Is Tom Brady the greatest quarterback EVER? (1 Viewer)

[switz]

Manning only had Faulk and Addai (starting) for one yearBrady only had Moss for one year

Didnt the Colts have another running back that was pretty good as well? What was his name, Cliff or something?

I think you missed the point

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

by the time his career is over, he may have 5+ Super Bowl wins and it would be tough to argue that he isn't the best ever.

but, at this point, I think he just had his first All Pro season. too early to anoint him as the best of all time given all the great QBs we've seen in recent years. if you put guys like Montana, Elway, Marino, etc. in New England during the Brady era, how do you think they would have done?

 

[switz]

This idea that you can compare the talent of this years Colts with Brady's early years is absurd. I dont care who you are- Wayne/Addai doesnt compare with David Patton/Antowain Smith. Anybody who can throw 28 touchdowns to Troy Brown, Deon Branch, and David Patton is pretty damned amazing. Those guys are underrated, yes, but in the sense that they arent respected for what they did with a moderate level of talent. But there isnt a GM in the league that would think twice about choosing between Reggie Wayne over any WR Brady ever completed a pass to before this season. Thats not even worth arguing over. Manning loses ONE of his pro-bowl WRs and his defenders are acting like he's QBing the Dolphins all the sudden. Please.

Manning still outperformed Brady's "early years" this year.BTW, Troy Brown made the Pro Bowl, right? Corey Dillon did too, right? Woody?So Brady's best season prior to now came with a Pro Bowl WR, RB, and C.Funny, Manning this year had a Pro Bowl WR, RB, and C, and outperformed Brady's previously best season.I honestly hate this talent argument. The difference in talent between NFL players is miniscule. We are talking about the best of the best football players in the world, no matter what team (except maybe the Raiders )To say one player was on a team with less talent is really ridiculous.

 

[switz]

by the time his career is over, he may have 5+ Super Bowl wins and it would be tough to argue that he isn't the best ever.but, at this point, I think he just had his first All Pro season. too early to anoint him as the best of all time given all the great QBs we've seen in recent years. if you put guys like Montana, Elway, Marino, etc. in New England during the Brady era, how do you think they would have done?

Elway & Montana probably would have won more games. Marino would not have.

 

[twitch]

So, what does Brady do for an encore as a follow up to the 'greatest season ever' by a QB where he was named MVP and O Player of the Year? An NFL playoff record 26-28 at a 93% completion clip with 3 TDs, zero picks, and a great performance against a great team on a night when his team needed every single one of those passes completed. That's what someone who's deserving of the label 'best ever' does in a big game. He plays at an incredibly high level and gets it done. Does it mean he's the best ever? No. But it only pads his already impressive resume. He's got 2 more big games to play this season. If his team wins those, the list he'll then be a part of will be EXTREMELY short.

 

[mbuehner]

Manning still outperformed Brady's "early years" this year.BTW, Troy Brown made the Pro Bowl, right? Corey Dillon did too, right? Woody?

He should. He's a 10 year veteran with Reggie Wayne and Joseph Addai on his team. If he DIDNT outperform a 2nd year Brady with the cast he had it would be astonishing.

To say one player was on a team with less talent is really ridiculous.

What?! To say its not is what is ridiculous. Is there some reason the Dolphins were 1-15 this year? I mean, according to Switz Cleo Lemon had just as much talent as Tom Brady to work with...Again- nobody is going to mistake Troy Brown in his prime for Reggie Wayne in his prime. I love Troy Brown, classic overachiever. Heart as big as a lion. But Reggie Wayne is simply a much more gifted WR, and I have a distinct feeling that in the late hours of the night after a couple of bourbons and some honesty, Switz wouldnt pick Brown over Wayne either if he was building a team. No shame there- nobody in their right mind would.

 

[switz]

Manning still outperformed Brady's "early years" this year.BTW, Troy Brown made the Pro Bowl, right? Corey Dillon did too, right? Woody?

He should. He's a 10 year veteran with Reggie Wayne and Joseph Addai on his team. If he DIDNT outperform a 2nd year Brady with the cast he had it would be astonishing.

Except I'm not talking about his 2nd season And you're still trying to compare talent, yet for both their respective seasons they had an equal number of Pro Bowl calibre players starting on offense. But you conveniently ignore that.

