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If a man tried to rape you or actually did (1 Viewer)

Henry Ford

Footballguy
And the police wouldn’t investigate, no one believed you, and/or he was found not guilty, what (if anything) would you do?

What if a woman you trust said a man had in the same circumstances?

I guess my question really is this: if we continue to not believe, not investigate, not test rape kits, not prosecute, and not convict, as gender roles are less defined and both women and men are more and more convinced that the “system” holds no value in sexual assault cases, what do you believe will happen?

 

AAABatteries

Footballguy
Is this someone I know?  I’m assuming yes.  I would probably kill that person or at least cut their balls off with pruning shears.

 

whoknew

Footballguy
I think there's a difference between me being raped and a woman I trust being raped. 

If I were raped, the first thing would be to try to get over the shame/embarrassment. Intellectually, of course I know it wouldn't be my fault and I'd have nothing to be ashamed of. But in reality, I'm sure I'd have to deal with that. Once/if I overcame that and reported it and then people didn't believe me? The police didn't give a ####? I'd be furious. I'd like to think that would make me an even more vocal advocate of survivors of sexual assault, but I don't know. 

Aside from the shame, I suspect I'd feel the same if a woman I trust went through the same thing. It'd be unbelievably infuriating. I don't think it would cause me to become violent - I'd like to think I would use that anger in a productive way. But that's easy for me to say without having been through it.

 

derek245583

Footballguy
A worthy topic I think.

Can we answer from the perspective of "your wife, daughter,girlfriend,sister got assaulted"? I am not sure the 99.9% male community in here is the best test audience.

 

Hawkeye21

Footballguy
This is why I feel it's important to have extreme punishment for women who have lied about being raped or assaulted in order to take advantage of another person.  Not only does it ruin the accused person's life but it also makes it harder for all other women who have actually been raped or assaulted to come forward without being accused of lying.

 

The Indestructible

Footballguy
This is why I feel it's important to have extreme punishment for women who have lied about being raped or assaulted in order to take advantage of another person.  Not only does it ruin the accused person's life but it also makes it harder for all other women who have actually been raped or assaulted to come forward without being accused of lying.
Yes, let’s make victims even less willing to come forward.  

 

Hawkeye21

Footballguy
Yes, let’s make victims even less willing to come forward.  
I suppose that could be one of the negative results to that.  I'm not sure how to make it easier for women to come forward then.  Too many terrible people in the world screwing everything up for the others that actually need help.

 

The Indestructible

Footballguy
There is a corollary to the premise underlying your suggestion.  If we start believing victims, they'll be more willing to come forward, and there will be more investigations and prosecutions, which may cause people who would otherwise engage in the undesirable behavior to be less willing to do it.  

 

Bruce Dickinson

Footballguy
We may as well decriminalize sexual assault.  We’re not serious about enforcing it.  We don’t think committing it is disqualifying from high positions of power.

Decriminalizing sexual assault would be more honest about where we are as a society than the system we have now.

 

shader

Footballguy
This is a tough question.  Someone very close to me has been the victim of a horrible assault and her attacker is a free man.  There’s simply nothing that can be done. 

While I wish one persons word were enough to put guilty people behind bars, it’s not.  The reason for that is that if it were a Pandora’s box would open and we all know it.  

Women have fought hard to attain equal rights and there are many that no longer see themselves as the “weaker” sex.  As such, there are a lot of “bad” women out there.  If you give them the ability to put a man behind bars just by claiming sex assault, that seems a bad precedent too.

It’s a terrible thing and there aren’t a lot of great answers.  Sexually assaulting someone destroys lives.  I wish there was a better way to catch them, throw them in jail and throw away the key.

 

H Jass

Footballguy
And the police wouldn’t investigate, no one believed you, and/or he was found not guilty, what (if anything) would you do?

What if a woman you trust said a man had in the same circumstances?

I guess my question really is this: if we continue to not believe, not investigate, not test rape kits, not prosecute, and not convict, as gender roles are less defined and both women and men are more and more convinced that the “system” holds no value in sexual assault cases, what do you believe will happen?
Things sucked in the past in regards to this. It’s shameful things like rape kits not being tested, claims not investigated, and women not being taken seriously happened. That crap needs to change and hopefully is. Money, personnel, etc needs to be better allocated as well to accomplish this.

That said, it can’t be a rubber stamp, throw him immediately in jail and destroy his life on the claim. I’m not saying we’re there but it’s a continuum. It needs to swing much much better in the alleged victim’s favor (investigating, listening to women’s stories) but also remain vigilant that we’re not ruining people’s lives due to possible vindictiveness and/or bad actors. I’m only mentioning this because we live in extreme, everything-is black-and-white times and it is a very gray world.

