Joey Harrington (1 Viewer)

[Doug Drinen]

I was just doing some random querying of my database and I accidentally stumbled across the following fact: Since 1980, there have been 352 instances of a QB throwing 400 or more passes in a season. Of those 352, the very bottom two in terms of yards per attempt belong to Joey Harrington. That is astounding. To have the single worst season would be one thing. But he's got the two worst. His two seasons in the league rank #351 and #352 out of 352. I know that people's opinions of yards/attempt as a measuring stick vary, and I know that Harrington is young and not exactly in a potent offense, but still, sheesh. Those 350 other QBs contain a lot of young guys in rough situations. Just something interesting I noticed.

 

[BoneYardDog]

I do know that if you go to the Lions message board that you will find an awful lot of Lion fans that really think he is not an NFL caliber quarterback and that he absolutely does not have what it takes to make it...I unfortunately have him in one of my leagues...

 

[Austin Powers]

how could anyone have decent stats throwing to ricky schroeder, ozzy hakim, and the rest of those kircus clowns? not to mention a completely subpar runing game the past two years. it's amazing this team won any games this year. once they can get some better wide receivers, a healthy charles rogers, and a haelthy running back look for those numbers to improve! based on those numbers it can't get any worse.

 

[cracKer]

Harrington's YPA while Rogers was healthy: 5.2

 

[Burning Sensation]

how could anyone have decent stats throwing to ricky schroeder, ozzy hakim, and the rest of those kircus clowns?

I get a funny feeling Peyton Manning would look pretty good with those WR's.

 

[Chris Smith]

Joey Harrington 2003 season COMP Pct. is 55.8% / 17 TD passes / 22 Interceptions / 5.20 YPAJoey Harrington 2002 season COMP Pct. is 50.0% / 12 TD passes / 16 Interceptions / 5.33 YPA2 Year Total COMP Pct. 53.2% / 29 TD passes / 38 Interceptions / 5.26 YPA---1989 Season COMP Pct. 52.9% / 9 TD passes / 18 Interceptions / 5.97 YPA1990 Season COMP Pct. 56.6% / 11 TD passes / 18 Interceptions / 6.46 YPA2 Year Total COMP Pct. 55.0% / 20 TD passes / 36 Interceptions / 6.25 YPA---Has Joey Harrington struggled as a pro? Yes, most certainly but I wouldn't give up on him yet. The Player I compared him to is Troy Aikman. Yes his YPA is low but he has managed to throw 9 more touchdown passes while throwing only 2 more picks.

 

[cracKer]

Joey Harrington 2003 season COMP Pct. is 55.8% / 17 TD passes / 22 Interceptions / 5.20 YPAJoey Harrington 2002 season COMP Pct. is 50.0% / 12 TD passes / 16 Interceptions / 5.33 YPA2 Year Total COMP Pct. 53.2% / 29 TD passes / 38 Interceptions / 5.26 YPA---1989 Season COMP Pct. 52.9% / 9 TD passes / 18 Interceptions / 5.97 YPA1990 Season COMP Pct. 56.6% / 11 TD passes / 18 Interceptions / 6.46 YPA2 Year Total COMP Pct. 55.0% / 20 TD passes / 36 Interceptions / 6.25 YPA---Has Joey Harrington struggled as a pro? Yes, most certainly but I wouldn't give up on him yet. The Player I compared him to is Troy Aikman. Yes his YPA is low but he has managed to throw 9 more touchdown passes while throwing only 2 more picks.

Are you inferring that Troy Aikman was good and don't give me any of that Super Bowl crap

 

[The Houston Stallions]

Ah.........and I can remember the debates on who was the better pro QB/fantasy QB.................David Carr or Harrington

 

[beto]

Well, look at it this way. He's 2 for 2.Seriously, I do think he has had everything working against him in order to make this happen. Aikman's first two years are a good comparison showing that things can be turned around. A lot of other good QBs would have had aweful stats if they were thrown to the fire on a horrible team in their 1st 2 years.Look at Vinny's 2nd year466 attempts, 7.0yards/attempt, 13 TDs, 35 INTsDoug, what's up with the copyright symbols?