To say one player was on a team with less talent is really ridiculous.

What?! To say its not is what is ridiculous. Is there some reason the Dolphins were 1-15 this year? I mean, according to Switz Cleo Lemon had just as much talent as Tom Brady to work with...Again- nobody is going to mistake Troy Brown in his prime for Reggie Wayne in his prime. I love Troy Brown, classic overachiever. Heart as big as a lion. But Reggie Wayne is simply a much more gifted WR, and I have a distinct feeling that in the late hours of the night after a couple of bourbons and some honesty, Switz wouldnt pick Brown over Wayne either if he was building a team. No shame there- nobody in their right mind would.

Again, your reading comprehension is down. The talent difference in the NFL really is miniscule. When averaged out, most teams have about equal talent.Coaching makes a huge difference.As for Wayne/Brown. They are totally different types of WRs. Brown is a slot style WR, where Wayne is an outside WR. So depending on your team needs, your choice may differ. Brown also could play STs, where Wayne doesn't. Brown has far better hands than Wayne. There are many areas where Brown is a better WR than Wayne. It's a shame you can't appreciate that.Most people would probably argue that Dillon was a better RB than Addai is as well.

 

[bostonfred]

As for Wayne/Brown. They are totally different types of WRs. Brown is a slot style WR, where Wayne is an outside WR. So depending on your team needs, your choice may differ. Brown also could play STs, where Wayne doesn't. Brown has far better hands than Wayne. There are many areas where Brown is a better WR than Wayne. It's a shame you can't appreciate that.Most people would probably argue that Dillon was a better RB than Addai is as well.

You're making irrelevant arguments again. Special teams numbers don't count towards the QB's passing numbers. A slot receiver's numbers will not contribute as much towards the QB's yards or TDs as an outside WR. Wayne this year is simply a better option than Brown ever was when it comes to the numbers that they will help their QB put up. Similarly, Dillon's receiving numbers were always low. Addai's, James', and Faulks' have all been much higher. Saying that Dillon is a better RB than Addai is only relevant if you feel that Dillon helped open up the passing game for Brady as much as Addai/James/Faulk, Clark/Pollard, Harrison/Wayne/Stokley/Gonzalez, and Glenn/Saturday/etc. have over the years. I don't understand your unwillingness to concede that Manning clearly had a massive advantage in surrounding offensive talent . It's almost like you know that there are very few arguments left for saying that Manning is the better QB, so you're hanging on to even the most absurd of them.

 

[bostonfred]

The thing is, Brady put up impressive numbers without anyone to throw to. Manning's never had anything short of a Pro Bowler and/or Hall of Famer at WR, a Pro Bowl TE, and a Pro Bowl running back. Prior to this season, Troy Brown is the only receiver who has ever had 1000 yards for Brady - or on any other team, for that matter.

And yet there is this year...

Right. As soon as Brady had anything resembling the offensive talent Manning had, he put up better numbers than Manning ever did. Even if you assume that Moss and co. are better than Harrison and co., which I know you do, the fact that this is their first year together, as opposed to Manning's offensive teammates who have stayed together for their entire careers, makes this accomplishment even more impressive. If you're talking about Manning's accomplishments this year, with only the pro bowl running back, TE and WR1, but without the hall of fame WR and pro bowl LT that he usually has, then you still have to concede that the offensive talent surrounding Manning this year is better than anything Brady had in prior years.

 

[Tough As Nails]

If the Pats win this year...the argument is over. OVER. Every single argument for somebody other than Brady will have to start with some sort of hypothetical. "Well...IF QB X had this..." or "IF Brady didn't..." or something like that. Brady has 1 thing left to do to put himself on the top. That's it.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

If the Pats win this year...the argument is over. OVER. Every single argument for somebody other than Brady will have to start with some sort of hypothetical. "Well...IF QB X had this..." or "IF Brady didn't..." or something like that. Brady has 1 thing left to do to put himself on the top. That's it.

why would a win this year put him so clearly ahead of Montana?

 

[switz]

As for Wayne/Brown. They are totally different types of WRs. Brown is a slot style WR, where Wayne is an outside WR. So depending on your team needs, your choice may differ. Brown also could play STs, where Wayne doesn't. Brown has far better hands than Wayne. There are many areas where Brown is a better WR than Wayne. It's a shame you can't appreciate that.Most people would probably argue that Dillon was a better RB than Addai is as well.

