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It is impossible to be too cynical about the NFL (1 Viewer)

zftcg

Footballguy
Going all the way back to Bountygate, and then through Deflategate and the Ray Rice video, I've learned to assume the worst about the NFL and teams' front offices. Nonetheless, if you had told me a week ago after Washington claimed Reuben Foster off waivers that a) the team did absolutely no due diligence on him, and b) they would blatantly lie about just how little they had done, despite the fact that their lies were easily checkable, I'm still not sure I would have believed you.

Similarly, if you had told me before Friday that the league had learned nothing from Ray Rice, and would in fact make all of the exact same mistakes just four years after it happened, I once again would have concluded it couldn't possibly be that bad.

But it is that bad.  So going forward, I'm just going to operate under the assumption that there is no bottom. The NFL never does the right thing. If they say that they did, they are lying. I will suspend all disbelief that anyone could simultaneously be both that incompetent and that evil. Goodell will find a way.

 

rockaction

Footballguy
Going all the way back to Bountygate, and then through Deflategate and the Ray Rice video, I've learned to assume the worst about the NFL and teams' front offices. Nonetheless, if you had told me a week ago after Washington claimed Reuben Foster off waivers that a) the team did absolutely no due diligence on him, and b) they would blatantly lie about just how little they had done, despite the fact that their lies were easily checkable, I'm still not sure I would have believed you.

Similarly, if you had told me before Friday that the league had learned nothing from Ray Rice, and would in fact make all of the exact same mistakes just four years after it happened, I once again would have concluded it couldn't possibly be that bad.

But it is that bad.  So going forward, I'm just going to operate under the assumption that there is no bottom. The NFL never does the right thing. If they say that they did, they are lying. I will suspend all disbelief that anyone could simultaneously be both that incompetent and that evil. Goodell will find a way.
Don't forget destroying all the evidence when the Pats were videotaping.

They're all billionaire owners. You don't to be that way without stepping on a few toes (and maybe cracking a few skulls).

I'm surprised you're surprised they botched it again. 

Me, I don't care. They've been corrupt since they tried to keep Davis from moving to LA under eminent domain law, done in cahoots with Oakland.  

 

Chaka

Footballguy
Don't forget destroying all the evidence when the Pats were videotaping.

They're all billionaire owners. You don't to be that way without stepping on a few toes (and maybe cracking a few skulls).

I'm surprised you're surprised they botched it again. 

Me, I don't care. They've been corrupt since they tried to keep Davis from moving to LA under eminent domain law, done in cahoots with Oakland.  
And apparently they didn't ask for police reports about Hunt's Cleveland issue until after TMZ released the video.

But Zeke got a six game suspension.

 

Stealthycat

Footballguy
they make money

when that money is impacted THEN they respond - like the kneeling at the anthem, that cost them money, and so they passed new rules and pump up the military etc

if fans would boycott and show outrage over the way the NFL hides players bigtime mistakes (and that can be alcohol abuse, drugs, violence etc) then the NFL would be forced to make changes to keep the money rolling in

 

doeseatplace

Footballguy

FreeBaGeL

Footballguy
Meh, I don't really understand this obsession to suddenly make the NFL some bastion of morality compared to other public figures.  It's not like musicians are the most scrupulous group of family men and women.

Heck,  our politicians and priests, the two that should ACTUALLY be trustworthy role models and points of morality, make NFL players look like boring scandeless choir boys.

 
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rockaction

Footballguy
Meh, I don't really understand this obsession to suddenly make the NFL some bastion of morality compared to other public figures.  It's not musicians are the most scrupulous group of family men and women.

Heck,  our politicians and priests, the two that should ACTUALLY be trustworthy role models and points of morality, make NFL players look like boring scandeless choir boys.
Like I said up top, I don't really care, either, and most things that happen in the NFL is a reflection of society, not a normative mover of. 

...politicians and priests. 

oh boy. So true, and so far off. It's so sad that you gotta...

:lmao:

 

TwinTurbo

Footballguy
If it wasn't for fantasy football, I would never watch an NFL game and wouldn't care about the league. I have to think there are a lot of other people in the same boat. 

 
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Dizzy

Footballguy
I'm pretty convinced at this point that fantasy football is the only reason that I watch/follow NFL games... I don't see NFL scores, I see player stats that equate to points... I don't root for NFL teams if they conflict with my fantasy team. Ever since the NFL and ESPN stopped pretending to be too cool to know what fantasy football was, and started embracing it it has gotten worse. That Rams/Chiefs game was interesting for many reasons, but if that becomes the norm, the games will become unwatchable... like an NBA or NHL All-Star game.