 

derek245583

Footballguy
There is a corollary to the premise underlying your suggestion.  If we start believing victims, they'll be more willing to come forward, and there will be more investigations and prosecutions, which may cause people who would otherwise engage in the undesirable behavior to be less willing to do it.  
I would think there would also be people willing to use this new found "standard" for their own personal gain.

 

whiskey7

Footballguy
I am certainly no great legal mind, but I suspect the reason more rape cases are not prosecuted is because the Prosecutors fear they wont win because they believe the defense will be easily able to destroy the credibility of the victim. Seems like so many of these cases involve no witnesses, alcohol and/or drugs, and only partial memories/inconsistent accounts of what happened that they boil down to whose story is believable and is it believable to the degree it would win in court. Unfortunately, I think that unwillingness to go after more of these cases (for fear of losing) has an effect on some of the police who fear their hard work may not yield any results. It sucks if/when it happens, but I am guessing a good number of cops don't want to get caught up in the ugliness of those kind of cases unless they think its a slam dunk. Becomes kind of a vicious cycle then as some cops don't do all they can which results in less for the prosecutors to go on which makes them less likely to go after more of these guys which makes some cops less likely to do all they can :(

As for what I would do personally, I honestly don't know. Out of respect for those who have actually experienced it, I am not going to speculate on what I would do.

 
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whoknew

Footballguy
From this thread, I'd get the impression that there are thousands of women all across the country falsely accusing men of assaulting them. Is that true? I thought it was pretty rare.

 

whoknew

Footballguy
Things sucked in the past in regards to this. It’s shameful things like rape kits not being tested, claims not investigated, and women not being taken seriously happened. That crap needs to change and hopefully is. Money, personnel, etc needs to be better allocated as well to accomplish this.

That said, it can’t be a rubber stamp, throw him immediately in jail and destroy his life on the claim. I’m not saying we’re there but it’s a continuum. It needs to swing much much better in the alleged victim’s favor (investigating, listening to women’s stories) but also remain vigilant that we’re not ruining people’s lives due to possible vindictiveness and/or bad actors. I’m only mentioning this because we live in extreme, everything-is black-and-white times and it is a very gray world.
In the past?

 

H Jass

Footballguy
In the past?
I think we’re making strides (moving positively on that continuum) at the present day, wouldn’t you? Harvey Weinstein, Louis CK, Aziz Ansari, etc etc. we not there yet, but the transition and direction is rapidly moving imo

 

Captain Cranks

Footballguy
I've never been raped, but having been scammed in my early 20s by the 'White Van Speaker Guys' is the closest thing I've got to understand what a victim goes through.  I'm not bringing this up to say I can relate to what a rape victim feels, but I imagine the shame and self-blame that I felt is similar to how rape or sexual assault is processed.  I didn't blame the speaker guys for taking my money.  I blamed myself for being so stupid to have fallen for the scam.  I was the one to blame.  I was the one who should have known better.  Because of my shame I certainly wasn't going to shout my experience from the rooftops.  Only after some time of getting over the feeling of being violated did I begin to tell people about it.  I imagine a victim of sexual assault probably has this feeling times a 1,000.   I don't blame any of them, especially given the landscape where victim's are to be believed, for not coming forward. 

This goes nowhere in answering the OP's question, but for some reason I felt like sharing.  

 

Henry Ford

Footballguy
I think we’re making strides (moving positively on that continuum) at the present day, wouldn’t you? Harvey Weinstein, Louis CK, Aziz Ansari, etc etc. we not there yet, but the transition and direction is rapidly moving imo
Two of the three people you just named are just kind of getting on with their professional lives after taking a vacation. 

I would disagree that we are doing anything rapidly on this front. 

 

H Jass

Footballguy
Two of the three people you just named are just kind of getting on with their professional lives after taking a vacation. 

I would disagree that we are doing anything rapidly on this front. 
Yep, not moving rapidly enough. I’m optimistic we’ll get there though. I really am. Five years ago those two guys wouldn’t of even suffer a consequence.

 

derek245583

Footballguy
From this thread, I'd get the impression that there are thousands of women all across the country falsely accusing men of assaulting them. Is that true? I thought it was pretty rare.
I think someone posted an article that most of the time a victims claims are true, but i have no idea how that can possibly be researched and accurately reported.

 

Underachievers

Footballguy
Yep, not moving rapidly enough. I’m optimistic we’ll get there though. I really am. Five years ago those two guys wouldn’t of even suffer a consequence.
It's unfortunate that Hollywood knew what Weinstein was doing yet remained silent.   All of them did.   

Shouldn't they be charged as accomplices?  Instead they are treated like heroes for speaking out after the fact.  SMH

 
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Cowboysfan8

Footballguy
Two of the three people you just named are just kind of getting on with their professional lives after taking a vacation. 

I would disagree that we are doing anything rapidly on this front. 
I'm sure you followed these cases much more closely than I have.

