Jon Ogden vs Larry Allen (1 Viewer)

[AhrnCityPahnder]

Obviously they will both wind up in Canton, but let's say hypothetically that only one can make it first ballot because of all the other players in the class.

Which one of these two goes in first?

 

[Sabertooth]

Allen. He went to the Pro Bowl at LG, RT, LT, TE, DE, and FS.

 

[Chase Stuart]

What's interesting is how both of these guys played on bad offensive teams for the majority of their careers. And while it's just a fluke, Allen's Cowboys had their prime offensive seasons of the past 25 years in the immediate years before and after his arrival.

Allen played a few more games, Ogden played a more important position. Both won a ring. Slight edge to Ogden.

 

[Ack88]

Both are sure fire first ballot hof members. Allen was more versatile and IMO slightly more dominant. I saw every game as a Cowboy that Allen played and I can only remember one game (vs. New Orleaans) were he was outplayed by the player lining up across from him. (Joe Johnson dominated him that day)

 

[Chaos Commish]

Slight edge to Ogden.

As a life long Cowboy and Bruin fan, I am biased here, toward both of these guys. I hated to vote, but yeah, slight edge to Ogden.

Both are sure fire first ballot hof members.

They should be. Considering the size, strength, and athleticism of the modern pro football player, and the way these two dominated for a decade, I don't think it's a reach to claim these two are both the all-time best at their respective positions. It's debateable, of course, but not at all outrageous. Of course, Anthony Munoz is widely regarded as the best LT ever. He weighed about 280. He was spectacular, but Ogden, even Roaf, Pace and Jones are different animals from a different era. Munoz would have been great in this era, but better? I doubt it. I think Ogden was the best of them all.

I think the case for Allen as the best guard in NFL history is a little easier to make, though I know a long list of names can be argued. His combination of strength and speed (which was phenomenal early in his career) are unparalleled and at his best he was a great technician, no guard was ever better on the second level. Who do we compare him to? Today's best? Hutch and Faneca? John Hannah? I think Allen, from his prime in the 90s, mops the field with any of them.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Slight edge to Ogden.

As a life long Cowboy and Bruin fan, I am biased here, toward both of these guys. I hated to vote, but yeah, slight edge to Ogden.

Both are sure fire first ballot hof members.

They should be. Considering the size, strength, and athleticism of the modern pro football player, and the way these two dominated for a decade, I don't think it's a reach to claim these two are both the all-time best at their respective positions. It's debateable, of course, but not at all outrageous. Of course, Anthony Munoz is widely regarded as the best LT ever. He weighed about 280. He was spectacular, but Ogden, even Roaf, Pace and Jones are different animals from a different era. Munoz would have been great in this era, but better? I doubt it. I think Ogden was the best of them all.

I think the case for Allen as the best guard in NFL history is a little easier to make, though I know a long list of names can be argued. His combination of strength and speed (which was phenomenal early in his career) are unparalleled and at his best he was a great technician, no guard was ever better on the second level. Who do we compare him to? Today's best? Hutch and Faneca? John Hannah? I think Allen, from his prime in the 90s, mops the field with any of them.

Bruce Matthews, based on longevity alone, is probably in his own tier.McDaniel, Hannah, Shields and Upshaw are probably ahead of Allen, too.

Larry Little and Mike Munchak have claims to at least being Allen's equal, as they're HOFers, but Allen probably is ahead of them.

 

[Christo]

Slight edge to Ogden.

As a life long Cowboy and Bruin fan, I am biased here, toward both of these guys. I hated to vote, but yeah, slight edge to Ogden.

Both are sure fire first ballot hof members.

They should be. Considering the size, strength, and athleticism of the modern pro football player, and the way these two dominated for a decade, I don't think it's a reach to claim these two are both the all-time best at their respective positions. It's debateable, of course, but not at all outrageous. Of course, Anthony Munoz is widely regarded as the best LT ever. He weighed about 280. He was spectacular, but Ogden, even Roaf, Pace and Jones are different animals from a different era. Munoz would have been great in this era, but better? I doubt it. I think Ogden was the best of them all.

