Interesting debate (my league mates are against me) (1 Viewer)

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Now first off I want to point out that I have been a pretty big Turner supporter right from the start and my league hates him just because of my man crush for him. So they think I am looking at it from a byast point of view.

Here is the debate.... I said that M. Turner has been easily the MVP of the Falcons this season. Now, here is my argument versus theirs.

Statistically the Falcons are a running team. It is their strength and the most important reason they are winning. Turner is 3rd in the league in rushing yards and first in the league in rushing TD's. He is averaging 98 yards a game and is on pace for 1582 yards and 18 TD's. He is first in the league for rushing attempts at 22.8 attempts a game. In realtion to the rest of the league for his position he statistically is a top 3-5 player (receiving aside). Not only is he having a great statistcal season but he is the ultimate team player and the team and organization respects him. He has all the attributes of what an MVP is for a team.

Ryan, who I think is a very good QB and having an amazing rookie year and has a very bright future in this league is playing at a very good level, but has he been more important than Turner for this specific season? Their argument is....... what Ryan is doing as a rookie is amazing.....and I would have to agree 100% with that. However, statistically speaking Ryan is having just an ok year. The team has limited his throws as he sits tied in 24th spot in the league with Big Ben and Kerry Collins at 28.2 passing attemps a game. He is tied at 14th in the league with 11 passing TD's, and 11th in for yards, and 21st in the league for completion percentage. He is on pace to throw for 16 TD's which is less TD's than what Turner is on pace for rushing.

Now I fully realize that both guys benefit from each other a lot and what Ryan is doing as a rookie in this league is amazing but does that make him a more valuable player for this specific season than Turner? I think Ryan is going to be one hell of a QB but I think if you had to choose an MVP for that team for this season would it not be Turner???

What do you guys think?

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

I'm with you. Without Turner's productivity Ryan wouldn't be making the adjustment to the bigs as well as he is.

Obviously Ryan is doing well enough to keep teams from putting 11 on the line for every play, but like you said he's not throwing a lot, not asked to convert a lot of 3rd and longs, and not putting up great numbers.

 

[Moniker]

I'm with you. Without Turner's productivity Ryan wouldn't be making the adjustment to the bigs as well as he is. Obviously Ryan is doing well enough to keep teams from putting 11 on the line for every play, but like you said he's not throwing a lot, not asked to convert a lot of 3rd and longs, and not putting up great numbers.

Exactly. Turner is MVP without question.

 

[zamboni]

I think you bring up good points, Carter.

In some defense of Ryan though, numbers don't always tell the story for QBs. Remember Troy Aikman never really had great numbers, but without him back there, that Cowboys offense wouldn't have been the same.

Ryan's numbers haven't been great, but he's been making relatively few mistakes (especially for a rookie) and converting when necessary. If it weren't for a dropped pass by Roddy White last week, the team would have pulled out another big victory.

All that said, I think it starts up front (or in the backfield) with Turner.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I think you bring up good points, Carter.In some defense of Ryan though, numbers don't always tell the story for QBs. Remember Troy Aikman never really had great numbers, but without him back there, that Cowboys offense wouldn't have been the same.Ryan's numbers haven't been great, but he's been making relatively few mistakes (especially for a rookie) and converting when necessary. If it weren't for a dropped pass by Roddy White last week, the team would have pulled out another big victory. All that said, I think it starts up front (or in the backfield) with Turner.

I agree, numbers don't always tell the story, and I do believe that Ryan has been better than his numbers actually are. I also think Ryan has those attributes of being a "special" player. But even saying that, Turner has had the better season so far as you have indicated.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Turner, definitely. Ryan has done extremely well for a rookie, but Turner is the engine that runs that offense.

 

[Mainevent]

Matt Ryan being as good as he's been has opened running lanes for Turner. If Ryan was VY, I doubt Turner would be going anywhere. His ypc avg for the year is 4.3, that is average. He has poor games against tougher teams (aside from this weekend). He has received a ton of goalline touches, where the Oline has made it easy for him to tally TD's. I would compare Turner to Addai (without the receiving skills, but more for the situation), since Manning is able to open up the running game with his passing, the same way teams know Ryan is one big toss to White for a TD, they have to respect him, leaving running lanes open. They benefit from each others play, but Ryan makes it all tick.

