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Iran - Democracy Movement, The Nuke Deal & The Future (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter SaintsInDome2006
- Start date
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Someone will talk this fool into the war and they will spin it as a re election positive
ren hoek
Footballguy
If it were any other country, I’d probably agree. His signature move appears to be blowing a gasket on Twitter and then seeking a more conflict averse resolution to the problem. He did this with Kim and Assad to a lesser extent (though they will almost certainly get back to instigating a war there too).
But this is what Israel wants. It’s what Sheldon Adelson and Kristol’s FDD want. It’s what they’ve wanted for decades. He’s basically turned over the entire State Dept. to them wrt Iran. They’ve already killed Iranians with their abhorrent sanctions regime.
Unlike the Trump/Putin fairytale, which was a stupid ####### meme the whole time, Trump will serve his Zionist handlers to the bitter end.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don’t believe that Israel wants a war between the US and Iran. They want tough pressure on Iran but not a war. That would be terrible for Israel.
As for the rest of your post- I don’t think you’re an anti-Semite, ren, but you’re using anti-Semitic rhetoric here and it’s unfortunate. Crap like “Trump will serve his Zionist handlers”: that’s some really ugly stuff (and BS too.) I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you don’t fully realize the implications. But you should.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I'm not going to fall into this overall trope... but what I've been trying to say to you is that our non-posture posture and non-withdrawal withdrawal in Syria is doing is causing greater risk.
Netanyahu is yes extremely nationalist, he has become much more so under Trump. He is expanding into Golan with Trump's support and he wants to do the same with Palestine.
But my point is that by removing the buffer in Syria Trump has increased the risk of conflict between Iran and Israel. Israel has attacked Iranian (!) positions in Syria.
Simultaneously Trump has made arguably illegal arms sales to KSA and KSA has also moved in (via proxy) to eastern Syria... where Iran also is. And we're encouraging the same framework in Qatar and Yemen.
So what we see is increased conflict and risk of conflict between Israel/Iran and KSA/Iran, and we get dragged in anyway.
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ren hoek
Footballguy
Only if you automatically conflate "Zionists" with "Jews". Which is kind of weird in itself. A lot of Jewish people don't support the idea of a genocidal, supremacist state and it's unfair to them to characterize them otherwise. Some of the most dedicated Zionists in the US are Christians.
Look at how far right and emboldened Israel has become with Trump's backing. Moving the embassy to Jerusalem, murdering Palestinian protesters in broad daylight, US as the lone wolf on Israel's behalf at the UN, brutal sanctions on Iran, withdrawing from the Iran deal. I'm not sure what nicer way there is to say Trump's administration is ridiculously beholden to Zionists, and neoconservatives with a bizarre soft spot for Israel.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Just another thought about Trump and wars: Trump ran for 1.5 years, transitioned for another .5, and has been president 2.5 years. We still don't know what his ideology is beyond nationalism. He doesn't hold facts in his head, we know that too. He recently said no one knew what Vietnam was in 1968. He said that because it suited him, it's not strictly a lie to him because it's real in his head. And he didn't oppose the Vietnam war, he was in a military school for crying out loud, he just didn't want to risk his neck.
Trump does not appear to have any real view on war. He opposes international structures and organizations and traditions designed to prevent war, we know that. He bulls through good policy and does what he wants and creates greater risk of war, we know that.
The only reason to think he doesn't want war is that he seems to think people don't want war. His base doesn't want it, he doesn't want it. If he says something bellicose and the polls come back bad, he doesn't like that and denies he said it.
Has Trump ever said anything positive or negative about Khameini? He has said loads about Putin, KJU, Maduro, Duterte, Bolsanaro, Xi... he likely doesn't think about Khameini at all because he probably doesn't think Americans care about him or knows who he is.
Same guy said 'Who's that?' when Macron brought up the negotiations his nuke deal negotiator Brian Hook had been doing for a year.
Trump could dislike a war today and like it tomorrow if a US ship is hit. There's nothing inherently pro-war or anti-war about him. He could make anti-war noises and then cause a false sense of security by Iran to push the envelope over and over again, and then feel personally offended by something that Khameini told Abe and then sell sophisticated arms to MSB. Anything can happen.
Trump does not appear to have any real view on war. He opposes international structures and organizations and traditions designed to prevent war, we know that. He bulls through good policy and does what he wants and creates greater risk of war, we know that.
The only reason to think he doesn't want war is that he seems to think people don't want war. His base doesn't want it, he doesn't want it. If he says something bellicose and the polls come back bad, he doesn't like that and denies he said it.
Has Trump ever said anything positive or negative about Khameini? He has said loads about Putin, KJU, Maduro, Duterte, Bolsanaro, Xi... he likely doesn't think about Khameini at all because he probably doesn't think Americans care about him or knows who he is.
Same guy said 'Who's that?' when Macron brought up the negotiations his nuke deal negotiator Brian Hook had been doing for a year.
Trump could dislike a war today and like it tomorrow if a US ship is hit. There's nothing inherently pro-war or anti-war about him. He could make anti-war noises and then cause a false sense of security by Iran to push the envelope over and over again, and then feel personally offended by something that Khameini told Abe and then sell sophisticated arms to MSB. Anything can happen.
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ren hoek
Footballguy
These are heady days for casino billionaire and megadonor Sheldon Adelson.
A passionate and hawkish advocate for Israel with close ties to its prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, Adelson was in Jerusalem today for a celebration of the U.S. embassy’s relocation to that city, a longstanding priority for the mogul. Similarly, Adelson had pushed hard for President Donald Trump to pull out of the Iran nuclear deal, which happened last week.
And the day after that announcement, Adelson quietly slipped into the White House for a private meeting with Trump and three top administration officials: Vice President Mike Pence, Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin and an Adelson favorite, National Security Adviser John Bolton, according to two conservative sources familiar with the previously unreported private event.
Both the embassy move and the withdrawal from the 2015 pact that coupled the lifting of sanctions on Iran in exchange for Tehran’s dismantling of its nuclear program have sparked controversy and criticism from some key American allies. On Monday, Palestinian officials said at least 52 Palestinians were killed by Israelis as they tried to break through a fence separating Gaza and Israel, in part to protest the embassy's relocation. The White House actions partially are testament to Adelson’s clout and that of like-minded pro-Israel conservatives, many observers believe. //
But Adelson’s cash also helped elect Trump — even though during the campaign Trump often asserted his independence of big donors to portray himself as a self-styled populist.
“I don’t need anybody’s money,” he said in mid-June 2015. “I’m using my own money…I’m really rich.”
In 2016, Adelson gave almost $83 million in publicly disclosed funds to Republican groups and candidates, including $20 million to Future 45, a super PAC that backed Trump. He also threw in a record $5 million to the inaugural committee, according to the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics.
During the inaugural parties last January, Adelson received a special shout-out from the president himself.
At one big inaugural gala, Trump thanked Adelson publicly for donating, along with his wife, an Israeli-born physician, $120 million to numerous outside groups and candidates in 2016 to help put him in the White House and keep the GOP majority in Congress, two people who heard the remarks told McClatchy. The larger figure likely includes funds given by Adelson to politically active nonprofit groups that don’t have to disclose their donors.
Still, Adelson and his allies had to keep up the pressure on Trump to achieve both of their recent successes. Adelson was upset that Trump didn’t act to move the embassy early on in his tenure, as he’d pledged during the campaign. Likewise, Trump took a long time to decide to pull out of the Iran nuclear deal.
But the Las Vegas billionaire — currently rated the 16th richest man in the world with a net worth of $42. 5 billion, according to Forbes — isn’t shy about expressing his views to political heavyweights; at one point, he even offered to help pay for construction of a new embassy building if Trump made the move.
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article211098039.html
A passionate and hawkish advocate for Israel with close ties to its prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, Adelson was in Jerusalem today for a celebration of the U.S. embassy’s relocation to that city, a longstanding priority for the mogul. Similarly, Adelson had pushed hard for President Donald Trump to pull out of the Iran nuclear deal, which happened last week.
And the day after that announcement, Adelson quietly slipped into the White House for a private meeting with Trump and three top administration officials: Vice President Mike Pence, Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin and an Adelson favorite, National Security Adviser John Bolton, according to two conservative sources familiar with the previously unreported private event.
Both the embassy move and the withdrawal from the 2015 pact that coupled the lifting of sanctions on Iran in exchange for Tehran’s dismantling of its nuclear program have sparked controversy and criticism from some key American allies. On Monday, Palestinian officials said at least 52 Palestinians were killed by Israelis as they tried to break through a fence separating Gaza and Israel, in part to protest the embassy's relocation. The White House actions partially are testament to Adelson’s clout and that of like-minded pro-Israel conservatives, many observers believe. //
But Adelson’s cash also helped elect Trump — even though during the campaign Trump often asserted his independence of big donors to portray himself as a self-styled populist.
“I don’t need anybody’s money,” he said in mid-June 2015. “I’m using my own money…I’m really rich.”
In 2016, Adelson gave almost $83 million in publicly disclosed funds to Republican groups and candidates, including $20 million to Future 45, a super PAC that backed Trump. He also threw in a record $5 million to the inaugural committee, according to the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics.
During the inaugural parties last January, Adelson received a special shout-out from the president himself.
At one big inaugural gala, Trump thanked Adelson publicly for donating, along with his wife, an Israeli-born physician, $120 million to numerous outside groups and candidates in 2016 to help put him in the White House and keep the GOP majority in Congress, two people who heard the remarks told McClatchy. The larger figure likely includes funds given by Adelson to politically active nonprofit groups that don’t have to disclose their donors.
Still, Adelson and his allies had to keep up the pressure on Trump to achieve both of their recent successes. Adelson was upset that Trump didn’t act to move the embassy early on in his tenure, as he’d pledged during the campaign. Likewise, Trump took a long time to decide to pull out of the Iran nuclear deal.
But the Las Vegas billionaire — currently rated the 16th richest man in the world with a net worth of $42. 5 billion, according to Forbes — isn’t shy about expressing his views to political heavyweights; at one point, he even offered to help pay for construction of a new embassy building if Trump made the move.
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article211098039.html
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I have a question - why do you think Trump supporters are so enthusiastic about these moves? Clearly it's not zionism.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Some of them have also supported the Assange indictments (after being rightly on his side), escalation with NK because it was "spicy," de-escalation with NK because he's 'shaking it up' or whatever, I mean the dyed in the wool true believers will support anything he does.
The same thing happened with Bush, Obama, etc. It's really not new imo.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
Did he mention how Iran has attacked the US in the first place (for it to be retaliatory)?
The "Front Altair" flies Marshall Island flag and is owned by Frontline, a company listed in Bermuda, mostly owned by a Norwegian. The cargo was going to Taiwan
The "Kokuka Courageous" flies the Panamanian flag and is owned by a Japanese company. The cargo was going to Singapore.
I struggle to see how the US has been attacked by whomever is behind this
ren hoek
Footballguy
Big shocker: resistance hero and total fraud Adam Schiff says there's "no question" and "strong evidence" Iran was behind the attacks.
His pretend resistance to Trump the past few years over fake Russia fairytale nonsense while raking in cash from the same defense contractors that sponsor Trump, meanwhile voting over and over again to give Trump's DOD a blank check for endless war is some next-level grifting.
His pretend resistance to Trump the past few years over fake Russia fairytale nonsense while raking in cash from the same defense contractors that sponsor Trump, meanwhile voting over and over again to give Trump's DOD a blank check for endless war is some next-level grifting.
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ren hoek
Footballguy
The US government claimed without evidence that Iran was responsible for supposed “attacks” on the vessels. Trump administration officials accused Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) of damaging a Japanese tanker with a mine.
But by the morning of Friday, June 14, the narrative had been debunked, with the Japanese cargo company Kokuka Sangyo telling journalists that the US government’s version of the story was simply bogus.
“The crew is saying that it was hit by a flying object,” explained the president of the company, Yutaka Katada. “They are saying that something came flying.”
“To put a bomb on the side is something that we are not thinking,” he added, in comments at a press conference.
The US military published video of what it claims is an Iranian boat crew removing an unexploded mine from the hull of the Japanese tanker Kokuka Courageous.
But the company’s president insisted in remarks reported by Reuters that it was not an Iranian mine but rather two “flying objects” that damaged the ship.
“The crew told us something came flying at the ship, and they found a hole,” Katada reiterated. “Then some crew witnessed the second shot.”
US gov narrative blaming Iran for oil tanker attacks falls apart in hours
But by the morning of Friday, June 14, the narrative had been debunked, with the Japanese cargo company Kokuka Sangyo telling journalists that the US government’s version of the story was simply bogus.
“The crew is saying that it was hit by a flying object,” explained the president of the company, Yutaka Katada. “They are saying that something came flying.”
“To put a bomb on the side is something that we are not thinking,” he added, in comments at a press conference.
The US military published video of what it claims is an Iranian boat crew removing an unexploded mine from the hull of the Japanese tanker Kokuka Courageous.
But the company’s president insisted in remarks reported by Reuters that it was not an Iranian mine but rather two “flying objects” that damaged the ship.
“The crew told us something came flying at the ship, and they found a hole,” Katada reiterated. “Then some crew witnessed the second shot.”
US gov narrative blaming Iran for oil tanker attacks falls apart in hours
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Well, let's put this way. We had the Maine incident, which ostensibly was an attack by Spain on a US ship, and we had the Tonkin incident, which ostensibly was an attack by North Vietnam on a US ship...msommer said:
...and following Cotton's logic we have the Hormuz incident which ostensibly was an attack on a Japanese ship which {checking notes here...} is an attack on the US.
Jobber
Footballguy
Whether it be our allies, adversaries, or our own corporations, nobody knows where this administration stands today vs tomorrow. We are a joke.
msommer
Footballguy
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Gee another gop pres....and here we are about to go tp another war in the mid east....still waiting on saddams wmd to show up
ren hoek
Footballguy
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
"It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell."
~William Tecumseh Sherman~
~William Tecumseh Sherman~
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
- Iran Air Flight 655 was a scheduled passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai, via Bandar Abbas, that was shot down on 3 July 1988 by an SM-2MR surface-to-air missile fired from USS Vincennes, a guided missile cruiser of the United States Navy.
- The aircraft, an Airbus A300, was destroyed, and all 290 people on board, including 66 children, were killed. The jet was hit while flying over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, along the flight's usual route
- Vincennes had entered Iranian territory after one of its helicopters drew warning fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits.
- "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident..." As part of the settlement, even though the U.S. government did not admit legal liability or formally apologize to Iran, it still agreed to pay US$61.8 million on an ex gratia basis, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.[
- In 1990, Capt. Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit decoration "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the Commanding Officer of the Vincennes, and the citation made no mention of the downing of Iran Air 655.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
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Americans have conveniently forgotten about this horrific incident. https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2017/07/03/the-forgotten-us-shootdown-of-iranian-airliner-flight-655/
- Iran Air Flight 655 was a scheduled passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai, via Bandar Abbas, that was shot down on 3 July 1988 by an SM-2MR surface-to-air missile fired from USS Vincennes, a guided missile cruiser of the United States Navy.
- The aircraft, an Airbus A300, was destroyed, and all 290 people on board, including 66 children, were killed. The jet was hit while flying over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, along the flight's usual route
- Vincennes had entered Iranian territory after one of its helicopters drew warning fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits.
- "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident..." As part of the settlement, even though the U.S. government did not admit legal liability or formally apologize to Iran, it still agreed to pay US$61.8 million on an ex gratia basis, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.[
- In 1990, Capt. Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit decoration "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the Commanding Officer of the Vincennes, and the citation made no mention of the downing of Iran Air 655.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
badmojo1006
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Iran passes the threshold set in the agreement which means the current approach isn't working and we are worse off today as a global community than we were just two years ago. Sanctions aren't slowing them in any meaningful way and they continue to move forward.
Raise your hand if you didn't see this coming.
Raise your hand if you didn't see this coming.
msommer
Footballguy
It remains to be seen what the remaining signatories (the EU, at least) will do now. They may choose to renew the sanctions that the deal made obsolete. Not sure that will happen now for various reasons, though.
timschochet
Footballguy
This is what is going to happen.
1. We are going to accept Iran as a nation with nuclear weapons.
2. We are going to accept North Korea as a nation with nuclear weapons.
This is tremendously concerning for the future of the planet. Perhaps both was always inevitable but at least in the case of Iran we might have been able to delay this outcome for decades, perhaps. We screwed up. All of that effort by Obama and Hillary completely down the drain, tossed away for short term political goals.
And yeah I’m ####### pissed. And I know who to blame.
1. We are going to accept Iran as a nation with nuclear weapons.
2. We are going to accept North Korea as a nation with nuclear weapons.
This is tremendously concerning for the future of the planet. Perhaps both was always inevitable but at least in the case of Iran we might have been able to delay this outcome for decades, perhaps. We screwed up. All of that effort by Obama and Hillary completely down the drain, tossed away for short term political goals.
And yeah I’m ####### pissed. And I know who to blame.
There's still hope with the 2020 election. Maybe this accelerates the world's independence from the dollar, which is even worse for the USA.
Would Iran and Israel become MAD partners, ala India and Pakistan?
More nuclear states is bad. At one point, Trump suggested Japan and SK should have nukes and their own nuclear umbrella. Pakistan worries me as much as Iran.
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msommer
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
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Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
The Iran deal that the Obama administration negotiated, that Trump tore up, isn't working. THANKS OBAMA!!
Gopher State
Footballguy
Well we shot down one of their drones today, so we’re even
Most Iranians wouldn't agree. Remember Flight 655, in which 290 innocent Iranians were killed by a missile from the USS Vincennes.
Gopher State
Footballguy
The Z Machine
Footballguy
So, what's the end goal for Western imperialism?ren hoek said:
msommer
Footballguy
And who is actually doing the Western Imperialism?
What does it mean to be in the crosshairs of WI?
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Meanwhile the President blabs all over twitter about it.
It's sad what's going on, so stupid and a betrayal of people who are our allies there. At a minimum I'm guessing these were pro-democracy folks or at least critics of the government.
ren hoek
Footballguy
https://twitter.com/tomgara/status/1169289821774405633
Amazing the stuff that doesn’t even register a blip in the news anymore: US state dept offered multimillion dollar bribe to captain of Iranian oil tanker if he would divert the ship to a country where the US could seize it.
Then appeared to threaten the captain if he didn’t.
Amazing the stuff that doesn’t even register a blip in the news anymore: US state dept offered multimillion dollar bribe to captain of Iranian oil tanker if he would divert the ship to a country where the US could seize it.
Then appeared to threaten the captain if he didn’t.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
It is the worst, and the dumbest, administration I can recall.
Link to the FT article:
https://www.ft.com/content/20188064-cefb-11e9-99a4-b5ded7a7fe3f
ren hoek
Footballguy
Just abhorrent. I mean it’s actually repulsive that they’d have the nerve to label it ‘illicit oil’. What? How is it illicit for a country to trade oil with another country.
Kind of an interesting note here, not to make it a Hillary thing either, Clinton also wanted to designate the IRGC as a terrorist organization back in 2007. Pompeo saying IRAN is the one that can’t be trusted.
The absolute gall of these people, it’s unreal. I keep trying to understand why the US pursues policy like this. I imagine it must be a confluence of US oil interests and pro-Israel/anti-Iranian regime changers. Very dark times.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Punxsutawney Phil
Footballguy
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