Joey Harrington (1 Viewer)

[rabidfireweasel]

BUT, in 2003, the Texans dramatically improved their offensive line, and also added Domanick Davis and Andre Johnson who both had monster years, yet David Carr's TD total remained at 9. I know they are an expansion team but the way the Lions blew everything up and started over, they were practically starting from ground zero as well.Even Tim Couch came into Cleveland in their first year in existence and threw 15 TDs.Carr's TD production is far below what would normally be expected by any reasonable standard for a player taken #1 overall, and I'm curious why so many people are willing to cut him so much slack yet are seemingly very willing to run Harrington out of the league and banish Ramsey to the bench.

Carr was mediocre, then he got hurt in week 8, then less than mediocre, then hurt iat the beginning of the Buffalo game in week 11, then bad. He really only played in about 9 1/2 games. However, I would agree that he is way overrated on this board. As I mentioned before, I think Banks outplayed him by a good deal. Banks was more accurate, threw for a higher rate of td's, a lower rate of turnovers, and the team was winning more often. People who think Carr is top ten dynasty QB ought to consider that.

 

[Significant Shrinkage]

Clearly, Harrington is not the worst QB in NFL history. I can think of a dozen who were worse, but in terms of starting QB's, his stats seem to indicate he is pretty much the worst, especially considering there have been worse supporting casts than the 2003 Detroit Lions. I really believe he will improve drastically with a decent running game and a healthy Charles Rogers for a full season.

 

[Goat Herders]

People who think Carr is top ten dynasty QB ought to consider that.

People who think he's a top15 dynasty QB ought to consider that...HERD

 

[cracKer]

 

[LHUCKS]

I think what is being missed is that Joey had to adapt to a new system with new players last year...the best of which were both injured(Stewart/Rogers) for most/all of the year.Although the statistics support the assertions being made, this is yet another case of the statistics not telling the entire story. It is ludicrous to label somebody the worst QB in the history of the game given Harrington's circumstances. Was Brett Favre the worst player in the history of the game during his tenure at Atlanta...I mean afterall, he didn't even get to play Harrington = value in '04

 

[cracKer]

Was Brett Favre the worst player in the history of the game during his tenure at Atlanta...I mean afterall, he didn't even get to play

Harrington = value in '04

Mr. Drinen doesn't use small sample sets, we're talking every QB EVER!!! (or close)I'd rather see an argument against the validity of YPA rather than a blast towards Brett Favre (who's lowest YPA was 6.3, BTW)

Harrington = hot seat in '04

 

[Unlucky]

Great thread. I am a big believer in YPA as an effective measuring stick for QBs. Of course for fantasy purposes, rushing stats have to figure in. YPA is one of the few stats that correlates well with points scored for an offense. YPA combines accuracy with downfield passing and YAC.I wasn't aware that Harrington was this awful, but I have to say, he's had one of the worst supporting casts ever. The WCO may be based on accurate, short passes, but it is also requires some YAC on those slant routes. The WRs in Detroit have been abysmal over the past two seasons. No help from the RBs either in catching any passes and making something of it. I think Harrington likely won't ever be good, but maybe it's not all his fault.

 

[Outnumbered]

I'd say detroit should allow him enough time to gel with a healthy rogers, and newcomers williams and jones - maybe a season or two. that should be a better measure of his true potential than the previous two years.

 

[BigRed]

Just to clarify, I'm not really suggesting that Harrington is actually the worst QB in history, what I'm suggesting is that, so far he's been bad. Real bad. Real, real bad. Almost Ryan Leaf bad. And no one seems to be talking about it.

Probably because it's a ridiculous idea. So is coming to that conclusion based on ONE stat. lol @ comparing to Leaf, wtf?Harrington hasn't exactly lit it up, but he's had squat to work with...and I've seen HOF QBs who looked as bad or worse early in their careers. Talk to me in a year or 2.

 

[LHUCKS]

Just to clarify, I'm not really suggesting that Harrington is actually the worst QB in history, what I'm suggesting is that, so far he's been bad.  Real bad.  Real, real bad.  Almost Ryan Leaf bad.  And no one seems to be talking about it. 