You're making irrelevant arguments again.

How so? The argument is that Brady didn't have talent on his offenses, yet when you look historically and compare who he had then with who Manning had this year, that argument fails.

Special teams numbers don't count towards the QB's passing numbers. A slot receiver's numbers will not contribute as much towards the QB's yards or TDs as an outside WR. Wayne this year is simply a better option than Brown ever was when it comes to the numbers that they will help their QB put up.

Really? Tell that to Wes Welker.

Similarly, Dillon's receiving numbers were always low. Addai's, James', and Faulks' have all been much higher. Saying that Dillon is a better RB than Addai is only relevant if you feel that Dillon helped open up the passing game for Brady as much as Addai/James/Faulk, Clark/Pollard, Harrison/Wayne/Stokley/Gonzalez, and Glenn/Saturday/etc. have over the years.

And you say my argument is irrelevant? You want to compare Dillon to what 11 players? How about comparing Dillon to his counterpart on the Colts, which this year was Addai. Or did Dillon play in a vacuum, and Woody and Brown weren't on the team?In '04 Brady had Dillon/KFaulk/Branch/Patton/Brown/Graham/Fauria/Woody which is pretty comparable to what Peyton had this year. Now the argument is that Manning has always had better talent, yet this year he still outperformed Brady's '04 season.My point is if you are going to use the "talent argument" then you also have to say after this year, when Manning had talent comparable to some other years of Brady, that he was better. And that the talent argument can't hold water anymore.

I don't understand your unwillingness to concede that Manning clearly had a massive advantage in surrounding offensive talent . It's almost like you know that there are very few arguments left for saying that Manning is the better QB, so you're hanging on to even the most absurd of them.

Really? I think there are quite a few arguments for Manning being a better QB.

 

[switz]

The thing is, Brady put up impressive numbers without anyone to throw to. Manning's never had anything short of a Pro Bowler and/or Hall of Famer at WR, a Pro Bowl TE, and a Pro Bowl running back. Prior to this season, Troy Brown is the only receiver who has ever had 1000 yards for Brady - or on any other team, for that matter.

And yet there is this year...

Right. As soon as Brady had anything resembling the offensive talent Manning had, he put up better numbers than Manning ever did. Even if you assume that Moss and co. are better than Harrison and co., which I know you do, the fact that this is their first year together, as opposed to Manning's offensive teammates who have stayed together for their entire careers, makes this accomplishment even more impressive.

You act like it's a question whether Brady's cast at WR this year is better than anything Manning ever had. Yes it is impressive that Brady could do this their first year together, but one of the things Brady's always been good at is using interchangeable components, to his credit.Still, Manning threw 49 TDs in 13.5 games with his cast, and Brady threw 48 in 15 with arguable the best WR to play the game ever. And Manning by attempt was on pace for 57, compared to Brady's 50. I guess one would never know, since Manning wasn't chasing the record, he was just playing.

If you're talking about Manning's accomplishments this year, with only the pro bowl running back, TE and WR1, but without the hall of fame WR and pro bowl LT that he usually has, then you still have to concede that the offensive talent surrounding Manning this year is better than anything Brady had in prior years.

But my point is I don't think that's so. In 2004, Brady had a very very comparable cast to what Manning had this season, especially considering Manning was playing with a rookie LT, an injured RB, and a rookie #2 WR. The fact Manning could do what he did this year with his cast has to be a testament to what kind of QB he is. And yes, his season this year WAS better than Brady's '04.

 

[twitch]

Brady won a Superbowl in 2004. I dont care what kindof #s the man put up. He led his team to a title. You either get that or you dont. If you dont, then you dont understand what sports is really all about.

 

[bostonfred]

As for Wayne/Brown. They are totally different types of WRs. Brown is a slot style WR, where Wayne is an outside WR. So depending on your team needs, your choice may differ. Brown also could play STs, where Wayne doesn't. Brown has far better hands than Wayne. There are many areas where Brown is a better WR than Wayne. It's a shame you can't appreciate that.Most people would probably argue that Dillon was a better RB than Addai is as well.

You're making irrelevant arguments again.

How so? The argument is that Brady didn't have talent on his offenses, yet when you look historically and compare who he had then with who Manning had this year, that argument fails.