 

[Arm Chair Express]

Harrington's YPA while Rogers was healthy: 5.2

Still no running game. Its easy to defend the lions. You can blitz at will and no one in the backfield to freeze the linebackers in coverage so the quick west coast offense passes don't amount to much without the run after the catch yards. I'm not saying Joey is or isn't NFL caliber, but until Detroit put a NFL caliber team on the field I'm not giving up on the guy. He's been given nothing to work with. When he does throw good passes ther're dropped. I can't remember the number, but after Rogers got hurt they ran off about 6-7 games without a wided receiver catching a TD pass. Thats pathetic. As much as the lions need help in the secondary, I still think they need to add offensive talent around Harrington to see if he's for real or not.

 

[Vivian Darkbloom]

I don't really see this as an indictment of Harrington.

I see it as another example of why it's a poor idea to begin a re-building project with a Qb. A Qb's job isn't to win games, a Qb's job is to facilitate his teammates in their attempts to win games.

He's the conductor, and the Rb's and Wr's are the musicians. But if the musicians are all talentless hacks, even the world's finest conductor still isn't going to coax Beethoven's 5th out of them. Likewise, if the surrounding cast is brilliant, even a mediocre conductor/Qb can make beautiful music -- see also maestros Dilfer, Johnson, and Warner.

Assemble the orchestra first, then add the conductor, or you're setting your team up for failure.

 

[Bri]

Ty Detmer had one year there where he may have only played a handful of games but oh my was it brutal. I think he even had 6 or 7 INTs in one game. Just awful IMO. He'd get my vote

 

[Bri]

VD, I think it's a double-edged sword when ya look at it that way. I've usually found that a solid RB changes everything for the QB. So in theory, if the Lions were to get Joey a 1300 yard back, his stats would drastically improve.Warner had Faulk, Dilfer had Jamal(and IIRC he didn't play that much the first 4 or 5 games), Peyton had Edge, Troy had Emmitt....it's just a theory but IMO I'd change yours a tad to be "if you don't have a solid RB it's pointless to start an inexperienced QB."

 

[Doug Drinen]

Seriously, I do think he has had everything working against him

Yeah I know, but still, in the past 25 years there have been tons of young QBs thrown into the mix with no receivers or running game. And none of them --- not one of them --- was as bad at getting yards as Joey was. That was his rookie year. And then he was even worse last year. There is an enormous difference between 6.2 YPA (Aikman's first two years) and 5.2. Just to clarify, I'm not really suggesting that Harrington is actually the worst QB in history, what I'm suggesting is that, so far he's been bad. Real bad. Real, real bad. Almost Ryan Leaf bad. And no one seems to be talking about it. Granted, I don't have my finger on the pulse of the Lions, but I've yet to hear anyone in the national media suggest that Harrington is anything other than a promising young QB experienceing some growing pains.

Doug, what's up with the copyright symbols?

I wish I knew. It appears that my browser (Mozilla) is converting every period I type into a copyright symbol. And then it's converting them back to periods when I view them so I don't notice anything strange. Only when I look at it on another browser do I see the funny business. This is posted from a different browser. How does it look?

 

[cobalt_27]

It appears that my browser (Mozilla) is converting every period I type into a copyright symbol.

This, I imagine, is part of the reason Bill Gates is going to be Knighted this year.Harrington's far from the worse qb of all-time, but he hasn't progressed as much as I had hoped/thought he would. It's gotta' be said pretty prominently, however, that's a seriously bad team surrounding him; I know some of the 350 other QBs had bad teams, themselves, but this...this one exceptionally brutal.Let's take a step back and wait for a little more data to roll in before we start talking about him as the worst QB of all-time and all that. It may just be that he's had statistically the worst first two years in history. But, as was shown earlier, Aikman obviously struggled his first two years, and we know that THAT story ends in the Hall of Fame.And, yes, Aikman was a great, great quarterback, and anyone who argues this point either a) wasn't paying attention, b) hates the Cowboys, or c) your name is Skip Bayless.