Probably because it's a ridiculous idea. So is coming to that conclusion based on ONE stat. lol @ comparing to Leaf, wtf?Harrington hasn't exactly lit it up, but he's had squat to work with...and I've seen HOF QBs who looked as bad or worse early in their careers. Talk to me in a year or 2.

Exactly

 

[Dirty D-Towne Dogs]

I'm a Detroit homer. Either Harrington steps it up this year or steps it on out. 3 years should be plenty in the WCO under the same coach and recently improved weapons. We shall see.

 

[Bailiver]

THIS thread (and others like it) are why I hang around this site some 3 months before anybody else in my league.

 

[salmonstud]

I'm a Detroit homer. Either Harrington steps it up this year or steps it on out. 3 years should be plenty in the WCO under the same coach and recently improved weapons. We shall see.

I'm with Buffy. I'm a Detroit Homer as well. Joey has the weapons now. If he doesn't show a great improvement the last 1/2 fo the season, I'll be voting that we go in a new direction at QB. Maddox in 2005!

 

[bueno]

Yeah Baby! Let's have Rick Meyer start. After all, his YAtt was 5.7 last year and 6.3 over the past 3 years. Harrington gets one more shot before he joins that Batch (career YAtt = 6.8) of lousy Detroit QBs riding the pine elsewhere. The Detroit offense has been in sad shape for a long time. Has Collins been to Detroit recently?

 

[BigRed]

I'm a Detroit homer. Either Harrington steps it up this year or steps it on out. 3 years should be plenty in the WCO under the same coach and recently improved weapons. We shall see.

I'm with Buffy. I'm a Detroit Homer as well. Joey has the weapons now. If he doesn't show a great improvement the last 1/2 fo the season, I'll be voting that we go in a new direction at QB. Maddox in 2005!

I would say "improvement" (ie more than slight) but not necessarily "great" improvement. Not that he doesn't get/share any blame, but again remember:- only last year did he get a quality WR- WRs usually take a year or 2 to really come on (although Rogers looked good early on last year)- their RBs were HORRIBLEetc. Just saying I'd give the guy a little more slack due to his situation.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

Carr's problem is his head, not his ability. I do not like guys that act like every touchdown pass is deserving of a Keg-party. I've said it once and I'll say it again: Every time I see Carr sprinting down the field to celebrate a TD with his teammates, I think, "What was he expecting?" You guys can flame me all you want for being too hard on a guy for showing "passion" and "enthusiasm", but jeez Davey....act like you've done it before.HERD

Don't forget Herd, that Joey Harrington does the same thing. I don't know if you watch Detroit games, but when Joey hits someone for a TD of 20 yards or more, he sprints into the endzone full blast and jumps in their arms like the Lions just won the Super Bowl.What these guys have in common are they both are extrmely young. They only just finished their second year. I'm not going to flame you for your opinion but I think these guys have so much pressure on them and they play on teams that really aren't that good that when something good happens on their offense, they celebrate it.I certainly understand the point about " Act like you've done it before." Like when Peyton does it, he walks off the field and starts thinking about how he's going to do it next series. That's great, something for those young guys to strive for.But Detroit and Houston have not been good offensive teams, and those 2 guys were drafted and paid big money to jump start those offenses. I think when they score on passing plays you're just seeing a release of emotion that must be building up for lots of different reasons. They're all human beings underneath those helmets.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

I can't think of any QB that would be effective with Az Hakim and Bill Schroeder as their top weapons for all but 5 games of the past two seasons, one of them his rookie year. Add to that a porous interior offensive line that resulted in Harrington throwing the ball away to avoid sacks a very large number of times. He has a real quick trigger when it comes to tossing it into the seats, and that pushes down his YPA. Harrington showed improvement down the stretch last year, and with the improved running game and better receiving weapons, I think he'll start to show some of the potential that led him to being drafted 3rd overall.

 

[Callas Disregard]

1. Everyone saying that Detroit was exceptionally brutal must have no memory. There are teams every year worse than Detroit. Even last year, San Diego and Arizona were worse. Atlanta was pretty bad too. There was nothing "exceptionally" bad about Detroit's team. Now, their management is a whole different story.2. Stop it with the Aikman praise. Aikman was an above average NFL QB and a below average fantasy QB. Don't be a homer.3. Throwing the ball away is not a good thing when "away" means INT. Sometimes you're supposed to take the sack. Harrington throws it to the DBs and LBs to avoid the sack. Sorry, but that's NOT considered good.