As far as the ongoing scandals, moral high ground stuff, etc. I'm pretty numb to it. I don't know these people, nor do I expect too much from them. Any cross section of society or professional organization is going to have a small percentage of really bad people, probably an equal amount of truly outstanding members (you know, the one's you never hear about), and the rest pretty normal.

 

Iceman03

Footballguy
Philosophy of NFL Owners is always that they can survive it going away just by being quiet. I doubt Kareem Hunt has anything even said about him until the middle of next year when he is randomly suspended on a Friday news dump.

 

rockaction

Footballguy
Sure are a lot of salty grandmas in here. Lighten up, Francines...
Uh, somebody repeatedly beat a woman and one kicked a woman while she was on the ground and the NFL lied about its knowledge of events. Again. After promising to do better in the future. Looks like they didn't. At all.  

 

IheartGuinness

Footballguy
The NFL is nearing a tipping point. It's about to descend in popularity and a generation from now, it won't be nearly as celebrated as it is today.

 

Super King

Footballguy
Uh, somebody repeatedly beat a woman and one kicked a woman while she was on the ground and the NFL lied about its knowledge of events. Again. After promising to do better in the future. Looks like they didn't. At all.  
That's not acceptable. At all. I was responding to the few people who were lamenting the state of the actual play in the NFL. Example: someone complaining about Rams-Chiefs game. And how it was an offensive showdown. Almost Arena like. That game was amazing. There was defense in that game. Just in the form of big plays.

I do not condone violence against women.

 

rockaction

Footballguy
That's not acceptable. At all. I was responding to the few people who were lamenting the state of the actual play in the NFL. Example: someone complaining about Rams-Chiefs game. And how it was an offensive showdown. Almost Arena like. That game was amazing. There was defense in that game. Just in the form of big plays.

I do not condone violence against women.
Gotcha, and sorry if I imputed that. I wasn't trying to.The gist I got from this thread was that it was about the Foster signing and the incidents. My bad, and apologies to you.  

 

voiceofunreason

Footballguy
Meh, I don't really understand this obsession to suddenly make the NFL some bastion of morality compared to other public figures.  It's not musicians are the most scrupulous group of family men and women.

Heck,  our politicians and priests, the two that should ACTUALLY be trustworthy role models and points of morality, make NFL players look like boring scandeless choir boys.
I always said Goodell created a huge problem by getting into this in the first place. The police and justice department are their for a reason, shift the blame to them. Goodell wanted the spotlight though, now when stuff like this happens it’s a pr disaster for them.

 

Tool

Footballguy
If it wasn't for fantasy football, I would never watch an NFL game and wouldn't care about the league. I have to think there are a lot of other people in the same boat. 
Pretty true, I'd watch and follow my favorite team a bit but that's about it.

 

Tool

Footballguy
The NFL is nearing a tipping point. It's about to descend in popularity and a generation from now, it won't be nearly as celebrated as it is today.
Except ratings are up this year. Like other posters have said as long as there is fantasy football it will remain popular.  Fantasy football is like a drug. I've thought about quitting my leagues the last couple years but can't do it.  I could be wrong but think i'd miss it too much. It get me through the fall and winter

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
Should we really expect people making millions and billions to play or manage a violent game to be the shining beacon of morality? 

The business will only prioritize what its customers prioritize. That's mostly winning and highlights. 

 

rockaction

Footballguy
Should we really expect people making millions and billions to play or manage a violent game to be the shining beacon of morality? 

The business will only prioritize what its customers prioritize. That's mostly winning and highlights. 
That's the old Plato/warrior argument. That we can't train people for war and other such violent acts and expect them to angels during or when they're done with their training

 

habsfan

Footballguy
they make money

when that money is impacted THEN they respond - like the kneeling at the anthem, that cost them money, and so they passed new rules and pump up the military etc

if fans would boycott and show outrage over the way the NFL hides players bigtime mistakes (and that can be alcohol abuse, drugs, violence etc) then the NFL would be forced to make changes to keep the money rolling in
While connected to money, this is also about keeping "the help" in line. Kaepernicks are threats (real or perceived) to popularity but also their power base. I also feel it's part of the reason the Bell thread is a bazillion pages long because the story taps into two schizophrenic traits of the NFL. On one hand talent trumps all. On the other hand, if you rock the boat you can quickly find yourself inexplicably "unemployable". He'll probably get paid but it's not really that far fetched that he could be black-balled.

