It is impossible to be too cynical about the NFL (1 Viewer)

[Dizzy]

true

like many things, the very very small % are what we seem to focus on, and not the great majority

I'm sure a lot of this stuff is racially driven. Old white folks can't stand the fact that young, predominantly black athletes are getting paid millions of dollars. So the first chance they get they take them down and lump all others in with them. Look at the fuss that's made over contracts for black athletes (and we all hear/see the comments). No comments when a Rogers, Ryan, or Manning gets paid... or even Sam Bradford getting $15MM for holding a clipboard for half a season.

Even the extreme opposite end of the spectrum... the incredibly gracious, and giving athletes... they don't get any press/headlines. Well except for JJ Watt.

 

[Stealthycat]

I'm sure a lot of this stuff is racially driven.

or

its fair and equal and people dislike the things done regardless of skin color and that its blacks doing it just happens to be what it is ?

racism goes both ways - Kap's comments for example could easily be seen as racist towards white police ..... and in fact, it was exactly that. Funny nobody calls Kap the racist he appears to be with his comments

 

[Stealthycat]

Look at the fuss that's made over contracts for black athletes (and we all hear/see the comments).

what??   where and who ??

I think EVERYONE agree's sports players make way too much money and the NBA is probably THE #1 most overpaid ..... guys get paid tens of millions to average 3 poinds and 1.5 rebounds - its sick

But that's the game - and the NBA/NFL/MLB are predominantly black .... I don't think athletes and millions is a racial thing at all

 

[KickinT]

Whether it’s corporations, churches, educational institutions, law enforcement agencies, government or even the family unit, there is a tendency to cover up abuses.  This is where abuse breeds and abusers lurk.  The NFL looks to be no different.  If it were not for the increase in public awareness on long term health issues, would we have to endure all these rule changes to make the game more safe? Probably not. Can football be less dangerous and more entertaining? Probably not. Can a politically correct nfl hold their audience’s interest?  Hard to say. What’s easy to say is I too dislike the commish and liken him to David Stern.  Stern made money and increased the fan base at the expense of the traditions and history of the NBA. 

 

[Dizzy]

what??   where and who ??

I think EVERYONE agree's sports players make way too much money...

No, not at all. They are the select few doing ALL THE WORK that drives a multi-billion dollar machine.

 

[rockaction]

No, not at all. They are the select few doing ALL THE WORK that drives a multi-billion dollar machine.

They're still underpaid. It's crazy how much money is in sports.  

 

[32 Counter Pass]

Oh you want cynicism? I’ll show you cynism. It was in the league’s best interest to have the Bolts win last week to keep two division races alive. Several extremely questionable calls the league got their wish. Coincidence? Maybe. This week it would be in the league’s best interest for the Eagles to win to keep the divisional race alive. Let’s see how this game unfolds.

 

[Chaka]

I'm sure a lot of this stuff is racially driven. Old white folks can't stand the fact that young, predominantly black athletes are getting paid millions of dollars. So the first chance they get they take them down and lump all others in with them. Look at the fuss that's made over contracts for black athletes (and we all hear/see the comments). No comments when a Rogers, Ryan, or Manning gets paid... or even Sam Bradford getting $15MM for holding a clipboard for half a season.

Even the extreme opposite end of the spectrum... the incredibly gracious, and giving athletes... they don't get any press/headlines. Well except for JJ Watt.

Not seeing it. I think everyone acknowledges Sam Bradford is the most overpaid athlete in history.

Which black athletes contracts are you referring to? You were very specific with the white ones 

 

[Chaka]

or

its fair and equal and people dislike the things done regardless of skin color and that its blacks doing it just happens to be what it is ?

racism goes both ways - Kap's comments for example could easily be seen as racist towards white police ..... and in fact, it was exactly that. Funny nobody calls Kap the racist he appears to be with his comments

Did Kaepernick ever single out police officers by race? Not by my recollection but maybe I missed that.

African American police are often singled out as being tougher in African American civilians.

 

[Chaka]

what??   where and who ??

I think EVERYONE agree's sports players make way too much money and the NBA is probably THE #1 most overpaid ..... guys get paid tens of millions to average 3 poinds and 1.5 rebounds - its sick

But that's the game - and the NBA/NFL/MLB are predominantly black .... I don't think athletes and millions is a racial thing at all

Difficult to argue that any athletes make way too much money when they literally generate billions of dollars in revenue.