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

Yeah I know, but still, in the past 25 years there have been tons of young QBs thrown into the mix with no receivers or running game. And none of them --- not one of them --- was as bad at getting yards as Joey was. That was his rookie year. And then he was even worse last year. There is an enormous difference between 6.2 YPA (Aikman's first two years) and 5.2.

Just to clarify, I'm not really suggesting that Harrington is actually the worst QB in history, what I'm suggesting is that, so far he's been bad. Real bad. Real, real bad. Almost Ryan Leaf bad. And no one seems to be talking about it. Granted, I don't have my finger on the pulse of the Lions, but I've yet to hear anyone in the national media suggest that Harrington is anything other than a promising young QB experienceing some growing pains.

I wish I knew. It appears that my browser (Mozilla) is converting every period I type into a copyright symbol. And then it's converting them back to periods when I view them so I don't notice anything strange. Only when I look at it on another browser do I see the funny business. This is posted from a different browser. How does it look?

Move the figure to 350 pass attempts or 300.How's it look now?

 

[yetiknight]

VD, I think it's a double-edged sword when ya look at it that way. I've usually found that a solid RB changes everything for the QB. So in theory, if the Lions were to get Joey a 1300 yard back, his stats would drastically improve.Warner had Faulk, Dilfer had Jamal(and IIRC he didn't play that much the first 4 or 5 games), Peyton had Edge, Troy had Emmitt....it's just a theory but IMO I'd change yours a tad to be "if you don't have a solid RB it's pointless to start an inexperienced QB."

Uh, did you mention Trent Dilfer? What relevance could he possibly have in this forum? I'm not trying to pick at you, but I don't see any comparison that he would fit. Unless you want to say something like,"Dilfer has a Super Bowl Championship and he is one of the biggest busts in NFL history." Please don't tell me you think Dilfer is good. That would be too much.

 

[Doug Drinen]

Move the figure to 350 pass attempts or 300.How's it look now?

With a minimum of 300 attempts, we're now looking at 545 quarterback seasons. Harrington's seasons rank at #542 and #543. If you want to take it back to 1970 instead of 1980 (minimum still at 300 attempts), Harrington's years rank 665 and 667 out of 671.If you limit the search to QBs who were 25 or younger on teams that were 5-11 or worse, you've got 42 guys. Almost all of those guys have the same excuses Harrington has. Harrington ranks #40 and #41 out of 42. Only Steve DeBerg 1978 was worse.

 

[aaronr28]

Along with having no run game and the worst collection of WRs in the league to throw to, I think a big part of the reason for Joey having such a low Y/A can also be traced to these 3 factors:#1 They run a west coast offense with lots of quick drops and short routes. Very rarely do you see Detroit throw deep.#2 His completion % is near the bottom of the league among starting QBs. Obviously, low completion % = low Y/A.#3 Joey avoids taking sacks by throwing the ball away probably as well as any other QB in the league. This hurts his passing numbers, but can be considered a good thing for the team.Taken in combination, you have a guy who has no weapons to work with, who is not very patient at progressing through his reads and will throw the ball away if things look bad, who is not a very accurate passer, and even when he does complete a pass it is normally only for a short gain. Looks like the perfect storm for generating a low Y/A for QBs. A running game to take some pressure off of him and more confidence in his WRs should allow him to become more comfortable and relaxed in the pocket, leading to a higher completion % and eventually more big plays.

 

[Da Guru]

I thought the same thing until I watched the Lions play the Rams. I think Joey is going to be OK! Without a doubt he has the "worst" WRs in the NFL after Rodgers was hurt! Bill "alligator arms" Schroeder and Az "hands of stone" Hakim

 

[Spartans Rule]

#1 They run a west coast offense with lots of quick drops and short routes. Very rarely do you see Detroit throw deep.#2 His accuracy is near the bottom of the league among starting QBs. Obviously, low accuracy means low Y/A.#3 Joey avoids taking sacks by throwing the ball away probably as well as any other QB in the league. This hurts his passing numbers, but can be considered a good thing for the team.