 

[Ray]

1. Everyone saying that Detroit was exceptionally brutal must have no memory. There are teams every year worse than Detroit. Even last year, San Diego and Arizona were worse. Atlanta was pretty bad too.

3. Throwing the ball away is not a good thing when "away" means INT. Sometimes you're supposed to take the sack. Harrington throws it to the DBs and LBs to avoid the sack. Sorry, but that's NOT considered good.

Give me a freaking break. Az/Schroder/Bryson is FAR worse than Boston/Parker/LaDainianFreakinTomlinson & Boldin/Bryant/Shipp.As for throwing INTs to avoid sacks, I think you're flat wrong here. I know for certain that at least 6 of Joey's 16 INTs were on passes that hit his WRs! His WRs dropped more of his passes than any other group in the league.

Joey has been bad so far. There's no reason to try to exaggerate his suckiness.

Here's hoping he improves this year

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

1. Everyone saying that Detroit was exceptionally brutal must have no memory. There are teams every year worse than Detroit. Even last year, San Diego and Arizona were worse. Atlanta was pretty bad too. There was nothing "exceptionally" bad about Detroit's team. Now, their management is a whole different story.2. Stop it with the Aikman praise. Aikman was an above average NFL QB and a below average fantasy QB. Don't be a homer.3. Throwing the ball away is not a good thing when "away" means INT. Sometimes you're supposed to take the sack. Harrington throws it to the DBs and LBs to avoid the sack. Sorry, but that's NOT considered good.

Wow, Duffman couldn't disagree with you more in some areas here.First, Detroit has lost like 20 plus games in a row on the road. They're a pitiful football team. They've won 1 playoff game since Super Bowl 1, that's right, 1 playoff game.They are bad, year after year.Aikman was a great NFL QB. He's going to be a HOFer and has 3 SB rings. He wasn't a great fantasy QB because he played on a team that had a RB that rushed for more yards than any other RB in the history of the game. They were a ball control team, that passed to keep teams honost. Many times they had leads in the 4th quarter and had drives of 5 minutes plus at 4 yards per carry that just knocked teams out.However, if you've ever seen Troy pass a deep ball or the 20 yard out, you'd know not to say that he's just an above average QB.Yep, Harrington throws too many INT's. But a lot of the time it's because he's trying to make something happen, or when they're behind and forcing it in, trying to make the big play. Lots of talk about Harrington this off-season, some will be correct like yourself if he's no good this year, and others will be correct in saying this is the year he blossoms. I would be one of those.

 

[Chris Smith]

As I have said before, it is very unfair to label Joey Harrington 'a horrible quarterback' based on these first two seasons. There are several reasons for this ...(1) Very little learning curve from the sidelines... he was thrust into a starting situation right off the bat.(2) Perhaps the worst receiving core in the NFL. Heck, it is one of the worst receiving cores I have ever seen (Schroeder + Hakim = disaster waiting to happen). Losing Charles Rogers last season was a terrible blow.(3) Terrible running game: The Lions did have James Stewart in 2002 which helped a little but Harrington was a rookie just trying to find his way. Last season, he had little chance for success with no legitimate receivers and simply a horrific running game.(4) A fairly complexed offensive system: It isn't easy to come into the NFL and run a WC offense. It is hard enough for a young quarterback to read everything a defense is throwing at him. *** Was Harrington's YPA terrible? Yes you bet it was.However in the WC offensive system, passes are designed to be quick, short passes. The offensive playmakers are supposed to turn those small gains into large ones. I don't have this information but I would be willing to bet that very rarely did one of the Lions' receivers catch the ball five yards from the line of scrimmage and turn it into a 20+ yard gain. That is what has been missing in regards to this offense.Fast Forward to 2004...Reasons for Optimism1. Improved rushing game with Kevin Jones / Artose Pinner2. Improved receivers (Charles Rogers / Roy Williams and AZ Hakim slotting in as the slot guy which is his strength)3. Another season of development for Joey Harrington.The Bottom line...This is the season that he must show improvement on the field but I am betting he will indeed do so and will be a solid NFL quarterback this year. He YPA will go up by at least one full point and his completion percentage and touchdown to interception percentage will both be improved.

 

[amnesiac]

Nevermind. I just saw that cracKer had already posted some numbers on the Lions' drops. I will add, though, that I still really like Harrington's potential, and expect him to be putting up some great numbers around mid-season. I fully expect the first couple of weeks to be a little rough. Joey's a real competitor, and has a good head on his shoulders. I think he puts it together this year.(Edit for redundant stat posting.)

 

[Doug Drinen]

Man, I had no idea this thread would grow these kind of legs.

1. Everyone saying that Detroit was exceptionally brutal must have no memory.

Agreed.I certainly cannot dispute that the odds have been stacked against Harrington, but the Lions are just "regular bad," not historically bad. Just to put it in perspective, if you look at all QBs who are young and playing for bad teams and have a bad supporting cast, Harringon's numbers still don't look good.

Here is a list of examples. All of the following guys were in their 1st, 2nd, or 3rd years. All of them played on teams that were 6-10 or worse. All of them had dreadful supporting casts. All of them had better YPAs than Harrington:

Jack Trudeau in his rookie year.

Team record: 3-13

RB: Randy McMillan

Top Receivers: Bill Brooks / Matt Bouza

Craig Whelihan in his 2nd year

Team record: 5-11

RB: Means

Top Receivers: Charlie Jones and Bryan Still

David Klingler in his 3rd year

Team record: 3-13

RB: Harold Green

Top Receivers: Jeff Query and a pre-breakout Carl Pickens

Mike Pagel in his rookie year

Team record: 0-8-1

RB: Randy McMillan

Top Receivers: Matt Bouza / Tim Sherwin

Cade McNown in his 2nd year:

Team record: 5-11

RB: James Allen

Top Receivers: Robinson / Kennison

Browning Nagle in 2nd his year

Team record: 4-12

RB: Brad Baxter

Top Receivers: Rob Moore / Chris Burkett

Trent Dilfer in his 2nd year

Team record: 6-10

RB: Errict Rhett

Top Receivers: Courtney Hawkins / Robb Thomas

Jeff George in his 2nd year

Team record: 1-15

RB: over-the-hill Eric Dickerson

Top Receivers: Bill Brooks / Jessie Hester

Chris Miller in his 2nd year

Team record: 5-11

RB: John Settle

Top Receivers: Stacey Bailey / Floyd Dixon

Tim Couch in his rookie year

Team record: 2-14

RB: Terry Kirby

Top Receivers: Kevin Johnson / Darren Chiaverini

Heath Shuler in his rookie year

Team record: 3-13

RB: Ricky Ervins

Top Receivers: Henry Ellard / Desmond Howard

Mark Brunell in his 2nd year

Team record: 4-12

RB: James Stewart

Top Receivers: Willie Jackson / Cedric Tillman

Vinny Testaverde in his 3rd year

Team record: 5-11

RB: Lars Tate

Top Receivers: Mark Carrier / Bruce Hill

Craig Erickson in his 2nd year

Team record: 5-11

RB: Reggie Cobb

Top Receivers: Courtney Hawkins / Horace Copelan

Timm Rosenbach in his 2nd year

Team record: 5-11

RB: Johnny Johnson

Top Receivers: Ricky Proehl / over-the-hill Roy Green

Now before anyone starts telling me how good Errict Rhett or Marcus Robinson were, I'll remind you that James Stewart ain't bad, that Bill Schroeder was good enough to be Brett Favre's number one receiver over a three-year period and that Harrington's numbers weren't a whole lot better when Charles Rogers was healthy than when he wasn't.

Before anyone starts making comparisons to Carr, I'll say that I'm not too impressed with him either.

Before anyone again correctly points out that YPA is not the end-all be-all, that's true. However, it is IMO the single most important stat. And, more importantly, it's not like Harrington's numbers in any other area are good enough to cause us to overlook that. His interception percentage, TD percentage, and completion percentage are below average (and I'd bet quite a bit worse than average if you compare to league norms) even among young QBs who played for terrible teams.