That's on us, not them. Fans drive that engine.

 

[Chaka]

Oh you want cynicism? I’ll show you cynism. It was in the league’s best interest to have the Bolts win last week to keep two division races alive. Several extremely questionable calls the league got their wish. Coincidence? Maybe. This week it would be in the league’s best interest for the Eagles to win to keep the divisional race alive. Let’s see how this game unfolds.

My Lord I hate conspiracy theories. It's hard enough for one person to keep a secret.

 

[Chaka]

They're still underpaid. It's crazy how much money is in sports.  

Yup. And the NCAA is the worst of the bunch.

 

[voiceofunreason]

or

its fair and equal and people dislike the things done regardless of skin color and that its blacks doing it just happens to be what it is ?

racism goes both ways - Kap's comments for example could easily be seen as racist towards white police ..... and in fact, it was exactly that. Funny nobody calls Kap the racist he appears to be with his comments

Wow, you need some help.

 

[Dizzy]

Not seeing it. I think everyone acknowledges Sam Bradford is the most overpaid athlete in history.

Which black athletes contracts are you referring to? You were very specific with the white ones 

Good for you. Two most recent in my experience were K. Mack and A. Donald... and I'm not talking about here in the Shark Poo, but work colleagues, general BS conversations at dinners/functions, older family members, etc. the repeating comments are "that's ridiculous" or "he's not worth that" or worse, but (again, in my experience) never the same comments when a Rogers/Ryan/Manning gets paid. Never.

 

[rockaction]

Yup. And the NCAA is the worst of the bunch.

That should be criminal what they do. That's grand theft.  

 

[Da Guru]

I'm sure a lot of this stuff is racially driven. Old white folks can't stand the fact that young, predominantly black athletes are getting paid millions of dollars. So the first chance they get they take them down and lump all others in with them. Look at the fuss that's made over contracts for black athletes (and we all hear/see the comments). No comments when a Rogers, Ryan, or Manning gets paid... or even Sam Bradford getting $15MM for holding a clipboard for half a season.

Even the extreme opposite end of the spectrum... the incredibly gracious, and giving athletes... they don't get any press/headlines. Well except for JJ Watt.

You don`t live in Detroit..people complain everyday what Matt Stafford gets paid. Never heard anyone complain when Calvin Johnson was the highest paid WR because he performed.

 

[zftcg]

I read something interesting about this issue the other day, and the debate in this thread has followed it to a T: Somehow, whenever we start debating the league's response to these types of incidents, the discussion ends up shifting to the players instead. 

Here's the best analogy I can think of: A plane crash is obviously a horrible thing for everyone affected by it. But crashes are relatively rare, and studies consistently show that traveling by air is the safest method of travel. So let's imagine there was a horrific plane crash tomorrow, and the airline and NTSB completely botched the investigation -- didn't look for the black box, didn't analyze the forensics, didn't interview any eyewitnesses, etc. So the whole issue gets dropped (I know that's not how NTSB investigations work, but just go with it). Then nine months later, TMZ somehow gets its hands on the black boxes, and it turns out the crash was caused by something scandalous -- say, the pilot and co-pilot were doing lines of coke off the flight attendant's cleavage. I'm sure that would be a dramatic story that would lead all the newscasts, but in terms of relevance and necessary changes going forward, I would want to focus far more on the botched investigation than the partying going on in the cockpit.

OK, maybe that analogy didn't sustain all the way through, but you get the idea. Domestic violence is a horrible thing and I would love to see it eliminated completely, but I also know that among a population of young males, it is a statistical certainty that there will be a certain number of DV incidents. However, given the studies showing those incidents occur less frequently among NFL players than among the general population, I think it's more important to focus on the league's institutional response to this issue, which I think we all can agree has been absolutely appalling. It displays a level of blindness and institutional rot that, at a macro level, I find far more troubling than the scattered number of DV incidents (and that's even more true when you realize that the incompetent responses frequently have the effect of allowing abusers to skate by with little to no punishment).

 

[Da Guru]

All athletes are worth what any one team is willing to pay them. The onus is on bad management that overpays an employee.

