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Is Debo/c Patterson usage going to change the NFL. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter The Dude
- Start date
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I'd like to see people like CMC who have been abused with over usage since he arrived, he should be given a chance to line up and just catch the ball for a few weeks and not take the pounding of running the football every other snap.
TampaMike19
Footballguy
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
No. But I was one of the very few who said Patterson should be moved to RB after his rookie season. How it took all these years for a coach to do it is pretty amazing. A lot of them have zero creativity. It's taking a long time but teams need to start looking for people who think outside the box and adapt. I think that's the hoodies greatest strength but the thing other coaches (especially his owne) try to copy the least.
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King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Don’t love it for Deebo’s longevity. But NFL coaches are paid to win games so they will stick players wherever they can get the best results.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Deebo is a load to take down but already is injury prone. I'm shocked they're burning him like this
Save the runs for big spots
As far as a trend, Deebo, and to a lesser extent Cordarelle are absolute freaks. If you have a freak who's maybe not running crisp routes, get the ball in their hands so I could see that being a trend. But we have to acknowledge the player, not the role, is driving success here.
They both kind of remind me of Jabril Peppers, too big to be a safety, too small to be a linebacker but a great hybrid piece for the chessboard if you can use them properly. It took Paterson nearly 10 years to find that.
Save the runs for big spots
As far as a trend, Deebo, and to a lesser extent Cordarelle are absolute freaks. If you have a freak who's maybe not running crisp routes, get the ball in their hands so I could see that being a trend. But we have to acknowledge the player, not the role, is driving success here.
They both kind of remind me of Jabril Peppers, too big to be a safety, too small to be a linebacker but a great hybrid piece for the chessboard if you can use them properly. It took Paterson nearly 10 years to find that.
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BladeRunner
Footballguy
This. Seems like a very stupid decision by coaching staffs to subject their #1 WR to that type of beating. This is akin to making your #1 WR the kick and punt returner. Deebo was already having a problem staying healthy simply as a WR. Now you want to subject him to the beating of an NFL running back?
Hence, you get what happened yesterday with Deebo - injured. Who really thought Deebo was going to last doing this? The good news is I have Kittle so this works out for me. Let Deebo take ALL of the RB snaps!
To be honest, any NFL head coach that's dumb enough to do this deserves everything they get. There's a reason why you draft and pay RBs to run the ball and not WRs.
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ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Relevant question: Why would players want to be the next Deebo/CPat? WRs are one of the higher valued positions in football (if QB is Tier 1 all by itself and edge rusher is Tier 2, WR is probably up there with CB/OT for Tier 3). RBs, meanwhile, are one of the lowest valued. So you have a greater risk of injury and a lower pay grade. I get that these guys all want to do what it takes to win, etc., but long-term I expect you'll see a lot of pushback if top WR prospects get overused as RBs.
TampaMike19
Footballguy
I would think that the Deebo gameplan would make it so that average WR's can thrive since defenses cannot double WR's or have 2 high safeties anymore
This Deebo / CPAT gameplan pretty much nukes 2 high safeties and the NFL has gone too far in the pass defense mode. Now teams with physicality are winning games or close to winning games with it. Even the Broncos won a game yesterday because Javonte is a load to bring down and Gordon comes in with some shiftiness.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I was just going to say - Patterson missed a couple of games. Deebo just hurt his groin.
Even larger WRs aren't built like RBs. There's a world of difference between the type and frequency of contact a WR takes vs the type and frequency of contact a RB takes.
Also, teams would have to have a Deebo or a Patterson - they are rare players with size/speed combination that works for those type of plays.
Other teams have run WRs on end arounds or push pass type plays to get them in motion/use them like a hybrid - this was expected to be partly Curtis Samuel's role in WAS this year IIRC.
So no - I don't see it changing the game. Coaches/OCs have to be willing to use their players like this & not every coach is this creative, and they have to have the personnel to make it work.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Maybe not even that.
I think the question was in the spirit of how Steph Curry has changed the NBA - but like Steph, the fundamental game has not changed. Steph is a special player for more than his ridiculous ability to hit deep 3s. So he hasn't really changed the NBA that much other than being Steph Curry. Might he inspire a new generation of players who model their game in his image? Maybe. But as @ignatiusjreilly says, in the NFL this would actually be a disadvantage for both salary & injury risk
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ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Countering my own point a little, what are they going to do about it? We saw with Lev Bell what happens when players try to exercise leverage when they have none. Realistically, how would it play out if a WR tried to push back on his usage?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Or, assuming Pitts develops into that "next gen" TE everyone expects (once ATL has more weapons around him) what if he pushes back on his TE designation?
