If You've Grown Tired Of Both Anti- and Neo-Fascist Violence, Check In Here (2 Viewers)

[rockaction]

Very disappointed that you would be one of those conflating these two groups. 

I did it and explained it way back in Rock Du Jour. The two groups were clearly making loose coalition friends with the other, and I think the burden of proof is on other people to explain or describe why they weren't in loose coalition.

 

[rockaction]

I think I was on Cheatsheets.net around that time

I didn't make it here until 2012, really. Shark Pool in 2011, FFA in the beginning of 2012. I was a late adopter, as it were.

 

[timschochet]

I did it and explained it way back in Rock Du Jour. The two groups were clearly making loose coalition friends with the other, and I think the burden of proof is on other people to explain or describe why they weren't in loose coalition.

Like the editors of National Review and the Proud Boys are in loose coalition. 

 

[rockaction]

Like the editors of National Review and the Proud Boys are in loose coalition. 

National Review, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't supported Trump and has taken the stance that the complaints against policing must be addressed. That's the cursory take I get from them, though I confess to have not been there much recently. I'm not even sure they endorsed Trump. As a matter of fact, they endorsed nobody for president in 2020. So lumping them in with Proud Boys, who obviously endorsed him, would be wrong not just because members of the amorphous right can't agree upon everything, but that they can't even agree on their own raison d'etre. Big difference between that analogy and BLM/Antifa, who were walking hand in hand down the major metropolitan streets of many cities, using similar tactics and saying similar things.

 

[SWC]

grown tired implies I was ever ok with political violence so lets just say I abhor all violence and think it is the last bastion of idiots take that to the bank brohans 

 

[Leroy Hoard]

All of this is a symptom of a bigger issue.  All of these people are being manipulated by constant misinformation.  It's all based on fear, and in reality, most of these people all want the same things.  

This is what you get when a society becomes complacent, entitled, and a lacks a true understanding of what is a need vs. a want.....and we wonder why much of the world hates us?  We have everything, yet we act like spoiled brats.

 

[rockaction]

grown tired implies I was ever ok with political violence so lets just say I abhor all violence and think it is the last bastion of idiots take that to the bank brohans 

Grown tired, in a colloquial sense, means to actively have now been called to account for others' violence, never a fun position to be in. In other words, to affirmatively deny is now incumbent on the individual where a simple "no comment" or withdrawal would do beforehand. It is to ask people to stand athwart it yelling "stop!" rather than going complacently to their intellectual homes and shuttering the door, if you will allow me a metaphor.

Hence the request to now check in here, especially if you haven't before, brohan.

 

[rockaction]

I get what you're saying, technically. But political violence does not always have immediate condemnation as we have seen over the events of the past year. Indeed, President Biden was calling Antifa "an idea, not a group" as recently as August. Hogwash. It was politically expedient to deny their violence, and he did.

Trump has been tacitly encouraging political violence from the beginning of his term, and his tone and substance have manifested itself thusly. Enough is enough on both sides.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Like the editors of National Review and the Proud Boys are in loose coalition. 

This is a really good example that should help you better understand how analogies and connections between things work.  When people draw an analogy between X and Y, they're saying that X and Y are similar in some relevant way.  They're pretty much never saying that X and Y are similar in every relevant way, because if they were then X and Y would be the same thing and we wouldn't distinguish between "X" and "Y" in the first place.  That's why it's bad to talk about analogies as if you're "conflating" two things or "drawing an equivalence" between two things.  That's not really what analogies are.  An analogy is not an equivalency.  It's just an observation that X and Y are similar in some particular dimension while still acknowledging that they may be very different in other dimensions.  

National Review and the Proud Boys are similar in that they are both part of the American right.  Nobody can really deny this.  Everybody at NR would comfortably place themselves somewhere on the right hand side of the political spectrum.  I assume the Proud Boys would as well.  (I don't actually know much about the Proud Boys -- I'm going on my general impression).  If somebody wanted to talk about right-wing schools of thought and they drew a connection or made an analogy between NR and the Proud Boys for that purpose, that would be totally fine and accurate.