If I am making 150K a year and another company says "Guru we will give you 500K a year to do the same job with our company" and I don`t produce anymore am I to blame or the guy who gave me the raise?  Only difference in real life is mine won`t be guaranteed.

 

[zftcg]

All athletes are worth what any one team is willing to pay them. The onus is on bad management that overpays an employee.

If I am making 150K a year and another company says "Guru we will give you 500K a year to do the same job with our company" and I don`t produce anymore am I to blame or the guy who gave me the raise?  Only difference in real life is mine won`t be guaranteed.

Actually, given the salary cap, rookie wage scale, etc., many pro athletes, particularly those at the top of their game, are worth significantly more than teams are willing to pay them.  If the NFL eliminated the cap tomorrow and declared all players free agents, guys like Wentz and Mahomes (and even vets like Rodgers) would earn many multiples of their current salaries.

 

[Da Guru]

Actually, given the salary cap, rookie wage scale, etc., many pro athletes, particularly those at the top of their game, are worth significantly more than teams are willing to pay them.  If the NFL eliminated the cap tomorrow and declared all players free agents, guys like Wentz and Mahomes (and even vets like Rodgers) would earn many multiples of their current salaries.

The NFL, MLB, NBA set what will be paid because there are no competitor leagues that can steal players for more money. These are the highest paying leagues in the world for their skills.  BB players can go to China or Europe, MLB players can go to Japan, football players can go to Canada but there is nowhere else they can make the kind of money they make here.

When you own the company/league you make the rules.

 

[rockaction]

Actually, given the salary cap, rookie wage scale, etc., many pro athletes, particularly those at the top of their game, are worth significantly more than teams are willing to pay them.  If the NFL eliminated the cap tomorrow and declared all players free agents, guys like Wentz and Mahomes (and even vets like Rodgers) would earn many multiples of their current salaries.

That's why the cap is there. It's a totally artificial wage ceiling.  

 

[rockaction]

Reminds me of Carl Pohlad of the Twins, who should be remembered for being one of the richest owners who pushed for caps, kept payroll abysmally low, and then claimed he couldn't compete with the other teams. 

 

[zftcg]

The NFL, MLB, NBA set what will be paid because there are no competitor leagues that can steal players for more money. These are the highest paying leagues in the world for their skills.  BB players can go to China or Europe, MLB players can go to Japan, football players can go to Canada but there is nowhere else they can make the kind of money they make here.

When you own the company/league you make the rules.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you. I think there are legit reasons for leagues to impose restrictions like salary caps and wage scales (drafts are another example). I was just pointing out that your claim that "All athletes are worth what any one team is willing to pay them" is, technically speaking, not true. Nearly all sports leagues engage in some form of (legal) collusion to avoid paying athletes their true market value.

 

[Da Guru]

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you. I think there are legit reasons for leagues to impose restrictions like salary caps and wage scales (drafts are another example). I was just pointing out that your claim that "All athletes are worth what any one team is willing to pay them" is, technically speaking, not true. Nearly all sports leagues engage in some form of (legal) collusion to avoid paying athletes their true market value.

I agree but that goes back to whoever employs you sets the pay scale. Without the league as a vehicle there would be no market value.

 

[zftcg]

I agree but that goes back to whoever employs you sets the pay scale. Without the league as a vehicle there would be no market value.

Certainly. I'm the furthest thing from a free-market absolutist. Sports leagues need at least some of these restraints on trade in order to function properly. I once heard Bob Costas make this comparison: A cab driver in Milwaukee, no matter how skilled at his job, would never expect to make the same salary as a cab driver in New York. But if we're talking about the 1B for the Brewers, he will absolutely expect to be paid the same as the 1B for the Yankees.

But it is funny how we get so used to these restraints on trade that we barely even think of them that way anymore. The draft is a perfect example. Pretty much every league uses one, and it's obviously a key mechanism for maintaining parity and competitiveness. It's a huge restraint on trade, but because it's so ingrained, we are as likely to question it as we are the rule that a holding penalty is 10 yards. It's just the way things are.

 

[Stealthycat]

Wow, you need some help.

calling things equally and fairly is what we're supposed to do

 

[Stealthycat]

Difficult to argue that any athletes make way too much money when they literally generate billions of dollars in revenue.