 

[MNTom]

Turner MVP for home games.

Ryan MVP for away games.

 

[Chunky Soup]

Falcons probably won't make the playoffs. This is like discussing if the Raiders MVP is Johnnie Lee Higgins or Chaz Schilens.

 

[PatrickT]

Falcons probably won't make the playoffs. This is like discussing if the Raiders MVP is Johnnie Lee Higgins or Chaz Schilens.

Yes, I can totally get that comparison. Spot on. Well played.

 

[PatrickT]

I think it has to be Turner. Look at it this way. If they had gone with Chris Redman and he had Ryan's numbers, would you make him a candidate? No, probably not. You'd think he was holding down the fort admirably. But Ryan doing it as a rookie is making it seem that much better.

Now, what running backs on the open market were going to come in and do what Turner's done? Not many, if any. His combination of speed and power has made the difference in this team. You could also make a case for a third candidate in Abraham. His total disruption of opposing QBs has helped hide some holes in this defense.

 

[gianmarco]

Matt Ryan being as good as he's been has opened running lanes for Turner. If Ryan was VY, I doubt Turner would be going anywhere. His ypc avg for the year is 4.3, that is average. He has poor games against tougher teams (aside from this weekend). He has received a ton of goalline touches, where the Oline has made it easy for him to tally TD's. I would compare Turner to Addai (without the receiving skills, but more for the situation), since Manning is able to open up the running game with his passing, the same way teams know Ryan is one big toss to White for a TD, they have to respect him, leaving running lanes open. They benefit from each others play, but Ryan makes it all tick.

I wouldn't even imagine comparing Turner to Addai in terms of situation and its relation to their success. Addai benefited from playing in an ultra-elite passing offense led by the league's best QB (year to year). Weapons all around him, historical scoring offense, etc. Turner is on anything but a pass first team with multiple weapons around him. Their passing offense #'s aren't even in the top half of the league yet you want to compare their situations? Yes, teams have to respect White and Ryan has done well, but let's not get carried away. Addai's and Turner's situations are nothing alike. Put Addai in Atlanta and he fails miserably. Put Turner in Indy and his ypc would soar but he'd see fewer touches than he is in Atlant's RUN-FIRST offense.

 

[Force]

Matt Ryan being as good as he's been has opened running lanes for Turner. If Ryan was VY, I doubt Turner would be going anywhere. His ypc avg for the year is 4.3, that is average. He has poor games against tougher teams (aside from this weekend). He has received a ton of goalline touches, where the Oline has made it easy for him to tally TD's. I would compare Turner to Addai (without the receiving skills, but more for the situation), since Manning is able to open up the running game with his passing, the same way teams know Ryan is one big toss to White for a TD, they have to respect him, leaving running lanes open. They benefit from each others play, but Ryan makes it all tick.

season ticket holder and I don't think it is even closeRoddy has been huge but even he has had a couple of bad games. And Turner is by far the one of the best free agent signings this year but disappears in some games. Matt Ryan is the most consistent player on this team and he would get my vote for MVP of this team. As Mainevent said Ryan is definitely the player that makes it all tick.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

7 to 2 so far in favor of Turner.

 

[BassNBrew]

Ryan. Turner is good, but not great. Ryan has been outstanding this year.

 

[gianmarco]

Ryan. Turner is good, but not great. Ryan has been outstanding for a rookie this year.

fixed.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

I think it has to be Turner. Look at it this way. If they had gone with Chris Redman and he had Ryan's numbers, would you make him a candidate? No, probably not. You'd think he was holding down the fort admirably. But Ryan doing it as a rookie is making it seem that much better.