 

rockaction

Footballguy
While connected to money, this is also about keeping "the help" in line. Kaepernicks are threats (real or perceived) to popularity but also their power base. I also feel it's part of the reason the Bell thread is a bazillion pages long because the story taps into two schizophrenic traits of the NFL. On one hand talent trumps all. On the other hand, if you rock the boat you can quickly find yourself inexplicably "unemployable". He'll probably get paid but it's not really that far fetched that he could be black-balled.
Yeah, but you can say that of any closed industry where either government or agreements among owners have given them monopsonies over labor. 

This isn't endemic to the NFL is what I'm saying.  

 
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-OZ-

Footballguy
That's the old Plato/warrior argument. That we can't train people for war and other such violent acts and expect them to angels during or when they're done with their training
Partly, although I don't buy it in its entirety.  I do think people who succeed at a high level in a violent game are more prone to violence than the average person.

More of the point is the last comment - The business will only prioritize what its customers prioritize.

The US military has put a greater emphasis lately on ethics, and I'd submit that on the whole we've done a decent job with it. There's still room for improvement.

The NFL has also improved, but likewise, has a ways to go.

 

rockaction

Footballguy
Partly, although I don't buy it in its entirety.  I do think people who succeed at a high level in a violent game are more prone to violence than the average person.

More of the point is the last comment - The business will only prioritize what its customers prioritize.

The US military has put a greater emphasis lately on ethics, and I'd submit that on the whole we've done a decent job with it. There's still room for improvement.

The NFL has also improved, but likewise, has a ways to go.
Yeah, you know, I wasn't disagreeing with the point really, just pointing out that it's been going on for a long time, this debate about how we expect those that participate in violence to adjust once back in the domestic and societal realm. 

It's always been interesting to me.  

eta* Oh, I see -- more inherently prone to violent acts. That their success denotes certain personality traits that allow them to succeed. Interesting.  

 
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Dizzy

Footballguy
I was responding to the few people who were lamenting the state of the actual play in the NFL. Example: someone complaining about Rams-Chiefs game. And how it was an offensive showdown. Almost Arena like. That game was amazing. There was defense in that game. Just in the form of big plays.
Easy to say now, but thankfully for ALL the Rams/Chiefs didn't go to OT where a 99% chance the winner would have been decided by the flip of a coin. Then there would have been some moaning. Great game, but if that becomes a trendy/weekly thing? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

There were individual defensive plays made in that game, but zero team defense on either side. A FF scoring orgy for every skill player on the field.

Note: Calling people granma's, or Francine's? Shirley you can do better than that.

 

Mr. Irrelevant

IBL Representative
Partly, although I don't buy it in its entirety.  I do think people who succeed at a high level in a violent game are more prone to violence than the average person.

More of the point is the last comment - The business will only prioritize what its customers prioritize.
I don't necessarily disagree with the bolded as a premise. However, MLB has, if anything, a bigger domestic violence problem than the NFL, and ("unwritten rules" aside) it isn't 1% as violent a game.

I think it's more appropriate to generalize it to "you can't treat kids like royalty from childhood, coddle them every step of the way, give them millions of dollars and eyeballs before they're old enough to drink, and yet expect them to behave like well-adjusted human beings". This applies to pro athletes of every ilk the same way it does to Hollywood child actors, teen recording artists and, well, actual royalty.

What matters much more is (along the lines of your second point) how the governing organizations handle the inevitable problems. And on a scale of Buckingham Palace to USA Gymnastics, the NFL is far closer to the bottom than the top.

 

KickinT

Footballguy
Football players are generally not nice people.  Many young men with abuse/anger issues gravitate to the sport. You train violently and are taught to intimidate and impose your physicality on your opponent. Are you bothered that these traits spill over into bullying and domestic abuse, or that no one from high school on does much about it. I’m not asking any of them to babysit for me. Some folks are appalled when they see video of a violent act, some just remember their childhood.

 

zftcg

Footballguy
Football players are generally not nice people.  Many young men with abuse/anger issues gravitate to the sport. You train violently and are taught to intimidate and impose your physicality on your opponent. Are you bothered that these traits spill over into bullying and domestic abuse, or that no one from high school on does much about it. I’m not asking any of them to babysit for me. Some folks are appalled when they see video of a violent act, some just remember their childhood.
I seem to recall a study that came out a couple years ago that said football players (or maybe it was professional athletes as a whole) are in fact  less likely to commit crimes than similarly aged young men. I assumed it probably had something to do with economic status. Pro athletes are richer than others in their cohort, which probably eliminates a lot of crime that arises out of poverty (to cite just one example, while domestic violence obviously occurs across all demographic groups, I could easily imagine that being under severe economic stress as you try to support your family might exacerbate the problem).