#1 and #3 are true. As for #2, Joey's accuracy isn't even all that bad. The drops just kill the completion percentage.I remember during one game early in 2003 a graphic came up showing the team leaders in dropped passes. The Lions were first with 33, while the Redskins were 2nd with 20! I decided to see what Joey's comp % would like if he had 13 more completions (in effect, if his WRs had only the 2nd worst hands in the league), and it was close to 60%. Of course that would boost his Y/A as well.Anyone know where I could find team drop stats for the whole season? I'd be interested to play around again and see what Joey's #s might have looked like if anyone on his team could catch.

 

[8623]

Personally, I'd lean more towards Danny Weurffel

 

[cracKer]

Anyone know where I could find team drop stats for the whole season? I'd be interested to play around again and see what Joey's #s might have looked like if anyone on his team could catch.

Joey Harrington: 8.1% of his overall attempts were passes dropped. 15.2% were poorly thrown.others:

Bledsoe: 4.0/20.4

Brady: 4.9/15.0

Brooks: 5.0/14.1

Bulger: 3.4/13.9

Carr: 5.8/16.3

Carter: 5.7/17.4

Collins: 4.8/16.8

Couch: 4.9/13.8

Culpepper: 3.3/13.2

Delhomme: 5.1/14.3

Favre: 4.0/15.1

Fiedler: 3.5/19.4

Garcia: 5.4/17.3

Green: 7.5/14.0

Hasselbeck: 7.2/13.8

Johnson: 3.5/13.7

Kitna: 3.7/16.0

Leftwich: 5.3/19.4

Maddox: 5.6/14.1

Manning: 5.5/12.0

McNabb: 6.3/18.8

McNair: 5.5/14.8

Pennington: 4.0/12.8

Plummer: 4.0/12.6

Ramsey: 6.5/20.2

Vick (02): 6.9/18.1 (03) 6.0/17.0

So, Harrington was the worst bitten by his set of receivers with Trent Green the only player even coming close. Culpepper and Bulger suffered the least.

Edited to add that Peyton Manning is really good.

 

[cracKer]

I know that people's opinions of yards/attempt as a measuring stick vary...

Yes it does. I was thinking about a player like Donovan McNabb. He also had a low YPA during his first two seasons (5.5) and took a ton of heat for it. He's gotten that number up into the mid-6's (career high 6.7 this year) which is respectable, but you'd still like to see your QB in the 7 range. Manning hasn't been under 7 since his rookie year (6.5), McNair's lowest number over the last 4 years is 6.9, and Daunte Culpepper has never posted a sub-7 YPA.Of course, the thing that separates McNabb from the YPA argument (as well as the QB rating) has always been his rushing skills.

Harrington does not bring that ability to the table and, unless we see a drastic turnaround, the Lions are going to have a hard time winning if they plan on riding him. I think that '04 will be a huge season in his development, with or without an running game. If we don't see an improvement in his numbers, such as YPA, they will have to look elsewhere.

Just for comparisons, you'd think that Michael Vick would've had a lower YPA during his first 2 seasons, but even he had a combined 7.0

 

[thesurfshop19]

Joey Harrington: 8.1% of his overall attempts were passes dropped. 15.2% were poorly thrown.

others:

Plummer: 4.0/12.6

Was anyone else surprised by this number?Looking back, it's easy to say that Plummer had a pretty decent season. But during the season, I never got the impression that he was *this* accurate. Hopefully, this bodes well for future Broncos seasons.

 

[cracKer]

Joey Harrington: 8.1% of his overall attempts were passes dropped. 15.2% were poorly thrown.

also for reference, Harrington's '02 numbers: 5.1/22.6While he did improve in a few areas from 02-03, his teammates did not.

 

[Norseman]

Manning hasn't been under 7 since his rookie year (6.5), ..., and Daunte Culpepper has never posted a sub-7 YPA.

That goes to show that having good receivers (which Detroit doesn't) will greatly help your YPC.

 

[cobalt_27]

That goes to show that having good receivers (which Detroit doesn't) will greatly help your YPC.