Now, what running backs on the open market were going to come in and do what Turner's done? Not many, if any. His combination of speed and power has made the difference in this team. You could also make a case for a third candidate in Abraham. His total disruption of opposing QBs has helped hide some holes in this defense.

Thats a terrible "what if"Look at it this way...what if they had gone with Jerious Norwood instead of signing Turner and Norwood was doing as good....

 

[big_donkey]

RYAN

 

[Mainevent]

Matt Ryan being as good as he's been has opened running lanes for Turner. If Ryan was VY, I doubt Turner would be going anywhere. His ypc avg for the year is 4.3, that is average. He has poor games against tougher teams (aside from this weekend). He has received a ton of goalline touches, where the Oline has made it easy for him to tally TD's. I would compare Turner to Addai (without the receiving skills, but more for the situation), since Manning is able to open up the running game with his passing, the same way teams know Ryan is one big toss to White for a TD, they have to respect him, leaving running lanes open. They benefit from each others play, but Ryan makes it all tick.

I wouldn't even imagine comparing Turner to Addai in terms of situation and its relation to their success. Addai benefited from playing in an ultra-elite passing offense led by the league's best QB (year to year). Weapons all around him, historical scoring offense, etc. Turner is on anything but a pass first team with multiple weapons around him. Their passing offense #'s aren't even in the top half of the league yet you want to compare their situations? Yes, teams have to respect White and Ryan has done well, but let's not get carried away. Addai's and Turner's situations are nothing alike. Put Addai in Atlanta and he fails miserably. Put Turner in Indy and his ypc would soar but he'd see fewer touches than he is in Atlant's RUN-FIRST offense.

Maybe I am looking too far ahead, but yes, I compared Matt Ryan (2400 yards, 11 TD, 6 picks, 60% comp, 7.8 Y/A) to Manning (2800 yards, 19 TD, 10 picks, 62% comp, 6.7 Y/A). Yes, Manning has more than an edge, but he also has more weapons (including a couple RBs, and a TE who are good receivers). The Falcons have played some poor teams, and thus have had early leads. What happens when a team takes an early lead, they resort to the run to protect that lead and chew clock. On the other hand, Indy has had to make comebacks to win, and coming from behind, what do you usually do to come back, you pass. Maybe this gives us the illusion that ATL is a run first team, when in fact IMO they are a balanced team. I believe Ryan allows them to be balanced, and Turner benefits from this. Ok, I agree the situations of Turner and Addai are not similar, what I was trying to get at was that Addai and Turner are similar in skill level, in the sense, neither are elite backs (again, putting aside receiving ability as well), and both players benefit from having a QB who can effectively (efficiently) pass the ball. I disagree with the thought that Addai would fail in ATL, and Turner would excel in Indy. On the other hand, Turner not being able to catch the ball would lose reps on the field, being part of a pass first attack. Where as Addai, would get more reps, being able to stay on the field on 3rd and long situations. Both players would drop a little in value, imo, but Turner more than Addai, because Addai has shown he is a more versatile back. Looking ahead to next year, Turner will be overvalued, and people will reach to pick him. But with ATL having a tougher schedule, Turner will see a drop in production, unless the Falcons improve proportionally to the increased difficulty in schedule. Another factor will be the growth of Matt Ryan. Turner's value is more dependent on Ryan, than Ryan's value on Turner... thus imo Ryan is the MVP of this team.

 

[PatrickT]

I think it has to be Turner. Look at it this way. If they had gone with Chris Redman and he had Ryan's numbers, would you make him a candidate? No, probably not. You'd think he was holding down the fort admirably. But Ryan doing it as a rookie is making it seem that much better.

Now, what running backs on the open market were going to come in and do what Turner's done? Not many, if any. His combination of speed and power has made the difference in this team. You could also make a case for a third candidate in Abraham. His total disruption of opposing QBs has helped hide some holes in this defense.

Thats a terrible "what if"Look at it this way...what if they had gone with Jerious Norwood instead of signing Turner and Norwood was doing as good....