 

KickinT

Footballguy
I seem to recall a study that came out a couple years ago that said football players (or maybe it was professional athletes as a whole) are in fact  less likely to commit crimes than similarly aged young men. I assumed it probably had something to do with economic status. Pro athletes are richer than others in their cohort, which probably eliminates a lot of crime that arises out of poverty (to cite just one example, while domestic violence obviously occurs across all demographic groups, I could easily imagine that being under severe economic stress as you try to support your family might exacerbate the problem).
I love your choice of the word imagine.  It implies that you never had to experience being truly poor.    The ability to imagine being in someone else’s shoes was the main point of my post.  

 

zftcg

Footballguy
Just to clarify my original post, I always knew the NFL was run by a bunch of greedy, immoral* bastards. I just would have thought their greed and amorality would have made them averse to walking into the exact same PR disaster over and over again. In addition, while I knew they could be really stupid about this stuff, I didn't think they would be so stupid as to, for example, claim that they spoke to the Alabama alums on the team, knowing that reporters could very easily walk down to the locker room, talk to those players, and discover that the team was lying.

But I promise you, I won't make that mistake again.

* About everything other than players kneeling for the National Anthem. Then they get really moral. The same Washington team that has no issue with signing a domestic abuser is apparently willing to flush away its playoff hopes by riding Mark Sanchez and Josh Johnson ROS rather than signing Kaep.

 

mbuehner

Footballguy
Just to clarify my original post, I always knew the NFL was run by a bunch of greedy, immoral* bastards. I just would have thought their greed and amorality would have made them averse to walking into the exact same PR disaster over and over again. In addition, while I knew they could be really stupid about this stuff, I didn't think they would be so stupid as to, for example, claim that they spoke to the Alabama alums on the team, knowing that reporters could very easily walk down to the locker room, talk to those players, and discover that the team was lying.

But I promise you, I won't make that mistake again.

* About everything other than players kneeling for the National Anthem. Then they get really moral. The same Washington team that has no issue with signing a domestic abuser is apparently willing to flush away its playoff hopes by riding Mark Sanchez and Josh Johnson ROS rather than signing Kaep.
Its simple. The cheating and domestic abuse stuff has cost them zero dollars. The kneeling stuff was looking to get expensive.

 
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Stealthycat

Footballguy
While connected to money, this is also about keeping "the help" in line. Kaepernicks are threats (real or perceived) to popularity but also their power base. I also feel it's part of the reason the Bell thread is a bazillion pages long because the story taps into two schizophrenic traits of the NFL. On one hand talent trumps all. On the other hand, if you rock the boat you can quickly find yourself inexplicably "unemployable". He'll probably get paid but it's not really that far fetched that he could be black-balled.
I disagree

Many players kneeled before Kap ..... none set off the boycott's and firestorm that he did which resulted in money lost/sponsors lost

Many NFL players have had violence issues/incidents .... Ray Rice and that video sparked outrage and was the turning point where the NFL had to do something because they were going to lose money/sponsors

Its all about money

 

rockaction

Footballguy
Did people really stop buying tickets and watching because of the kneeling? I find that almost unfathomable. 

 

zftcg

Footballguy
I love your choice of the word imagine.  It implies that you never had to experience being truly poor.    The ability to imagine being in someone else’s shoes was the main point of my post.  
You're right that I've never had to experience being truly poor. But I have seen first-hand how economic stress can escalate conflict with family members. I never have and never would hit my wife or my kids, and I can't relate to anyone who would. I use the word "imagine" precisely because I can't put myself in the head of someone like that. But I can see how it is statistically more likely to happen in certain situations.

Anyway, my point was that your supposition that football attracts young men who are prone to commit violent acts, while it makes sense intuitively, is not borne out by the data. I'll see if I can find the results of the study I was referring to and post it here.

 

KickinT

Footballguy
You're right that I've never had to experience being truly poor. But I have seen first-hand how economic stress can escalate conflict with family members. I never have and never would hit my wife or my kids, and I can't relate to anyone who would. I use the word "imagine" precisely because I can't put myself in the head of someone like that. But I can see how it is statistically more likely to happen in certain situations.