Yeah, and maybe it has something to do with the quality of the quarterback. I dunno, just a hunch that plays a role.Look, I'm a Duck alumn and one a pretty big Harrington homer. But, with that said, let's just agree here to never mention Joey in the same sentence as Peyton Manning again, okay? Receivers or no receivers, it's just not a safe comparison to make.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Thanks cracker, great stuff.As I thought, the Lions drops were just awful. Surprisingly, Harrington's poor throw % was not all that bad.Harrington will never be Peyton Manning, but I think he does have what it takes to be a good NFL QB. The numbers are terrible, but so were Jake Plummer's before he went to Denver. Supporting cast is huge and it isn't fair to write off Joey until he has one.That said, if he doesn't show some marked improvement next year, it'll be time for the Lions to explore other options.

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

Joey Harrington had Az Zahir Hakim and Bill Schroeder as his STARTING receivers, no running game and an average line.With a decent back, Charles Rogers returning and some improvements on the line Harrington should move up towards the middle.Of course with Matt Millen running the show he'll be starting Troy Walters and R Jay Soward at WR, with Lawrence Phillips toting the rock

 

[Armageddon T. Thunderbird]

TO did say that Mooch's offense was too conservative....For the person who mentioned Wuerffel, his career YPA is 6.07 and in his last season it was 7.82. That's right, Harrington's YPA numbers pale in comparison to DANNY WUERFFEL. Think about that.The 2002 draft stunk for QBs. Ramsey is the best of the bunch and even he plays like Rob Johnson much of the time.

 

[Spartans Rule]

TO did say that Mooch's offense was too conservative....

As a self-centered WR, TO isn't exactly the authority on offensive balance.Mooch wasn't conservative when Garner was his feature back. But when he had the league's best offensive line and two good backs, he went to the running game. He plays to his strength just like any good coach.This past year in Detroit, the Lions didn't have much talent anywhere on offense. So Mooch went conservative to make things easier on Harrington and slow down the games. The result? A 5-11 record with a team that had no business beating anyone besides Arizona.Mooch knows his stuff and will get the most of Harrington. How much that is remains to be seen.

 

[Portis 26]

It's not just that Harrington has had terrible WRs (Charles Rogers being the only exception but he was hurt most of last season), it's that QBs usually struggle in their first few years of the West Coast Offense. It's obviously a complicated system that takes a while to pick up.

 

[cracKer]

It's not just that Harrington has had terrible WRs (Charles Rogers being the only exception but he was hurt most of last season), it's that QBs usually struggle in their first few years of the West Coast Offense. It's obviously a complicated system that takes a while to pick up.

How long?These guys are thrown into the fire and expected to produce while learning on the job when they should be watching from the sidelines.Salary History 2002 1300000.00 2003 300000.00 2004 380000.00 2005 4950000.00 2006 4450000.00 2007 4450000.00 The Lions have a serious decision to make when the '04 season ends.

 

[Tau837]

#2 His completion % is near the bottom of the league among starting QBs. Obviously, low completion % = low Y/A.

It does not follow that low completion % = low ypa. A QB who throws deep frequently can have a healthy ypa while still having a low completion %. Harrington's low completion % is only matters because of your first point, that he never throws downfield.

 

[Slider]

McNabb still sucks at comp pct and YPA. People think he's somethin special.

 

[Tau837]

The numbers are terrible, but so were Jake Plummer's before he went to Denver.

Just for comparison's sake, here are their numbers in their first two seasons combinedlummer: 26 g, 481/843 (57.1%), 5940 pass yds (7.05 ypa), 32 pass TDs, 35 intsHarrington: 30 g, 524/984 (53.3%), 5174 pass yds (5.26 ypa), 29 pass TDs, 38 intsSo Plummer's first two seasons were much better than Harrington's. On the other hand, Harrington's first two seasons are better than Plummer's 3rd and 4th, which were much worse than his first two. (Does this imply that Harrington could get worse? )Furthermore, Plummer had a much better supporting cast in his first two seasons. He had Rob Moore and Frank Sanders, who combined for 4700+ yards in those two seasons, and his running game was ranked 30th and 21st. In comparison, the highest season receiving yardage total for any Detroit WR in the past two seasons is 595 (Schroeder in 2002), and the Detroit running game has ranked 29th and 32nd.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Great thread. As someone who has probably only watched 4-6 Lions games the past two years, I'm in the "O4 or bust" camp for Harrington. As doug pointed out, Joey hasn't just been bad, he's been historically bad. Twice. In two tries.Great players find a way to play well at times even when they're surrounded by less than average talent. There's no doubt that Harrington's surrounding cast has stunted his growth statistically, but I think writing off his consecutive dismal years b/c he doesn't play with big names in other offensive skill positions is giving Joey a pass. Another terrible year in 04 and we'll be talking about how Joey "just needs a change of scenery".