I think the case for Allen as the best guard in NFL history is a little easier to make, though I know a long list of names can be argued. His combination of strength and speed (which was phenomenal early in his career) are unparalleled and at his best he was a great technician, no guard was ever better on the second level. Who do we compare him to? Today's best? Hutch and Faneca? John Hannah? I think Allen, from his prime in the 90s, mops the field with any of them.

Bruce Matthews, based on longevity alone, is probably in his own tier.McDaniel, Hannah, Shields and Upshaw are probably ahead of Allen, too.

Larry Little and Mike Munchak have claims to at least being Allen's equal, as they're HOFers, but Allen probably is ahead of them.

None of those guys were as athletic as Allen.

 

[Kevin Ashcraft]

Slight edge to Ogden.

As a life long Cowboy and Bruin fan, I am biased here, toward both of these guys. I hated to vote, but yeah, slight edge to Ogden.

Both are sure fire first ballot hof members.

They should be. Considering the size, strength, and athleticism of the modern pro football player, and the way these two dominated for a decade, I don't think it's a reach to claim these two are both the all-time best at their respective positions. It's debateable, of course, but not at all outrageous. Of course, Anthony Munoz is widely regarded as the best LT ever. He weighed about 280. He was spectacular, but Ogden, even Roaf, Pace and Jones are different animals from a different era. Munoz would have been great in this era, but better? I doubt it. I think Ogden was the best of them all.

I think the case for Allen as the best guard in NFL history is a little easier to make, though I know a long list of names can be argued. His combination of strength and speed (which was phenomenal early in his career) are unparalleled and at his best he was a great technician, no guard was ever better on the second level. Who do we compare him to? Today's best? Hutch and Faneca? John Hannah? I think Allen, from his prime in the 90s, mops the field with any of them.

Bruce Matthews, based on longevity alone, is probably in his own tier.McDaniel, Hannah, Shields and Upshaw are probably ahead of Allen, too.

Larry Little and Mike Munchak have claims to at least being Allen's equal, as they're HOFers, but Allen probably is ahead of them.

None of those guys were as athletic as Allen.

Beg to differ on Shields....esp. in the Vermeil/Priest regime.However, based on his rings, Allen probably gets in before Shields....or at least has more votes when he is elected.

 

[Raider Nation]

The OP probably saw the ESPN poll about this yesterday.

The question, basically, was: now that the new rules permit only 5 players per year to enter the Hall of Fame, who gets left out five years from now if all of the following players no longer play: Favre, Allen, Ogden, Sapp, Seau, Strahan. The better question for this thread would probably be Sapp vs. Strahan, as I see no scenario in which Allen and Ogden don't get in on the first try.

 

[Raider Nation]

Allen played a few more games, Ogden played a more important position. Both won a ring. Slight edge to Ogden.

L.A. made the Pro Bowl as a left tackle at least once, no?

 

[Chase Stuart]

The OP probably saw the ESPN poll about this yesterday.

The question, basically, was: now that the new rules permit only 5 players per year to enter the Hall of Fame, who gets left out five years from now if all of the following players no longer play: Favre, Allen, Ogden, Sapp, Seau, Strahan. The better question for this thread would probably be Sapp vs. Strahan, as I see no scenario in which Allen and Ogden don't get in on the first try.

Sapp and Strahan get in before either Allen/Ogden, and forget Seau and obviously Favre. Strahan's absolutely on another level from Allen/Ogden, and Sapp probably is, too. These are small differences, of course, but I think they're legitimate.

Allen played a few more games, Ogden played a more important position. Both won a ring. Slight edge to Ogden.

L.A. made the Pro Bowl as a left tackle at least once, no?

Yes, but he played most of his career at guard.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Slight edge to Ogden.

As a life long Cowboy and Bruin fan, I am biased here, toward both of these guys. I hated to vote, but yeah, slight edge to Ogden.

Both are sure fire first ballot hof members.

They should be. Considering the size, strength, and athleticism of the modern pro football player, and the way these two dominated for a decade, I don't think it's a reach to claim these two are both the all-time best at their respective positions. It's debateable, of course, but not at all outrageous. Of course, Anthony Munoz is widely regarded as the best LT ever. He weighed about 280. He was spectacular, but Ogden, even Roaf, Pace and Jones are different animals from a different era. Munoz would have been great in this era, but better? I doubt it. I think Ogden was the best of them all.

I think the case for Allen as the best guard in NFL history is a little easier to make, though I know a long list of names can be argued. His combination of strength and speed (which was phenomenal early in his career) are unparalleled and at his best he was a great technician, no guard was ever better on the second level. Who do we compare him to? Today's best? Hutch and Faneca? John Hannah? I think Allen, from his prime in the 90s, mops the field with any of them.

Bruce Matthews, based on longevity alone, is probably in his own tier.McDaniel, Hannah, Shields and Upshaw are probably ahead of Allen, too.

Larry Little and Mike Munchak have claims to at least being Allen's equal, as they're HOFers, but Allen probably is ahead of them.

None of those guys were as athletic as Allen.

Sure, but most of those guys were from a much different era.

 

[Chase Stuart]

However, based on his rings, Allen probably gets in before Shields....or at least has more votes when he is elected.

I'm not picking on you, because I've seen this a few times today.Allen has one ring. People seem to equate him with the '92 and '93 Cowboys, but he wasn't on those teams.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Slight edge to Ogden.

As a life long Cowboy and Bruin fan, I am biased here, toward both of these guys. I hated to vote, but yeah, slight edge to Ogden.

Both are sure fire first ballot hof members.

They should be. Considering the size, strength, and athleticism of the modern pro football player, and the way these two dominated for a decade, I don't think it's a reach to claim these two are both the all-time best at their respective positions. It's debateable, of course, but not at all outrageous. Of course, Anthony Munoz is widely regarded as the best LT ever. He weighed about 280. He was spectacular, but Ogden, even Roaf, Pace and Jones are different animals from a different era. Munoz would have been great in this era, but better? I doubt it. I think Ogden was the best of them all.

I think the case for Allen as the best guard in NFL history is a little easier to make, though I know a long list of names can be argued. His combination of strength and speed (which was phenomenal early in his career) are unparalleled and at his best he was a great technician, no guard was ever better on the second level. Who do we compare him to? Today's best? Hutch and Faneca? John Hannah? I think Allen, from his prime in the 90s, mops the field with any of them.

Bruce Matthews, based on longevity alone, is probably in his own tier.McDaniel, Hannah, Shields and Upshaw are probably ahead of Allen, too.

Larry Little and Mike Munchak have claims to at least being Allen's equal, as they're HOFers, but Allen probably is ahead of them.

None of those guys were as athletic as Allen.

Beg to differ on Shields....esp. in the Vermeil/Priest regime.However, based on his rings, Allen probably gets in before Shields....or at least has more votes when he is elected.

I would agree Shields is the closest to Allen in ability. He wasn't quite as strong, quick or fleet pulling into the second level, but he was closest. What monsters both were at their best. No one else named looked and played quite like these two. Bruce Matthews was great, Chase. Longevity should be considered and he is the all-time OL ironman, but that alone doesn't make him the better player. It would be an interesting debate, I'd probably be a fool to engage. George Blanda would work against longevity's argument. Matthews was also a little undersized and limited athletically compared to some of the beasts we're discussing. I'm comfortable claiming Allen was a better guard than Matthews on a game by game basis, which is how I am comfortable judging their respective ability. That one lasted considerably longer certainly adds to his career value and the list of accolades is formidable, but those things do not make him the better talent. If I was arguing on behalf of a shortened career like Boselli's, then the argument is weak, but Allen and Shields had long dominant careers.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Bruce Matthews was great, Chase. Longevity should be considered and he is the all-time OL ironman, but that alone doesn't make him the better player. It would be an interesting debate, I'd probably be a fool to engage. George Blanda would work against longevity's argument. Matthews was also a little undersized and limited athletically compared to some of the beasts we're discussing. I'm comfortable claiming Allen was a better guard than Matthews on a game by game basis, which is how I am comfortable judging their respective ability. That one lasted considerably longer certainly adds to his career value and the list of accolades is formidable, but those things do not make him the better talent. If I was arguing on behalf of a shortened career like Boselli's, then the argument is weak, but Allen and Shields had long dominant careers.

Matthews was an elite player that had 50% more starts than Allen.Allen may have been the better player in his very best season or two, but I don't think they even come very close in career value.

 

[knowledge dropper]

Allen benefits from the Madden man-love hype machine. He was a great player, but Ogden was better. Ogden just did not benefit from 7 national TV games a season for most of his prime.

 

[Raider Nation]

The OP probably saw the ESPN poll about this yesterday.

The question, basically, was: now that the new rules permit only 5 players per year to enter the Hall of Fame, who gets left out five years from now if all of the following players no longer play: Favre, Allen, Ogden, Sapp, Seau, Strahan. The better question for this thread would probably be Sapp vs. Strahan, as I see no scenario in which Allen and Ogden don't get in on the first try.

Sapp and Strahan get in before either Allen/Ogden, and forget Seau and obviously Favre. Strahan's absolutely on another level from Allen/Ogden, and Sapp probably is, too. These are small differences, of course, but I think they're legitimate.

America disagrees with you. Not that it means anything one way or another.I can't find the poll anymore, but Sapp was the player most would leave out, followed by Strahan.

 

[Chase Stuart]

The OP probably saw the ESPN poll about this yesterday.

The question, basically, was: now that the new rules permit only 5 players per year to enter the Hall of Fame, who gets left out five years from now if all of the following players no longer play: Favre, Allen, Ogden, Sapp, Seau, Strahan. The better question for this thread would probably be Sapp vs. Strahan, as I see no scenario in which Allen and Ogden don't get in on the first try.

Sapp and Strahan get in before either Allen/Ogden, and forget Seau and obviously Favre. Strahan's absolutely on another level from Allen/Ogden, and Sapp probably is, too. These are small differences, of course, but I think they're legitimate.

America disagrees with you. Not that it means anything one way or another.I can't find the poll anymore, but Sapp was the player most would leave out, followed by Strahan.

Word. It's not terribly surprising. Sapp is hard to root for, and Allen and Ogden's career declines were less publicized.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Allen may have been the better player in his very best season or two, but I don't think they even come very close in career value.

I think Allen was a significantly better player for the duration of his entire career, except the last two seasons, than Matthews in any 10 year period of his long career. Matthews lasted many more years than Allen, and I agree that adds to career value, but I'm more interested in who was the better player. I'm confident that had Matthews and Allen played on the same team at any similar point in their careers, and only one could start, Bruce Matthews would have backed up Larry Allen. There's no way to prove such a statement, but it seems obvious from years of watching both. The better player starts because he is more valuable. Most talented? Allen.Most durable? Matthews.Most valuable? As a Cowboy fan if you told me I could swap Allen's play for a decade for Matthews best 15 years, I'd say no thanks. Give me Larry Allen.

 

[Englishteacher]

Tony Mandarich was better than both.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

The OP probably saw the ESPN poll about this yesterday.

Nope. just reading some disagreement in the "Ogden retires" thread got me wondering.

 

[Sabertooth]

Allen played a few more games, Ogden played a more important position. Both won a ring. Slight edge to Ogden.

L.A. made the Pro Bowl as a left tackle at least once, no?

See my post above. The biggest memory I have of Ogden, and I realize he had a great career, is of Dwight Freeney just abusing him. I thought he was going to retire on the spot.

 

[SuperJohn96]

The OP probably saw the ESPN poll about this yesterday.The question, basically, was: now that the new rules permit only 5 players per year to enter the Hall of Fame, who gets left out five years from now if all of the following players no longer play: Favre, Allen, Ogden, Sapp, Seau, Strahan. The better question for this thread would probably be Sapp vs. Strahan, as I see no scenario in which Allen and Ogden don't get in on the first try.

Sapp and Strahan get in before either Allen/Ogden, and forget Seau and obviously Favre. Strahan's absolutely on another level from Allen/Ogden, and Sapp probably is, too. These are small differences, of course, but I think they're legitimate.

So if we assume:1. Favre2. Seau3. Strahan4. Sapp5. ?How does the voting work? Is it five players MAXIMUM per year, or five players every year?If it is maximum, then that means a player would likely need X number of votes to make the HOF.If my assumptions are correct on the voting requirments, is it possible enough voters split on Allen/Ogden and neither of them get the number of votes needed to become the fifth player in?Just spit-balling here because I don't know.

 

[Steady Mooobin]

I think Allen is penalized for playing guard in this thread. He was moved to guard because of his athletic ability. You don't see LT's pulling on run plays, guards pull.

I voted Allen. He was one of the most intimidating, meanest, maulers in the league. Ogden was awesome, so I take nothing away from him.

 

[Christo]

Larry Allen running down Robert Massey on MNF. Greatest play by an OL ever.

 

[Tau837]

The OP probably saw the ESPN poll about this yesterday.The question, basically, was: now that the new rules permit only 5 players per year to enter the Hall of Fame, who gets left out five years from now if all of the following players no longer play: Favre, Allen, Ogden, Sapp, Seau, Strahan. The better question for this thread would probably be Sapp vs. Strahan, as I see no scenario in which Allen and Ogden don't get in on the first try.

Sapp and Strahan get in before either Allen/Ogden, and forget Seau and obviously Favre. Strahan's absolutely on another level from Allen/Ogden, and Sapp probably is, too. These are small differences, of course, but I think they're legitimate.

So if we assume:1. Favre2. Seau3. Strahan4. Sapp5. ?How does the voting work? Is it five players MAXIMUM per year, or five players every year?If it is maximum, then that means a player would likely need X number of votes to make the HOF.If my assumptions are correct on the voting requirments, is it possible enough voters split on Allen/Ogden and neither of them get the number of votes needed to become the fifth player in?Just spit-balling here because I don't know.

It is five players maximum per year. And most are assuming in this thread that in the year in question, it will be five first year players, which isn't a given... not sure if anyone will be eligible and comparably worthy, but it's possible.As an aside, Sapp should be higher than Strahan on the list IMO.

 

[Tau837]

I think Allen is penalized for playing guard in this thread. He was moved to guard because of his athletic ability. You don't see LT's pulling on run plays, guards pull.I voted Allen. He was one of the most intimidating, meanest, maulers in the league. Ogden was awesome, so I take nothing away from him.

 

[Andy Herron]

The OP probably saw the ESPN poll about this yesterday.

Nope. just reading some disagreement in the "Ogden retires" thread got me wondering.

Well, it's 60-40 after 62 votes.Convinced yet? ; )

 

[Tau837]

Considering the size, strength, and athleticism of the modern pro football player, and the way these two dominated for a decade, I don't think it's a reach to claim these two are both the all-time best at their respective positions. It's debateable, of course, but not at all outrageous. Of course, Anthony Munoz is widely regarded as the best LT ever. He weighed about 280. He was spectacular, but Ogden, even Roaf, Pace and Jones are different animals from a different era. Munoz would have been great in this era, but better? I doubt it. I think Ogden was the best of them all. I think the case for Allen as the best guard in NFL history is a little easier to make, though I know a long list of names can be argued. His combination of strength and speed (which was phenomenal early in his career) are unparalleled and at his best he was a great technician, no guard was ever better on the second level. Who do we compare him to? Today's best? Hutch and Faneca? John Hannah? I think Allen, from his prime in the 90s, mops the field with any of them.

The problem with this argument you are making is you are comparing Munoz, Hannah, et al as they were in their eras to today's players without giving the older players any notional benefit from today's training methods, nutrition, medical improvements, etc. It's apples and oranges. If Munoz, Hannah, et al entered the league when Ogden and Allen did, they would almost certainly have been bigger and more athletic. Munoz was 1st team All Pro 9 times, and Hannah made it 7 times. That is one way to illustrate that they stood out from their peers more than Ogden and Allen did.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

The OP probably saw the ESPN poll about this yesterday.

Nope. just reading some disagreement in the "Ogden retires" thread got me wondering.

Well, it's 60-40 after 62 votes.Convinced yet? ; )

Nope.

 

[T Bell]

Bruce Matthews was great, Chase. Longevity should be considered and he is the all-time OL ironman, but that alone doesn't make him the better player. It would be an interesting debate, I'd probably be a fool to engage. George Blanda would work against longevity's argument. Matthews was also a little undersized and limited athletically compared to some of the beasts we're discussing. I'm comfortable claiming Allen was a better guard than Matthews on a game by game basis, which is how I am comfortable judging their respective ability. That one lasted considerably longer certainly adds to his career value and the list of accolades is formidable, but those things do not make him the better talent. If I was arguing on behalf of a shortened career like Boselli's, then the argument is weak, but Allen and Shields had long dominant careers.

Matthews was an elite player that had 50% more starts than Allen.Allen may have been the better player in his very best season or two, but I don't think they even come very close in career value.

Matthews was an accumulator.

 

[T Bell]

The OP probably saw the ESPN poll about this yesterday.The question, basically, was: now that the new rules permit only 5 players per year to enter the Hall of Fame, who gets left out five years from now if all of the following players no longer play: Favre, Allen, Ogden, Sapp, Seau, Strahan. The better question for this thread would probably be Sapp vs. Strahan, as I see no scenario in which Allen and Ogden don't get in on the first try.

Sapp and Strahan get in before either Allen/Ogden, and forget Seau and obviously Favre. Strahan's absolutely on another level from Allen/Ogden, and Sapp probably is, too. These are small differences, of course, but I think they're legitimate.

I would put both Ogden and Allen (in that order) in the Hall before Sapp or Strahan. Those guys were very good and are deserving of induction too, but Ogden and Allen where on a whole other level of dominance IMHO.

 

[T Bell]

I think Allen is penalized for playing guard in this thread. He was moved to guard because of his athletic ability. You don't see LT's pulling on run plays, guards pull.I voted Allen. He was one of the most intimidating, meanest, maulers in the league. Ogden was awesome, so I take nothing away from him.

Counter trey down? Tackles pull too, at least in some schemes.

 

[Chase Stuart]

The OP probably saw the ESPN poll about this yesterday.The question, basically, was: now that the new rules permit only 5 players per year to enter the Hall of Fame, who gets left out five years from now if all of the following players no longer play: Favre, Allen, Ogden, Sapp, Seau, Strahan. The better question for this thread would probably be Sapp vs. Strahan, as I see no scenario in which Allen and Ogden don't get in on the first try.

Sapp and Strahan get in before either Allen/Ogden, and forget Seau and obviously Favre. Strahan's absolutely on another level from Allen/Ogden, and Sapp probably is, too. These are small differences, of course, but I think they're legitimate.

I would put both Ogden and Allen (in that order) in the Hall before Sapp or Strahan. Those guys were very good and are deserving of induction too, but Ogden and Allen where on a whole other level of dominance IMHO.

True. I can't imagine how ineffective the Ravens offense would have been without Ogden.Am I being sarcastic? Sure. Insincere? Quite a bit. Does a great tackle make an offense? No.But there's something to be said for Ogden playing on a team with 7 different QBs the last decade, Ogden making the Pro Bowl 10 out of 10 years, and the Ravens having a good offense 0 times out of 10. Those seven QBs are an NFL MVP, three Pro Bowl QBs, two first round picks, and the highest drafted QB in his class. And they've played with some pretty good RBs.Sure, I'm overstating my case a bit. But Ogden is supposed to be an incredible pass blocker, and his teams have had frighteningly bad pass offenses. That's a knock against him, IMO.

 

[T Bell]

The OP probably saw the ESPN poll about this yesterday.The question, basically, was: now that the new rules permit only 5 players per year to enter the Hall of Fame, who gets left out five years from now if all of the following players no longer play: Favre, Allen, Ogden, Sapp, Seau, Strahan. The better question for this thread would probably be Sapp vs. Strahan, as I see no scenario in which Allen and Ogden don't get in on the first try.

Sapp and Strahan get in before either Allen/Ogden, and forget Seau and obviously Favre. Strahan's absolutely on another level from Allen/Ogden, and Sapp probably is, too. These are small differences, of course, but I think they're legitimate.

I would put both Ogden and Allen (in that order) in the Hall before Sapp or Strahan. Those guys were very good and are deserving of induction too, but Ogden and Allen where on a whole other level of dominance IMHO.

True. I can't imagine how ineffective the Ravens offense would have been without Ogden.Am I being sarcastic? Sure. Insincere? Quite a bit. Does a great tackle make an offense? No.But there's something to be said for Ogden playing on a team with 7 different QBs the last decade, Ogden making the Pro Bowl 10 out of 10 years, and the Ravens having a good offense 0 times out of 10. Those seven QBs are an NFL MVP, three Pro Bowl QBs, two first round picks, and the highest drafted QB in his class. And they've played with some pretty good RBs.Sure, I'm overstating my case a bit. But Ogden is supposed to be an incredible pass blocker, and his teams have had frighteningly bad pass offenses. That's a knock against him, IMO.

Pretty simplistic analysis, don't you think? Was Ogden the reason for the poor passing? Does it not inure to Ogden's credit that he was often pass blocking on the edge of the line in unfavorable passing situations (lots of and-long situations) because of how poor the offenses were?Let's try the opposite scenario. In 2004 we had one of the great passing seasons of all times by Peyton Manning. Ditto Tom Brady last year. Please link to all the plaudits for that for the two LT's. I seem to have missed where they got the credit.

 

[Chase Stuart]

In 2004 we had one of the great passing seasons of all times by Peyton Manning. Ditto Tom Brady last year. Please link to all the plaudits for that for the two LT's. I seem to have missed where they got the credit.

Did you watch the Pro Bowl game those years?

 

[T Bell]

In 2004 we had one of the great passing seasons of all times by Peyton Manning. Ditto Tom Brady last year. Please link to all the plaudits for that for the two LT's. I seem to have missed where they got the credit.

Did you watch the Pro Bowl game those years?

You mean the one where they effusively praise every player there because the game itself isn't much of a story? No. I don't much pay attention to the popularity contest that is the Pro Bowl.

 

[Chase Stuart]

In 2004 we had one of the great passing seasons of all times by Peyton Manning. Ditto Tom Brady last year. Please link to all the plaudits for that for the two LT's. I seem to have missed where they got the credit.

Did you watch the Pro Bowl game those years?

You mean the one where they effusively praise every player there because the game itself isn't much of a story? No. I don't much pay attention to the popularity contest that is the Pro Bowl.

Both Tarik Glenn and Matt Light made the Pro Bowl those years. I'd say that's giving them credit for the great passing seasons by their QBs.If we're going to say that the offensive line is important -- and I doubt you're going to find anyone that thinks the OL isn't an extremely important part of a team's offense -- we should be at least a little hesitant to say an offensive lineman is one of the greatest OL ever when his team's offense stinks every year. No one would say some QB is one of the best ever if his team's offense is below average every year. I'm not saying Ogden isn't great, or isn't a HOFer, but merely that some level of skepticism about his rank in the pantheon of great OL is necessary when analyzing him. A team's offensive line is tied very strongly to a team's offensive success. If a team's offense stinks, that's a pretty good sign that the OL isn't very good. It's possible that a bad OL could consist of one amazing T and four really bad lineman, of course, but I'm not sure if that's a defensible argument in Ogden's case.

 

[chris1969]

Slight edge to Ogden.

As a life long Cowboy and Bruin fan, I am biased here, toward both of these guys. I hated to vote, but yeah, slight edge to Ogden.

Both are sure fire first ballot hof members.

They should be. Considering the size, strength, and athleticism of the modern pro football player, and the way these two dominated for a decade, I don't think it's a reach to claim these two are both the all-time best at their respective positions. It's debateable, of course, but not at all outrageous. Of course, Anthony Munoz is widely regarded as the best LT ever. He weighed about 280. He was spectacular, but Ogden, even Roaf, Pace and Jones are different animals from a different era. Munoz would have been great in this era, but better? I doubt it. I think Ogden was the best of them all.

I think the case for Allen as the best guard in NFL history is a little easier to make, though I know a long list of names can be argued. His combination of strength and speed (which was phenomenal early in his career) are unparalleled and at his best he was a great technician, no guard was ever better on the second level. Who do we compare him to? Today's best? Hutch and Faneca? John Hannah? I think Allen, from his prime in the 90s, mops the field with any of them.

