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Is this "weak"? (1 Viewer)

Cjw_55106

Cjw_55106

Footballguy
14 year old state tournament baseball this weekend. My son's team noticed the opposition was using an illegal bat. Our coach decided not to say anything unless it mattered. We were up 1-0 in the sixth inning (we play seven) and with two outs, they hit a two run homer with said illegal bat. Our coach protests, the umps get together and decide the bag is indeed illegal and the batter is out and the two runs are taken off the board. My BIL says our coaches move was "weak" and if he had an issue with an illegal bat, he should have said something before the game or when it was first noticed. My take is obviously different as I feel one team was cheating and the other wasn't. In fact, not only do I disagree about it being "weak", I think it was rather brilliant. Am I off base here?

 
The rule on the books says the batter is out, not that you get to erase their most important hit and replace it with an out. So I'd say it's legal but unethical.

Teaching kids to take advantage of loopholes like this is pretty sketchy too,

If this was professional sports then hey do what you have to do. But this is 14 year olds. Weak.

 
Weak. If it's cheating, it's cheating all the time.

The kid probably would have still hit the home run with a different bat.

 
bostonfred said:
The rule on the books says the batter is out, not that you get to erase their most important hit and replace it with an out. So I'd say it's legal but unethical.

Teaching kids to take advantage of loopholes like this is pretty sketchy too,

If this was professional sports then hey do what you have to do. But this is 14 year olds. Weak.
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Well if the batter is out, his previous hit doesn't count so....in any case, protesting an illegal bat is hardly a "loophole". Bats are illegal for a reason.
 
Cjw_55106 said:
bostonfred said:
The rule on the books says the batter is out, not that you get to erase their most important hit and replace it with an out. So I'd say it's legal but unethical.

Teaching kids to take advantage of loopholes like this is pretty sketchy too,

If this was professional sports then hey do what you have to do. But this is 14 year olds. Weak.
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Well if the batter is out, his previous hit doesn't count so....in any case, protesting an illegal bat is hardly a "loophole". Bats are illegal for a reason.
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And their legality doesn't change. Should have pointed it out when noticed or not at all. Weak.

 
I can say the other team didn't complain. They knew they were cheating. Only one person was complaining loudly, a dad in he stands. His defense? A bat is a bat, what's the difference?

 
Abraham said:
Cjw_55106 said:
bostonfred said:
The rule on the books says the batter is out, not that you get to erase their most important hit and replace it with an out. So I'd say it's legal but unethical.

Teaching kids to take advantage of loopholes like this is pretty sketchy too,

If this was professional sports then hey do what you have to do. But this is 14 year olds. Weak.
Click to expand...
Well if the batter is out, his previous hit doesn't count so....in any case, protesting an illegal bat is hardly a "loophole". Bats are illegal for a reason.
Click to expand...
And their legality doesn't change. Should have pointed it out when noticed or not at all. Weak.
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Thats fine, I understand. I don't agree, but I get it.
 
My thing is this: far too many people stick to their principles when it is convenient and not all the time. It's infuriating. I work with a guy who always "does the right thing" except when he's behind on his sales number and there is enough of a shade of grey to interpret something to his advantage. If the coach knew it was an illegal bat then deciding to do nothing "unless it mattered" is the same -- the worst possible decision. It is unfair to his players to think they have a hole card in a special circumstance other than their own play. It is unfair to the other team, who is being allowed to proceed as if normal but will be penalized if it suits the opposition's need. And even if it were neither of those things it would still be the worst possible outcome because it shows the coach is indecisive and cares not for the integrity of the game but for finding an edge that has nothing to do with his own team's play. However, given the state of youth sports I am not the least bit surprised.

