Curtis 77 1110 14.4 75 6 Reggie Brown 61 780 12.8 45 4 Jason Avant 23 267 11.6 31 2 2008Player Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD DeSean Jackson 62 912 14.7 60 2 Brian Westbrook 54 402 7.4 47 5 L.J. Smith 37 298 8.1 25 3 Hank Baskett 33 440 13.3 90 3 In 10 years McNabb has played with 2 receivers who have managed to even get to 1000 yards and 5 years no receiver managed to get to 800 yards (38 players have 800 yards this season). Overall this is a pretty weak supporting cast for McNabb and I think it says alot about how he plays and leads that he was able to take this group to a Super Bowl and 3 other NFC Title Games. I'm not saying that he is a lock HOF QB but I think looking at just stats tells you only half the story. I think it also says alot that the ONE year the Eagles decide to give him a true #1 receiver was the year that they went to the Super Bowl. I think the Eagles have left at least one SB title on the table by not going out and getting a true #1 receiver for McNabb (except 2004).

But part of the equation concerning WR's is how good the QB can make them. Moss has struggled this season, has he not? And I never saw as many underthrown and overthrown balls as last year when McNabb was struggling. It wasn't seperation problems with the WR's then. I think it's a cliche which I don't necessarily buy into but Favre and others always get credit for making the players around them better. Yet you never hear anyone praise McNabb for that sort of thing - instead, it's used as an excuse. Elway never had great receivers either but I don't remember there being much of a question about whether or not he's HOF caliber.

 

[Bob Magaw]

have any QBs in the modern era been inducted with no all pro awards?

Warren Moon, John Elway, and Troy Aikman.

& latter two both won multiple super bowls...moon had monster career passing yardage totals, at a time that wasn't common... if mcnabb approaches those, it increases the chance... i am in the camp - not enough yet... also, i think warner has better shot as things stand now... two MVPs is impressive, & he has resurrected his career after being an underappreciated journeyman for a few years...as to the safeties, rod woodson is absolutely a first year lock... i think ed reed may have a better chance than polamalu but that could be closer than i think... bob sanders has the physical ability & ronnie lott-like warrior mentality & intimidating presence that elevates the entire defense to be an all time great, but he misses WAY too many games (even more than terrell davis)... i think in 4-5 years, he has missed 10 or more games in all but one season... he is just too brittle (or maybe he plays too big for his own good, but the bottom line is the same)...this opens up an interesting question... what is the HoF distribution by position...in terms of roster architecting, all positions are not created equal...classically QB most valuable, with LT (the guy that protects the QB) right behind or arguably just as or even more important... even on defense, positional strategic importance seems to be heavily attached & weighted in terms of proximity & relationship to stopping the opposing QB, DE & CB also are highly prized (i'm speaking of blue chip ones)...i'm guessing just as in the above, REAL football sense, we might expect to find similar pattern of positional distribution in HoF...on offense, LT more valuable than RT, seemingly OT more important than OG & OC (though there have been some GREAT centers & guards, like dermonti dawson & mike munchak, who were likely more valuable than all but the very best LTs, & maybe even an argument can be made that they were just as valuable)...i have a hard time breaking down value of skill position players... in general, a TE would have to be very good to be valued as much as a very good WR... different teams weight WR & RB differently than other teams (see CHI & DEN, respectively)... here maybe the parallel between actual roster architecting & HoF positional distribution diverges... in HoF sense, it seems glamour skill positions do get a lot of love...on DE, typically DT not as valued as DE in actual sense (excepting rare guys like warren sapp & the soon to be very wealthy albert haynesworth), safety not as much as CB (obviously exceptions, like lott, who played both, starting at CB & finishing at S... in general i think LB not valued as much as elite DEs & CBs, but certainly stud MLB & WLB like ray lewis & derrick brooks could be among best defenders of their generation at ANY position, & mortal locks to be 1st ballot inductees (or should be, & i don't think this is a very controversial take)...sorry for the topical hijack... perhaps this would best be taken up in another thread?* would just like to add that (along with lott), easley in his prime were the two best safeties i have seen... not sure, but i think he was injured later in his career (& maybe had a contentious separation from seahawks over botching & mishandling an injury?), & maybe had a short career or wasn't as effective late... if he played at the level he was capable of for 10 years, i think he might have been valued similarly to lott (though of course lott gets bonus points for being part of some of the best teams in NFL history... not sure if easley had been in SF & lott in SEA that might not have evened things out a bit more than how they ultimately ended up...