Not sure I get your point. If they had kept Norwood and he put up identical numbers to Turner, Norwood would be a candidate, but if Redman had Ryan's numbers, he wouldn't be a candidate. What's the issue with that statement?

 

[gianmarco]

Matt Ryan being as good as he's been has opened running lanes for Turner. If Ryan was VY, I doubt Turner would be going anywhere. His ypc avg for the year is 4.3, that is average. He has poor games against tougher teams (aside from this weekend). He has received a ton of goalline touches, where the Oline has made it easy for him to tally TD's. I would compare Turner to Addai (without the receiving skills, but more for the situation), since Manning is able to open up the running game with his passing, the same way teams know Ryan is one big toss to White for a TD, they have to respect him, leaving running lanes open. They benefit from each others play, but Ryan makes it all tick.

I wouldn't even imagine comparing Turner to Addai in terms of situation and its relation to their success. Addai benefited from playing in an ultra-elite passing offense led by the league's best QB (year to year). Weapons all around him, historical scoring offense, etc. Turner is on anything but a pass first team with multiple weapons around him. Their passing offense #'s aren't even in the top half of the league yet you want to compare their situations? Yes, teams have to respect White and Ryan has done well, but let's not get carried away. Addai's and Turner's situations are nothing alike. Put Addai in Atlanta and he fails miserably. Put Turner in Indy and his ypc would soar but he'd see fewer touches than he is in Atlant's RUN-FIRST offense.

Maybe I am looking too far ahead, but yes, I compared Matt Ryan (2400 yards, 11 TD, 6 picks, 60% comp, 7.8 Y/A) to Manning (2800 yards, 19 TD, 10 picks, 62% comp, 6.7 Y/A). Yes, Manning has more than an edge, but he also has more weapons (including a couple RBs, and a TE who are good receivers). The Falcons have played some poor teams, and thus have had early leads. What happens when a team takes an early lead, they resort to the run to protect that lead and chew clock. On the other hand, Indy has had to make comebacks to win, and coming from behind, what do you usually do to come back, you pass. Maybe this gives us the illusion that ATL is a run first team, when in fact IMO they are a balanced team. I believe Ryan allows them to be balanced, and Turner benefits from this. Ok, I agree the situations of Turner and Addai are not similar, what I was trying to get at was that Addai and Turner are similar in skill level, in the sense, neither are elite backs (again, putting aside receiving ability as well), and both players benefit from having a QB who can effectively (efficiently) pass the ball. I disagree with the thought that Addai would fail in ATL, and Turner would excel in Indy. On the other hand, Turner not being able to catch the ball would lose reps on the field, being part of a pass first attack. Where as Addai, would get more reps, being able to stay on the field on 3rd and long situations. Both players would drop a little in value, imo, but Turner more than Addai, because Addai has shown he is a more versatile back.

Looking ahead to next year, Turner will be overvalued, and people will reach to pick him. But with ATL having a tougher schedule, Turner will see a drop in production, unless the Falcons improve proportionally to the increased difficulty in schedule. Another factor will be the growth of Matt Ryan. Turner's value is more dependent on Ryan, than Ryan's value on Turner... thus imo Ryan is the MVP of this team.

Then this is where we disagree as well. I think Turner is a MUCH better RB than Addai in terms of skill level. A good portion of that is Turner's build and the fact that he's built to be a workhouse back which is what he's doing. I think there are a good # of RB's that would not be doing nearly as well as he is in Atlanta this year. The overwhelming consensus going into this year was what a horrible situation Turner landed on. Now, they've greatly overachieved, Ryan is playing awesome for a rookie (and in general, mostly not making mistakes), and the O-line is far better than most anticipated, but it is still nowhere near elite and Turner has gotten a lot of what he's gotten on the ground through his effort and talent and not their run-blocking. I think Addai would fail miserably in Atlanta (as would many others as I stated).I was NOT a Turner supporter at all going into this year. I didn't think he was going to bomb either, but I just wasn't convinced given his limited # of carries in the NFL and running in SD all this time. Kudos to his supporters before the season started who believed in his ability as a RB. I hadn't watched him much as a backup in SD and needed to see more of him before I even thought of buying on him. Well, I've seen quite a bit of him now (I watch mostly NFC south games) and he is easily one of the better runners in the league. In terms of talent, I'll take Turner over Addai and "it isn't even close".

