Keys Myaths
Pokerguy
Can't even spell the region of your country correctly?
Link to proof? Undeniably insinuates proof. Let's see it.
If they broke rules, how is it not cheating?
Link? Proof?
Sure thing.TALK TO ME NOW!!!!
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Jets caught videotaping signals in Foxboro (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter scapegoat
- Start date
Scorehoard
Footballguy
The big picture:
Okay so in this instance we have a videotaping controversy. Yes the whole Jimmy Johnson can be taken as very vague in regards to cheating. I'm not suggesting its like baseball but performing enhancing drug use by individuals as well as teams/coaches using questionable judgment regarding info. on opposing teams should be no suprise and lastly through simply phone calls to former players on certain teams (see article). When rules/ laws are made people everyday push the interpretations of those finding ways around these laws/rules. That's why there are constant revisions, in every sport and in courts, to protect integrity of law/ sport. I'm no Nascar buff but take a look into what they have battled just in the last 5 yrs. Crew chiefs suspended and teams pushing the limits.
now read this: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...y_battle_p.html
Now onto the focal point of this thread....
If you read the article you have stepped further into why Belichick and Mangini are the way they portray. The best book ever written on the foundations of war, The Art of War by Sun Tzu. Belichick has successfully translated this reading into his ground work for a coaching philosophy. What does this have to do with anything? The Chpts. found in the book are as follows...
1. Strategic Assessments
2. Doing Battle
3. Planning a Siege
4. Formation
5. Force
6. Emptiness and Fullness
7. Armed Struggle
8. Adaptations
9. Maneuvering Armies
10. Terrain
11. Nine Grounds
12. Fire Attack
13. On the Use of Spies
I have read the book as I am trying to build a similar philosophy using this book. Chpts. 9, 11 and 12 have little to offer in translating to coaching but take a look at 13. Mangini like any young coach in the business will do anything to pick the brain of his mentor while showing much loyalty. Though it hasn't been made public, I'm guessing Mangini, sponge, absorbed as much info. possible and by taking the Jets vacancy broke what was likely a trustworthy friendship. Now Belichick has a disciple, mind you in his own division, putting his teachings to work. The two coaches will follow their blueprint in assessing one another formulating a game plan that would slow (cripple) the other. I say slow bc Mangini hasn't the personnel to win the battle. Spying is part of their philosophies and this week more than any will gather as much info. possible. In response to a previous post, NO the NFL should not rid of both of these philosophical coaches. Oh and don't make them have to shake hands after the game PLEASE... its just too dramatic for the press!
Okay so in this instance we have a videotaping controversy. Yes the whole Jimmy Johnson can be taken as very vague in regards to cheating. I'm not suggesting its like baseball but performing enhancing drug use by individuals as well as teams/coaches using questionable judgment regarding info. on opposing teams should be no suprise and lastly through simply phone calls to former players on certain teams (see article). When rules/ laws are made people everyday push the interpretations of those finding ways around these laws/rules. That's why there are constant revisions, in every sport and in courts, to protect integrity of law/ sport. I'm no Nascar buff but take a look into what they have battled just in the last 5 yrs. Crew chiefs suspended and teams pushing the limits.
now read this: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...y_battle_p.html
Now onto the focal point of this thread....
If you read the article you have stepped further into why Belichick and Mangini are the way they portray. The best book ever written on the foundations of war, The Art of War by Sun Tzu. Belichick has successfully translated this reading into his ground work for a coaching philosophy. What does this have to do with anything? The Chpts. found in the book are as follows...