 

[jasvic]

I think part of the problem with that also contributes to his low int ratio. McNabb flat out doesn't trust his receivers...or at least he didn't. As a result, he very seldom would force a throw or give a receiver a chance to come down with the ball. They would have to be wide open before he threw. Since Owens came to town and the WR around him have improved, I think he's grown out of it, but I think that affected him pre-2004.

You can read into this several different ways, either a flaw on the talent around him or on himself, but that's how it looked to me over the years.

I'm not saying he should throw into well covered receivers, but sometimes they looked open enough to give them a chance, instead he would check down to a TE or RB.

 

[Bob Magaw]

I think part of the problem with that also contributes to his low int ratio. McNabb flat out doesn't trust his receivers...or at least he didn't. As a result, he very seldom would force a throw or give a receiver a chance to come down with the ball. They would have to be wide open before he threw. Since Owens came to town and the WR around him have improved, I think he's grown out of it, but I think that affected him pre-2004.You can read into this several different ways, either a flaw on the talent around him or on himself, but that's how it looked to me over the years.I'm not saying he should throw into well covered receivers, but sometimes they looked open enough to give them a chance, instead he would check down to a TE or RB.

good observation, & can you blame him throwing to guys like the immortal freddie mitchell & todd pinkston...tha again, maybe some WRs would NOT have gotten in without a very good QB, & no doubt vice verce...

 

[Tau837]

Not sure what "dominent" translates to, but Warren Moon was TOP 5 in:Completions 6 timesPassing Yards 7 timesPassing TD 5 timesPasser Rating 4 timesPassing Yds.Gm 7 timesYPA 3 timesTD % 5 timesMoon put up great numbers even without counting his pre-NFL stats. He had back to back years with 4689 and 4690 yards passing. Does that count as dominent?

 

[Tau837]

Same for Herschel Walker, who set the all time pro football single season rushing mark in the USFL with more than 2400 yards (and more than 4000 yards in total offense!!!). Walker is #8 in NFL history in all purpose yards. He scored 84 TDs in the NFL. If you combine his USFL and NFL statistics, his numbers would be HOF worthy. The fact that he hasn't sniffed the HOF shows that his USFL numbers are not a factor.

Yes, Warren Moon was a nobrainer based solely on his NFL accomplishments. He is still #4 all time in passing attempts, completions, and yards, and #6 all time in TDs - NFL stats only, obviously. He made 9 Pro Bowls and was the AP Offensive POY in 1990. He also won the Walter Payton NFL Man of the Year award in 1989. And the fact that he is the first black QB inducted certainly helps his case. And, speaking of the race issue, he accomplished all of that despite being denied the opportunity to play QB in the NFL until he was 28. Had he been accepted at a normal age, there is a very good chance he would hold all significant NFL passing records right now.

Maybe you are the one who is short sighted here.

No.....but I was a bit obtuse. I think of those CFL years as a tipping point, a final nail per se on otherwise borderline cases. Warner's NFL resume' is borderline...the CFL/Arena years are the final nail. Including Moon in that discussion may have been a mistake, as he compiled fantastic numbers in the NFL...but the key word is 'compiled". Moon had very few, if any dominant seasons. In fact, he makes a nice paralell to McNabb in some regards. A guy who was consistantly top 5-8 in the league and played forever, made a lot of pro bowls but no all-pro selections.

Again...I agree that McNabb is NOT worthy today...he needs more. I simply believe he's on pace. If we'd been discussing Warren Moon after 10 seasons in the NFL, wouldn't the argument be very, very similar?????????

Don't QB's with great defenses, weak WR's, and solid running games generally compile lower passing stats?

McNabb detractors can't have it both ways.