Anyway, my point was that your supposition that football attracts young men who are prone to commit violent acts, while it makes sense intuitively, is not borne out by the data. I'll see if I can find the results of the study I was referring to and post it here.
I would be interested in seeing what you come up with. My opinions come from personal experience.  I would also include boxing, wrestling, martial arts, MMA, and rugby.

 

habsfan

Footballguy
I disagree

Many players kneeled before Kap ..... none set off the boycott's and firestorm that he did which resulted in money lost/sponsors lost

Many NFL players have had violence issues/incidents .... Ray Rice and that video sparked outrage and was the turning point where the NFL had to do something because they were going to lose money/sponsors

Its all about money
You may be right. I guess we'll have to wait and see if the example of Bell giving the Steelers and the CBA the middle finger affirms the theory or not. That didn't cost the league money but it is grist for the mill in terms of the next round of collective bargaining.

 

KickinT

Footballguy
Then if you would please, look into sports that do not require violent training.  Sports that require more money to play like golf, tennis, swimming, and the like for comparison.

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
.

Anyway, my point was that your supposition that football attracts young men who are prone to commit violent acts, while it makes sense intuitively, is not borne out by the data. I'll see if I can find the results of the study I was referring to and post it here.
Most data I've seen assumes the victim being willing to report. It's not hard to imagine victims being less likely to report that the local jock hero did something.

@Mr. Irrelevant is right, many of these athletes are coddled early. Same with actors (generally charismatic) and politicians (often from affluent, connected families and often charismatic). 

 
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Cjw_55106

Footballguy
Then if you would please, look into sports that do not require violent training.  Sports that require more money to play like golf, tennis, swimming, and the like for comparison.
I’d wager everything and I had that those athletes grew up with fathers in their lives on a much greater scale than NFL players. 

 

zftcg

Footballguy
I would be interested in seeing what you come up with. My opinions come from personal experience.  I would also include boxing, wrestling, martial arts, MMA, and rugby.
OK, here's what I found via a quick Google search:

Two researchers writing in the academic journal Chance (published by the American Statistical Association) several years ago went through reams of data about crime and NFL players. Their perhaps startling conclusion: The rate of arrests of pro athletes for assault and domestic violence was less than half that of the general population. In other words, the football players were not more violent and in truth were markedly less so. That finding applies to other crimes as well. NFL players commit property crimes at a far lesser rate than does everyone else (perhaps not unexpectedly, given their relatively high incomes). And despite the image of NFL players as wild and crazy partiers (over 624 have been arrested for drunken driving since 2000), the drunken driving arrest rate for pro footballers is about half of that for all young men ages 20 to 29.
Also, 538 did a similar examination (I hesitate to call it a "study" since it wasn't an academic paper) and found roughly the same thing, although they did say that domestic violence arrests were higher among players than others in the same income bracket. (My quibble with that data point is that it might not be accurate to compare athletes, most of whom had wealth suddenly thrust upon them in their 20s, to other 1%-ers who have been wealthy their whole lives.)

 

zftcg

Footballguy
Most data I've seen assumes the victim being willing to report. It's not hard to imagine victims being less likely to report that the local jock hero did something.

@Mr. Irrelevant is right, many of these athletes are coddled early. Same with actors (generally charismatic) and politicians (often from affluent, connected families and often charismatic). 
Yes, I wondered about that as well. Athletes are also probably more likely to have cops go easy on them (cough, Jameis, cough). Still, I am not aware of any data supporting the contention that athletes are more violent than the general population.

 

Stealthycat

Footballguy
I’d wager everything and I had that those athletes grew up with fathers in their lives on a much greater scale than NFL players. 
many men have grown up without fathers or fathers that suck and not chosen to act violently etc

yes - its harder, but remember single mothers are celebrated by liberals and women's rights groups  :(      regardless, they know its illegal, wrong and they choose anyway and that covers everything from drugs to alcohol about to physical abuse/altercations etc

 

Cjw_55106

Footballguy
many men have grown up without fathers or fathers that suck and not chosen to act violently etc

yes - its harder, but remember single mothers are celebrated by liberals and women's rights groups  :(      regardless, they know its illegal, wrong and they choose anyway and that covers everything from drugs to alcohol about to physical abuse/altercations etc
And most men in the nfl have chosen not to act violently. 

 

KickinT

Footballguy
Funny how an actual academic paper quiets a room so much.  
I had to go to work. 😐  Looking forward to catching up when I get home.  Thanks to zftcg for the articles and thought provoking topic. I’m sorry for going slightly off topic, but there are many interesting moralities and ideals overlapping.

 

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