Special teams numbers don't count towards the QB's passing numbers. A slot receiver's numbers will not contribute as much towards the QB's yards or TDs as an outside WR. Wayne this year is simply a better option than Brown ever was when it comes to the numbers that they will help their QB put up.

Really? Tell that to Wes Welker.

How many of Wes Welker's return yards are part of Tom Brady's passing yards this year? Is it:A) 0B) You don't understand what return yards are?

 

[bostonfred]

Still, Manning threw 49 TDs in 13.5 games with his cast, and Brady threw 48 in 16 with arguable the best WR to play the game ever. And Manning by attempt was on pace for 57, compared to Brady's 50. I guess one would never know, since Manning wasn't chasing the record, he was just playing.

I'm looking forward to the explanation for this one.

 

[switz]

As for Wayne/Brown. They are totally different types of WRs. Brown is a slot style WR, where Wayne is an outside WR. So depending on your team needs, your choice may differ. Brown also could play STs, where Wayne doesn't. Brown has far better hands than Wayne. There are many areas where Brown is a better WR than Wayne. It's a shame you can't appreciate that.

Most people would probably argue that Dillon was a better RB than Addai is as well.

You're making irrelevant arguments again.

How so? The argument is that Brady didn't have talent on his offenses, yet when you look historically and compare who he had then with who Manning had this year, that argument fails.

Special teams numbers don't count towards the QB's passing numbers. A slot receiver's numbers will not contribute as much towards the QB's yards or TDs as an outside WR. Wayne this year is simply a better option than Brown ever was when it comes to the numbers that they will help their QB put up.

Really? Tell that to Wes Welker.

How many of Wes Welker's return yards are part of Tom Brady's passing yards this year? Is it:A) 0

B) You don't understand what return yards are?

Still refusing to see the point. I would think 1,175 receiving yards had something to do with Tom's passing yards. But wait, slot WRs don't help out a QB...

 

[switz]

Still, Manning threw 49 TDs in 13.5 games with his cast, and Brady threw 48 in 16 with arguable the best WR to play the game ever. And Manning by attempt was on pace for 57, compared to Brady's 50. I guess one would never know, since Manning wasn't chasing the record, he was just playing.

I'm looking forward to the explanation for this one.

Typo - 16 was supposed to be 15.

 

[bostonfred]

As for Wayne/Brown. They are totally different types of WRs. Brown is a slot style WR, where Wayne is an outside WR. So depending on your team needs, your choice may differ. Brown also could play STs, where Wayne doesn't. Brown has far better hands than Wayne. There are many areas where Brown is a better WR than Wayne. It's a shame you can't appreciate that.

Most people would probably argue that Dillon was a better RB than Addai is as well.

You're making irrelevant arguments again.

How so? The argument is that Brady didn't have talent on his offenses, yet when you look historically and compare who he had then with who Manning had this year, that argument fails.

Special teams numbers don't count towards the QB's passing numbers. A slot receiver's numbers will not contribute as much towards the QB's yards or TDs as an outside WR. Wayne this year is simply a better option than Brown ever was when it comes to the numbers that they will help their QB put up.

Really? Tell that to Wes Welker.

How many of Wes Welker's return yards are part of Tom Brady's passing yards this year? Is it:A) 0

B) You don't understand what return yards are?

Still refusing to see the point. I would think 1,175 receiving yards had something to do with Tom's passing yards. But wait, slot WRs don't help out a QB...

I made two points, and you refuted neither. 1) Return yards don't count towards passing statistics. This is the part of your argument I said was irrelevant. When you made the argument that Troy Brown was as valuable to the Pats as Wayne was to the Colts because he was also a returner, you are making a comment that is irrelevant to the conversation about how Brown and Wayne impacted their respective QBs' numbers.

2) Wayne put up better numbers than Welker. Moss put up better numbers than Welker. Outside receivers, in general, will put up better numbers than their slot receiver counterparts. Slot receivers may help their QBs' completion percentage more, but they generally won't put up big numbers.

Also, Welker did not play exclusively from the slot. The Pats moved him around a lot.

 

[bostonfred]

Still, Manning threw 49 TDs in 13.5 games with his cast, and Brady threw 48 in 16 with arguable the best WR to play the game ever. And Manning by attempt was on pace for 57, compared to Brady's 50. I guess one would never know, since Manning wasn't chasing the record, he was just playing.