Worst QB ever? Probably not. We'll have to wait and see.

Worst stats ever? At this point in his career, he is a strong candidate for that.

 

[allfaulkedup]

that Bill Schroeder was good enough to be Brett Favre's number one receiver over a three-year period

Ghandi could be Brett Farve's number one reciever for three years, but I will admit Schroeder was a bigger target.

 

[Organized Chaos]

Man, I had no idea this thread would grow these kind of legs.

1.  Everyone saying that Detroit was exceptionally brutal must have no memory.

Agreed.I certainly cannot dispute that the odds have been stacked against Harrington, but the Lions are just "regular bad," not historically bad.

Choking down the lions game the past three years, I have to disagree with the "regular bad" statement... And so do the record books...Here is just one headline after the set the record for most consecutive road game losses, now Joey wasnt there for all of them, but he certainly cant be blamed for those he played in...

Lions make NFL history for road game futility

'It hasn't been fun,' Mariucci says of team's embarrassing 24 losses

Also, there are other stats to support the fact that the Lions have been horrible, like the amount of drafted talent from previous years that is still on the team etc.... Personally, I think that Joey will actually have a chance to shine this year, I think that the Lions need a QB that celebrates his TD's the way he does, he gives a spark that the team desperatly needed....

 

[Ray]

Before anyone again correctly points out that YPA is not the end-all be-all, that's true.  However, it is IMO the single most important stat.

Can you factor SackYards/Attempt or maybe just Sacks/Attempt in there too?Getting sacked kills drives like nothing short of a turnover. It also leads to a fair number of fumbles. For as damaging as it is to the team, it's a shame that it helps the QB's YPA & Completion percentage.I'll take 0.5 off my YPA if it saves me two sacks per game.With as bad as Carr's traditional numbers were his rookie season, I can't imagine what they'd look like with sacks taken into account.

 

[Captain Quinoa]

Chris Miller in his 2nd yearTeam record: 5-11RB: John SettleTop Receivers: Stacey Bailey / Floyd Dixon

:rotflmao: I've watched football since 1979 and I have NO idea what team this even is.

 

[Doug Drinen]

Can you factor SackYards/Attempt or maybe just Sacks/Attempt in there too?Getting sacked kills dives like nothing short of a turnover. It also leads to a fair number of fumbles. For as damaging as it is to the team, it's a shame that it helps the QB's YPA & Completion percentage.I'll take 0.5 off my YPA if it saves me two sacks per game.With as bad as Carr's traditional number were his rookie season, I can't imagine what they'd look like with sacks taken into account.

You make a very good point. And upon further review it does seem clear that if Joey's YPA numbers were to be adjusted for all the sacks he doesn't take, they would probably be merely bad and not brutally terrible. Of course, if he gets to deflect the blame for his bad passing numbers to his receivers, then he must share some of the credit for his great sack numbers with the O-Line.Point taken, though.

 

[Ray]

Houston 2002 YPA - 4.97 ... YPA w/sacks* - 3.47Detroit 2002 YPA - 5.18 ... YPA w/sacks* - 4.72Buffalo 2003 YPA - 5.35 ... YPA w/sacks* - 4.16Houston 2003 YPA - 6.05 ... YPA w/sacks* - 5.20Detroit 2003 YPA - 4.97 ... YPA w/sacks* - 4.77WOW! Those numbers amaze me.Joey might be the best QB in the history of the NFL at avoiding the sack. Perhaps that's the reason Drinen's numbers turned out they way they did.* YPA w/sack calculated by deducting sack yardage from passing total and adding the number of sacks to the attempts

 

[JohnDoe]

Chris Miller in his 2nd yearTeam record: 5-11RB: John SettleTop Receivers: Stacey Bailey / Floyd Dixon

:rotflmao: I've watched football since 1979 and I have NO idea what team this even is.

I just had to look this team up. It is the 1988 Falcons. Funny thing is, they had a worse record the following year.

 

[Ray]

2003 YPA

01) Tenn 7.7302) Minn 7.6003) K.C. 7.43...30) Atl. 5.2331) Chi. 5.0832) Det. 4.97

2003 YPA w/sacks

01) Tenn 7.0702) Indy 6.9203) K.C. 6.9104) Minn 6.64...24) Det. 4.77...29) Atl. 4.4130) Bal. 4.3631) Chi. 4.1732) Buff 4.16

 

[Ray]

You make a very good point.

And upon further review it does seem clear that if Joey's YPA numbers were to be adjusted for all the sacks he doesn't take, they would probably be merely bad and not brutally terrible. Of course, if he gets to deflect the blame for his bad passing numbers to his receivers, then he must share some of the credit for his great sack numbers with the O-Line.

Point taken, though.

If his OL was actually any good, Matt Millen starts looking like a freaking draft genius!

 

[Chris Smith]

I think YPA to guage a young quarterback is no better a tool than Att/TD, completion percentage or any other stat. These are young players trying to play the toughest position to learn on the fly and if you are saddled with poor players around you, the quarterback would have to be Montana + Favre rolled into one to succeed. BTW: I love factoring sacks into the mix. That does account for a lot of incomplete passes that wouldn't otherwise be there....Which quarterback would you rather have?DILFER262 com / 497 att / 3207 PY / 6.45 YPA / 5 PTD / 24 Ic / 1 PTD every 99.4 att1 IC every 20.7 att.------------------------TESTAVERDE293 com / 631 att / 4321 PY / 6.85 YPA / 18 PTD / 41 Ic1 PTD every 35.1 att1 IC every 15.4 att-----------------------AIKMAN381 com / 692 att / 4328 PY / 6.25 YPA / 20 PTD / 36 Ic1 PTD every 34.6 att1 IC every 19.2 att---------------------BRADSHAW286 com / 591 att / 3669 PY / 6.21 YPA / 19 PTD / 46 Ic1 PTD every 31.1 att1 IC every 12.8 att---------------------Harrington524 com / 984 att / 5174 PY / 5.26 YPA / 29 PTD / 38 Ic / 1 PTD every 33.9 att1 IC every 25.9 att------------------------I just don't see his numbers being as poor as the other ones I listed here. I would rather have a quarterback throw a higher ratio of touchdown passes and a lower rate of interceptions. Not saying he has had a great start to his career but I think he has started as well as could be expected considering the situation. Anyone remember the Steve Walsh should start over Troy Aikman comments after his first season?

 

[blend]

Man, I had no idea this thread would grow these kind of legs.

1.  Everyone saying that Detroit was exceptionally brutal must have no memory.

Agreed.I certainly cannot dispute that the odds have been stacked against Harrington, but the Lions are just "regular bad," not historically bad.

Not historically bad??? Didn't the lions have the worst 2 year run of any team (sure Joey was only there for one of the years) in nfl history before this past season??.. but, if you factor in their last three seasons they had a total of 10 wins... I'd like to know where that ranks them on the historically bad scale for a three year period.

 

[Doug Drinen]

Not historically bad??? Didn't the lions have the worst 2 year run of any team (sure Joey was only there for one of the years) in nfl history before this past season??.. but, if you factor in their last three seasons they had a total of 10 wins... I'd like to know where that ranks them on the historically bad scale for a three year period.

And again, Drinen returns with some crow feathers hanging out of his mouth...Since the beginning of the 16-game season in 1978, only 7 teams have won fewer games over a 3-year period than the 01-03 Lions. Seven others are tied with the Lions at 10 wins. All but one of those 14 teams were from the "pre-parity" era, with only the 94-96 Jets representing the 90s. The rest of them were from the 70s and 80s.They have, in fact, been historically bad. I didn't realize quite how grim the situation was up there.Trivia: the worst 3-year stretch by any team was the 82-84 Oilers: 6.7 wins (strike-adjusted). The best 3-year stretch was by the 85-87 Bears: 40.7 wins (also strike-adjusted).

 

[Chris Smith]

Trivia: the worst 3-year stretch by any team was the 82-84 Oilers: 6.7 wins (strike-adjusted).

That is horrible (6.7 wins). It is amazing how things turn around in the NFL. It wasn't long after that the Oilers improved. 1987, wasn't it?

 

[Chase Stuart]

Since the beginning of the 16-game season in 1978, only 7 teams have won fewer games over a 3-year period than the 01-03 Lions. Seven others are tied with the Lions at 10 wins. All but one of those 14 teams were from the "pre-parity" era, with only the 94-96 Jets representing the 90s. The rest of them were from the 70s and 80s.

I guess it's sad that as soon as a three year period was mentioned, that Jets team came to mind. Of course, I wasn't aware that they were the worst team of the modern era (before Detroit tied them). However, are you aware that the stat is somewhat misleading?1994: 6-101995: 3-131996: 1-15That 1994 Jets team wasn't bad...they started off 4-3 and then 6-5. Had they won game 12, they would have been in first place in the AFC East. In that game, they were up around 18 (something like 24-6 or 7), until Marino pulled out the fake-spike game. That Jet team lost 33 of 37 games, a streak even the modern Lions couldn't match. Of course, this would be considered good news for Lions fans. That 1996 team was awful--and last year's Jets team obviously finished 6-10. Number of losing seasons in between 1996 and 2003? Zero.

 

[Hawk5506]

Why is there so much fuss about how good harringtons done or how others would do in his situation. his wr's are the worst in the nfl, bar none. and yes that means billy schroeder, who because he did good w/ favre people think hes respectable. a terrible wr doin good with favre?!?! my oh my weve never seen that one before. his overall offensive arsenal is pretty weak also. the only thing that has kept this offense from astronomicall levels of sheer awfulness is the decent o-line. face it, no other team had this bad of an offense. cards? ever hear of anquan boldin or marcel shipp? how bout the chargers, they wer pretty bad. nope they had a top 3 back and david boston. giants had quite a few weapons. raiders, while most of their offense can file for social security, still had moss and harrison compared to the lions. its unfair to judge harrington for his performance to date because NOBODY can do good in this situation under the circumstances, which are hes still just a second year qb w/ nothin to work with. Brett favre can yes, but if i remember correctly, he wasnt exactly settin the world on fire his first 2 years in the league either way you look at it, either first 2 years as a pro or first 2 years as a starter. likewise for manning, who only truly started doin good when he...GASP!...got talent around him in the form of Edge James and Marvin Harrison. so dont be quick to judge harrington just yet, as he is just now gettin the talent around him to make things happen.

 

[azgroover]

  likewise for manning, who only truly started doin good when he...GASP!...got talent around him in the form of Edge James and Marvin Harrison.

Wasn't Harrison already a member of the Colts before Manning showed-up?I also remember Indy had some schlep named Faulk before Edgerrin James was drafted. He was a decent serviceable back.Also, Favre had the highest completion percentage of his career (64.1%) in his first year as a starter; Harrington's was 50%. And just for fun, Manning's was 56%. Please, don't ever mention Joey Harrington in the same post as Brett Favre and Peyton Manning unless you're talking about who had the best piano recital.

 

[Hawk5506]

favre did have the highest completion percentage of his career, yes, but he also had some "schlep" named sterling sharpe, ever hear of him? and faulk did good and harrison was there, but that just proves my point. manning had talent around him, and put up that godly 56% completion percentage you mentioned. given marshal faulk and marvin harrison instead of james stewart and az hakim and im pretty sure harrington would approach the 56% completion.

 

[azgroover]

favre did have the highest completion percentage of his career, yes, but he also had some "schlep" named sterling sharpe, ever hear of him? and faulk did good and harrison was there, but that just proves my point. manning had talent around him, and put up that godly 56% completion percentage you mentioned. given marshal faulk and marvin harrison instead of james stewart and az hakim and im pretty sure harrington would approach the 56% completion.

I'll take the chicken, you take the egg. Right or wrong; I'm willing to rehash this conversation after week 17. Should be interesting.