I have no idea - most WRs are going to say "whatever it takes to win!" - I've seen interviews with WRs who return kicks. They know it's more dangerous. They don't seem to be too concerned about it. Devin Hester certainly wasn't going to get paid for being an elite WR, so he leveraged his skill set to that advantage. But what about someone like Bateman? I am shocked every time I see Baltimore put him in harm's way on a PR/KR - it's madness. Here's a team that's struggled to have success at the WR position for what seems like forever, and they finally get a dude who looks the part above & beyond what they have in Hollywood, and they have him returning kicks? When his rookie contract is up, assuming good health & continued development, can Bateman say, "OK, I'll sign the new deal, but I won't return kicks"? Would he be labelled a non-team payer? All slightly off-topic, but definitely related.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Change the NFL? No.
Change some teams that lack in certain areas? Possibly.
Only way it changes the NFL is if "it" wins it all... convincingly.
Look at the list of Super Bowl champions... playing sound, fundamental football... good defense and traditional "pro-style" offense still brings home the title (always has).
Change some teams that lack in certain areas? Possibly.
Only way it changes the NFL is if "it" wins it all... convincingly.
Look at the list of Super Bowl champions... playing sound, fundamental football... good defense and traditional "pro-style" offense still brings home the title (always has).
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Exactly. The 2021 New England Patriots are not a particularly dynamic or explosive offense. But they do play sound, ball-control offense and have built a true bully on defense. They can disrupt even the best offenses in the NFL.
That's why they're likely headed to the playoffs with a rookie QB. Nothing against Jones - he's a fine young QB. But his ceiling seems limited. Doesn't matter in NE. He's not losing them games. See: Stafford's recent pick-6 trend.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Patriots are amazing to me in that, as you describe, they are the "big fundamental"... all they do is win. From coaching, philosophy on paying players, to approach to the game... THIS is the "trend" other teams should be trying to copy. WRs playing RB just means that you'll be overspending on more RBs... which is a very proven way to NOT win a title.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
And spending MORE on WRs because your WRs acting as a RB is going to get them injured (they always do).
Which is weird, because when you train all your life to be a WR that should translate to RB seamlessly.
WRs playing RB is nothing but a gimmick. Just like quarterbacks who run. Shanahan is using Deebo like this to save his job, IMO.
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wgoldsph
Footballguy
Lamar Jackson carrying his team is a gimmick? Steve Young was a gimmick?And spending MORE on WRs because your WRs acting as a RB is going to get them injured (they always do).
Which is weird, because when you train all your life to be a WR that should translate to RB seamlessly.
WRs playing RB is nothing but a gimmick. Just like quarterbacks who run. Shanahan is using Deebo like this to save his job, IMO.
Using your best player in a way that the other team doesn't expect and that they can excell in isn't a gimmick, it's smart strategy. The problem for other teams is that there's only a handful of guys who can play the wr/rb hybrid well, and a lot of square pegs are going to be jammed into round holes.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Let me clarify, QBs who always run are gimmicks. They run because they can't pass. Young used running to supplement his passing game, not passed to supplement his running game. Invariably, the running QB will always find a reason to call his number to run to cover up for the fact that he can't pass.
Jackson still can't pass but I will admit he's gotten better. he's not taking off at the first sign of trouble as much as he used to.
Some others:
- Colin Capernick
- Vince Young
- Michael Vick
Using your best player occasionally to throw a wrinkle in the game or to win when the game is on the line. Using him constantly as a RB is a gimmick.
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Dizzy
Footballguy
Lamar Jackson hasn't won anything yet.
Steve Young had these guys... Ricky Watters, Jerry Rice, Terrell Owens, others.
These two are not comparable IMO. Steve Young is bettered compared (in modern terms) to Russell Wilson.
I agree that the Ravens have designed a scheme around a QB with elite running ability. I guess we'll see which comes first - Lamar wins a Lombardi, or he loses a gear and it starts to unravel.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Ultimately these guys are exposed once NFL defenses catch on OR they lose that running ability due to injury or age. Then we see how bad of QBs they really are.
NFL Teams should be drafting QBs to pass the ball first. Running should be secondary to their game.
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wgoldsph
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
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wgoldsph
Footballguy
I was talking about winning a superbowl being the measure of success at qb.Eli wasn't a running QB.
Dizzy
Footballguy
What argument?
And YES... ELi was obviously a good QB... maybe the best in NY football history.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Fully with you. Cam Newton was going to change the game too. After a few wild years as the best goal line back in the NFL... he was washed as a QB before his time.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
This already happened a few years ago with Jimmy Graham. Saints wanted to tag him as a TE; he took them to arbitration arguing that based on his usage, he was effectively a WR. As I recall, one argument the team made was that his Twitter bio referred to himself as a tight end, which prompted Jordan Cameron to change his own Twitter bio to "All-Pro pass catcher for Cleveland Browns". In the end, the arbitrator ruled against Graham.
The problem for the players is that if a certain usage/alignment helps teams win games, they will do it, and there won't be much players can do to stop them. I suppose if one team becomes particularly identified with that usage, players could avoid them in free agency or their agents could try to warn those teams against drafting that type of WR. But ultimately, if it's successful every team will want to get "their own Deebo" and the players will be out of options.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
I agree in general that they're running him too much but you think a random groin injury was caused by running with the ball? Bit of a stretch.