That's on us, not them. Fans drive that engine.

can't disagree - the market is what it is

I didn't make the claim that athletes are targeted because of the money they make with the suggestion that skin color and suppression etc that's being hinted at

this is all about money - plain and simple

 

[Chaka]

Good for you. Two most recent in my experience were K. Mack and A. Donald... and I'm not talking about here in the Shark Poo, but work colleagues, general BS conversations at dinners/functions, older family members, etc. the repeating comments are "that's ridiculous" or "he's not worth that" or worse, but (again, in my experience) never the same comments when a Rogers/Ryan/Manning gets paid. Never.

So they said "He's not worth it because he's black"? and you have express memories of those conversations with the same people when Rogers, Ryan and Manning go their contracts?

 

[Arodin]

Good for you. Two most recent in my experience were K. Mack and A. Donald... and I'm not talking about here in the Shark Poo, but work colleagues, general BS conversations at dinners/functions, older family members, etc. the repeating comments are "that's ridiculous" or "he's not worth that" or worse, but (again, in my experience) never the same comments when a Rogers/Ryan/Manning gets paid. Never.

This sounds a lot more like “casual fans don’t appreciate the true value of defensive players” than anything racially motivated.

 

[rockaction]

So they said "He's not worth it because he's black"? and you have express memories of those conversations with the same people when Rogers, Ryan and Manning go their contracts?

Sometimes one might have relatives and co-workers that show a pattern and one might surmise...

 

[Chaka]

I read something interesting about this issue the other day, and the debate in this thread has followed it to a T: Somehow, whenever we start debating the league's response to these types of incidents, the discussion ends up shifting to the players instead. 

Here's the best analogy I can think of: A plane crash is obviously a horrible thing for everyone affected by it. But crashes are relatively rare, and studies consistently show that traveling by air is the safest method of travel. So let's imagine there was a horrific plane crash tomorrow, and the airline and NTSB completely botched the investigation -- didn't look for the black box, didn't analyze the forensics, didn't interview any eyewitnesses, etc. So the whole issue gets dropped (I know that's not how NTSB investigations work, but just go with it). Then nine months later, TMZ somehow gets its hands on the black boxes, and it turns out the crash was caused by something scandalous -- say, the pilot and co-pilot were doing lines of coke off the flight attendant's cleavage. I'm sure that would be a dramatic story that would lead all the newscasts, but in terms of relevance and necessary changes going forward, I would want to focus far more on the botched investigation than the partying going on in the cockpit.

OK, maybe that analogy didn't sustain all the way through, but you get the idea. Domestic violence is a horrible thing and I would love to see it eliminated completely, but I also know that among a population of young males, it is a statistical certainty that there will be a certain number of DV incidents. However, given the studies showing those incidents occur less frequently among NFL players than among the general population, I think it's more important to focus on the league's institutional response to this issue, which I think we all can agree has been absolutely appalling. It displays a level of blindness and institutional rot that, at a macro level, I find far more troubling than the scattered number of DV incidents (and that's even more true when you realize that the incompetent responses frequently have the effect of allowing abusers to skate by with little to no punishment).

No, I want to know how three people doing rails of coke were ever allowed to pilot an  airplane and what was being done to make sure that never happened again.

DV among athletes is lower most likely because the majority of them are smart enough to understand that they are public figures subject to a higher degree of scrutiny and held up to a higher standard. 

The NFL should be held to that higher standard as well but we give them a free pass and help them print money so it's on us not them. Given the ability to do whatever the #### you want with no repercussions most people would do exactly whatever the #### they wanted. The NFL does exactly that. 

 

[Chaka]

Sometimes one might have relatives and co-workers that show a pattern and one might surmise...

Of course, but I never apply my crazy racist uncle's perspective to the general population.

 

[Chaka]

calling things equally and fairly is what we're supposed to do

Was it equal and fair to say Kaepernick singled out white police?

 

[rockaction]

Of course, but I never apply my crazy racist uncle's perspective to the general population.

Oh, I should have read the whole passage, or, I guess I did, but in more detail then. I see. If he was extrapolating that out to the gen pop then that's kind of a logical fallacy, actually.  

 

[Chaka]

can't disagree - the market is what it is

I didn't make the claim that athletes are targeted because of the money they make with the suggestion that skin color and suppression etc that's being hinted at

this is all about money - plain and simple

Yup and it's the one thing the fans have control over.  No sports league will miss your specific dollars but that doesn't mean you should not withhold them.

In fact I am going to cancel my DirectTV online access right now. Not kidding.

 

[Stealthycat]

Was it equal and fair to say Kaepernick singled out white police?

do people call black police officers piggy's or slave patrol ?  how much protesting was about black officers shooting white and/or black civilians or was it all about white officers shooting black civilians?

maybe Kap did target all police - I doubt it

 

[Chaka]

do people call black police officers piggy's or slave patrol ?  how much protesting was about black officers shooting white and/or black civilians or was it all about white officers shooting black civilians?

maybe Kap did target all police - I doubt it

Of course they do, maybe they say "Uncle Tom"  or something similar instead of "pig" but of course they do.

Protesting was done because police were killing unarmed black men at an alarmingly high rate (still are).  The race of the victims was the issue, maybe your work colleagues who don't like Mack and Donald and people like them suggested otherwise but the general issue was Police vs Unarmed Black Men.  Not White Police.

 

[Stealthycat]

Yup and it's the one thing the fans have control over.  No sports league will miss your specific dollars but that doesn't mean you should not withhold them.

In fact I am going to cancel my DirectTV online access right now. Not kidding.

absolutely true

sad thing is.... FF has an impact too and I love FF ...... and I still love watching the NFL and the elite offense and defenses so I contribute too in certain ways

I don't want to know Hogan's religious views, or Cam's political views of David Johnson's personal ethics and morals. I want to see them play the game a they are very very very well paid to play. At the same time, pro athletes can have great impacts - look at what JJ Watt did - its HOW they present things that matter more than anything else and I said that long ago.

Had Kap had a great benefit fundraiser - and at the end said he ya'll, give me 30 minutes to talk equality ......that would have been amazingly different than not saying a word and wearing piggy socks or tweeting anti-police things or kneeling ...... he chose those routes because that was the message he chose to send

and many fans hated it - and Kap, and the 49'ers and the NFL and that snowballed to where we are today

didn't have to be that way

 

[Da Guru]

Was it equal and fair to say Kaepernick singled out white police?

Kappy is half-white half-black so he can rip on both black and white cops.

 

[Stealthycat]

Of course they do, maybe they say "Uncle Tom"  or something similar instead of "pig" but of course they do.

Protesting was done because police were killing unarmed black men at an alarmingly high rate (still are).  The race of the victims was the issue, maybe your work colleagues who don't like Mack and Donald and people like them suggested otherwise but the general issue was Police vs Unarmed Black Men.  Not White Police.

show me where black officers were targeted

the piggy socks were white piggie cops, not black

police are shooting unarmed PEOPLE at high rates - twice as many whites as blacks, right ?  Black cops shoot, white cops shoot, black people are shot, white people are shot, brown people are shot ............ all those are issues, not just a certain part

 

[Chaka]

absolutely true

sad thing is.... FF has an impact too and I love FF ...... and I still love watching the NFL and the elite offense and defenses so I contribute too in certain ways

I don't want to know Hogan's religious views, or Cam's political views of David Johnson's personal ethics and morals. I want to see them play the game a they are very very very well paid to play. At the same time, pro athletes can have great impacts - look at what JJ Watt did - its HOW they present things that matter more than anything else and I said that long ago.

Had Kap had a great benefit fundraiser - and at the end said he ya'll, give me 30 minutes to talk equality ......that would have been amazingly different than not saying a word and wearing piggy socks or tweeting anti-police things or kneeling ...... he chose those routes because that was the message he chose to send

and many fans hated it - and Kap, and the 49'ers and the NFL and that snowballed to where we are today

didn't have to be that way

Watt is a tremendous humanitarian, did wonders for Houston and deserves all the credit in the world.  But Kaepernick has had a far wider and longer lasting reach.  No one talks about Harvey on the national stage anymore but we are still discussing Kaepernick.  Racial injustice has been a front page, above the fold topic for two+ years now because of Kaepernick. He could have done a better job but I doubt he anticipated how far his reach would extend.  If he had I imagine he would not have worn the socks that seem to have some people so riled up that they dismiss his entire message because of one bad statement.  