 
Abraham said:
My thing is this: far too many people stick to their principles when it is convenient and not all the time. It's infuriating. I work with a guy who always "does the right thing" except when he's behind on his sales number and there is enough of a shade of grey to interpret something to his advantage. If the coach knew it was an illegal bat then deciding to do nothing "unless it mattered" is the same -- the worst possible decision. It is unfair to his players to think they have a hole card in a special circumstance other than their own play. It is unfair to the other team, who is being allowed to proceed as if normal but will be penalized if it suits the opposition's need. And even if it were neither of those things it would still be the worst possible outcome because it shows the coach is indecisive and cares not for the integrity of the game but for finding an edge that has nothing to do with his own team's play. However, given the state of youth sports I am not the least bit surprised.
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I was going to make a long winded post, But Abraham summed it up spot on.

 
if this were a pole, the numbers would be stacked in the "weak" side.

but the OP obviously doesn't have a problem with it, so :shrug: not sure why the question is being asked.

 
The bat is illegal because it provides some advantage. The opposition knows this and used it anyway. They were cheating. **** them.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
It's unfair to the team that is knowingly cheating. Got it.
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Seems like someone isn't getting the desired responses to his original post.

Two wrongs don't make a right. By all means the minute they bring that bat into the game protest the bat. Nothing wrong with that. To wait to use it as an ace in the hole is Weaksauce.

 
Abraham said:
My thing is this: far too many people stick to their principles when it is convenient and not all the time. It's infuriating. I work with a guy who always "does the right thing" except when he's behind on his sales number and there is enough of a shade of grey to interpret something to his advantage. If the coach knew it was an illegal bat then deciding to do nothing "unless it mattered" is the same -- the worst possible decision. It is unfair to his players to think they have a hole card in a special circumstance other than their own play. It is unfair to the other team, who is being allowed to proceed as if normal but will be penalized if it suits the opposition's need. And even if it were neither of those things it would still be the worst possible outcome because it shows the coach is indecisive and cares not for the integrity of the game but for finding an edge that has nothing to do with his own team's play. However, given the state of youth sports I am not the least bit surprised.
Click to expand...
El Floppo said:
if this were a pole, the numbers would be stacked in the "weak" side.

but the OP obviously doesn't have a problem with it, so :shrug: not sure why the question is being asked.
Click to expand...
These two things.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
It's unfair to the team that is knowingly cheating. Got it.
Click to expand...
No, its unfair to the kids on the team that reported them. They had a chance to win the game and beat the cheaters fair and square. Instead their coach used this to their advantage and taught the kids that that's more important than winning in the merit of their own ability. The lesson it teaches is that when you're facing an uphill battle, you should look for ways that the opponent is cheating, and ways that you can take short cuts to overcome the long odds.

"We're entitled to an extra out. Actually more than that we're entitled to take their best hit off the books too. That's what's really fair."

 
Very weak. What Abraham said! Teaching the kids all the wrong lessons, that it is more important to win than to have integrity. Both team's coaches should not be coaching.

 
The Ref said:
Cjw_55106 said:
It's unfair to the team that is knowingly cheating. Got it.
Click to expand...
Seems like someone isn't getting the desired responses to his original post.

Two wrongs don't make a right. By all means the minute they bring that bat into the game protest the bat. Nothing wrong with that. To wait to use it as an ace in the hole is

Weaksauce.
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Exactly, as soon as the first kid is up with the illegal bat you point it out to the ump before a pitch is thrown. Either that or you pull the other coach aside and tell him not to use it. I don't see any other proper way to handle the situation.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
bostonfred said:
The rule on the books says the batter is out, not that you get to erase their most important hit and replace it with an out. So I'd say it's legal but unethical.

Teaching kids to take advantage of loopholes like this is pretty sketchy too,

If this was professional sports then hey do what you have to do. But this is 14 year olds. Weak.
Click to expand...
Well if the batter is out, his previous hit doesn't count so....in any case, protesting an illegal bat is hardly a "loophole". Bats are illegal for a reason.
Click to expand...
In what way was the bat illegal?

 
Fennis said:
Cjw_55106 said:
bostonfred said:
The rule on the books says the batter is out, not that you get to erase their most important hit and replace it with an out. So I'd say it's legal but unethical.

Teaching kids to take advantage of loopholes like this is pretty sketchy too,

If this was professional sports then hey do what you have to do. But this is 14 year olds. Weak.
Click to expand...
Well if the batter is out, his previous hit doesn't count so....in any case, protesting an illegal bat is hardly a "loophole". Bats are illegal for a reason.
Click to expand...
In what way was the bat illegal?
Click to expand...
TypicLly it's a matter of weight or length or both. In this case, however, I'm imagining it was made of flubber and the home run in question barely cleared the fence...thus the need to challenge its legality.

 
It's not only weak, but by letting the team play with the bat "until it mattered" he jeopardized the safety of kids. And that makes it borderline criminal.

About 15-20 years ago they developed composite softball bats like the Miken Ultra. They balls flew off the bats and average sized guys like me started hitting 350 foot homeruns. It was fun. Until people started getting killed. Leagues banned the bats, and then players started to paint bats to conceal them. They also started end loading bats illegally by inserting weights in the end cap. I played in a game once again the New England Sports Plex - I was catching - and a guy hit a line drive right off the pitcher's face. They guy never even got his glove in an upward motion. Worst thing I've ever seen.

Illegal bats are illegal for a reason - because they aren't safe. The team deserved to be punished for using an illegal bat, but your coach was a horse's ### for letting it be used until something big happened.

 
I would vote weak.

However, at the same time, I don't feel badly for the team getting called on it. They likely used that bat in earlier games and gained whatever advantage as a result. Had the coach not noticed, they may have "cheated" their way through the entire tournament. If the coach had called them on it at the start of the game and the consequence would have just been to not use the bat, then there's essentially no penalty for this form of cheating.

Now, if there was a rule in place that would actually penalize them in some form for trying to use the illegal bat (i.e., the first batter that tries to use it when caught is removed from the game), then great. If not, then I can understand why the coach may have waited to say something as a way of determining his own penalization. Weak, but I get it.

What's interesting to me is that if this had happened in a pro sports game, no one would have an issue with it. We'd probably feel the same about a college game. In a 6 year old game, then this clearly would be awful. So, at what age do we draw the line? To me, 14 years old is getting pretty close to it since these kids 1) probably take this seriously enough for it to matter and 2) probably were aware that they were using an illegal bat.

I wouldn't have done what the coach did but I understand.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I make this statement assuming this "illegal" bat is illegal because its too "hot" or whatever for the age group.

The safety of the kid pitching or playing 3B against this illegal bat wasn't enough of a reason to protest it earlier?

 
General Tso said:
It's not only weak, but by letting the team play with the bat "until it mattered" he jeopardized the safety of kids. And that makes it borderline criminal.

About 15-20 years ago they developed composite softball bats like the Miken Ultra. They balls flew off the bats and average sized guys like me started hitting 350 foot homeruns. It was fun. Until people started getting killed. Leagues banned the bats, and then players started to paint bats to conceal them. They also started end loading bats illegally by inserting weights in the end cap. I played in a game once again the New England Sports Plex - I was catching - and a guy hit a line drive right off the pitcher's face. They guy never even got his glove in an upward motion. Worst thing I've ever seen.

Illegal bats are illegal for a reason - because they aren't safe. The team deserved to be punished for using an illegal bat, but your coach was a horse's ### for letting it be used until something big happened.
Click to expand...
Wait, what?
 
General Tso said:
It's not only weak, but by letting the team play with the bat "until it mattered" he jeopardized the safety of kids. And that makes it borderline criminal.

About 15-20 years ago they developed composite softball bats like the Miken Ultra. They balls flew off the bats and average sized guys like me started hitting 350 foot homeruns. It was fun. Until people started getting killed. Leagues banned the bats, and then players started to paint bats to conceal them. They also started end loading bats illegally by inserting weights in the end cap. I played in a game once again the New England Sports Plex - I was catching - and a guy hit a line drive right off the pitcher's face. They guy never even got his glove in an upward motion. Worst thing I've ever seen.

