Is Washington really going to the 3-4? (1 Viewer)

[bucsbaby]

Washington only added one defensive player in the draft. Haynesworth doesn't want to play NT and is apparently on the market (though they haven't moved him yet). Carter doesn't want to play in a 3-4 and is apparently on the market (though they haven't moved him yet). Orakpo is said to be able to play the 3-4, but is anyone else on their roster suited to a 3-4???

 

[Jene Bramel]

We're just starting to get a little more information out of the brass in Washington. Initially, the rumors were that 2010 would be a transitional year with multiple fronts, implying that the split might be 50-50. That argument was relatively easy to make since Haslett ran 4-3 in STL recently. Haslett is a 3-4 guy, though, and comments from LaRon Landry last week, the addition of Adam Carriker and the ongoing Haynesworth saga strongly suggest that the base defense will lean heavily 3-4 this year.

It's not yet ideal, but there are a handful of 3-4 end prospects -- Carriker, Golston, Daniels could handle it, Montgomery, Jarmon is projectable as a slanting weak side 5-technique. Haynesworth, should he stay, could play either end or nose. Kemoeatu was signed to play nose. Golston might flex inside, too. The linebackers, despite Andre Carter's prior struggles and discomfort in a two point stance, are all reasonably well suited for this type of 3-4. Fletcher and Riley could play either ILB position. McIntosh isn't a terribly poor fit in a 1-gap RILB role. HB Blades could probably do okay at either spot, too.

It's a shame the Skins hamstrung themselves a bit with a lack of draft picks (though they did get some interesting value). This draft was deep in nose tackle prospects, projectable OLB types and even big defensive end potentials.

 

[bucsbaby]

Thanks Jene,

Sounds like a bit of a trainwreck next year. If Carter gets listed as a LB, I think that is going to kill his value.

 

[sgtrobo]

so how far does London Fletcher's value fall?

 

[sgtrobo]

so how far does London Fletcher's value fall?

 

[mlball77]

so how far does London Fletcher's value fall?

Good question... and one I am pondering. It has to hurt it a bit, but doesn't he have 3-4 ILB experience (where he produced solidly)?

 

[Jene Bramel]

Fletcher's value may take a hit -- if the Redskins' line is really weak and he's forced to shed blocks all day long. However, that's not a deal breaker. The Cardinals haven't had a stud nose tackle and Karlos Dansby averaged 92 solos over the past two seasons. D'Qwell Jackson (and the rotating mess at the other ILB position) had no trouble racking up tackles in Cleveland. DJ Williams didn't struggle behind a horrible line in Denver last year. Demorrio Williams had 95 solos last year.

That's not to say that the defensive line talent isn't critical. It's important. It's just as important in the 4-3. And like the 4-3, I'd argue that what more important is how each player fits his role and how competitive his surrounding cast is to make tackles. A small guy like Demorrio Williams can succeed in a 3-4 with a crappy NT if he gets loads of opportunity and has a surrounding cast that allows him to make tackles well downfield. A talented player like Karlos Dansby or DJ Williams is probably going to do well regardless of situation. A small guy with a poor nose tackle and a poor attitude for a scheme he doesn't like with a knee injury -- Jonathan Vilma -- is going to struggle.

What happens with Fletcher? He has no 3-4 experience, but I think he compares favorably to the Dansby/Williams size-talent range. He's the Cris Carter of the IDP landscape. All he does is make tackles. It would be better if he had a stud NT and was likely to play WILB, but I think there's every reason to expect another 90 solo tackle season.

Don't fear the 3-4. There's more to consider than defaulting to worrying over the scheme.

 

[Sidewinder16]

What happens with Fletcher? He has no 3-4 experience, but I think he compares favorably to the Dansby/Williams size-talent range. He's the Cris Carter of the IDP landscape. All he does is make tackles. It would be better if he had a stud NT and was likely to play WILB, but I think there's every reason to expect another 90 solo tackle season.

Did St. Louis not run a 3-4 when Fletcher was there? I thought I remembered hearing that Fletcher had a little bit of 3-4 experience from his Rams days, but I could be wrong.