I'm looking forward to the explanation for this one.

Typo - 16 was supposed to be 15.

And 13.5 isn't a typo? It says 16 GS for 2004 on every site I've seen. You and pizzatyme have argued for 15 in the past. But now you've manufactured a new number that's even lower. And that's before we delve into the claim that Manning wasn't trying for the record.

 

[David Yudkin]

As for Wayne/Brown. They are totally different types of WRs. Brown is a slot style WR, where Wayne is an outside WR. So depending on your team needs, your choice may differ. Brown also could play STs, where Wayne doesn't. Brown has far better hands than Wayne. There are many areas where Brown is a better WR than Wayne. It's a shame you can't appreciate that.

Most people would probably argue that Dillon was a better RB than Addai is as well.

You're making irrelevant arguments again.

How so? The argument is that Brady didn't have talent on his offenses, yet when you look historically and compare who he had then with who Manning had this year, that argument fails.

Special teams numbers don't count towards the QB's passing numbers. A slot receiver's numbers will not contribute as much towards the QB's yards or TDs as an outside WR. Wayne this year is simply a better option than Brown ever was when it comes to the numbers that they will help their QB put up.

Really? Tell that to Wes Welker.

How many of Wes Welker's return yards are part of Tom Brady's passing yards this year? Is it:A) 0

B) You don't understand what return yards are?

Still refusing to see the point. I would think 1,175 receiving yards had something to do with Tom's passing yards. But wait, slot WRs don't help out a QB...

Did Stokley's 68-1077-10 help out Manning that season?

 

[Road Warriors]

This idea that you can compare the talent of this years Colts with Brady's early years is absurd. I dont care who you are- Wayne/Addai doesnt compare with David Patton/Antowain Smith. Anybody who can throw 28 touchdowns to Troy Brown, Deon Branch, and David Patton is pretty damned amazing. Those guys are underrated, yes, but in the sense that they arent respected for what they did with a moderate level of talent. But there isnt a GM in the league that would think twice about choosing between Reggie Wayne over any WR Brady ever completed a pass to before this season. Thats not even worth arguing over. Manning loses ONE of his pro-bowl WRs and his defenders are acting like he's QBing the Dolphins all the sudden. Please.

Manning still outperformed Brady's "early years" this year.BTW, Troy Brown made the Pro Bowl, right? Corey Dillon did too, right? Woody?

So Brady's best season prior to now came with a Pro Bowl WR, RB, and C.

Funny, Manning this year had a Pro Bowl WR, RB, and C, and outperformed Brady's previously best season.

I honestly hate this talent argument. The difference in talent between NFL players is miniscule. We are talking about the best of the best football players in the world, no matter what team (except maybe the Raiders )

To say one player was on a team with less talent is really ridiculous.

You seem to hate the talent argument because it doesn't work for your position. You state that Mannings receivers are great because of Manning.

You then state Bradys record year is only because of having great receivers.

So, Manning makes the receivers and the receivers make Brady. Got it.

Here's the thing... Colts WR are complete WR, running all the routes effectively, and they have a tremendouse vertical passing game.

The Patriots WR prior to this year ( I'd also like to exclude last year, where they were truly sub-par ) have been good, solid NFL WR, but in nearly all cases they were role type receivers.

Branch, Givens, Brown are all small, quick, mostly possession receivers. They handle short to intermediate routes well, but are not explosive playmakers.

Patten and Bethel Johnson were vertical threats, but that was nearly all of their game. And Bethel Johnson can't catch.

For the first time, this year the Patriots passing attack added in playmakers in the passing attack, which allowed Brady's ability to find open guys and get them the ball to end up being big plays down the field, rather than move the chains. If you can't see that the QBs #s are impacted by the types of playmakers around him, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Road Warriors]

This idea that you can compare the talent of this years Colts with Brady's early years is absurd. I dont care who you are- Wayne/Addai doesnt compare with David Patton/Antowain Smith. Anybody who can throw 28 touchdowns to Troy Brown, Deon Branch, and David Patton is pretty damned amazing. Those guys are underrated, yes, but in the sense that they arent respected for what they did with a moderate level of talent. But there isnt a GM in the league that would think twice about choosing between Reggie Wayne over any WR Brady ever completed a pass to before this season. Thats not even worth arguing over. Manning loses ONE of his pro-bowl WRs and his defenders are acting like he's QBing the Dolphins all the sudden. Please.

