insurance company scams regarding the ACA bring hefty fines (1 Viewer)

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/10/28/affordable-care-act-cancellations/3293001/

"Millions of Americans are getting their health insurance canceled under the Affordable Care Act and the Obama administration has known for about three years that this would happen, NBC News is reporting.

About 50% to 75% of 14 million consumers who buy health insurance individually will receive a "cancellation" letter or its equivalent in the next year because their current policies don't meet the standards laid out by the new law, the news organization reports, citing four sources deeply involved in ACA."

As sources matter, is NBC considered conservative or liberal?

This is relevant in the same way that Dodd's summer projections that this site sells can be used to prove players final 2013 stat lines. Even if NBC is 100% correct it doesn't tell us anything about the number of people cancelled to date,.

You can't figure out what 50 to 75% of 14 million is? It's certainly more than a few "hundred thousand". It's likely even higher than only 5m, as the report I posted that was released today says.

Do you have any clue why this refutes absolutely nothing?

 

[matttyl]

Do you honestly think that thus far only a few hundred thousand policies nationwide have been canceled? Really?

You fully understand that the individual market is between 12 and 14m policies, right? Do you really think that 90% of those in existance on 12/31/13 were purchased before March of 2010?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Or how about this one, released TODAY, which puts the number at 5.4m. It's from the "National Center for Policy Analysis", a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=24059

What we know about ObamaCare

"An incredible 5.4 million people with individual policies have already lost their insurance thanks to the ACA. Because the employer mandate has been postponed, those plans have yet to be affected, but cancellations will begin in late 2014."

Just stop!

The National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization, established in 1983. Our goal is to develop and promote private, free-market alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector.

So you just throw their numbers completely out, and like your avatar will keep your head in the sand?

Do you know where they got their number? I mean where Cato got the number? I do! Funny how Cato says as of Dec 31st and uses a Nov 15th article to support the number.

 

[matttyl]

Or how about this one, released TODAY, which puts the number at 5.4m. It's from the "National Center for Policy Analysis", a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=24059

What we know about ObamaCare

"An incredible 5.4 million people with individual policies have already lost their insurance thanks to the ACA. Because the employer mandate has been postponed, those plans have yet to be affected, but cancellations will begin in late 2014."

Just stop!

The National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization, established in 1983. Our goal is to develop and promote private, free-market alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector.

So you just throw their numbers completely out, and like your avatar will keep your head in the sand?

Do you know where they got their number? I mean where Cato got the number? I do! Funny how Cato says as of Dec 31st and uses a Nov 15th article to support the number.

And where did you get your number of only a few hundred thousand? Read my above post and answer it. Do you really believe that 90% of the individual market is "grandfathered" because they bought that plan prior to March of 2010?

 

[matttyl]

The Washington Post, while defending the ACA, freely used the 5m total cancellation number as gospel...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/01/23/the-phony-ratio-comparing-insurance-cancellations-to-health-plans-on-healthcare-gov/

I have no idea how someone who seems to be so on top of things as you do with all of your posts actually thinks the total number of people who's been canceled to be only a few hundred thousand. Colorado ALONE had a quarter of a million of cancellations! Do you think Obama would have gone and requested "the fix" if it only affected a "few hundred thousand"?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Do you honestly think that thus far only a few hundred thousand policies nationwide have been canceled? Really?

You fully understand that the individual market is between 12 and 14m policies, right? Do you really think that 90% of those in existance on 12/31/13 were purchased before March of 2010?

We can project, though due to early renewals and the President "changing the rules" not very well how many might be cancelled because of when they were sold. That is not the same as saying "we know" how many were cancelled. We only know of the specific numbers mentioned in news reports. As of now that is only a few hundred thousand.

I think that the number is obviously between the number reported and the worst case projection, but again it is only guess where that falls. And nothing I have posted has suggested otherwise.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

The Washington Post, while defending the ACA, freely used the 5m total cancellation number as gospel...

Just like I used it. It is the common number constantly tossed around - since October. Why do you think you are winning something with this nonsense?

 

[matttyl]

Do you honestly think that thus far only a few hundred thousand policies nationwide have been canceled? Really?

You fully understand that the individual market is between 12 and 14m policies, right? Do you really think that 90% of those in existance on 12/31/13 were purchased before March of 2010?

We can project, though due to early renewals and the President "changing the rules" not very well how many might be cancelled because of when they were sold. That is not the same as saying "we know" how many were cancelled. We only know of the specific numbers mentioned in news reports. As of now that is only a few hundred thousand.

I think that the number is obviously between the number reported and the worst case projection, but again it is only guess where that falls. And nothing I have posted has suggested otherwise.

No, you said it's only a few hundred thousand. Use some logic here, please. If Colorado alone, a state of 5.2 million had a quarter of a million individual policy cancellations, how many do you think we had nationwide?

We have over 1m in California alone, as reported by the state's insurance commissioner! (link - http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20131121/wire/131129886) "The state insurance commissioner has said that 1.1 million Californians are receiving notices that their current individual health insurance policies will be discontinued in 2014 because they do not meet the benefit requirements of the federal health care overhaul."

So if we have 1.35 million in Colorado and California alone, how many do you think we have nationwide?! Please use some logic in that answer.

And you realize that just because someone took an "early renewal" or was able to use the President's "fix", that their plan will be canceled later this year, right? I'm not sure you understand that fact. Their plans will be canceled THIS year...because of the ACA.

 

[matttyl]

The Washington Post, while defending the ACA, freely used the 5m total cancellation number as gospel...

Just like I used it. It is the common number constantly tossed around - since October. Why do you think you are winning something with this nonsense?

Because the number is accurate, and for some reason you are gonna be like the crab in your avatar and keep your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist.

 

[matttyl]

A state by state number of cancellations because of the ACA - done by the Associated Press (are you ok with them as a source?!)

http://news.yahoo.com/policy-notifications-current-status-state-204701399.html

Notables - California with 1.1m, Georgia 400k, Florida 333k, Colorado 326k, Michigan 225k, North Carolina 183k, Pennsylvania 250k, Washington state 290k. That's nearly 3m in those 8 states alone!

Total - 4.7m+ with 18 states not even reporting.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

No, you said it's only a few hundred thousand. Use some logic here, please. If Colorado alone, a state of 5.2 million had a quarter of a million individual policy cancellations, how many do you think we had nationwide?

Stop it! I said no such thing!

We only know of hundreds of thousands that had policies cancelled. That 5 million number is just the commonly asserted figure.

Stop demanding that other posters respond to your challenges on things that were not posted. Maybe pause a second or two before you go kicking the strawman's ###.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

A state by state number of cancellations because of the ACA - done by the Associated Press (are you ok with them as a source?!)

http://news.yahoo.com/policy-notifications-current-status-state-204701399.html

Notables - California with 1.1m, Georgia 400k, Florida 333k, Colorado 326k, Michigan 225k, North Carolina 183k, Pennsylvania 250k, Washington state 290k. That's nearly 3m in those 8 states alone!

Total - 4.7m+ with 18 states not even reporting.

Which is simply the number of people who received letters. That "Current Status" column of course just confirms-

"We can project, though due to early renewals and the President "changing the rules" not very well how many might be cancelled because of when they were sold. That is not the same as saying "we know" how many were cancelled"

ETA: And you do realize if the real number is 7 million or 12 million it validates my position that the 5 million number is just the common assertion and not something we really know - correct?

 

[matttyl]

No, you said it's only a few hundred thousand. Use some logic here, please. If Colorado alone, a state of 5.2 million had a quarter of a million individual policy cancellations, how many do you think we had nationwide?

Stop it! I said no such thing!

Then what the hell is this - "We only know of the specific numbers mentioned in news reports. As of now that is only a few hundred thousand."

 

[matttyl]

A state by state number of cancellations because of the ACA - done by the Associated Press (are you ok with them as a source?!)

http://news.yahoo.com/policy-notifications-current-status-state-204701399.html

Notables - California with 1.1m, Georgia 400k, Florida 333k, Colorado 326k, Michigan 225k, North Carolina 183k, Pennsylvania 250k, Washington state 290k. That's nearly 3m in those 8 states alone!

Total - 4.7m+ with 18 states not even reporting.

Which is simply the number of people who received letters. That "Current Status" column of course just confirms-

"We can project, though due to early renewals and the President "changing the rules" not very well how many might be cancelled because of when they were sold. That is not the same as saying "we know" how many were cancelled"

ETA: And you do realize if the real number is 7 million or 12 million it validates my position that the 5 million number is just the common assertion and not something we really know - correct?

California 1.1 million The state did not allow canceled policies to continue. That line ALONE makes your statement of "We only know of the specific numbers mentioned in news reports. As of now that is only a few hundred thousand." complete BS.

Here's another half million or so already canceled, because of the ACA...

Minnesota 140,000 The state did not allow canceled policies to continue.

New York 100,000 The state did not allow canceled policies to continue. Washington 290,000 The state did not allow insurers to continue their older policies.

District of Columbia 21,300 The district's insurance department did not allow insurers to extend expiring policies. You still stand by your "As of now that is only a few hundred thousand" statement?!

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

No, you said it's only a few hundred thousand. Use some logic here, please. If Colorado alone, a state of 5.2 million had a quarter of a million individual policy cancellations, how many do you think we had nationwide?

Stop it! I said no such thing!

Then what the hell is this - "We only know of the specific numbers mentioned in news reports. As of now that is only a few hundred thousand."

Another misrepresentation of what was posted on your part,

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Your policy is going up $500 per month "because of Obamacare?" May want to check out your options. Pretty good chance your company is scamming you.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/11/05/insurance-companies-obamacare-scam/

Well of course it is. Also, if they repeal ACA, then it will also go up because it is yet another opportunity to raise rates. They will say 'ACA actually held costs down and now that it is gone, rates have to be raised.' Any chance the insurance companies get to stick it to ya, they will.

 

[matttyl]

No, you said it's only a few hundred thousand. Use some logic here, please. If Colorado alone, a state of 5.2 million had a quarter of a million individual policy cancellations, how many do you think we had nationwide?

Stop it! I said no such thing!

Then what the hell is this - "We only know of the specific numbers mentioned in news reports. As of now that is only a few hundred thousand."

Another misrepresentation of what was posted on your part,

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. You're all over the place. Do you not believe that 5m+ individual policies either have been already canceled, or will be canceled this year (having been given an early renewal or due to the "fix") because of the ACA? Yes or no.

 

[MaxThreshold]

No, you said it's only a few hundred thousand. Use some logic here, please. If Colorado alone, a state of 5.2 million had a quarter of a million individual policy cancellations, how many do you think we had nationwide?

Stop it! I said no such thing!

Then what the hell is this - "We only know of the specific numbers mentioned in news reports. As of now that is only a few hundred thousand."

Another misrepresentation of what was posted on your part,

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. You're all over the place. Do you not believe that 5m+ individual policies either have been already canceled, or will be canceled this year (having been given an early renewal or due to the "fix") because of the ACA? Yes or no.

I bet he believes the numbers put out by the administration of people insured by the ACA (something like 9 million? Is that what Obama said in the SOTU speech? ). Won't be disputing that, I bet.

It's just YOUR numbers that are wrong.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

No, you said it's only a few hundred thousand. Use some logic here, please. If Colorado alone, a state of 5.2 million had a quarter of a million individual policy cancellations, how many do you think we had nationwide?

Stop it! I said no such thing!

Then what the hell is this - "We only know of the specific numbers mentioned in news reports. As of now that is only a few hundred thousand."

Another misrepresentation of what was posted on your part,

 

[matttyl]

No, you said it's only a few hundred thousand. Use some logic here, please. If Colorado alone, a state of 5.2 million had a quarter of a million individual policy cancellations, how many do you think we had nationwide?

Stop it! I said no such thing!

Then what the hell is this - "We only know of the specific numbers mentioned in news reports. As of now that is only a few hundred thousand."

Another misrepresentation of what was posted on your part,

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. You're all over the place. Do you not believe that 5m+ individual policies either have been already canceled, or will be canceled this year (having been given an early renewal or due to the "fix") because of the ACA? Yes or no.

I bet he believes the numbers put out by the administration of people insured by the ACA (something like 9 million? Is that what Obama said in the SOTU speech? ). Won't be disputing that, I bet.

It's just YOUR numbers that are wrong.

Whatever the number is, about 20% of them haven't paid and apparently are being canceled....

http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/30/news/economy/obamacare-premiums/index.html

 

[fourd]

We seem to be speaking past each other a little bit. I dont care about this particular instance and have never mentioned it, I am saying that the insurance industry as a whole is a vile, disgusting, fraudulent, scummy con game. And I agree with you that the feds are in business with the insurers, but unlike you I dont have selective memory and realize that the feds have always been in business with the insureres--nothing new going on.

I was personally always in favor of single payer public healthcare, by the way.

Give us an example of why. And please don't use the "scam" in the OP. It can't be a "scam" by one party, and a "fix" by another.

Are you kidding?

I cant help that you felt drawn to such an industry and I feel bad for you, but I think you seriously misunderstand how people feel about insurance companies. Most of the people I know just consider them a necessary evil that must be suffered through and view the brokers and agents as conmen to be avoided at all costs unless absolutely necessary.

So when Henry says the following in this thread -

"I'm not being flip. Guys like you and mattyl are essential, as are guys like me, because of the misrepresentations here. I'm sure you do explain stuff like this and what it means to your clients, and it's an absolutely necessary function which really shouldn't be necessary.

I'm not saying you guys are doing anything wrong. Far from it, because of what they do, what you do saves many peoples' financial lives."

you would disagree? Can I ask what industry you work in?

Todd? Did I miss your response?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

No, you said it's only a few hundred thousand. Use some logic here, please. If Colorado alone, a state of 5.2 million had a quarter of a million individual policy cancellations, how many do you think we had nationwide?

Stop it! I said no such thing!

Then what the hell is this - "We only know of the specific numbers mentioned in news reports. As of now that is only a few hundred thousand."

Another misrepresentation of what was posted on your part,

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. You're all over the place.

Lets pretend I say that the only insurance agents that I know of in the individual market are mattyl and fourd.

You demand that I explain the logic of how I can believe that fourd and yourself are the only insurance agents in the individual market.

That is what is going on here.

Do you not believe that 5m+ individual policies either have been already canceled, or will be canceled this year (having been given an early renewal or due to the "fix") because of the ACA? Yes or no.

I believe that there were likely roughly 4.7 million letters in the states in Reuters article of the form-

Hello policy holder

It is time for your annual renewal. In 2013 you had Plan A. Unfortunately due to changes in the health insurance market brought forth by the ACA Plan A has been discontinued. As a courtesy we will enroll you in Plan B unless we hear otherwise from you by MMM DD, YYYY. Below you will find a comparison of your existing Plan A policy and your new proposed Plan B policy. We look forward to continuing providing for your health coverage need.

The exceptions being those that left markets altogether.

I believe that there will likely be many more because a significant number of people received this letter in 2010, in 2011, and in 2012. That is half the point of Page 17. In other words 40 to 67 percent of those in the individual market received one of these letters with their 2010, 2011, or 2012 renewals or had jumped plans on their own or joined the individual market after March 23, 2010. And as I keep saying everyone of these people should have been operating under the full disclosure that their 2013 plan could not be renewed in 2014.

But these numbers don't tell us how many people had their plans cancelled as in how many people actually lost coverage. Maybe you want to equate these letters as cancellations, but really they are routine renewal notices. If they weren't routine then most everyone would be grandfathered anyway,

Finally I said "to date" so likely receiving one of these letters in the next almost 11 months doesn't matter.

I have one more post to make in this thread, then I'm done looking as this debate is of no interest to me. If you want to claim victory go for it.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

No, you said it's only a few hundred thousand. Use some logic here, please. If Colorado alone, a state of 5.2 million had a quarter of a million individual policy cancellations, how many do you think we had nationwide?

Stop it! I said no such thing!

Then what the hell is this - "We only know of the specific numbers mentioned in news reports. As of now that is only a few hundred thousand."

Another misrepresentation of what was posted on your part,

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. You're all over the place. Do you not believe that 5m+ individual policies either have been already canceled, or will be canceled this year (having been given an early renewal or due to the "fix") because of the ACA? Yes or no.

I bet he believes the numbers put out by the administration of people insured by the ACA (something like 9 million? Is that what Obama said in the SOTU speech? ). Won't be disputing that, I bet.

It's just YOUR numbers that are wrong.

You mean "my number"?

You're the one who brought up the 5m figure.