 

[Jene Bramel]

What happens with Fletcher? He has no 3-4 experience, but I think he compares favorably to the Dansby/Williams size-talent range. He's the Cris Carter of the IDP landscape. All he does is make tackles. It would be better if he had a stud NT and was likely to play WILB, but I think there's every reason to expect another 90 solo tackle season.

Did St. Louis not run a 3-4 when Fletcher was there? I thought I remembered hearing that Fletcher had a little bit of 3-4 experience from his Rams days, but I could be wrong.

I don't think the Rams have run any 3-4 since the days of Kevin Greene, but I may be wrong. It's possible that there's some confusion from blurbs a couple of years ago that Jim Haslett (while in STL) was considering some 3-4 looks.

 

[JOBOOZOSO]

LFB is recession-proof

Look at his career stats. A gazillion tackles and a Super Bowl Champ. He's a Hall of Famer.

Buy him with confidence.

 

[Sidewinder16]

The linebackers, despite Andre Carter's prior struggles and discomfort in a two point stance, are all reasonably well suited for this type of 3-4. Fletcher and Riley could play either ILB position. McIntosh isn't a terribly poor fit in a 1-gap RILB role. HB Blades could probably do okay at either spot, too.

Jene, there is discussion in the Redskins team thread regarding the LBs, but 'Skins fans are generally unfamiliar with all that's involved in a 3-4 defense (myself included). With the talk of all the struggles Carter had in SF, presumably with the coverage aspects of playing LB, there is a lot of concern that OLB is still an area of need. Are you saying you think Carter and Orakpo could adequately handle both OLB spots? How important are the coverage responsibilities of a 3-4 OLB? Both Carter and Orakpo seem like their skills mirror the Demarcus Ware OLB position (i.e. speed rushers). Is it normal for both the OLBs on other 3-4 teams to have such similar skill sets?I could probably list a dozen more questions, but I'll hang up and listen now.

 

[mlball77]

This article is referenced by Rotoworld in a blurb saying Fletcher played some 3-4 in Buf.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsi...redskinsinsider

Maybe this is incorrect... but Haslett does mention that Fletcher has some level of experience in a 3-4 scheme.

 

[Jene Bramel]

The linebackers, despite Andre Carter's prior struggles and discomfort in a two point stance, are all reasonably well suited for this type of 3-4. Fletcher and Riley could play either ILB position. McIntosh isn't a terribly poor fit in a 1-gap RILB role. HB Blades could probably do okay at either spot, too.

Jene, there is discussion in the Redskins team thread regarding the LBs, but 'Skins fans are generally unfamiliar with all that's involved in a 3-4 defense (myself included). With the talk of all the struggles Carter had in SF, presumably with the coverage aspects of playing LB, there is a lot of concern that OLB is still an area of need. Are you saying you think Carter and Orakpo could adequately handle both OLB spots? How important are the coverage responsibilities of a 3-4 OLB? Both Carter and Orakpo seem like their skills mirror the Demarcus Ware OLB position (i.e. speed rushers). Is it normal for both the OLBs on other 3-4 teams to have such similar skill sets?I could probably list a dozen more questions, but I'll hang up and listen now.

Ideally, most 3-4 fronts would probably like to have a pure edge rushing type at ROLB that was athletic enough to fluidly drop into zone coverage as a changeup now and then. For the most part, though, that player functions as a pass rusher in almost all of today's 3-4 fronts. In the 1980s, that OLB was tasked with plenty of coverage duties. Those 3-4 schemes rushed three much more often than today's 3-4 fronts. People think of LT as a stud pass rusher, but he was amazing in coverage as well. On the other side, you'd ideally have a stronger all-around linebacker. Someone who could set the edge against the run and maybe run with a TE in man coverage reasonably well -- all while still very capable in pass rush. The coverage deal is again secondary, though, as most teams will run some form of zone on that side anyway.I think you're probably correct that both Carter and Orakpo are probably better suited to the ROLB than LOLB. I do think, though, that both would do fine supporting the run on the left side and both should be athletic enough to drop into a shallow zone and close on an underneath route now and then -- Orakpo probably better than Carter at this stage in their careers. I don't specifically recall, but I think Carter's issue in San Francisco was that his pass rush suffered because he wasn't getting the same burst at the snap from a two point stance. He may also have struggled with run-pass reads and the resulting hesitation hurt him.Essentially, you work with what you have. Ware is better than most think in coverage and can be moved around formations. James Harrison and Lamarr Woodley are a lot alike -- neither are pure edge rushers, both are decent dropping into zones. It'd be nice to have a pair Terrell Suggs and Adalius Thomas in their primes or two all-around interchangeable types like Willie McGinest/Mike Vrabel, but I think Carter and Orakpo would be at least serviceable.

 

[Jene Bramel]

This article is referenced by Rotoworld in a blurb saying Fletcher played some 3-4 in Buf.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsi...redskinsinsider

Maybe this is incorrect... but Haslett does mention that Fletcher has some level of experience in a 3-4 scheme.

Here's the source of confusion I think:London Fletcher on 18 Mar

“I think last year some of our stuff was 3-4 in principle. Just imagine Andre Carter going from his hand down to his hand up, in a sense. There are some differences, but a lot of similarities. I played in this scheme in Buffalo , we did it out of a 4-3, so a lot of the concepts and things like that I’m familiar with.”

We've discussed before that the majority of today's 3-4 fronts function very much like 4-3 fronts. They play one gap concepts across the front seven. The 3-4 fronts of the 70-80-90s rarely did. Haslett's 3-4 is likely to be an attacking 3-4 like he was a part of in Pittsburgh, with lots of 1-gap concepts. Fletcher is saying that he played a 4-3 under in Buffalo that functioned just like this 3-4 front will function. He and Haslett are both saying that he's played in a scheme in which his responsibilities are essentially the same as what he'll be doing in this 3-4. I don't remember there being any base 3-4 in Buffalo in those years. In fact, I suspect that the scheme they may be referring to is either the 4-3 that Gregg Williams ran or the 4-3 underfronts from Perry Fewell's Tampa-2 playbook during Fletcher's last season in Buffalo. Fletcher was playing 4-3 Under with Williams in WAS a couple of seasons ago, too, when Williams went through his own infatuation with the T2.Unless you're a purist, the differences are superficial and semantic in many ways. If you're interested in what these fronts look like and the differences between them, take a look at the 4-3 and 3-4 discussion threads linked in my sig. There's an extended post on the 3-4 Under in the 3-4 thread.

 

[mlball77]

This article is referenced by Rotoworld in a blurb saying Fletcher played some 3-4 in Buf.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsi...redskinsinsider

Maybe this is incorrect... but Haslett does mention that Fletcher has some level of experience in a 3-4 scheme.

Here's the source of confusion I think:London Fletcher on 18 Mar

“I think last year some of our stuff was 3-4 in principle. Just imagine Andre Carter going from his hand down to his hand up, in a sense. There are some differences, but a lot of similarities. I played in this scheme in Buffalo , we did it out of a 4-3, so a lot of the concepts and things like that I’m familiar with.”

We've discussed before that the majority of today's 3-4 fronts function very much like 4-3 fronts. They play one gap concepts across the front seven. The 3-4 fronts of the 70-80-90s rarely did. Haslett's 3-4 is likely to be an attacking 3-4 like he was a part of in Pittsburgh, with lots of 1-gap concepts. Fletcher is saying that he played a 4-3 under in Buffalo that functioned just like this 3-4 front will function. He and Haslett are both saying that he's played in a scheme in which his responsibilities are essentially the same as what he'll be doing in this 3-4. I don't remember there being any base 3-4 in Buffalo in those years. In fact, I suspect that the scheme they may be referring to is either the 4-3 that Gregg Williams ran or the 4-3 underfronts from Perry Fewell's Tampa-2 playbook during Fletcher's last season in Buffalo. Fletcher was playing 4-3 Under with Williams in WAS a couple of seasons ago, too, when Williams went through his own infatuation with the T2.Unless you're a purist, the differences are superficial and semantic in many ways. If you're interested in what these fronts look like and the differences between them, take a look at the 4-3 and 3-4 discussion threads linked in my sig. There's an extended post on the 3-4 Under in the 3-4 thread.

Good stuff here. Thanks!

 

[Sidewinder16]

Thanks Jene. That's great info.

It'd be nice to have a pair Terrell Suggs and Adalius Thomas in their primes or two all-around interchangeable types like Willie McGinest/Mike Vrabel, but I think Carter and Orakpo would be at least serviceable.

Since you brought up Thomas, would he complement Carter/Orakpo if the 'Skins brought him in, or do you think that would be too many guys (and too much money) almost trying to play the same position?

 

[cr8f]

The linebackers, despite Andre Carter's prior struggles and discomfort in a two point stance, are all reasonably well suited for this type of 3-4. Fletcher and Riley could play either ILB position. McIntosh isn't a terribly poor fit in a 1-gap RILB role. HB Blades could probably do okay at either spot, too.

Jene, there is discussion in the Redskins team thread regarding the LBs, but 'Skins fans are generally unfamiliar with all that's involved in a 3-4 defense (myself included). With the talk of all the struggles Carter had in SF, presumably with the coverage aspects of playing LB, there is a lot of concern that OLB is still an area of need. Are you saying you think Carter and Orakpo could adequately handle both OLB spots? How important are the coverage responsibilities of a 3-4 OLB? Both Carter and Orakpo seem like their skills mirror the Demarcus Ware OLB position (i.e. speed rushers). Is it normal for both the OLBs on other 3-4 teams to have such similar skill sets?I could probably list a dozen more questions, but I'll hang up and listen now.

Ideally, most 3-4 fronts would probably like to have a pure edge rushing type at ROLB that was athletic enough to fluidly drop into zone coverage as a changeup now and then. For the most part, though, that player functions as a pass rusher in almost all of today's 3-4 fronts. In the 1980s, that OLB was tasked with plenty of coverage duties. Those 3-4 schemes rushed three much more often than today's 3-4 fronts. People think of LT as a stud pass rusher, but he was amazing in coverage as well. On the other side, you'd ideally have a stronger all-around linebacker. Someone who could set the edge against the run and maybe run with a TE in man coverage reasonably well -- all while still very capable in pass rush. The coverage deal is again secondary, though, as most teams will run some form of zone on that side anyway.I think you're probably correct that both Carter and Orakpo are probably better suited to the ROLB than LOLB. I do think, though, that both would do fine supporting the run on the left side and both should be athletic enough to drop into a shallow zone and close on an underneath route now and then -- Orakpo probably better than Carter at this stage in their careers. I don't specifically recall, but I think Carter's issue in San Francisco was that his pass rush suffered because he wasn't getting the same burst at the snap from a two point stance. He may also have struggled with run-pass reads and the resulting hesitation hurt him.Essentially, you work with what you have. Ware is better than most think in coverage and can be moved around formations. James Harrison and Lamarr Woodley are a lot alike -- neither are pure edge rushers, both are decent dropping into zones. It'd be nice to have a pair Terrell Suggs and Adalius Thomas in their primes or two all-around interchangeable types like Willie McGinest/Mike Vrabel, but I think Carter and Orakpo would be at least serviceable.

Was Adalius Thomas dropped?

 

[Jene Bramel]

Thanks Jene. That's great info.

It'd be nice to have a pair Terrell Suggs and Adalius Thomas in their primes or two all-around interchangeable types like Willie McGinest/Mike Vrabel, but I think Carter and Orakpo would be at least serviceable.

Since you brought up Thomas, would he complement Carter/Orakpo if the 'Skins brought him in, or do you think that would be too many guys (and too much money) almost trying to play the same position?

I don't think Thomas is above replacement level in any of the three skills needed, unless he shows up with some renewed vigor and motivation. I think I'd rather have a disgruntled Carter or a platoon of Carter and Wilson or another player than Thomas.

 

[JaxBill]

This article is referenced by Rotoworld in a blurb saying Fletcher played some 3-4 in Buf.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsi...redskinsinsider

Maybe this is incorrect... but Haslett does mention that Fletcher has some level of experience in a 3-4 scheme.

Here's the source of confusion I think:London Fletcher on 18 Mar

“I think last year some of our stuff was 3-4 in principle. Just imagine Andre Carter going from his hand down to his hand up, in a sense. There are some differences, but a lot of similarities. I played in this scheme in Buffalo , we did it out of a 4-3, so a lot of the concepts and things like that I’m familiar with.”

We've discussed before that the majority of today's 3-4 fronts function very much like 4-3 fronts. They play one gap concepts across the front seven. The 3-4 fronts of the 70-80-90s rarely did. Haslett's 3-4 is likely to be an attacking 3-4 like he was a part of in Pittsburgh, with lots of 1-gap concepts. Fletcher is saying that he played a 4-3 under in Buffalo that functioned just like this 3-4 front will function. He and Haslett are both saying that he's played in a scheme in which his responsibilities are essentially the same as what he'll be doing in this 3-4. I don't remember there being any base 3-4 in Buffalo in those years. In fact, I suspect that the scheme they may be referring to is either the 4-3 that Gregg Williams ran or the 4-3 underfronts from Perry Fewell's Tampa-2 playbook during Fletcher's last season in Buffalo. Fletcher was playing 4-3 Under with Williams in WAS a couple of seasons ago, too, when Williams went through his own infatuation with the T2.Unless you're a purist, the differences are superficial and semantic in many ways. If you're interested in what these fronts look like and the differences between them, take a look at the 4-3 and 3-4 discussion threads linked in my sig. There's an extended post on the 3-4 Under in the 3-4 thread.

Thanks, Jene.I read the link and this might be a hijack, but since that original post was from 2008, can you list the teams with the 1-gap 3-4 defenses currently vs 2-gap 3-4 defenses? Or is that something we really have to wait for preseason to find out?

 

[Jene Bramel]

This article is referenced by Rotoworld in a blurb saying Fletcher played some 3-4 in Buf.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsi...redskinsinsider

Maybe this is incorrect... but Haslett does mention that Fletcher has some level of experience in a 3-4 scheme.

Here's the source of confusion I think:London Fletcher on 18 Mar

“I think last year some of our stuff was 3-4 in principle. Just imagine Andre Carter going from his hand down to his hand up, in a sense. There are some differences, but a lot of similarities. I played in this scheme in Buffalo , we did it out of a 4-3, so a lot of the concepts and things like that I’m familiar with.”

We've discussed before that the majority of today's 3-4 fronts function very much like 4-3 fronts. They play one gap concepts across the front seven. The 3-4 fronts of the 70-80-90s rarely did. Haslett's 3-4 is likely to be an attacking 3-4 like he was a part of in Pittsburgh, with lots of 1-gap concepts. Fletcher is saying that he played a 4-3 under in Buffalo that functioned just like this 3-4 front will function. He and Haslett are both saying that he's played in a scheme in which his responsibilities are essentially the same as what he'll be doing in this 3-4. I don't remember there being any base 3-4 in Buffalo in those years. In fact, I suspect that the scheme they may be referring to is either the 4-3 that Gregg Williams ran or the 4-3 underfronts from Perry Fewell's Tampa-2 playbook during Fletcher's last season in Buffalo. Fletcher was playing 4-3 Under with Williams in WAS a couple of seasons ago, too, when Williams went through his own infatuation with the T2.Unless you're a purist, the differences are superficial and semantic in many ways. If you're interested in what these fronts look like and the differences between them, take a look at the 4-3 and 3-4 discussion threads linked in my sig. There's an extended post on the 3-4 Under in the 3-4 thread.

Thanks, Jene.I read the link and this might be a hijack, but since that original post was from 2008, can you list the teams with the 1-gap 3-4 defenses currently vs 2-gap 3-4 defenses? Or is that something we really have to wait for preseason to find out?

The yearly coaches and schemes thread is pinned in the Warehouse topic above. I've got a number of teams listed as leaning 2-gap, but it's probably worth noting that those teams are also less 2-gap than their 1980s counterparts. Those teams will very often have their linemen shaded to one side of an offensive lineman, sometimes responsible for two gaps, sometimes just one. It's pretty rare to see a team line up in the true double bubble two gap look any more.Always happy to add clarification or speculate in greater depth about anything if interested.

 

[sgtrobo]

so Carter's value is predicated on him staying listed as a DE, and London Fletcher's value should stay similar

has anyone seen ole' man Fletcher much? Is he still maintaining his speed? I noticed that Farrior absolutely lost a few steps and is about the same age as Fletch. Don't want to see my boy disappear.