Manning still outperformed Brady's "early years" this year.BTW, Troy Brown made the Pro Bowl, right? Corey Dillon did too, right? Woody?

So Brady's best season prior to now came with a Pro Bowl WR, RB, and C.

Funny, Manning this year had a Pro Bowl WR, RB, and C, and outperformed Brady's previously best season.

I honestly hate this talent argument. The difference in talent between NFL players is miniscule. We are talking about the best of the best football players in the world, no matter what team (except maybe the Raiders )

To say one player was on a team with less talent is really ridiculous.

Interesting to note that you also neglect to mention the fact that these were not Pro Bowl performances during the same season. Brown in 2001, Woody in 2002, Dillon in 2004. The 2003 SB champs had 0 probowl offensive players.In the year he had a Pro Bowl WR, his only one, BTW, Brady was a 1st year starter primarily given the responsibility to protect the football, as his 2800/18/12 season would indicate. This year, that you want to say is "comparable" skillwise, Manning is a 10 year vet playing with the leading receiver ( yardage ) in the game and a Pro Bowl running back, playing in a pass heavy offense. I'd expect his numbers to be good.

So, prior to 2007, when has Brady had multiple Pro Bowl caliber skill players to make plays for him?

How many years has Manning had multiple Pro Bowl skill players ( including 2007 ) available to make plays for him?

 

[twitch]

I just cant for the life of me understand how anyone in their right mind wants to compare Tom Brady to Peyton Manning at this very moment in any reasonable conversation as greatest ever. It completely defies logic. There are a few others that come to mind. Manning just isnt one of them. Ive been watching football far too long to think otherwise.

 

[Darth Cheney]

Not yet...

Do he deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as your contemporary "Elway-Montana-Favre-Marino" greats? Absolutely...

 

[Modog814]

Are we really using the popularity contest known as the Pro-Bowl as a judge for the talent on a team?

 

[sn0mm1s]

Troy Brown did not make the pro bowl as a WR. He made it as the alternate Kick Returner. Hardly what I would call receiving support. Dillon was the first offensive Probowler that Brady played with and he had already won 2 Super bowls prior to this.

There are really only 2 QBs in the GOAT discussion: Brady and Montana.

They played in the modern era of football and won Superbowls with little surrounding talent. Brady and Montana are also the only QBs with multiple rings that have a better than 2:1 TD to int ratio in the playoffs.

QB is the only position where rings should be taken into account and if Brady gets his 4th he is the GOAT.

 

[Modog814]

I just cant for the life of me understand how anyone in their right mind wants to compare Tom Brady to Peyton Manning at this very moment in any reasonable conversation as greatest ever. It completely defies logic. There are a few others that come to mind. Manning just isnt one of them. Ive been watching football far too long to think otherwise.

Not comparing them defies logic. Yes Tom Brady has the superbowl rings, but for many years Indy's defense was definitely not the caliber of NE's defense during this dynasty.

 

[mbuehner]

Again, your reading comprehension is down. The talent difference in the NFL really is miniscule. When averaged out, most teams have about equal talent

That is patently ridiculous.

 

[Darth Cheney]

Troy Brown did not make the pro bowl as a WR. He made it as the alternate Kick Returner. Hardly what I would call receiving support. Dillon was the first offensive Probowler that Brady played with and he had already won 2 Super bowls prior to this.There are really only 2 QBs in the GOAT discussion: Brady and Montana.They played in the modern era of football and won Superbowls with little surrounding talent. Brady and Montana are also the only QBs with multiple rings that have a better than 2:1 TD to int ratio in the playoffs. QB is the only position where rings should be taken into account and if Brady gets his 4th he is the GOAT.

I wouldn't say that Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino...

 

[Darth Cheney]

Troy Brown did not make the pro bowl as a WR. He made it as the alternate Kick Returner. Hardly what I would call receiving support. Dillon was the first offensive Probowler that Brady played with and he had already won 2 Super bowls prior to this.There are really only 2 QBs in the GOAT discussion: Brady and Montana.They played in the modern era of football and won Superbowls with little surrounding talent. Brady and Montana are also the only QBs with multiple rings that have a better than 2:1 TD to int ratio in the playoffs. QB is the only position where rings should be taken into account and if Brady gets his 4th he is the GOAT.