1. Strategic Assessments
2. Doing Battle
3. Planning a Siege
4. Formation
5. Force
6. Emptiness and Fullness
7. Armed Struggle
8. Adaptations
9. Maneuvering Armies
10. Terrain
11. Nine Grounds
12. Fire Attack
13. On the Use of Spies
I have read the book as I am trying to build a similar philosophy using this book. Chpts. 9, 11 and 12 have little to offer in translating to coaching but take a look at 13. Mangini like any young coach in the business will do anything to pick the brain of his mentor while showing much loyalty. Though it hasn't been made public, I'm guessing Mangini, sponge, absorbed as much info. possible and by taking the Jets vacancy broke what was likely a trustworthy friendship. Now Belichick has a disciple, mind you in his own division, putting his teachings to work. The two coaches will follow their blueprint in assessing one another formulating a game plan that would slow (cripple) the other. I say slow bc Mangini hasn't the personnel to win the battle. Spying is part of their philosophies and this week more than any will gather as much info. possible. In response to a previous post, NO the NFL should not rid of both of these philosophical coaches. Oh and don't make them have to shake hands after the game PLEASE... its just too dramatic for the press!
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Sulla
Marius hates me
G
General Tso
Guest
Just videotaping his own team? Does he have secret camera that blocks out all the Patriot players? That's obsurd and obscene. I know firsthand about video. Before my accident I used to tape high school football. BIG NO-NO to tape from the end zone. Everyone knew it and noone did it. I wasn't even a part of the team and when I tapes from end zone I always got accosted and harrassed. If they took it this seriously in high school, how is it not a big deal in the pros?This story will be huge. I love it!! The grass isn't always greener on the other side, is it?!?!
thehornet
Footballguy
Eat crow Mangina. This guy is a fool.Just videotaping his own team? Does he have secret camera that blocks out all the Patriot players? That's obsurd and obscene. I know firsthand about video. Before my accident I used to tape high school football. BIG NO-NO to tape from the end zone. Everyone knew it and noone did it. I wasn't even a part of the team and when I tapes from end zone I always got accosted and harrassed. If they took it this seriously in high school, how is it not a big deal in the pros?This story will be huge. I love it!! The grass isn't always greener on the other side, is it?!?!
Road Warriors
Footballguy
So a story breaks on the Jets doing something and you refuse to believe because there's no proof. I can live with that.But a no story or speculation that the Pats have done anything since the Jets, and you want proof that they DIDN"T do something? Seems a little "agenda-ish" to me.
TommyGilmore
Footballguy
Because the Commissioner did not warn the league about it last season?
Keys Myaths
Pokerguy
Link to where I took sides on any of this?He said undeniable. Then he said the Pats haven't cheated since the Jets game.He can't prove either one. That's what I'm pointing out. I don't give a #### about any of this, but I do get a little worked up over people who make claim after claim that they can't prove. Spreading misinformation sucks.
Road Warriors
Footballguy
I highly doubt it. This story will have no legs after Sunday. No smoking gun, and the national media won't pick it up and blow it out of proportion. But it makes for a lively Wed. afternoon in the SP.Just videotaping his own team? Does he have secret camera that blocks out all the Patriot players? That's obsurd and obscene. I know firsthand about video. Before my accident I used to tape high school football. BIG NO-NO to tape from the end zone. Everyone knew it and noone did it. I wasn't even a part of the team and when I tapes from end zone I always got accosted and harrassed. If they took it this seriously in high school, how is it not a big deal in the pros?This story will be huge. I love it!! The grass isn't always greener on the other side, is it?!?!
BelichicksRevenge
Footballguy
There is no doubt taping by the Jets took place.http://www.theredzone.org/absolutenm/templ...01&zoneid=1
Road Warriors
Footballguy
I guess asking for proof that something didn't happen seems a bit disingenuous. Obviously, you can't prove that they didn't cheat since then.
Keys Myaths
Pokerguy
Then why make the baseless claim? That's my point.This thread is filled with them. It's amusing to see people get so worked up over this, sure...but at the same time, it's disheartening to see all the bad arguments/statements thrown in with them.
Keys Myaths
Pokerguy
This would be way too awesome.