 

[cracKer]

Through 8 games Harrington has certainly put this to rest.62+ completion %1563 yards (6.5 YPA)13 TDs5 INTAll of it without Charles Rogers, a good portion of it without Roy Williams

 

[Lee Dog]

I was just doing some random querying of my database and I accidentally stumbled across the following fact:

Since 1980, there have been 352 instances of a QB throwing 400 or more passes in a season© Of those 352, the very bottom two in terms of yards per attempt belong to Joey Harrington© That is astounding© To have the single worst season would be one thing© But he's got the two worst© His two seasons in the league rank #351 and #352 out of 352©

I know that people's opinions of yards/attempt as a measuring stick vary, and I know that Harrington is young and not exactly in a potent offense, but still, sheesh© Those 350 other QBs contain a lot of young guys in rough situations©

Just something interesting I noticed©

Doug, I assume Joey threw 400 or more passes in 2005 ... how did his YPA numbers from last season rank on the all-time list?

 

[Chase Stuart]

I was just doing some random querying of my database and I accidentally stumbled across the following fact:

Since 1980, there have been 352 instances of a QB throwing 400 or more passes in a season© Of those 352, the very bottom two in terms of yards per attempt belong to Joey Harrington© That is astounding© To have the single worst season would be one thing© But he's got the two worst© His two seasons in the league rank #351 and #352 out of 352©

I know that people's opinions of yards/attempt as a measuring stick vary, and I know that Harrington is young and not exactly in a potent offense, but still, sheesh© Those 350 other QBs contain a lot of young guys in rough situations©

Just something interesting I noticed©

Doug, I assume Joey threw 400 or more passes in 2005 ... how did his YPA numbers from last season rank on the all-time list?

1) I believe in retrospect, Jack Trudeau's 1986 season was slightly worse than Harrington's 2002 season. So Joey only has the first and third worst seasons. 2) Harrington's 6.23 Y/A ranks 336 out of 373 QBs since 1980 that have thrown 400 or more pass attempts.

 

[cstu]

Not many QB's have had the pleasure of working with great players such as James Stewart, Shawn Bryson, Az-Zahir Hakim, Bill Schroeder, and Scotty Anderson (the RB and WR leaders for the Lions in 2002 and 2003). Show me a QB that would have succeeded until those conditions his 1st two years in the league.

 

[Lee Dog]

Not many QB's have had the pleasure of working with great players such as James Stewart, Shawn Bryson, Az-Zahir Hakim, Bill Schroeder, and Scotty Anderson (the RB and WR leaders for the Lions in 2002 and 2003). Show me a QB that would have succeeded until those conditions his 1st two years in the league.

While I wouldn't use the word "succeeded," earlier in this thread, Doug pointed out many quarterbacks that were taken lower in the draft than Harrington, that had equally bad or worse talent than Harrington had surrounding them, and still had better YPA seasons than Harrington.Also, James Stewart does not deserve to have his name mentioned among the rest of the guys you list above. Stewart was a good NFL running back.

 

[cstu]

Not many QB's have had the pleasure of working with great players such as James Stewart, Shawn Bryson, Az-Zahir Hakim, Bill Schroeder, and Scotty Anderson (the RB and WR leaders for the Lions in 2002 and 2003).  Show me a QB that would have succeeded until those conditions his 1st two years in the league.

While I wouldn't use the word "succeeded," earlier in this thread, Doug pointed out many quarterbacks that were taken lower in the draft than Harrington, that had equally bad or worse talent than Harrington had surrounding them, and still had better YPA seasons than Harrington.Also, James Stewart does not deserve to have his name mentioned among the rest of the guys you list above. Stewart was a good NFL running back.

Since when did YPA become the most important statistic in judging QB success?Stewart was good, but Harrington only had him his rookie year and his WR's were Hakim, Schroeder, and Scotty Anderson.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

So how does that 6.2 rank?

 

[Lee Dog]

So how does that 6.2 rank?

According to Chase, it ranks #336 out of 373 QBs since 1980 that have thrown 400 or more passes.

 

[Lee Dog]

Since when did YPA become the most important statistic in judging QB success?

I don't know whether it is the most important statistic, but I think it definitely correlates to winning football.I believe since 1958, only the 1996 Patriots has played in an NFL Championship Game/Super Bowl allowing more yards per passing attempt than it gained. In addition, over the past two decades, the team that won that statistical battle won the game 80% of the time.The ultimate statistic for judging QB success is wins and losses, but I think it is pretty safe to say that without a decent YPA he's not going to win many games.