I wouldn't say that Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino...

 

[discofan]

Not yet...Do he deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as your contemporary "Elway-Montana-Favre-Marino" greats? Absolutely...

I don't think you will ever get a single all-time best out of this group. There are too many influences within generations, much less between. Marino's numbers were absolutely amazing considering he didn't have a lot of the new rule benefits giving passing games such a boost, Favre has incredible longevity, and Montana was an amazing clutch player. Both Peyton and Brady are going to be in this category when they are done.

 

[Tough As Nails]

If the Pats win this year...the argument is over. OVER. Every single argument for somebody other than Brady will have to start with some sort of hypothetical. "Well...IF QB X had this..." or "IF Brady didn't..." or something like that. Brady has 1 thing left to do to put himself on the top. That's it.

why would a win this year put him so clearly ahead of Montana?

He hasn't won yet...so you can't say these things. But IF he wins...he'll have accomplished everything in his career that Montana did. PLUS...he'll have the greatest single season ever. And he'll be the leader of the greatest team ever. Unless you are going to pull the Otto Graham's and other pre-Super Bowl guys out...nobody will have the accomplishments of Brady.The stat that nobody is going to touch? His +42 TD to turnover margin from this past year (or whatever it is). It doesn't matter who your surrounding cast is or how many Pro Bowlers you have...that is completely off the charts.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Troy Brown did not make the pro bowl as a WR. He made it as the alternate Kick Returner. Hardly what I would call receiving support. Dillon was the first offensive Probowler that Brady played with and he had already won 2 Super bowls prior to this.There are really only 2 QBs in the GOAT discussion: Brady and Montana.They played in the modern era of football and won Superbowls with little surrounding talent. Brady and Montana are also the only QBs with multiple rings that have a better than 2:1 TD to int ratio in the playoffs. QB is the only position where rings should be taken into account and if Brady gets his 4th he is the GOAT.

I wouldn't say that Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino...

I agree, I didn't say that rings should be the only measuring stick only that rings should be taken into account when discussing QBs. If it was just rings the conversation would be pretty quick Bradshaw & Montana > Brady & Aikman > Elway & Starr etc. etc.

 

[LHUCKS]

Vote should be interesting...in my lifetime I would say Steve Young was the best, but Brady's unbelievably cotinuing to get better.

In terms of of comparing other positions to QB, yes, I agree that it's unfair but that's just how it is.

 

[mbuehner]

This argument is insanely circular- you can't judge who the better QB is because of the talent surrounding them but you cant judge the talent because of the QB throwing to them. The idea that you can't judge WRs, but hey they are hardly any different from each other in the NFL anyway is absurd, and doubly so on a FANTASY FOOTBALL board. Of course there are tangible, measureable differences in talent between players regardless of the team or system (although obviously some systems play more to their strengths). There is a reason some guys make millions (Reggie Wayne), and some guys are perinnially cut and then resigned (Troy Brown).

Wayne is a better WR than anyone Brady threw to before this year. His combination of speed, burst, hands, and route running- as well as plain physicality are head and shoulder about Branch, Patton, Brown and anybody else you want to throw in there. Most of Bradys X-WRs have gone on to other teams to continue their average careers. Reggie Wayne got 6 years and 40 million reasons to stay in Indy. The market speaks.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

John Madden pretty much said the same thing as he always said Montanta was the best but he now thinks Tom Brady is outplaying him.

I tend to disagree.......I think he has the chance to be the best but if for whatever reason he never played another game after this year, he wouldn't go down as THE best. He'd be mentioned with the greats but if he's going to somehow be in a category all by himself, then he'll still have to do more.

BTW Hucks, I thought you were old enough to have seen Montana. There was a reason Young was benched for so long in S.F., it's called being 2nd best.

 

[Sabertooth]

How many all time records does Brady have? How many league MVPs? How many wins? How many winning seasons?

 

[LHUCKS]

BTW Hucks, I thought you were old enough to have seen Montana. There was a reason Young was benched for so long in S.F., it's called being 2nd best.