 

[FlapJacks]

QB is a much more difficult position and has a bigger role than RB.

I'm leaning Ryan.

 

[PatrickT]

Just as an FYI, the AJC did a poll a few weeks ago. Ryan was the hands down winner.

Link

Matt Ryan   	   	 59.31%   	 1108Michael Turner 		16.22% 	303Roddy White 		6.53% 	122John Abraham 		17.93% 	335

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I think the "Ryan" crowd is clearly blinded by the fact that what he is doing as a rookie is clouding their judgement of how good Turner has actually been.

I have already gone on record as saying what Ryan is doing as a rookie is absolutely amazing. Rookie QB's are not supposed to be doing what he is doing. However, when your QB is not in any of the top 10 main statistical categories for the league at his position and your running back is clearly one of the top statistical leaders for his position it would seem clear to me which one deserves to be your teams MVP.

Turner has clearly been on of the best RB's in the league and if you have watched the game its actually amazing that he is getting some of the yards he actually does.

If it was any other player (a veteran) that was not a rookie and had the same stats as Ryan vs what Turner is doing I think everyone would overwhelmingly say Turner. However the fact that Ryan is doing it as a rookie is amazing, but it does not mean that it is MVP worthy when another player on the team has been better than him.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

I think it has to be Turner. Look at it this way. If they had gone with Chris Redman and he had Ryan's numbers, would you make him a candidate? No, probably not. You'd think he was holding down the fort admirably. But Ryan doing it as a rookie is making it seem that much better.

Now, what running backs on the open market were going to come in and do what Turner's done? Not many, if any. His combination of speed and power has made the difference in this team. You could also make a case for a third candidate in Abraham. His total disruption of opposing QBs has helped hide some holes in this defense.

Thats a terrible "what if"Look at it this way...what if they had gone with Jerious Norwood instead of signing Turner and Norwood was doing as good....

Not sure I get your point. If they had kept Norwood and he put up identical numbers to Turner, Norwood would be a candidate, but if Redman had Ryan's numbers, he wouldn't be a candidate. What's the issue with that statement?

Your whole statement is based on a "What if" scenario. You are disregarding Ryan because you believe that if Redman was putting up similar numbers that he would not be mentioned. No one has any idea if that would be the case, and no one knows what numbers Redman would put up if he was starting instead of Ryan, so its a very weak argument.Take Ryan's play and stats at face value. Either it is significant or not...you can't de-value what Ryan has done simply because you think that Redman would not get mentioned with the same numbers.

 

[Muahahaha]

Ryan. Put a "replacement level QB" in there and this team is 3-4 wins worse. Think Harrington.

 

[Chunky Soup]

Ryan. Put a "replacement level QB" in there and this team is 3-4 wins worse. Think Harrington.

If you put Harrington on most teams they'd have 3-4 less wins.

 

[PatrickT]

I think it has to be Turner. Look at it this way. If they had gone with Chris Redman and he had Ryan's numbers, would you make him a candidate? No, probably not. You'd think he was holding down the fort admirably. But Ryan doing it as a rookie is making it seem that much better.

Now, what running backs on the open market were going to come in and do what Turner's done? Not many, if any. His combination of speed and power has made the difference in this team. You could also make a case for a third candidate in Abraham. His total disruption of opposing QBs has helped hide some holes in this defense.

Thats a terrible "what if"Look at it this way...what if they had gone with Jerious Norwood instead of signing Turner and Norwood was doing as good....

Not sure I get your point. If they had kept Norwood and he put up identical numbers to Turner, Norwood would be a candidate, but if Redman had Ryan's numbers, he wouldn't be a candidate. What's the issue with that statement?