Road Warriors
Footballguy
If it weren't for baseless claims, we could never have 10 page threads about nothing of substance. :(
Keys Myaths
Pokerguy
This made me chuckle.Considering I'm in pain from kidney stones, please refrain from doing this often.TIA
They all videotape from the press box. It's where their main game tape comes from. I can see why one would wan thte End Zone angle as well. My understanding of the memo is that no taping of the sidelines is allowed. Tape the field, but not the sidelines. It's a foolish rule, obviously lobbied for by teams that can't disguise their signals and/or decipher others, putting them at a disadvantage. To me, it's like complaining about the other team knowing you're passing when you run and empty backfield set.
Keys Myaths
Pokerguy
:(Fair enough.If it weren't for baseless claims, we could never have 10 page threads about nothing of substance.
Road Warriors
Footballguy
It was the official word of the month in Boston!!!
Reaper
Footballguy
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Reading comprehension down? I don't see where there was any wrong doing, which is what I said in the first place. I didn't doubt that there was any videotaping. But there's no proof of any cheating which is what the OP claims and many echo the sentiment. THey taped where the pats let them, how is that cheating?
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jscout
Footballguy
Not necessarily. In the article, Jimmy Johnson is quoted as saying he did that all the time. He was the Miami headcoach right after Shula left. So the book is still out. It should also be noted that they stunk under him, so if he did, it's further proof that it really didn't make much of an impact.jeez, so is Miami the only team who hasn't cheated?
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phthalatemagic
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Every scandal has interested apologists. S.O.P. now is to have talking points distributed to these folks so that the organization can stay on message. Clearly this was included in their talking points. Now that this has been noticed next weeks talking points will include an admonition to get out a damn thesaurus and to not parrot the talking points word for word.
jonessed
Footballguy
First it was the Colts that were also cheating then when that got debunked it was the Packers and now it's the Jets. Let it go. This doesn't happen all the time and not everyone cheats. New England cheated, they got caught, and they were punished. They have the cheating mantle at the moment. Maybe a few years down the line someone else will get caught and they will get to pass it on.
GregR_2
Footballguy
Skipped most of the thread after skimming the first few posts. My view on it:
1. If there are reports without evidence of the Jets illegally videotaping things, I'll view the Jets the exact same way as I view and have viewed every other team that there were reports they cheated, for example the Patriots (prior to Spygate when it was just reports without evidence) and the Broncos who are the first to come to mind.
2. If there is actual evidence that the league investigates and finds the Jets guilty, I'll view them exactly the same as I viewed the Patriots when they were similarly caught and found guilty. The Patriots furor erupted not after reports of cheating, but after hard evidence of it was handed over to the league.
3. If the Jets organization acts with the same smug indifference to what is going on as Belichick did, I'll view them the same based on that as I view Bill Belichick.
4. If the Jets go out and behave like poor sportsman against the teams they cheated against because they don't like the negative publicity their actions created, I'll think more poorly of them as I do with the Patriots.
5. If a large segment of the Jets fans behave in the same fashion as the Patriots fans did during Spygate, my view of Jets fans as a group will be affected the same as my view of Patriots fans was affected.
6. If it was my own team (Texans) that cheated I'd be more disgusted by it all than I would be if it was another team who did it.
1. If there are reports without evidence of the Jets illegally videotaping things, I'll view the Jets the exact same way as I view and have viewed every other team that there were reports they cheated, for example the Patriots (prior to Spygate when it was just reports without evidence) and the Broncos who are the first to come to mind.
2. If there is actual evidence that the league investigates and finds the Jets guilty, I'll view them exactly the same as I viewed the Patriots when they were similarly caught and found guilty. The Patriots furor erupted not after reports of cheating, but after hard evidence of it was handed over to the league.
3. If the Jets organization acts with the same smug indifference to what is going on as Belichick did, I'll view them the same based on that as I view Bill Belichick.
4. If the Jets go out and behave like poor sportsman against the teams they cheated against because they don't like the negative publicity their actions created, I'll think more poorly of them as I do with the Patriots.
5. If a large segment of the Jets fans behave in the same fashion as the Patriots fans did during Spygate, my view of Jets fans as a group will be affected the same as my view of Patriots fans was affected.