 

[aaronr28]

Patrick Ramsey

2002: 9 TDs in 10 games played (.90)

2003: 14 TDs in 11 games played (1.27)

Overall: 23 TDs in 21 games played (1.10)

Joey Harrington

2002: 12 TDs in 14 games played (.86)

2003: 17 TDs in 16 games played (1.06)

Overall: 29 TDs in 30 games played (.97)

David Carr

2002: 9 TDs in 16 games played (.56)

2003: 9 TDs in 12 games played (.75)

Overall: 18 TDs in 28 games played (.64)

Here are the passing TD numbers for all 3 first round QBs from 2002. For fantasy purposes, at least Joey is getting the ball in the end zone. And, I think he's been doing it with a surrounding cast that is significantly worse than the other 2 guys have had. I know this is not the best way to evaluate QB performance, but what is up with David Carr barely averaging 1 passing TD for every 2 starts?

 

[tommyGunZ]

Not to give Carr a free pass, but the offense he runs is much more conservative.

 

[azgroover]

Here are the passing TD numbers for all 3 first round QBs from 2002. For fantasy purposes, at least Joey is getting the ball in the end zone. And, I think he's been doing it with a surrounding cast that is significantly worse than the other 2 guys have had. I know this is not the best way to evaluate QB performance, but what is up with David Carr barely averaging 1 passing TD for every 2 starts?

You're right that its not the best way to evaluate a QB performance...in fact its a very bad way. Using this logic, John Kitna (103 TDs in 84 gms), Jeff George (154 TDs in 133 gms), and Erik Kramer (92 TDs in 83 gms) all prove to be better QBs than Troy Aikman (165 TDs in 165 gms). Todd Marinovich is even with Troy (8 TDs in 8 gms) Good luck getting someone to buy that theory. Try again.

 

[aaronr28]

You're right that its not the best way to evaluate a QB performance...in fact its a very bad way. Using this logic, John Kitna (103 TDs in 84 gms), Jeff George (154 TDs in 133 gms), and Erik Kramer (92 TDs in 83 gms) all prove to be better QBs than Troy Aikman (165 TDs in 165 gms). Todd Marinovich is even with Troy (8 TDs in 8 gms) Good luck getting someone to buy that theory. Try again.

however, it is a very good way to evaluate FANTASY QB PERFORMANCE which was my point. Troy Aikman was never a good fantasy QB as clearly evidenced by his average of 1 passing TD per game played.Good luck getting someone to take you seriously around here.Shouldn't you be about Drew Henson threads somewhere?

 

[azgroover]

Shouldn't you be about Drew Henson threads somewhere?

No, I shouldn't be. Bashing Joey Harrington is my #1 obsession. Henson's not even a close 2nd.

 

[Goat Herders]

I know this is not the best way to evaluate QB performance, but what is up with David Carr barely averaging 1 passing TD for every 2 starts?

:quietvoicessst......he's not that good.....HERD

 

[aaronr28]

I know this is not the best way to evaluate QB performance, but what is up with David Carr barely averaging 1 passing TD for every 2 starts?

:quietvoicessst......he's not that good.....HERD

yet, I've seen people trying to pass him off as one of the best up and coming QBs in the game.I kind of like him, but for fantasy purposes, he's done nothing to this point to suggest he'll ever be anything special. Meanwhile, everybody rips on their favorite whipping boy Joey Harrington who at least has a 17 TD season and 8 multi-TD passing games thus far. In comparison, David Carr hasn't thrown for double digit TDs in a season, has only has 4 multi-TD passing games, and actually has a streak of 6 straight games WITHOUT throwing a single TD pass.