Your whole statement is based on a "What if" scenario. You are disregarding Ryan because you believe that if Redman was putting up similar numbers that he would not be mentioned. No one has any idea if that would be the case, and no one knows what numbers Redman would put up if he was starting instead of Ryan, so its a very weak argument.Take Ryan's play and stats at face value. Either it is significant or not...you can't de-value what Ryan has done simply because you think that Redman would not get mentioned with the same numbers.

Don't you have to play the what if game here, a little bit? I think you do, simply because you have to find a way to temper what Ryan's doing based on the fact that he's a rookie. My point, and maybe I'm not making it very well is, that if he weren't a rookie, he wouldn't be considered an MVP candidate.

 

[NeverEnough]

Excellent argument, but the QB is the cornerstone of a team & the leader. Ryan wins hands down IMO. Numbers don't tell the whole story, not that Ryan has bad numbers either.

 

[PatrickT]

Excellent argument, but the QB is the cornerstone of a team & the leader. Ryan wins hands down IMO. Numbers don't tell the whole story, not that Ryan has bad numbers either.

Valid statement, QBs especially have to be recognized for leadership and other "intangibles", and Ryan has made this his team from the very start.

 

[Muahahaha]

Ryan. Put a "replacement level QB" in there and this team is 3-4 wins worse. Think Harrington.

If you put Harrington on most teams they'd have 3-4 less wins.

Well, Football Outsiders has Ryan as the #2 QB based on DVOA & Turner as the #13 RB.Any analysis comparing Ryan to your "average" QB, rookie or not, will show him to be studly. Turner is just slightly better than average.

Swap Chester Taylor and Michael Turner and the Falcons have the same record. Swap Gus Frerotte and Matt Ryan and the Falcons take a dive.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Excellent argument, but the QB is the cornerstone of a team & the leader. Ryan wins hands down IMO. Numbers don't tell the whole story, not that Ryan has bad numbers either.

Oh no doubt Ryan makes this team better and they are fortunate to have him. People keep on reffering to if Atl had a different QB then Turner would not be as successful. Well you can play this game from the other side. What if Atl had a different RB that was struggling to get yards and not being able to help move the chains and punch those goal line touches into TD's. Do you think Atl would be as successful? Would Ryan being have as good a rookie season with a much lesser running game where he was forced to throw more attempts? I mean there are plenty of what ifs you can do from the other side.I know that QB is the most important football position on a team, but unfortunately MVP's are not just the intangibles, they are stats as well. And besides the fact Turner's intangilbes are some of the best in the league. Turner is the ultimate pro and team player and someone that you would would graciously accpet as a captain and team leader. It is widely known by anyone who has followed his career path that this is one of the most unselfish players in the NFL. The guy is/was clearly one of the most gifted RB's in the league and accepted a back up role to LT and never once complained about being a back up even though every time he touched the ball he was extremely successful. He received nothing but praise for the way he carries himself as a person on and off the field and Atl would not let him leave when he visited them as a free agent due to these intangibles. So combine Turner's stas as well as his intangibles and I think he gets the nod for Atl's MVP this season.

 

[NeverEnough]

How's this for ranking Ryan...I might offer up a deal sending Brees packing for Ryan!

 

[Futeki]

Ryan has been great...for a rookie. He has played admirably.

Turner has been a beast and thus the focal point of the defense. As a result his YPC is pedestrian at times, but he takes a ton of pressure off of Ryan.

For this year, it is clearly Turner. Going forward, I expect Ryan to be the clear MVP. He is going to be great. A great QB trumps a great RB every time. Ryan just isn't great...yet.

 

[big_donkey]

RYAN

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Interesting fact.....

From an article.... Matt Ryan is talking about how hard it is to take down Turner

Falcons' Turner proving hard to take down, even harder to ignore

NFL.com

Ryan has a front-row seat to Turner's exploits, but don't just take his word for it. The 5-10, 244-pound Turner has recorded the most broken tackles (27) and yards after contact (563) in the league, proving harder to take down than the likes of Adrian Peterson, Marion Barber and Brandon Jacobs.