And McNabb hasn't elevated WR play?????? We could argue that but you might be right, but then again...Maybe not...instead he just finds the open guy and spreads the ball on a routine basis to 7, 8, 10 or more different recievers come game-day.

It depends on what you are arguing. If, like the OP, your argument centers on McNabb's winning percentage, then his strong supporting cast certainly helps him with that.If you are arguing about his stats, then having weak WRs certainly is a negative. However, that can be partly offset by having good receiving RBs, good TEs, and good OLs, all of which I think McNabb has generally had.

More importantly, what matters is what happened, not what might have happened under different circumstances. If McNabb's numbers, when combined with his other final accomplishments, don't end up being good enough, then they aren't good enough.

ETA: And if you're suggesting that he always has an open guy to find, then I guess his WRs really aren't too bad are they? Or perhaps the poor WRs are offset by great coaching that consistently puts them in position to get open.

He's found the open man. Few QB's have the ability to move around in, and then outside a pocket like McNabb to allow his sub-par receivers more time to find an opening. As good as Manning has been over the years, I have a hard time believing he'd have done any better with the recieving casts McNabb has endured.

There's a general consensus among the media that McNabb has done more with less then most QB's could. For that reason, he's given a small pass on the numbers and rankings. If he retired now, some HOF voters years from now would likely forget that and just look at pure numbers, but with five more years of solid production, and at least one more deep playoff run, McNabb will have compiled enough numbers to be looked at closely. At that point, the voters will remember the Pinkstons and Freddie Mitchells McNabb suffered through.

I agree to a huge point though...if his accomplishments aren't enough, they aren't enough. right now, they aren't. In five years...they probably will be.

A lot of posters right now say if we're arguing this much..he's not in. Those posters are right, but the argument itself is grossly premature. Let's revisit it in 3 years.

Warner's close enough to retirement to talk now though......

I generally agree with this, with the exception of Moon being a compiler. David already covered that.

 

[Tau837]

But part of the equation concerning WR's is how good the QB can make them. Moss has struggled this season, has he not? And I never saw as many underthrown and overthrown balls as last year when McNabb was struggling. It wasn't seperation problems with the WR's then. I think it's a cliche which I don't necessarily buy into but Favre and others always get credit for making the players around them better. Yet you never hear anyone praise McNabb for that sort of thing - instead, it's used as an excuse. Elway never had great receivers either but I don't remember there being much of a question about whether or not he's HOF caliber.

This is a great post. I tried to say the same thing earlier in the thread, but this says it better.

 

[Billy Ball Thorton]

I have not entered this thread because I thought it was a fishing trip...

McNabb is not a Hofer...Thats crazy talk.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I love me some McNabb but he's not a HOF QB. McNabb and Kurt Warner have led my fantasy teams to many titles. They make my HOF. But I'm not sure either have done enough to make the real HOF. Warner surely has a shot and is deserving. McNabb not so much. Even if he wins a title, he needs a few more good years to be a lock.

 

[mannybeingmanny]

In the end, for whatever reason, McNabb has been fighting an uphill battle with the public's preception of his skills since the day he was drafted. From being booed on draft day, to being called a scrammbling QB who couldn't pass his first 6 years to a pocket passer the last few years who can't run. Even if McNabb doesn't make the HOF, I don't think anyone can say that he hasn't been fun to watch. Hopefully the Eagles go out and get him a true #1 to go with Jackson. If that happens, I think McNabb will put up some amazing numbers over the next couple of years.

 

[gianmarco]

Even if McNabb doesn't make the HOF, I don't think anyone can say that he hasn't been fun to watch.

I can say that.

 

[Tanner9919]

I was having this discussion on another board and would like to get some thoughts from this bunch....

Obviously, a non-Super Bowl winning QB has to have better numbers than a Super Bowl winning QB to get into the Hall of Fame. However, as guys like Dan Marino, Warren Moon, and Dan Fouts have proven, you can be good enough to get in without it.

If McNabb ends up winning a championship, this thread is pointless. Of course he gets in, but what if he never does?

I'll use Hall of Famer Dan Fouts as a case study and a comparison.

Dan Fouts- Hall of Fame Class of 1993 vs. Donovan McNabb- Future Hall of Famer

Regular Season Wins- Fouts 86 McNabb 82 and counting

Post Season Record- Fouts 3-4 McNabb 9-5

Regular Season Winning Percentage- Fouts .506 (86-84-1) McNabb .645 (82-45-1)

Career Passer Rating - Fouts 80.2 McNabb 85.9

___________________________________________________________________

Active QBs with most wins (Regular Season only)

1. Brett Favre 169-100 .628 pct

2. Peyton Manning 117-59 .665 pct

3. Tom Brady 87-24 .784 pct

4. Donovan Mcnabb 82-45-1 .645 pct



Guys he'll very-likely pass next year on the all-time wins list:

Roger Staubach (85 wins)

Dan Fouts (86)

Roman Gabriel (86)

Jim Hart (87)

Vinnie Testerverde (90)

This is a no-brainer. Fouts also had Charlie Joiner, John Jefferson and Kellen Winslow for most of his career. McNabb had Terreell Owens for one season.

/eagles fan

 

[johnnyshaka]

But part of the equation concerning WR's is how good the QB can make them. Moss has struggled this season, has he not? And I never saw as many underthrown and overthrown balls as last year when McNabb was struggling. It wasn't seperation problems with the WR's then. I think it's a cliche which I don't necessarily buy into but Favre and others always get credit for making the players around them better. Yet you never hear anyone praise McNabb for that sort of thing - instead, it's used as an excuse. Elway never had great receivers either but I don't remember there being much of a question about whether or not he's HOF caliber.

Hold on a second, here...have a look at the careers of McNabb's WRs over the years. Guys like Pinkston, Freddie Mitchell, and Thrash had their best seasons as Eagles...in fact Pinkston and Mitchell were so awesome that they were never able to land jobs elsewhere after they were finally let go and Thrash had 60 receptions in the 5 seasons since leaving Philly. I'd say McNabb got the best out of those clowns and more.Now look at Kevin Curtis...his best year in the NFL was last season...with McNabb. T.O. was on pace to have his best season before he was suspended for being a douchbag...with McNabb.Elway didn't have any great receivers?? Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey were pretty good at catchings balls, no?? Besides, Elway is in the HOF because of his longevity and the fact that he's got two rings that he earned in back to back seasons after handing the ball off to TD over and over and over again. During those 7 straight playoff wins, I think the Elway contributed 7 total TDs while tossing 3 picks...I'd hardly call that "dominant" but TD's performance during that stretch most definitely was.

 

[JuniorNB]

I was having this discussion on another board and would like to get some thoughts from this bunch....

Obviously, a non-Super Bowl winning QB has to have better numbers than a Super Bowl winning QB to get into the Hall of Fame. However, as guys like Dan Marino, Warren Moon, and Dan Fouts have proven, you can be good enough to get in without it.

If McNabb ends up winning a championship, this thread is pointless. Of course he gets in, but what if he never does?

I'll use Hall of Famer Dan Fouts as a case study and a comparison.

Dan Fouts- Hall of Fame Class of 1993 vs. Donovan McNabb- Future Hall of Famer

Regular Season Wins- Fouts 86 McNabb 82 and counting

Post Season Record- Fouts 3-4 McNabb 9-5

Regular Season Winning Percentage- Fouts .506 (86-84-1) McNabb .645 (82-45-1)

Career Passer Rating - Fouts 80.2 McNabb 85.9

___________________________________________________________________

Active QBs with most wins (Regular Season only)

1. Brett Favre 169-100 .628 pct

2. Peyton Manning 117-59 .665 pct

3. Tom Brady 87-24 .784 pct

4. Donovan Mcnabb 82-45-1 .645 pct



Guys he'll very-likely pass next year on the all-time wins list:

Roger Staubach (85 wins)

Dan Fouts (86)

Roman Gabriel (86)

Jim Hart (87)

Vinnie Testerverde (90)

This is a no-brainer. Fouts also had Charlie Joiner, John Jefferson and Kellen Winslow for most of his career. McNabb had Terreell Owens for one season.

/eagles fan

You're quite the wordsmith. Great counter-argument.

 

[JuniorNB]

Can we all agree that if either Warner or McNabb win the Super Bowl this year, they are in?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Can we all agree that if either Warner or McNabb win the Super Bowl this year, they are in?

Warner? Really? He played strong form 99-01/02? Then he was in Eli's shadow right? Then he was start n stop at first in AZ, then he had this year...HoF? He feels like Plunkett to me and he isn't in either with 2 SB rings. McNabb? How do you throw away 5 NFC Title games? How many QBs have that on their resume?

 

[JuniorNB]

Can we all agree that if either Warner or McNabb win the Super Bowl this year, they are in?

McNabb? How do you throw away 5 NFC Title games? How many QBs have that on their resume?

You are totally dismissing how difficult it is to get to five NFC championship games in ten years. I mean, seriously. What are th odds of a team doing that?10-5 now in the playoffs. That's not counting all the big games he's won to get Philly into the playoffs to begin with.Also, can you at least him throw this one away before you count it in as a failure. And he didn't lose four title games, he won one of them and advanced to the Super Bowl.Did I mention that he's now 10-5 in playoff games? Not many all-time greats are better than that.

 

[Mighty Mice]

Actually, McNabb has led the Eagles to the NFCCG or better in 5 of the last 8 years, and has a .667 winning percentage in the postseason.

Reputations are hard to shake.

 

[certificate]

He's got a legit shot IMO.

 

[Jeremy]

Can we all agree that if either Warner or McNabb win the Super Bowl this year, they are in?

Yes, and they wouldn't even have to play well in the Superbowl as long as they won in the end.

 

[David Yudkin]

On the flip side, if the Eagles DON'T win the SB this year, could that actually HURT his chances . . . further giving him the label of can't win the big one?

 

[JuniorNB]

On the flip side, if the Eagles DON'T win the SB this year, could that actually HURT his chances . . . further giving him the label of can't win the big one?

Obviously, winning the Super Bowl puts a great player on a whole different level. That's understandable. However, I think another appearence just about seals it for him as well.Let's not forget that McNabb and his Eagles were picked to finish third or fourth in their division this year. Losing the Super Bowl is certainly not a sign of failure. If the Eagles were considered pre-season favorites or even if they had an unbelievable regualr season and would be considered heavy favorites in the playoffs and Super Bowl, then a loss might count against him.5 NFC Championship games and two Super Bowls in eight years is pretty damn HOF worthy.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Can we all agree that if either Warner or McNabb win the Super Bowl this year, they are in?

McNabb? How do you throw away 5 NFC Title games? How many QBs have that on their resume?

You are totally dismissing how difficult it is to get to five NFC championship games in ten years. I mean, seriously. What are th odds of a team doing that?10-5 now in the playoffs. That's not counting all the big games he's won to get Philly into the playoffs to begin with.Also, can you at least him throw this one away before you count it in as a failure. And he didn't lose four title games, he won one of them and advanced to the Super Bowl.Did I mention that he's now 10-5 in playoff games? Not many all-time greats are better than that.

I meant..."How do you dismiss the fact he went to 5 NFC Title Games?" i wasn't saying how do you not fault the guy...it was a big positive not a negative.

 

[JuniorNB]

Can we all agree that if either Warner or McNabb win the Super Bowl this year, they are in?

McNabb? How do you throw away 5 NFC Title games? How many QBs have that on their resume?

You are totally dismissing how difficult it is to get to five NFC championship games in ten years. I mean, seriously. What are th odds of a team doing that?10-5 now in the playoffs. That's not counting all the big games he's won to get Philly into the playoffs to begin with.Also, can you at least him throw this one away before you count it in as a failure. And he didn't lose four title games, he won one of them and advanced to the Super Bowl.Did I mention that he's now 10-5 in playoff games? Not many all-time greats are better than that.

I meant..."How do you dismiss the fact he went to 5 NFC Title Games?" i wasn't saying how do you not fault the guy...it was a big positive not a negative.

Sorry. I see that now. I'm so used to Mcnabb-haters pulling out the choke-card that I thought you were implying that he threw away those championship games. My bad.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Can we all agree that if either Warner or McNabb win the Super Bowl this year, they are in?

Warner? Really? He played strong form 99-01/02? Then he was in Eli's shadow right? Then he was start n stop at first in AZ, then he had this year...HoF? He feels like Plunkett to me and he isn't in either with 2 SB rings.

Strong from '99-'01? Find me another QB who had as good as three-year stretch as he had, factoring in numbers, wins, MVP awards and Super Bowls. Also, he didn't have just this year in Arizona. He threw 27 TD passes last year...despite starting only 11 games.

And your comparison to Plunkett is utterly ridiculous.

Jim Plunkett threw 164 TDs in 144 career starts. Kurt Warner has thrown 182 TDs in 85 career starts.

Plunkett threw 34 more career INTs than TDs. Warner has thrown 68 more career TDs than INTs.

Plunkett threw 20 or more TDs in a season once. Warner has done so five times, and has thrown 30 or more three times.

Plunkett never made a Pro Bowl (not that making a Pro Bowl is that important, but never having even made one is significant), was never an All-Pro and has zero MVP awards. Warner has been an All-Pro twice, and has three MVP awards (two regular season and one Super Bowl).

Wanna take a crack at this again?

 

[PatsWillWin]

5 NFC Championship games and two Super Bowls in eight years is pretty damn HOF worthy.

Why?

 

[JuniorNB]

5 NFC Championship games and two Super Bowls in eight years is pretty damn HOF worthy.

Why?

Do the math. 16 NFC teams. What are the odds of getting there once or twice, let alone 5 times.

 

[gianmarco]

Can we all agree that if either Warner or McNabb win the Super Bowl this year, they are in?

For Warner, absolutely.For McNabb, no, not yet. But that gives him a HUGE step forward and another 3-4 yrs of above average stats and he should make it.

 

[PatsWillWin]

5 NFC Championship games and two Super Bowls in eight years is pretty damn HOF worthy.

Why?

Do the math. 16 NFC teams. What are the odds of getting there once or twice, let alone 5 times.

Do the math. Sounds like a great argument for the Hall of Fame.

 

[dgreen]

5 NFC Championship games and two Super Bowls in eight years is pretty damn HOF worthy.

Why?

It's just one stat in support of McNabb. On it's own, it doesn't do much for him.Name all the QBs who played in 5 Championship Games in 8 years. I'm guessing it's a pretty short list. And, it's probably a short list full of HOFers. "HOF worthy" tend to refer to positive things that few people have done.

 

[PatsWillWin]

5 NFC Championship games and two Super Bowls in eight years is pretty damn HOF worthy.

Why?

It's just one stat in support of McNabb. On it's own, it doesn't do much for him.Name all the QBs who played in 5 Championship Games in 8 years. I'm guessing it's a pretty short list. And, it's probably a short list full of HOFers. "HOF worthy" tend to refer to positive great things that few people have done.

It's impressive that he made it to 5 conference championship games. It's not great. It's also not great what he did in most of those games, and not great that he never won a big one.If there is a list of QB's who made it to 5 conference championship games in 8 years, I'm guessing the rest of them would have a ring.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

I think McNabb is making a compelling case to be inducted, but it really requires him going all the way this time.

Career retrospectives have a way of lasting only so long as you are winning. If McNabb does not win the SB, it will mean he lost his last game and as such, won't be discussed in terms of his legacy. But if he wins the big one then you start to hear the stories:

- Look at how much he perservered

- The Eagles wanted to replace him and with his back against the wall he won

- Philly has never opened it's heart up to him - he always handled himself with dignity

- et al

...and these stories last all off-season. And the discussion begins along the lines of "what else does he have to do?". It's not that the above things don't hold true without him winning, it's just that noone will care that they are true until he does and that's where positive sentiment starts to help his case.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I think McNabb is making a compelling case to be inducted, but it really requires him going all the way this time.

This is generally how I see it.

 

[JuniorNB]

5 NFC Championship games and two Super Bowls in eight years is pretty damn HOF worthy.

Why?

It's just one stat in support of McNabb. On it's own, it doesn't do much for him.Name all the QBs who played in 5 Championship Games in 8 years. I'm guessing it's a pretty short list. And, it's probably a short list full of HOFers. "HOF worthy" tend to refer to positive great things that few people have done.

It's impressive that he made it to 5 conference championship games. It's not great. It's also not great what he did in most of those games, and not great that he never won a big one.If there is a list of QB's who made it to 5 conference championship games in 8 years, I'm guessing the rest of them would have a ring.

I think you meant, never won the big one. He's won tons of big ones. 6 out of 7 this year, alone.Dan Fouts, Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Jim Kelly.....these guys didn't win the big one, either. They have busts in Canton. Part of winning the big one is being on the best team in the league. Other than his rookie year, Marino was never on the best team in the league. Fouts and Moon never were. People realize that. No one's pushing for Dilfer to get in the HOF. Knowledghable football people realize there's more to it than winning a ring. Sometimes getting the silver medal, when you are probably on the tenth best team in the league, is worth something, too.

That being said, winning the SB this year makes him a leadpipe lock, but not winning the ring doesn't exclude him.

 

[gianmarco]

Dan Fouts, Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Jim Kelly.....these guys didn't win the big one, either. They have busts in Canton.

Right. They have busts in Canton despite not winning the "big one" because of the #'s they put up in their career. McNabb isn't even close in that department. There are essentially 2 types of QBs in the HOF.1. QBs who won the big game, usually more than once, and/or were part of a dynasty.2. QBs who never won the big game but put up ridiculous stats.Some fall in category 1 (Aikman), some fall in category 2 (Marino), and some fall in both (Elway). McNabb falls in neither one right now. He's been close to #1 but never quite got there and he's on his way to #2 but still has a ways to go. Not sure why you're comparing him to guys like Marino and Moon when his #'s pale in comparison to theirs at this point.

 

[Mighty Mice]

5 NFC Championship games and two Super Bowls in eight years is pretty damn HOF worthy.

Why?

It's just one stat in support of McNabb. On it's own, it doesn't do much for him.Name all the QBs who played in 5 Championship Games in 8 years. I'm guessing it's a pretty short list. And, it's probably a short list full of HOFers. "HOF worthy" tend to refer to positive great things that few people have done.

It's impressive that he made it to 5 conference championship games. It's not great. It's also not great what he did in most of those games, and not great that he never won a big one.If there is a list of QB's who made it to 5 conference championship games in 8 years, I'm guessing the rest of them would have a ring.

Paging Mr. Jim Kelly. Please pick up the white HOF courtesy phone, please.

 

[PatsWillWin]

5 NFC Championship games and two Super Bowls in eight years is pretty damn HOF worthy.

Why?

It's just one stat in support of McNabb. On it's own, it doesn't do much for him.Name all the QBs who played in 5 Championship Games in 8 years. I'm guessing it's a pretty short list. And, it's probably a short list full of HOFers. "HOF worthy" tend to refer to positive great things that few people have done.

It's impressive that he made it to 5 conference championship games. It's not great. It's also not great what he did in most of those games, and not great that he never won a big one.If there is a list of QB's who made it to 5 conference championship games in 8 years, I'm guessing the rest of them would have a ring.

I think you meant, never won the big one. He's won tons of big ones. 6 out of 7 this year, alone.Dan Fouts, Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Jim Kelly.....these guys didn't win the big one, either. They have busts in Canton. Part of winning the big one is being on the best team in the league. Other than his rookie year, Marino was never on the best team in the league. Fouts and Moon never were. People realize that. No one's pushing for Dilfer to get in the HOF. Knowledghable football people realize there's more to it than winning a ring. Sometimes getting the silver medal, when you are probably on the tenth best team in the league, is worth something, too.

Yes, I meant the big one, my bad.And to me, your point about Fouts, Marino, Moon, Kelly et. al undermines what you're trying to do with McNabb's NFC championship game apperances.