 

[Goat Herders]

Carr's problem is his head, not his ability. I do not like guys that act like every touchdown pass is deserving of a Keg-party. I've said it once and I'll say it again: Every time I see Carr sprinting down the field to celebrate a TD with his teammates, I think, "What was he expecting?" You guys can flame me all you want for being too hard on a guy for showing "passion" and "enthusiasm", but jeez Davey....act like you've done it before.HERD

 

[rabidfireweasel]

And, I think he's been doing it with a surrounding cast that is significantly worse than the other 2 guys have had. I

I cannot agree that Carr had a significantly better supporting cast in 2002 than Harrington. They had one of the worst offensive lines in the history of football, James Allen and Jonathon Wells a running back, Corey Bradford, Jermaine Lewis and Jabar Gaffney (the rookie version) at wide out and Billy Miller who is a very marginal tight end. It speaks volumes about the quality of a team when Billy Miller is your go to guy on offense.Having said that, I think that Tony Banks outplayed david Carr this year, and that is very troubling.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

You guys can flame me all you want for being too hard on a guy for showing "passion" and "enthusiasm", but jeez Davey....act like you've done it before.HERD

I think when you get into the endzone as rarely as Carr, you can't help but get excited.

 

[PlanetSocks]

When your team is one of the worst teams in history (how many straight road losses? 24?) it usually follows that your quarterback will have have some of the worst seasons in history.I've been a supporter of Harrington and I've relied on the "get him some talent, ANY talent and let's see how he does" argument. Olandis Gary, Shawn Bryson, Az Hakim, Billy Shroeder, Whatever Kircus, etc.... these guys couldn't start for any team in the entire league. Peyton Manning couldn't even get his YPA over 6.5 with this collection of talent. Heck, just look at Mike McMahon's YPA last year (2.8).I'm holding off on my final assessment of Harrington until he's got Charles Rogers on the field and someone in the backfield that can at least make a play. I'm assuming that will happen this season, but considering that practically every move that Millen has made has been a mistake there's no guarantee of this happening any time soon.

 

[aaronr28]

And, I think he's been doing it with a surrounding cast that is significantly worse than the other 2 guys have had. I

I cannot agree that Carr had a significantly better supporting cast in 2002 than Harrington. They had one of the worst offensive lines in the history of football, James Allen and Jonathon Wells a running back, Corey Bradford, Jermaine Lewis and Jabar Gaffney (the rookie version) at wide out and Billy Miller who is a very marginal tight end. It speaks volumes about the quality of a team when Billy Miller is your go to guy on offense.Having said that, I think that Tony Banks outplayed david Carr this year, and that is very troubling.

I will concede that the Texans were probably just as bad (if not worse) than the Lions in 2002.BUT, in 2003, the Texans dramatically improved their offensive line, and also added Domanick Davis and Andre Johnson who both had monster years, yet David Carr's TD total remained at 9. I know they are an expansion team but the way the Lions blew everything up and started over, they were practically starting from ground zero as well.

Even Tim Couch came into Cleveland in their first year in existence and threw 15 TDs.

Carr's TD production is far below what would normally be expected by any reasonable standard for a player taken #1 overall, and I'm curious why so many people are willing to cut him so much slack yet are seemingly very willing to run Harrington out of the league and banish Ramsey to the bench.

Getting 17 passing TDs out of a season with this pathetic group of WR/TEs is rather impressive to me:

| Scotty Anderson 17 325 19.1 2

| Az-zahir Hakim 9 449 9.2 4

| Shawn Jefferson 6 46 7.7 0

| David Kircus 3 53 17.7 0

| Charles Rogers 22 243 11.0 3

| Bill Schroeder 36 397 11.0 2

| Reggie Swinton 9 100 11.1 0

| Casey Fitzsimmons 23 160 7.0 2

| Mikhael Ricks 37 434 11.7 2

If he can squeeze 17 TDs out of those guys, just imagine what he might be able to do with Rogers and another legit target or 2 to throw to PLUS a quality NFL starting RB! Is it really that crazy to think he might eventually throw for 30 TDs in a season?

I wouldn't bet on it, but he might not be far away from becoming a quality fantasy QB.