 

[Chaka]

show me where black officers were targeted

the piggy socks were white piggie cops, not black

police are shooting unarmed PEOPLE at high rates - twice as many whites as blacks, right ?  Black cops shoot, white cops shoot, black people are shot, white people are shot, brown people are shot ............ all those are issues, not just a certain part

Did you just apply race to cartoon sock pigs?

 

[Stealthycat]

Did you just apply race to cartoon sock pigs?

sure

can you imagine if a white player wore white socks with black piggie officers?    how do you think that would go ?

 

[Chaka]

sure

can you imagine if a white player wore white socks with black piggie officers?    how do you think that would go ?

No I cannot because cartoon pigs are pink. Not white, not black, not brindle.  They're pink.

 

[Chaka]

"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust,” 

“There is police brutality. People of color have been targeted by police. So that’s a large part of it, and they’re government officials. They are put in place by the government. So that’s something that this country has to change. There’s things we can do to hold them more accountable, make those standards higher."

Nothing about the skin color of police.

 

[Chaka]

show me where black officers were targeted

the piggy socks were white piggie cops, not black

police are shooting unarmed PEOPLE at high rates - twice as many whites as blacks, right ?  Black cops shoot, white cops shoot, black people are shot, white people are shot, brown people are shot ............ all those are issues, not just a certain part

Sure twice as many white people as black people.  Then again there are about 5.3 times as many white people than black people in America so... 

 

[Stealthycat]

No I cannot because cartoon pigs are pink. Not white, not black, not brindle.  They're pink.

looks white to me - certainly not black officers on those socks

Sure twice as many white people as black people.  Then again there are about 5.3 times as many white people than black people in America so... 

so maybe .... when people break the law and do wrong things etc, they're the ones targeted and it has far less to do with color than its painted?

neither you nor I know the motives when an officer kills a person - many times its justified .... other things is unclear, sometimes its not justified and the officers are charged

120-150 police die in the line of duty every year, right ? How many more wounded when they're shot etc in the line of duty ?

I'm not defending police's actions all the time, but its exceptionally rare they get it wrong when you factor in every time police interact with civilians. very very small %

should they be 100% flawless and mistake free? sure - and I believe they're working towards that

are there officers who shouldn't be in that line of work? yes

better training needed? yes

targeting people based on skin color? very very rare IMO

 

[Interseptopus]

Sure twice as many white people as black people.  Then again there are about 5.3 times as many white people than black people in America so... 

There was a study that showed that taking into account the percentages of white people and black people in the US, you were still more likely to get shot by a police officer if you were white  

 

[matuski]

racism goes both ways - Kap's comments for example could easily be seen as racist towards white police ..... and in fact, it was exactly that. Funny nobody calls Kap the racist he appears to be with his comments

Ridiculous.

 

[Chaka]

looks white to me - certainly not black officers on those socks

so maybe .... when people break the law and do wrong things etc, they're the ones targeted and it has far less to do with color than its painted?

neither you nor I know the motives when an officer kills a person - many times its justified .... other things is unclear, sometimes its not justified and the officers are charged

120-150 police die in the line of duty every year, right ? How many more wounded when they're shot etc in the line of duty ?

I'm not defending police's actions all the time, but its exceptionally rare they get it wrong when you factor in every time police interact with civilians. very very small %

should they be 100% flawless and mistake free? sure - and I believe they're working towards that

are there officers who shouldn't be in that line of work? yes

better training needed? yes

targeting people based on skin color? very very rare IMO

Gonna go stream of consciousness with this one because you covered a lot of ground.

-"A system that perpetually condones the killing of people, without consequence, doesn't need to be revised, it needs to be dismantled!" Colin Kaepernick on the "Slave Patrol" tweet. 

-Do African Americans commit more crimes or are they accused of more crimes?  Born suspect.

-Police are sometimes charged, very rarely are they convicted. It looks like that may finally be changing.

-According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics 102 police officers died in the line of duty in 2015 and 127 in 2016.  Of those; 34 were homicides in 2015 and 51 were homicides in 2016. (Link to PDF)

-Civilians shot and killed by police by year: total (unarmed).  The Washington Post has an amazing searchable database that I strongly encourage people to view.

2015 - 995 (94), 2016 - 963 (51), 2017 987 (69), 2018 - 931 (41)

-Not killing people should be the standard for police.

-You say that we cannot know the motivations of people but then you presume to know the motivations of the same people in your last sentence.