NR and the Proud Boys are different in that one opposes violence and the other advocates for it.  (Again, that's my understanding of the Proud Boys -- indulge me for the sake of argument).  If a person were to draw an analogy between these two groups to argue that all right-wingers love violence or hate violence, it would be a pretty terrible analogy because these two groups, while similar in some ways, aren't similar at all in that way. 

The capitol hill insurrection and the George Floyd riots were different in lots of ways.  The average daytime high during the 1/6 riot was way lower than the average daytime high during the George Floyd riots.  The 1/6 riot was localized to one fairly specific location, whereas the summer riots were nationwide.  The 1/6 riot caused relatively little property damage compared the summer riots, and there was quite a bit less loss of life.  The 1/6 riot directly involved the seat of government and threatened people in the line of presidential succession, but the summer riots didn't.  The 1/6 riot was right-wing and the summer riots were left-wing.  Lots of differences.  Nobody thinks that these two events were exactly the same.

What the summer riots and the 1/6 riot have in common is that they were both politically-inspired acts of violence. Lots of us think that politically-inspired acts of violence are bad*.  That's why we connect them.  The summer riots were bad.  CHAZ was bad.  The 1/6 riot was bad.  It's very easy to condemn both when you're not part of a tribe.

* Yes, yes, I know: but what about baby Hitler and my time machine?  That's not what we're talking about here.

 

[SWC]

Grown tired, in a colloquial sense, means to actively have now been called to account for others' violence, never a fun position to be in. In other words, to affirmatively deny is now incumbent on the individual where a simple "no comment" or withdrawal would do beforehand. It is to ask people to stand athwart it yelling "stop!" rather than going complacently to their intellectual homes and shuttering the door, if you will allow me a metaphor.

Hence the request to now check in here, especially if you haven't before, brohan.

respectfully disagree it was never ok to just say no comment because it is and has always been wrong to support political violence it is the last gasp of the weak and the cowards take that to the bank brohan  

 

[BobbyLayne]

hur dur boff sidez dur

dis gih gissit 

 

[parasaurolophus]

What the summer riots and the 1/6 riot have in common is that they were both politically-inspired acts of violence. Lots of us think that politically-inspired acts of violence are bad*.  That's why we connect them. 

Police letting people commit crimes right in front of them is another similarity. 

 

[timschochet]

This is a really good example that should help you better understand how analogies and connections between things work.  When people draw an analogy between X and Y, they're saying that X and Y are similar in some relevant way.  They're pretty much never saying that X and Y are similar in every relevant way, because if they were then X and Y would be the same thing and we wouldn't distinguish between "X" and "Y" in the first place.  That's why it's bad to talk about analogies as if you're "conflating" two things or "drawing an equivalence" between two things.  That's not really what analogies are.  An analogy is not an equivalency.  It's just an observation that X and Y are similar in some particular dimension while still acknowledging that they may be very different in other dimensions.  

National Review and the Proud Boys are similar in that they are both part of the American right.  Nobody can really deny this.  Everybody at NR would comfortably place themselves somewhere on the right hand side of the political spectrum.  I assume the Proud Boys would as well.  (I don't actually know much about the Proud Boys -- I'm going on my general impression).  If somebody wanted to talk about right-wing schools of thought and they drew a connection or made an analogy between NR and the Proud Boys for that purpose, that would be totally fine and accurate.

NR and the Proud Boys are different in that one opposes violence and the other advocates for it.  (Again, that's my understanding of the Proud Boys -- indulge me for the sake of argument).  If a person were to draw an analogy between these two groups to argue that all right-wingers love violence or hate violence, it would be a pretty terrible analogy because these two groups, while similar in some ways, aren't similar at all in that way. 

The capitol hill insurrection and the George Floyd riots were different in lots of ways.  The average daytime high during the 1/6 riot was way lower than the average daytime high during the George Floyd riots.  The 1/6 riot was localized to one fairly specific location, whereas the summer riots were nationwide.  The 1/6 riot caused relatively little property damage compared the summer riots, and there was quite a bit less loss of life.  The 1/6 riot directly involved the seat of government and threatened people in the line of presidential succession, but the summer riots didn't.  The 1/6 riot was right-wing and the summer riots were left-wing.  Lots of differences.  Nobody thinks that these two events were exactly the same.

What the summer riots and the 1/6 riot have in common is that they were both politically-inspired acts of violence. Lots of us think that politically-inspired acts of violence are bad*.  That's why we connect them.  The summer riots were bad.  CHAZ was bad.  The 1/6 riot was bad.  It's very easy to condemn both when you're not part of a tribe.

* Yes, yes, I know: but what about baby Hitler and my time machine?  That's not what we're talking about here.

I don’t disagree with anything you wrote here. This particular discussion began when I objected, as I have several times, to the conflating of Black Lives Matter and Antifa. That wasn’t an analogy, it was using the phrase “BLM/Antifa”. @rockactionclaimed it was justified because the two were “loosely connected,” which I challenged. 

 

[squistion]

I don’t disagree with anything you wrote here. This particular discussion began when I objected, as I have several times, to the conflating of Black Lives Matter and Antifa. That wasn’t an analogy, it was using the phrase “BLM/Antifa”. @rockactionclaimed it was justified because the two were “loosely connected,” which I challenged. 

I don't even see a loose connection. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

I don't even see a loose connection. 

You are probably right. I mean CHAZ was an actual successful insurrection and seccession. January 6th wasnt. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I don't even see a loose connection. 

Of course you don't.

 

[squistion]

Of course you don't.

I have yet to see a single shred of proof that BLM and ANTIFA are in any way connected, even loosely. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

Ahh got it. Different connection being discussed. 

On an organization level, not connected.

On an often at same place causing damage level, connected. 

 

[squistion]

Ahh got it. Different connection being discussed. 

On an organization level, not connected.

On an often at same place causing damage level, connected. 

Particularly since ANTIFA is not even an actual organization, per se. 

 

[BigJim®]

President Biden was calling Antifa "an idea, not a group" as recently as August. Hogwash. It was politically expedient to deny their violence, and he did.

I saw this dispelled in a prior thread when someone posted the specific Biden quote referencing FBI Director Wray testimony before Congress. Do you have a quote with Biden saying this independently, and if not, why is your complaint with Biden rather than Wray? What would motivate Wray/FBI to make false statements re: it's own assessment?  

 

[Rich Conway]

That was sarcasm. It was definitely a position on this board that the looting and arson were understandable, if not justifiable. Nine people voted in favor of violence at the BLM/Antifa rallies.

Got a link to that?  Also, and I've made this point before, if it wasn't a public poll, the results can't really be trusted.  We've noticed hard-core Trump supporters attempting to skew poll results on more than one occasion with public polls here.

 

[squistion]

Got a link to that?  Also, and I've made this point before, if it wasn't a public poll, the results can't really be trusted.  We've noticed hard-core Trump supporters attempting to skew poll results on more than one occasion with public polls here.

Exactly. A voluntary anonymous internet poll isn't worth the paper it is written on (to paraphrase Samuel Goldwyn). 

 

[parasaurolophus]

Got a link to that?  Also, and I've made this point before, if it wasn't a public poll, the results can't really be trusted.  We've noticed hard-core Trump supporters attempting to skew poll results on more than one occasion with public polls here.

"I am against burning down wendys. But they are insured." 

Wasnt a poll choice. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

"I am against burning down wendys. But they are insured." 

Wasnt a poll choice. 

"Riots are the voice of the unheard."

For some reason, I haven't heard that one much recently.

 

[Rich Conway]

One thing that's becoming frustrating is the repeated and consistent effort by right-leaning posters to lump all anti-Trump and left-leaning posters here together.  One or two posters throw out a thought and it's almost universally seized on as the predominant view of the rest of the board.  "The left here condoned the violence in the summer!"  That this seems to be done, or at least implied, by even those I would consider otherwise excellent posters, is disappointing.  Maybe I'm mistaken, but I get the sense that most left-leaning posters are repeatedly careful to distinguish between "normal conservatives" and "hard-core Trumpers".

 

[IvanKaramazov]

One thing that's becoming frustrating is the repeated and consistent effort by right-leaning posters to lump all anti-Trump and left-leaning posters here together.  One or two posters throw out a thought and it's almost universally seized on as the predominant view of the rest of the board.  "The left here condoned the violence in the summer!"  That this seems to be done, or at least implied, by even those I would consider otherwise excellent posters, is disappointing.  Maybe I'm mistaken, but I get the sense that most left-leaning posters are repeatedly careful to distinguish between "normal conservatives" and "hard-core Trumpers".

I think people -- both here and elsewhere -- are really, really bad at hearing nutty voices in their own tribes.

I can speak from personal experience here.  I'm a right-winger, obviously.  Back around 2016 or so, I started to notice a lot of what you're talking about.  People would post things like "conservatives say X" where X is something loopy and I would get all annoyed and defensive because I'm a conservative and I don't believe X so why are you generalizing X across all conservatives?  Then I started paying attention and realized that actually there were quite a few conservatives really saying X and I just missed it because I tend to ignore those people.  But that's my fault for tuning out the weirdos on my side of the aisle.  Once I noticed that I was doing that, it was an easy fix to realize that posters weren't talking about me specifically and I shouldn't get triggered over an accurate observation that doesn't pertain to me.  It's basically just a matter of internalizing the No True Scotsman fallacy and realizing that yes, actually there are conservatives who think we should ban Muslim immigration, for example.  I'm not among them, but that doesn't mean that those people don't exist or that it isn't fair to criticize them. 

If you think that nobody on the left condoned/tolerated/hand-waved violence during the summer, I would submit that you weren't paying attention.  That's understandable -- I made the exact same mistake, so obviously I don't think it's anything to feel bad about.  

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I mean, the entire staff of the NYT got the vapors because a member of congress thought we should use the national guard to get rioting under control.  We're not talking about fringe corners of the internet here.

 

[Rich Conway]

I think people -- both here and elsewhere -- are really, really bad at hearing nutty voices in their own tribes.

I can speak from personal experience here.  I'm a right-winger, obviously.  Back around 2016 or so, I started to notice a lot of what you're talking about.  People would post things like "conservatives say X" where X is something loopy and I would get all annoyed and defensive because I'm a conservative and I don't believe X so why are you generalizing X across all conservatives?  Then I started paying attention and realized that actually there were quite a few conservatives really saying X and I just missed it because I tend to ignore those people.  But that's my fault for tuning out the weirdos on my side of the aisle.  Once I noticed that I was doing that, it was an easy fix to realize that posters weren't talking about me specifically and I shouldn't get triggered over an accurate observation that doesn't pertain to me.  It's basically just a matter of internalizing the No True Scotsman fallacy and realizing that yes, actually there are conservatives who think we should ban Muslim immigration, for example.  I'm not among them, but that doesn't mean that those people don't exist or that it isn't fair to criticize them. 

If you think that nobody on the left condoned/tolerated/hand-waved violence during the summer, I would submit that you weren't paying attention.  That's understandable -- I made the exact same mistake, so obviously I don't think it's anything to feel bad about.  

There are lots of folks on "the left" that hold some pretty nutty views, but I was referring more to posters on this forum than the general left.  Maybe I'm mistaken or have blinders, but it definitely seems to me that right-leaning posters here frequently write things like "everyone here said X when Y happened" when it was really one or two that said "X", while left-leaning posters are a lot more careful to distinguish.

 

[rockaction]

https://www.aol.com/news/biden-says-antifa-idea-not-025049929.html

This comes from National Review and is what Biden said during the debate. I don't see how it being Trump's FBI director makes it any less his own feelings about it. If you want to parse that, by all means have at it for a few hours.

And another thing, all I had to do to find this was goodle, "Biden, antifa, idea" into Google. From now on, do it your own damn selves. So sick of this ####. 

 

[rockaction]

I don’t disagree with anything you wrote here. This particular discussion began when I objected, as I have several times, to the conflating of Black Lives Matter and Antifa. That wasn’t an analogy, it was using the phrase “BLM/Antifa”. @rockactionclaimed it was justified because the two were “loosely connected,” which I challenged. 

In so much as they are members of the left, in the same place, perpetrating the same violence and arson, then yes, connected, as parasaurolphos said. Otherwise, no, not connected.

 

[rockaction]

"Riots are the voice of the unheard."

For some reason, I haven't heard that one much recently.

There was a lot of "if you push too far..." sentiment, too. Let's not forget that. Two frequent posters I won't name -- because we know the search function works really well here -- pulled out examples of someone having had just been pushed too far for political violence to be inevitable.

It just...was inevitable.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

There was a lot of "if you push too far..." sentiment, too. Let's not forget that. Two frequent posters I won't name -- because we know the search function works really well here -- pulled out examples of someone having had just been pushed too far for political violence to be inevitable.

It just...was inevitable.

You know, we really need to work to understand the root causes of the violence.

 

[rockaction]

I think people -- both here and elsewhere -- are really, really bad at hearing nutty voices in their own tribes.

I can speak from personal experience here.  I'm a right-winger, obviously.  Back around 2016 or so, I started to notice a lot of what you're talking about.  People would post things like "conservatives say X" where X is something loopy and I would get all annoyed and defensive because I'm a conservative and I don't believe X so why are you generalizing X across all conservatives?  Then I started paying attention and realized that actually there were quite a few conservatives really saying X and I just missed it because I tend to ignore those people.  But that's my fault for tuning out the weirdos on my side of the aisle.  Once I noticed that I was doing that, it was an easy fix to realize that posters weren't talking about me specifically and I shouldn't get triggered over an accurate observation that doesn't pertain to me.  It's basically just a matter of internalizing the No True Scotsman fallacy and realizing that yes, actually there are conservatives who think we should ban Muslim immigration, for example.  I'm not among them, but that doesn't mean that those people don't exist or that it isn't fair to criticize them. 

If you think that nobody on the left condoned/tolerated/hand-waved violence during the summer, I would submit that you weren't paying attention.  That's understandable -- I made the exact same mistake, so obviously I don't think it's anything to feel bad about.  

If we're going to get a bit personal, this is the exact reason I typed on these boards that I was no longer a member of the American right. I know, nobody cared or does care, but there was an awful lot coming from the right that I could no longer chalk up to just a brief devil deal with Trumpism by most of my compatriots. It's why I took out my own thread called "Ask Your Resident Right-Winger Why He Doesn't Support President Trump" sometime around the beginning of 2017. It was a seismic shift, this movement. Perhaps this is why you noticed it in 2016. The rumblings, beginning with Buchanan in 1992 and carried on by others like Santorum and Huckabee, became ever more entrenched, louder, and ominpresent. It was a shame.

This is neither here nor there, it's just to let you know you're not alone in that 2016 phenomenon of "What the #### am I doing having to defend this side of the debate and these guys all of the sudden?" They'd simply taken over and exposed the subterranean rot that was the foundation of a nightmare of a coalition formed in '72 with the Dixiecrats and again in '80-'88 with the moral majority. It was just never meant to hold with urbane classical liberals. We really should form our own party, align it with the left-center, and just have a bigger safety net to appease all sides with promises for an agitation toward a more secular government to satisfy our post-modern friends.

 

[parasaurolophus]

There are lots of folks on "the left" that hold some pretty nutty views, but I was referring more to posters on this forum than the general left.  Maybe I'm mistaken or have blinders, but it definitely seems to me that right-leaning posters here frequently write things like "everyone here said X when Y happened" when it was really one or two that said "X", while left-leaning posters are a lot more careful to distinguish.

Speaking specifically to this topic I dont think the generalizations being made are inaccurate. 

Maybe you werent really active in any of those threads and dont remember, but any time people posted stuff about portland, GM and urbanhack almost always retorted how great things were, how it was just a block or two and I live here shut up. They probably also condemn violence. When the early destruction was happening in MN look how many people blamed the right. I pointed out how local politicians tried to blame everything on the right just a couple days ago and was immediately met with people trying to repeat the lie or muddy the waters. It is a conspiracy theory to blame what happened in MN on the right. Just like using the fact that John earle sullivan was at the capitol would be a conspiracy theory to blame the left. It is a one off used only by a defensive tribe. 

When two white girls were caught on video spraypainting it was posted in hondas. No proof they were right wing, they were just white. 

There was a concerted effort to point the finger away from the left and blame the right as some sort of puppeteers.

Its why I laugh so much now at people getting so upset at people blaming the left for the capitol. Its literally the same thing that happened over and over. It is a technique to minimize what your side did.

 

[BladeRunner]

Speaking specifically to this topic I dont think the generalizations being made are inaccurate. 

Maybe you werent really active in any of those threads and dont remember, but any time people posted stuff about portland, GM and urbanhack almost always retorted how great things were, how it was just a block or two and I live here shut up. They probably also condemn violence. When the early destruction was happening in MN look how many people blamed the right. I pointed out how local politicians tried to blame everything on the right just a couple days ago and was immediately met with people trying to repeat the lie or muddy the waters. It is a conspiracy theory to blame what happened in MN on the right. Just like using the fact that John earle sullivan was at the capitol would be a conspiracy theory to blame the left. It is a one off used only by a defensive tribe. 

When two white girls were caught on video spraypainting it was posted in hondas. No proof they were right wing, they were just white. 

There was a concerted effort to point the finger away from the left and blame the right as some sort of puppeteers.

Its why I laugh so much now at people getting so upset at people blaming the left for the capitol. Its literally the same thing that happened over and over. It is a technique to minimize what your side did.

Yep.  Couldn't have posted it better myself. 

 

[BladeRunner]

You are probably right. I mean CHAZ was an actual successful insurrection and seccession. January 6th wasnt. 

It's amazing how they all seem to forget that.  They literally took over a 6 block area. 

Not only that, 4 people were murdered and numerous sexual assaults happened.  And they were all carrying "assault rifles".  These people were armed.  They weren't letting anyone in unless they bent the knee at the altar of Antifa/BLM.

But some guy carrying zip ties - well, that's the problem.  It's INSURRECTION!

 

[JAA]

It's amazing how they all seem to forget that.  They literally took over a 6 block area. 

Not only that, 4 people were murdered and numerous sexual assaults happened.  And they were all carrying "assault rifles".  These people were armed.  They weren't letting anyone in unless they bent the knee at the altar of Antifa/BLM.

But some guy carrying zip ties - well, that's the problem.  It's INSURRECTION!

Thank you for sharing.  I haven't read any articles about sexual assault.  Can you share any specifics on this?

 

[JAA]

It's amazing how they all seem to forget that.  They literally took over a 6 block area. 

Not only that, 4 people were murdered and numerous sexual assaults happened.  And they were all carrying "assault rifles".  These people were armed.  They weren't letting anyone in unless they bent the knee at the altar of Antifa/BLM.

But some guy carrying zip ties - well, that's the problem.  It's INSURRECTION!

Thank you for sharing.  I haven't read any articles about sexual assault.  Can you share any specifics on this?

I found this:  https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/06/19/43938596/chop-medic-intervened-in-a-sexual-assault-in-cal-anderson

It sounds like someone broke the law and got arrested.  Isnt that a good thing?

 

[JAA]

5 hours ago, BladeRunner said:
It's amazing how they all seem to forget that.  They literally took over a 6 block area. 

Not only that, 4 people were murdered and numerous sexual assaults happened.  And they were all carrying "assault rifles".  These people were armed.  They weren't letting anyone in unless they bent the knee at the altar of Antifa/BLM.

But some guy carrying zip ties - well, that's the problem.  It's INSURRECTION!

Thank you for sharing.  I haven't read any articles about sexual assault.  Can you share any specifics on this?
Expand  

I found this:  https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/06/19/43938596/chop-medic-intervened-in-a-sexual-assault-in-cal-anderson

It sounds like someone broke the law and got arrested.  Isnt that a good thing?

Here is another good article.  I dont understand the issue?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/7/2/21310109/chop-chaz-cleared-violence-explained

Bad people did bad things and got arrested.  Is there an argument?

 

[parasaurolophus]

Here is another good article.  I dont understand the issue?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/7/2/21310109/chop-chaz-cleared-violence-explained

Bad people did bad things and got arrested.  Is there an argument?

What kind of questions are these? Those arrests were for failure to disperse when they were clearing the area finally. 

No arrests for the shooting of the two black teens. Actually thats not true. They made one arrest of a woman that was caught on video telling people to pick up shell casings and get rid of evidence. They decided to let her go and not charge her.