So why are they getting on with their lives? Is there evidence to prove what they were accused of?

 

Henry Ford

Footballguy
I'm sure you followed these cases much more closely than I have.

So why are they getting on with their lives? Is there evidence to prove what they were accused of?
They’re getting on with their lives because what they did was probably legal though pretty disgusting and (certainly in CK’s case) should be pretty career-ending but - and I’ve made similar points on this board before - we don’t really care about sexual harassment in this country.  Not really. 

 

Henry Ford

Footballguy
Gotcha.

So he's obviously an #######, but what else can happen to him? He's not going to jail for that 
To be fair, he claims he asked for consent from all of them, they didn’t all give it according to the accounts i’ve heard. If they didn’t, that would be super illegal. And there’s been no legal investigation to my knowledge. 

 
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Cowboysfan8

Footballguy
To be fair, he asked for consent from all of them, they didn’t all give it.  If they didn’t, that would be super illegal. And there’s been no legal investigation to my knowledge. 
When I read your original post on these guys, I assumed you thought they should be in prison 

 

Henry Ford

Footballguy
When I read your original post on these guys, I assumed you thought they should be in prison 
I didn’t make the original post about these guys. Someone else talked about how far we’ve come and used them as an example and I don’t know how they show that. 

 

Henry Ford

Footballguy
Ok. Still getting better society wide. I feel like you’re picking nits. It’ll continue getting better
I’m not trying to pick nits, I just don’t know what you’re talking about on this front. No new consequences happened to Louis CK that didn't happen to Peewee Herman, and he was in a porn theater doing what people do there without sexually harassing anyone.   

 

jonessed

Footballguy
From this thread, I'd get the impression that there are thousands of women all across the country falsely accusing men of assaulting them. Is that true? I thought it was pretty rare.
It’s tough to prove.

I’m not prepared to forgo a jury trial and throw people straight in jail on a he said/she said.  People care about sexual assault, they are just often difficult to prosecute and convict.

 

H Jass

Footballguy
I’m not trying to pick nits, I just don’t know what you’re talking about on this front. No new consequences happened to Louis CK that didn't happen to Peewee Herman, and he was in a porn theater doing what people do there without sexually harassing anyone.   
I get why you’re so down and pessimistic but I think it’s obvious there’s been a tide change in society between metoo and how much we’re talking about issues of consent, what’s assault, and listening to victims. That’s all I’m saying. 

 

Henry Ford

Footballguy
I get why you’re so down and pessimistic but I think it’s obvious there’s been a tide change in society between metoo and how much we’re talking about issues of consent, what’s assault, and listening to victims. That’s all I’m saying. 
Yeah, I think we’re listening more and thinking more and I hope that will lead to real societal change.  I agree with that.  I just don’t think it’s happened.  Hopefully “yet” is appropriate to add onto the end of that sentence. But it’s been a year since the #MeToo movement went viral and I really think I have seen zero substantive changes as a result of that movement. 

 

Henry Ford

Footballguy
It’s tough to prove.

I’m not prepared to forgo a jury trial and throw people straight in jail on a he said/she said.  People care about sexual assault, they are just often difficult to prosecute and convict.
When you say people care about it, what does that mean to you?

I ask in part because I don’t know anyone suggesting we should put people in prison without a jury trial for sexual assault, so this whole post is confusing.  

 
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jonessed

Footballguy
When you say people care about it, what does that mean to you?
People empathize with victims and would like to see justice.

I think it has to come from a societal change though and it’s going to take time.  Treating women with respect and raising women who respect themselves. I see very little that can be done in the legal system.  I’m not prepared to punish people in situations where evidence is minimal.

 

Henry Ford

Footballguy
People empathize with victims and would like to see justice.

I think it has to come from a societal change though and it’s going to take time.  Treating women with respect and raising women who respect themselves. I see very little that can be done in the legal system.  I’m not prepared to punish people in situations where evidence is minimal.
How is women not respecting themselves the problem?

 

jonessed

Footballguy
How is women not respecting themselves the problem?
I think higher self-esteem will give more girls/women the courage to come forward.  Raising strong girls.  I think it goes hand-in-hand with society treating women with more respect.

 

Da Guru

Fair & Balanced
People empathize with victims and would like to see justice.

I think it has to come from a societal change though and it’s going to take time.  Treating women with respect and raising women who respect themselves. I see very little that can be done in the legal system.  I’m not prepared to punish people in situations where evidence is minimal.
I think it needs to be addressed with children at an early age.

We have two daughters..older one in med school at U-M, the other is a second HS science and health teacher. We have told them from an early age to let me or her mom know right away in any person ever touches you in a way it makes you uncomfortable. Thankfully we never had to deal with anything.   I think every young adult female and male needs to be educated from their parents at an early age about coming out right away if something happens they deem inappropriate.

 

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