Illegal bats are illegal for a reason - because they aren't safe. The team deserved to be punished for using an illegal bat, but your coach was a horse's ### for letting it be used until something big happened.
Click to expand...
This. What if the pitcher ate a line drive because of this bat. I'd be pissed if I knew a coach was aware of an illegal bat, didn't say anything, and my son was injured. Also why wasn't there bat inspection beforehand. In tournaments I've been involved in we've always had to line the bats up before the game and the ump inspected both teams for illegal bats? Did this not happen?

 
General Tso said:
It's not only weak, but by letting the team play with the bat "until it mattered" he jeopardized the safety of kids. And that makes it borderline criminal.

About 15-20 years ago they developed composite softball bats like the Miken Ultra. They balls flew off the bats and average sized guys like me started hitting 350 foot homeruns. It was fun. Until people started getting killed. Leagues banned the bats, and then players started to paint bats to conceal them. They also started end loading bats illegally by inserting weights in the end cap. I played in a game once again the New England Sports Plex - I was catching - and a guy hit a line drive right off the pitcher's face. They guy never even got his glove in an upward motion. Worst thing I've ever seen.

Illegal bats are illegal for a reason - because they aren't safe. The team deserved to be punished for using an illegal bat, but your coach was a horse's ### for letting it be used until something big happened.
Click to expand...
+1
 
The weakest part to me is how the coach freerolled the other team. He knew if they did anything good he had that ace up his sleeve. So they pretty much never had a shot at winning.

Might end up being the weakest thing I'll hear all year.

 
Extremely weak. Poor leadership and sportsmanship. As noted, if the bat is illegal because it hits harder, then also unethical to continue playing without regard for the safety of the fielders.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
It's unfair to the team that is knowingly cheating. Got it.
Click to expand...
You didn't ask if it we thought the other team cheating was ok. You asked us if the "move" your coach pulled was weak....and it was. You need to accept that. That's why you came and asked the question. To find out if you were right or wrong in your thinking. Stop confusing the issue by blaming the other team. Your team behaved just as badly as they did.

 
Very lame. It should be pointed out immediately so the game can be played fair and square. Now the win is tainted. It is a real Bush league move. Not a very good way to teach kids to learn. That said the other team should have known it was illegal and a bat can make a huge difference. I would rather win the game by playing better than the other team.

 
If an infielder got hurt with that bat during the game, the League and the Coaches who knew an illegal bat was in use would be subject to a lawsuit. http://www.khou.com/story/news/2014/07/23/12092212/. And if the injuries were serious enough, there could also be criminal charges brought.

This #### is no joke. About 10 years ago a girl in Hartford was killed by a line drive that hit her in the chest and stopped her heart. Just awful that a coach would put strategy above the safety of 14 year olds.

 
Psychopav said:
General Tso said:
It's not only weak, but by letting the team play with the bat "until it mattered" he jeopardized the safety of kids. And that makes it borderline criminal.

About 15-20 years ago they developed composite softball bats like the Miken Ultra. They balls flew off the bats and average sized guys like me started hitting 350 foot homeruns. It was fun. Until people started getting killed. Leagues banned the bats, and then players started to paint bats to conceal them. They also started end loading bats illegally by inserting weights in the end cap. I played in a game once again the New England Sports Plex - I was catching - and a guy hit a line drive right off the pitcher's face. They guy never even got his glove in an upward motion. Worst thing I've ever seen.

Illegal bats are illegal for a reason - because they aren't safe. The team deserved to be punished for using an illegal bat, but your coach was a horse's ### for letting it be used until something big happened.
Click to expand...
+1
Click to expand...
+2

Same point I was going to make, the coach put the safety of his players lower than his desire to maybe have an advantage at some point in the game.

Sucks.

 
In 1904, a Jewish u15 Fußball team in Berlin was caught using an illegal cleat length. Rather than immediately call attention to the misdeed, the opposing coach waited until a critical goal was scored. The goal was erased, the game appeared drained for a tie, but with seconds left, the coach who reported the foul put his hand on his chest and extended his arm straight out, calling an unusual eleven man bullrush which confused the opponent's Polish goaltender and scored the game winning goal. The boy who scored the goal was carried of the field by his teammates and became mesmerized as they chanted "goal Hitler". That boy's name? Mikel Hitler.

 
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