6. If it was my own team (Texans) that cheated I'd be more disgusted by it all than I would be if it was another team who did it.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I had not heard this. I heard that the Packers caught N.E. videotaping last year in Green Baby during a N.E. ### kicking of my beloved Pack. I heard the Packers stopped it ,but that they choose not to file a complaint with the league. I had not heard that the Packers had been caught, just victimized (actually victimized is too strong a word for such matters, victimized is what the Packers were on the field, not in the strategic preparations). Any link to your assertion?
switz
Footballguy
From the report I read, that you posted, I didn't see any cheating going on... and I find the timing of it's release more that just a little questionable.Bottom line, Patriots re cheaters, were caught cheating, league investigated and punished them. Apparently the league didn't view what the JEts did as cheating, or else they would have done the same.Nice try though...
they taped, Maangini acknowledges this. He says the Pats gave permission. Obviously the Pats felt differently, as the cameraman was removed. Now, we can decipher from Manginis statements that you need permission from the other team to do this taping. I would say they lacked said permission, hence the removal. Isn't doing what you're not supposed the do the definition of 'wrong doing'?
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Bossman
Footballguy
This whole thing strikes me as a "Pats kick the Jets camera off the sidelines, so the Jets rat on the Pats in the next game"
The only way this becomes anything is if the Jets admit to taping signals. That's not gonna happen.
... or, the person hired by the Jets to run the camera admits to videotaping signals and testifies against the Jets. Not likely.
But imagine what type of damage the loss of a 1st rd. pick would be for the Jets. Ouch.
The only way this becomes anything is if the Jets admit to taping signals. That's not gonna happen.
... or, the person hired by the Jets to run the camera admits to videotaping signals and testifies against the Jets. Not likely.
But imagine what type of damage the loss of a 1st rd. pick would be for the Jets. Ouch.
Bossman
Footballguy
wow, are you saying that Mangini didn't confess in that report? I guess he didn't do it then.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I don't see anywhere in that article that the Pats didn't give permission initially, just that at some point they decided to revoke it. Mangini says they do that every game and grant that permission to those that ask. It doesn't say when the cameraman was asked to leave or why. So therefore there is no proof of any wrongdoing.
The way I read it, it wasn't turned over to the league, so the league had nothing to say. Just as the alleged Packer incident with the Pats.
Pygmy Marmoset
Footballguy
That would be hilarious. Suddenly the clear class of the NFL, the Pats, are in the same division as two teams that might not win a game next year. Fantastic.
Pygmy Marmoset
Footballguy
Me too. As though the only think the Pats did wrong was actually turn everything over to the league.
sho nuff
Footballguy
No...he did not confess to cheating or breaking any rules.He confessed to taping the game, with permission...as he claims they have done for just about every game...as have other teams.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
So you remember it like I do. The Pats were up to their inexplicable and needless nefarious minor transgressions that are likely common around the league. The Packers caught them. In spite of receiving an ### kicking the Packers did not have sour grapes and turn petty rat basturds and turn the Pats in. Rather they just put a stop to it and said they have more immediate needs to address in the wake of the ### kicking than some video scouting of signals.
Bossman
Footballguy
Conversely, the only thing in the article that says the Pats gave permission initially is Mangini. He wouldn't have a vested interest in that line getting peddled, now would he?
Road Warriors
Footballguy
So BB has control over what the NY media writes? Wow, he is more powerful that I thought!
Wrigley
Footballguy
Where did the NY media get this story?
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Until there's a report from the Pats that he didn't have permission, then the title of this thread and it's implications are all just a bunch of speculative whining.
sho nuff
Footballguy
This was always the dumb thing to me.That they went after video tape.As if BB and his staff did not have that on computers and such.Just a funny thing.
Road Warriors
Footballguy
Didnt' they quote "a league source"? Serious question, I don't care enough to go back & read this schlock. This "story" is a huge non-issue. Likely a story that's been sitting around the newsroom until this week, when it'll sell the most papers.that said, its still funny to see this board summarily dismiss this because it wasn't brought before the league and blown up by the media.
wned:
