Diamond One
Footballguy
Anyone have insight and / or hearing rumors regarding Joe Horn's future? Not seeing much out there on him (kinda like the Stallworth situation)...
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Joe Horn (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Diamond One
- Start date
KoolKat
Footballguy
I hear the Falcons are after him right now, which would be FF suicide.
MelKiperJr
Footballguy
How so? I think this would be a good situation. Clearly would be the #1.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Non sequitur.
saintfool
Dead sexy
vick is a graveyard for WR's.
fsufan
Footballguy
i agreebut what top WR has he had?
Family Matters
Footballguy
WR isn't the problem. He has to be able to complete passes at a better than 50% clip. Craig Krenzel looked pretty good throwing to Jenkins and he's out of the NFL so I really don't think WR is the problem. In fact, if you look at what Doug Johnson did when he started he passed better than Vick has and that's with the exact same players. And then you have to ask this: Why hasn't a FA WR that's good gone to Atlanta? Outside of Price there have been no big names and yes I realize he's not that big a name. Maybe they observed that Price's numbers took a big hit after going to Atlanta. Having your numbers drop doesn't do much for incentives or getting new deals in free agency.
Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
This has been my call for months.He'd be the #1 and might actually teach these WRs what it takes to be an NFL WR.He also knows the division very very well and will play the Saints twice a year.Perfect sense.
Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
Sorry, but I've seen many many drops by Falcons WRs (and even Alge).For as few passes Atlanta / Vick throws, their drops are astronomical. The % of passes to drops has to be at least 15%.
Sidewinder
Footballguy
Making the broad assumption he can stay healthy enough to do so. Don't forget, you are talking about 35 year old WR who has missed 12 of 34 games the past 2 years.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I think it is unfair to place all of the blame at the feet of the WRs.Vick does not throw with any kind of predictable timing for the WRs to get used to. He is unlike any other QB in this regard and I don't think Horn or any other WR is going to change that.Vick may not deserve all of the blame for the poor WR performance but I do think he deserves the majority of it. There is more to this than the WRs dropping passes on him. He throws uncatchable balls at times and it is very hard for any WR to get into any kind of rhythm with him in thier routes as well.
Family Matters
Footballguy
You can make the exact same comments about Vick's passes. I'm sure there's plenty of balme to go around but the fact is he has a 50% (rough) lifetime pass comp %. That doesn't cut it too well. And again I refer you to D. Johnson. How does Johnson improve their passing game over Vick with the same players? While it isn't a huge improvement, remember we're talking Doug Johnson here versus Vick. This doesn't help Vick's case any.
Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
I understand what you are insinuating here (other QBs like Schaub do better with the same WRs), but from what I have heard it is because the receivers have more time to react to a slower ball. More time, easier to catch, more used to a softer pass.Sure this speaks to Vick's "touch" pass abilities, but I watched a lot of ATL games last year and I saw all kinds of drops. Deep balls on the hands of WRs that should have been caught (a deep ball on an arc can't be described as too hard of a pass speed-wise) and also passes over the middle and in the slot. Mostly deep balls that should have been TDs were dropped. Crumpler is the favorite target because of his size and (before last year) his sure-handedness. Even he wasn't infallible last season.I'd love to find a good and reliable source for drops, but I can't. I'll have to go through some game recaps, but believe me the drops are a big part of this.I'm not saying Vick is 100% blameless, but give him Wayne and Harrison and his numbers would be far superior.
Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
From the Game Summaries:
Ashley Lelie (2006 games):
Ashley Lelie (2006 games):
Michael Jenkins (2006 games):
Alge Crumpler (2006 games):
I looked at Michael Jenkins' write-ups but didn't see any reference to specific drops.Now, this is all selective commentary, but just read them - there's a number of "should have been a TD" comments here.
kellumsboys
Footballguy
this is gonig to be Horn's last shot at a nice contract.all he cares about now is the money, not his production after signing.
Family Matters
Footballguy
Jeff,
In answer to finding stats about drops, they have them at Stats Inc. Here's a link to drops:
http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/leader...2&Submit=Go
If look at drops in the NFC, you'll find Crumpler and White tied for 11th followed by Jenkins tied for 16th. Noticve the players ahead of them:
TO
DJax
Steve Smith
Bush
Driver
Franks
Galloway
Henderson
Troy Williamson
A. Green
Holt
Pittman
I mean some of these guys are considered the best in the business. I don't see anyone using them for excuses for their QB's. This involves Favre, Bulger, Hasselback & Brees just to name a few. Turns out they are able to still complete a high % of passes nad remain effective for thei teams.
Another stat worth noting is "Passes Not Caught". These are NFC players targeted that should of caught the ball but didn't. The only one from Atlanta is Crumpler at 19th. Other guys on the list:
Holt
Driver
Galloway
Boldin
R. Williams
TO
Burress
D.Jax
Shockey
S. Moss
How much more evidence do you need before you can no longer defend Vick? Besides, if their WR's were that bad, don't you think they'd get replaced? Why in the world would coaches keep guys detrimental to the team? It's not like they have huge contracts that can't be overcome.
If these guys were so bad then they'd be leading the league in drops and balls not caught. It just isn't happening.
Let's look at the Vick incompletions closer:
Passes Dropped: 21 which account for 11.4% of his incompletions and 5.4% of his attempts.
Poor Throws: 63 which account for 34.2% of his incompletions and 16.2% of his attempts.
Intercepted: 13 which account for 7.1% of his incompletions and 3.4% of his attempts.
His numbers are no worse than Bulger, McNabb, Romo, Brees or Manning. In fact you might find it interesting that P.Manning had 13.3% of his passes dropped 39% were poor throws. And yet he seems to overcome these factors and do pretty decent.
So not sure what it is you or anyone else sees but if you just look at the actual results you can find where the problems lie. And that's usually in the form of incomplete passes on the ground, just outside the recievers reach.
In answer to finding stats about drops, they have them at Stats Inc. Here's a link to drops:
http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/leader...2&Submit=Go
If look at drops in the NFC, you'll find Crumpler and White tied for 11th followed by Jenkins tied for 16th. Noticve the players ahead of them:
TO
DJax
Steve Smith
Bush
Driver
Franks
Galloway
Henderson
Troy Williamson
A. Green
Holt
Pittman
I mean some of these guys are considered the best in the business. I don't see anyone using them for excuses for their QB's. This involves Favre, Bulger, Hasselback & Brees just to name a few. Turns out they are able to still complete a high % of passes nad remain effective for thei teams.
Another stat worth noting is "Passes Not Caught". These are NFC players targeted that should of caught the ball but didn't. The only one from Atlanta is Crumpler at 19th. Other guys on the list:
Holt
Driver
Galloway
Boldin
R. Williams
TO
Burress
D.Jax
Shockey
S. Moss
How much more evidence do you need before you can no longer defend Vick? Besides, if their WR's were that bad, don't you think they'd get replaced? Why in the world would coaches keep guys detrimental to the team? It's not like they have huge contracts that can't be overcome.
If these guys were so bad then they'd be leading the league in drops and balls not caught. It just isn't happening.
Let's look at the Vick incompletions closer:
Passes Dropped: 21 which account for 11.4% of his incompletions and 5.4% of his attempts.
Poor Throws: 63 which account for 34.2% of his incompletions and 16.2% of his attempts.
Intercepted: 13 which account for 7.1% of his incompletions and 3.4% of his attempts.
His numbers are no worse than Bulger, McNabb, Romo, Brees or Manning. In fact you might find it interesting that P.Manning had 13.3% of his passes dropped 39% were poor throws. And yet he seems to overcome these factors and do pretty decent.
So not sure what it is you or anyone else sees but if you just look at the actual results you can find where the problems lie. And that's usually in the form of incomplete passes on the ground, just outside the recievers reach.
Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
Thanks for the drops link. I'll have to add it to "useful links" on my list.Here's what I'm getting at - Atlanta doesn't throw that much, so their drops are a bigger % of the targets.
Look at these numbers:
That's 3 of the Top 13 in the NFC who couldn't catch. Don't know how to explain it better than that.
Family Matters
Footballguy
Go back to my post and read the bolded part. That's how Vick compares to other QB's. He is often less victimized by drops than his peers so your point isn't valid. In fact if you look at the other QB's I mentioned you'll see they often have a higher % of passes dropped than Vick does. Look at Manning for example.
Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
First off, I'm not defending Vick per se, just pointing out what I see. He's a Top 10 QB in FF however you slice it. I see WRs and TEs letting him down when I watch his games, which lends itself to a lower completion percentage and lost chances.
I'll have to look more at this when I have more time, but I don't see how Manning could have had 13.3% of his passes dropped when I only see Marvin (7) and Reggie (8) on the list of dropped passes. How is 15 adding up to 13.3%????? I'll go ahead and double it for any WRs/TEs/RBs not listed (which is a gross exaggeration), giving you 30 drops. 13.3% means that Manning only threw about 225 times last year. He actually threw 557, so he'd have to have about 80 drops on his team to get close to 13.3%.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
I'm suprised by the drop numbers for White, Jenkins and Crumpler. To be honest, I thought they were significantly higher and Lelie had his share as well.
What also doesn't get taken into account is that when I watch other teams WR's invariably about 1-2x game you'll see a WR make a truly extraordinary catch. This happens for the Falcons perhaps 1-2x/month. I know this number is going to be lower due to the fewer amount of times the Falcons threw the ball, but Vick gets an unfair share of the blame here...
What also doesn't get taken into account is that when I watch other teams WR's invariably about 1-2x game you'll see a WR make a truly extraordinary catch. This happens for the Falcons perhaps 1-2x/month. I know this number is going to be lower due to the fewer amount of times the Falcons threw the ball, but Vick gets an unfair share of the blame here...
SproutDaddy
Footballguy
Horn would be the best receiver Vick's had, even at the tender age of 37.
SproutDaddy
Footballguy
This statemend is ridiculous. You've obviously never watched a Falcon's game. Hanging out with LOD will get you nowhere.
There is something wrong with these numbers. Where did you get the statistic for "poor throws". i couldn't find it at your site. But if you look at your totals for Manning: 65% completions, 13.3% passes dropped and 39% poor throws? Does that mean his receivers caught appx 40% (65 + 13.3 + 39 = 117% means 17% had to be duplicated somewhere 17/39 is appx 40%) of his poorly thrown balls? If so, thats amazing, given the balls he threw away toa void a sack and the interceptions, virtually every other time Peyton threw it was caught or dropped. I assume that if a ball was caught it wasn't poorly thrown. Peyton may be great, but he isn't that great.
Family Matters
Footballguy
Again, you misread what I posted. The % were of incomplete passes, not all passes. And again, we are talking about how Vick compared to his peers on the % of incomplete passes. If his WR's were so bad then they'd be dropping a higher % of them as compared to the better WR's. These stats say that's not the case.Jeff Pasquino said:
Family Matters
Footballguy
I honestly believe that if you look tohard you can find things that just aren't there. We've all seen Vick make great plays and bonehead plays. We've seen the WR's make great plays and bonehead plays. We can say the same about all the other teams as well.But at the end of day if we fail to understand why someone with seemingly so much talent isn't performing better than we think they should, then we press to ask why. Then every mistake becomes magnified. It's easy to watch a couple of his games and focus in on one or two plays per game as the cause. So in order to see what's really going on you have to look at the entire body of work and look at it from the actual results in order to get a true understanding. When you do you find that his stats don't lie. He's not a good passer.TheDirtyWord said:
Family Matters
Footballguy
This may not be far from the truth. But then again, if Horn (assumming he signs) fails miseribly like the others then we can just say he was too old and it isn't Vick's fault.SproutDaddy said:
Family Matters
Footballguy
What part is ridiculous? I've seen many games of Vick's including several this year. Now if you are suggesting that it's rediculous to allow stats to be part of the evaluation, then what can I say? Clearly the evidence suggests he's failing as a passer.SproutDaddy said:
Family Matters
Footballguy
Poor throws can be founf under the individual QB pages at the bottom. The stats are a % of incompletions, not total passes. There are other catagories defined on this page. Here is the link for Manning: http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=4256This brings it back to comparing apples to apples. Jeff and others contend that Vick is at a disadvantage with his WR's. The stats say that's not reality. That doesn't mean that the ATL WR's are good as Manning's. But they are no worse at dropping passes than the Indy WR's. So the difference must be in the QB. The stats say that Manning still competes better than 65% of his passes while Vick is around 54%.Willowdoc said:
I think this validates that the WR's are not the problem. They may be a part of the problem but clearly they are far from being the issue. Oh and when you can further show Doug Johnson throwing better than Vick with the same players then I think all arguements for Vick have little credibility.
With that said I should clarify that I realize Vick is effective as a QB because of his running abilities and that helps overcome his passing issues. I also realize that he's a decnt fantasy start in spite of his passing issues or at least he is in league that allow QB rushing to count the same as RB rushing. My comments are geared toward Vick the NFL passer.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
Given that I have seen every Falcons home game in person for the last 5-6 years as well as the fact that I watch and TiVo all games for post-week analysis and off-season "Falcon Fixes"...I consider myself somewhat boned up on the subject of the Falcons - what their ails are, what their strengths are. During games, I'll focus on certain areas of the field where TV won't show. When I concentrate on the WR's I'm often shocked by how simple it seems for the DB to stay in their hip pocket. If the other 31 teams are performing at the same level of the Falcons WR's, then they should all be brought in for grand larceny because they are stealing millions upon millions of dollars.So if you can match that level of insight - feel free do so without waxing poetic. Vick has his flaws, that is not up for dispute. But his receivers are awful and the one rock he did have in the passing game this year in Crumpler was wildly inconsistent. It's not only about dropped passes, it's about the WR's ability to gain separation from the defender, finding the soft spots in the zone, and becoming a feared threat on the field. These are areas that neither White or Jenkins have been able to develop any level of proficiency. Vick still needs work. He'll never have the consistent pin point accuracy or the grasp/instinct of where to go with the football like a Peyton Manning. Vick's bigger problems to me have more to do with leadership and inspring his teammates to greater heights.But I'll leave you to go back to your calculator and prepare for your 2007 Mock Drafts...
Family Matters
Footballguy
Not sure why you're being so defensive about this but I'll try to keep this on a level that focuses on Vick. Now if you take your bolded comments above and combine that with his stats then I think it completes the picture. It's possible that Vick's leadership issues are effecting his teams willingness to make plays. If they don't want to go to war for him then I think it shows in ways that can't be measured, except in the results. In fact Vick has called out his teammates a few times so I would not be surprised if they or some of them felt this way. I have no way to know but you have to wonder.If you really think that Vick is not the biggest part of the problem and that it's mostly on the WR's then fair enough. But when you look for some evidence, not opinion, to support that theory then it becomes difficult. I think any reasonable person would agree that if a WR is the problem it will show in measurables that are commonly used to compare positional players. Combine that with observations and you get the total picture.
Of course I haven't seen the number of games you have so I'm not near the expert you are on the Falcons. But when I have seen him Vick has only impressed me on the rare occassion. And that's usually with his scarmbling. I can assure you I have no vested interest in his performance so it really makes no difference to me if he plays well or not. It's just my obervations, visually and statistically and togther they form my opinion.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
So if you are looking at the whole body of work, then why are you only focusing on Vick...?Doesn't it take one person to throw the ball and one to catch it? The leadership issues I speak of have more to do with accepting responsibility for the fate of the Falcons. Comments like "I don't know what else I could have done..." at the end of a 7-9 season and the HC getting fired are traits of lousy leadership. But such voids cannot be illustrated by dragging out the stats of Doug Johnson who actually had a similar completion percentage and a significantly worse TD:INT ratio.
Your arguments though far as I can tell completely ignore the ineptitude of the Falcons WR corps. We've also not even broached the subject of the Falcons inexplicable choice to protect Vick with Offensive Lineman more proficient in zone blocking schemes rather than pass protection.
The overall point I have made is that the Falcons breakdowns on offense have been a combination of many factors, Vick included. However, when the performance (or lack thereof) of the Falcons offense is the topic of conversation, Vick is the entire focus of the critique for the most part. But if you were to rate:
1) The Falcons WR's
2) The Falcons O-Line (from a pass protection standpoint)
...both would rank in the bottom quarter if not worse in the NFL. Those are pretty important pieces for any QB to have success in the NFL. At the end of the day, let's not see stats as the end all be all of any players performance. It's quite simple to make the argument that Vick generated close to 3500 yards of offense and compare that with all other QB's, but it would ignore that a decent degree of it is done on his own without involving other facets of the offense. It would also ignore that on many of his rushing yards, he's turning chicken shyte into chicken salad.
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Tau837
Footballguy
I agree this is an overlooked point. There are two ways WRs can hurt the QB--drops and failing to make plays that are there to be made. Not only are Vick's WRs the worst group at drops, but they are also the worst at making plays. The latter is just my feeling from watching games, there is no way to prove/disprove it.TheDirtyWord said:
Tau837
Footballguy
An old post on Vick's throws:
So, given that Vick is not significantly worse than other good QBs at poor throws, what is the explanation if not for the play of his receivers, which is obviously and demonstrably at the bottom of the league?
Rovers
Footballguy
Hate to hijack this Vick thread, but Horn to SD would make a ton of sense to me. McCardell was washed up, but had a mini-rebirth at SD. SD could surelyuse a vet WR, and Horn would seem a very nice stop gap for them. From Horn's perspective, it's a team that has "ears on" the super bowl (sorry about that) and it's a nice city. No better revenge than to leave N.O. and get a ring.
suchislife
Footballguy
Exactly what I'd expect to find in a Joe Horn thread.
Like another earlier (rational) poster, I too watch every Falcons game.
Let's ignore all these fancy stats and percentages on drops, and I'll break it down for you even easier.
In 2006 for the Falcons, I can recall at least five individual plays, drops by the receiving target, that if caught were an easy TD for an NFL player.
-Mike Vick did have 20 TD passes in 2006.
-If at least five of those plays are made, Vick has 25+ TD passes and 1000+ rushing yards in a season.
Would the hate on Vick stop then? Does the man have to have a 30TD season? 35?
The 2006 Falcons red zone offense was hurting from the absence of Brian Finneran (injured, out for the season in the preseason) and TJ Duckett (traded to Washington in a 3-way trade for a WR bust, Lelie). I would definitely consider the Falcons WR corp as one of the bottom 5 in the NFL, if not the worst. The Falcons OL is built around zone-blocking for the run, but they are undersized and inable to provide a stable pocket. The Falcons have not used high draft picks on the OL, instead going after WRs and CBs. I am hoping in April, the Falcons can put themselves into a position to grab some top lineman prospects, and they resist the urge to reach for another WR. Yes the team needs to add receiving playmakers, but unless they trade up to get Calvin Johnson, I really don't see any other WR in this class being worth the #10 pick.
Clearly, Vick is not a perfect player, and his behavior on and off the field is often quite immature. Physically, like Drew Brees, he is lacking in ideal QB height to create passing lanes. Comparing him to two heralded players in his draft class, Vick does have more playoff wins than Brees and LT combined. Like Steve Young, he is a left handed thrower (trivia tip: Vick is actually ambidexterous, he writes with his right hand) with stronger talents in the mobility department. Here's to hoping a former teammate of Young's, Falcons QB coach Bill Musgrave, can get Vick's butt in gear so Atlanta fans get a QB that is worth $100M.
edit-- back to the original topic, Joe Horn, if he signs with the Falcons I hope the falcons dont overspend on a guy who will essentially be a 3rd down player and mentor. Horn + 1 more good playmaker (prob that 2nd round pick in the draft, unless the Falcons trade down) would be an upgrade.
Let's ignore all these fancy stats and percentages on drops, and I'll break it down for you even easier.
In 2006 for the Falcons, I can recall at least five individual plays, drops by the receiving target, that if caught were an easy TD for an NFL player.
-Mike Vick did have 20 TD passes in 2006.
-If at least five of those plays are made, Vick has 25+ TD passes and 1000+ rushing yards in a season.
Would the hate on Vick stop then? Does the man have to have a 30TD season? 35?
The 2006 Falcons red zone offense was hurting from the absence of Brian Finneran (injured, out for the season in the preseason) and TJ Duckett (traded to Washington in a 3-way trade for a WR bust, Lelie). I would definitely consider the Falcons WR corp as one of the bottom 5 in the NFL, if not the worst. The Falcons OL is built around zone-blocking for the run, but they are undersized and inable to provide a stable pocket. The Falcons have not used high draft picks on the OL, instead going after WRs and CBs. I am hoping in April, the Falcons can put themselves into a position to grab some top lineman prospects, and they resist the urge to reach for another WR. Yes the team needs to add receiving playmakers, but unless they trade up to get Calvin Johnson, I really don't see any other WR in this class being worth the #10 pick.
Clearly, Vick is not a perfect player, and his behavior on and off the field is often quite immature. Physically, like Drew Brees, he is lacking in ideal QB height to create passing lanes. Comparing him to two heralded players in his draft class, Vick does have more playoff wins than Brees and LT combined. Like Steve Young, he is a left handed thrower (trivia tip: Vick is actually ambidexterous, he writes with his right hand) with stronger talents in the mobility department. Here's to hoping a former teammate of Young's, Falcons QB coach Bill Musgrave, can get Vick's butt in gear so Atlanta fans get a QB that is worth $100M.
edit-- back to the original topic, Joe Horn, if he signs with the Falcons I hope the falcons dont overspend on a guy who will essentially be a 3rd down player and mentor. Horn + 1 more good playmaker (prob that 2nd round pick in the draft, unless the Falcons trade down) would be an upgrade.
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Family Matters
Footballguy
This could be a good fit indeed. Has anyone heard if SD is interested? Are they going to have him come in? Another reason he would be a good fit is that he could help the young WR's transition and develop.
Tau837
Footballguy
I don't see Joe Horn as a good fit for San Diego at all. Their top two receiving targets are Gates and Tomlinson, so WRs are not as important in their offense as in some others. And they have an emerging talent in Vincent Jackson, along with a solid possesion WR (notwithstanding his playoff performance) in Eric Parker. They also have Floyd, another young WR with plenty of potential at WR3.
If they were to upgrade WR, it shouldn't be with a possession receiver, as Gates, Tomlinson, and Parker all essentially fill that role. It should be with a downfield playmaker, since Jackson and Floyd are the only candidates for that and are relatively unproven. This might help keep everyone out of the box focusing on Tomlinson and/or open up the shorter/underneath routes a bit for Gates and Parker.
Effective downfield playmakers usually aren't 35+. Drew Bennett might have been interesting. Darrell Jackson had been rumored to be on the block a while ago, and he would have been interesting. Joe Horn? Not so much.
If they were to upgrade WR, it shouldn't be with a possession receiver, as Gates, Tomlinson, and Parker all essentially fill that role. It should be with a downfield playmaker, since Jackson and Floyd are the only candidates for that and are relatively unproven. This might help keep everyone out of the box focusing on Tomlinson and/or open up the shorter/underneath routes a bit for Gates and Parker.
Effective downfield playmakers usually aren't 35+. Drew Bennett might have been interesting. Darrell Jackson had been rumored to be on the block a while ago, and he would have been interesting. Joe Horn? Not so much.
Sidewinder
Footballguy
Better than going to a division rival and playing the Saints twice a year ?
If SD won the SB with Joe, most people around here (New Orleans) would say good for him; helping the Falcons beat the Saints would be a totally different reaction.
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I agree Horn would be a great fit for SD. The washed up WR duo. J/K Horn was a great WR for the Saints and I hate to see him go. It's a shame that he was injured for two straight seasons, or he would have had a nice extension.
comfortably numb
Footballguy
WR J. Horn Passes Physical, Still Talking
Veteran WR Joe Horn passed his physical and met with Falcons' coaches and staff members Tuesday, according to a source. Contract talks may have taken place after Horn passed the physical, the person said, however Horn left team's Flowery Branch facility late Tuesday afternoon without a deal. The Falcons and Horn have been talking since last Friday. Horn's preference would be to play with Atlanta, although there has been interest from other teams, including Green Bay.
Veteran WR Joe Horn passed his physical and met with Falcons' coaches and staff members Tuesday, according to a source. Contract talks may have taken place after Horn passed the physical, the person said, however Horn left team's Flowery Branch facility late Tuesday afternoon without a deal. The Falcons and Horn have been talking since last Friday. Horn's preference would be to play with Atlanta, although there has been interest from other teams, including Green Bay.