I think defenses were so confused that Montana's greatness was helped quite a bit by Walsh's innovative offense...Steve Young had everything Montana had but more mobility. I was very young when Montana was in his prime though, so I have a bias viewpoint.

 

[LHUCKS]

Bill Parcells has said that he's the best player he has seen at any position, not just QB.

That's saying something considering it was Parcells who said it.

 

[Darth Cheney]

Does Brady do everything that his team, HC and system ask of him to be done? Included in this, does he lose games for his team...does he take the team on his shoulders and win games for them?

Is Brady a great big game, playoff QB?

Are his season stat lines good?

Up to this point, are his career stats good?

 

[Sabertooth]

Do people realize that Brady has gone over 30 TD passes exactly once (this year) in his career?

 

[Sabertooth]

Bill Parcells has said that he's the best player he has seen at any position, not just QB.That's saying something considering it was Parcells who said it.

Parcell's is a blowhard. He also called Terry Glenn "she." Does that make Glenn a girl?

 

[Darth Cheney]

Do people realize that Brady has gone over 30 TD passes exactly once (this year) in his career?

Montana has only done it once also.....

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

If the Pats win this year...the argument is over. OVER. Every single argument for somebody other than Brady will have to start with some sort of hypothetical. "Well...IF QB X had this..." or "IF Brady didn't..." or something like that. Brady has 1 thing left to do to put himself on the top. That's it.

why would a win this year put him so clearly ahead of Montana?

He hasn't won yet...so you can't say these things. But IF he wins...he'll have accomplished everything in his career that Montana did. PLUS...he'll have the greatest single season ever. And he'll be the leader of the greatest team ever. Unless you are going to pull the Otto Graham's and other pre-Super Bowl guys out...nobody will have the accomplishments of Brady.The stat that nobody is going to touch? His +42 TD to turnover margin from this past year (or whatever it is). It doesn't matter who your surrounding cast is or how many Pro Bowlers you have...that is completely off the charts.

Montana probably could have won 5 or 6 if injuries and Steve Young didn't derail his career.Ignoring stats, if I had to pick one QB to win one game, I'd take Montana over everyone else. I would definitely take Brady over Peyton though. Elway is probably in the conversation as well.

 

[Sabertooth]

Do people realize that Brady has gone over 30 TD passes exactly once (this year) in his career?

Montana has only done it once also.....

So what does that tell you?

 

[Darth Cheney]

Do people realize that Brady has gone over 30 TD passes exactly once (this year) in his career?

Montana has only done it once also.....

So what does that tell you?

It tells me that the number of 30 TD seasons isn't a good measuring stick of a QB's "greatness".

 

[sn0mm1s]

Do people realize that Brady has gone over 30 TD passes exactly once (this year) in his career?

Montana has only done it once also.....

So what does that tell you?

That when judging QBs playoff performance >>> regular season.

 

[Tough As Nails]

If the Pats win this year...the argument is over. OVER. Every single argument for somebody other than Brady will have to start with some sort of hypothetical. "Well...IF QB X had this..." or "IF Brady didn't..." or something like that. Brady has 1 thing left to do to put himself on the top. That's it.

why would a win this year put him so clearly ahead of Montana?

He hasn't won yet...so you can't say these things. But IF he wins...he'll have accomplished everything in his career that Montana did. PLUS...he'll have the greatest single season ever. And he'll be the leader of the greatest team ever. Unless you are going to pull the Otto Graham's and other pre-Super Bowl guys out...nobody will have the accomplishments of Brady.The stat that nobody is going to touch? His +42 TD to turnover margin from this past year (or whatever it is). It doesn't matter who your surrounding cast is or how many Pro Bowlers you have...that is completely off the charts.

Montana probably could have won 5 or 6 if injuries and Steve Young didn't derail his career.Ignoring stats, if I had to pick one QB to win one game, I'd take Montana over everyone else. I would definitely take Brady over Peyton though. Elway is probably in the conversation as well.

Like I said...you'd have to start an argument with "If" statements. If Montana didn't have injuries or Young. Tough to convince anybody with hypotheticals.

 

[Tough As Nails]

Do people realize that Brady has gone over 30 TD passes exactly once (this year) in his career?

Montana has only done it once also.....

So what does that tell you?

That the Super Bowl means much, much more than the regular season.