Uhm I hope your just young, but Hannah is the Greatest Guard ever. Allen would not come close in a comparison with Hannah

 

[Christo]

Slight edge to Ogden.

As a life long Cowboy and Bruin fan, I am biased here, toward both of these guys. I hated to vote, but yeah, slight edge to Ogden.

Both are sure fire first ballot hof members.

They should be. Considering the size, strength, and athleticism of the modern pro football player, and the way these two dominated for a decade, I don't think it's a reach to claim these two are both the all-time best at their respective positions. It's debateable, of course, but not at all outrageous. Of course, Anthony Munoz is widely regarded as the best LT ever. He weighed about 280. He was spectacular, but Ogden, even Roaf, Pace and Jones are different animals from a different era. Munoz would have been great in this era, but better? I doubt it. I think Ogden was the best of them all.

I think the case for Allen as the best guard in NFL history is a little easier to make, though I know a long list of names can be argued. His combination of strength and speed (which was phenomenal early in his career) are unparalleled and at his best he was a great technician, no guard was ever better on the second level. Who do we compare him to? Today's best? Hutch and Faneca? John Hannah? I think Allen, from his prime in the 90s, mops the field with any of them.

Uhm I hope your just young, but Hannah is the Greatest Guard ever. Allen would not come close in a comparison with Hannah

 

[SSOG]

The OP probably saw the ESPN poll about this yesterday.The question, basically, was: now that the new rules permit only 5 players per year to enter the Hall of Fame, who gets left out five years from now if all of the following players no longer play: Favre, Allen, Ogden, Sapp, Seau, Strahan. The better question for this thread would probably be Sapp vs. Strahan, as I see no scenario in which Allen and Ogden don't get in on the first try.

Sapp and Strahan get in before either Allen/Ogden, and forget Seau and obviously Favre. Strahan's absolutely on another level from Allen/Ogden, and Sapp probably is, too. These are small differences, of course, but I think they're legitimate.

I would put both Ogden and Allen (in that order) in the Hall before Sapp or Strahan. Those guys were very good and are deserving of induction too, but Ogden and Allen where on a whole other level of dominance IMHO.

Warren Sapp changed the way a position was played. He was a defensive tackle who rushed the passer better than defensive ends. Michael Strahan was probably the best run-stuffing DE in the entire NFL during his career... and he just so happened to set the single-season sack record at the same time. Ogden was merely 1/3rd of the "Who's the best LT in the game?" debate (Ogden, Pace, or Jones)... and I don't think he was even the best member of the trio. He didn't stand above his peers like Sapp and Strahan did. I'm not saying he's not deserving of first-ballot HoF status, I'm merely pointing out that a lot of people underrate just how dominant Sapp and Strahan really were in their primes.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

None of those guys were as athletic as Allen.

Robert Massey will vouch for that.Don't count the fact that Larry Allen spent most of his years at guard against him. While he was the best OG in the league, Joel Buchsbaum often pointed out that he'd be probably the best LT in the league if that's where they'd put him. (I also remember Buchsbaum arguing that Larry Allen -- not Emmit Smith -- was the best player on the Cowboys.)

 

[Yenrub]

Just heard on NFL Total Access that Ogden only had 29 penalties called against him for his entire career

 

[chris1969]

Slight edge to Ogden.

As a life long Cowboy and Bruin fan, I am biased here, toward both of these guys. I hated to vote, but yeah, slight edge to Ogden.

Both are sure fire first ballot hof members.

They should be. Considering the size, strength, and athleticism of the modern pro football player, and the way these two dominated for a decade, I don't think it's a reach to claim these two are both the all-time best at their respective positions. It's debateable, of course, but not at all outrageous. Of course, Anthony Munoz is widely regarded as the best LT ever. He weighed about 280. He was spectacular, but Ogden, even Roaf, Pace and Jones are different animals from a different era. Munoz would have been great in this era, but better? I doubt it. I think Ogden was the best of them all.

I think the case for Allen as the best guard in NFL history is a little easier to make, though I know a long list of names can be argued. His combination of strength and speed (which was phenomenal early in his career) are unparalleled and at his best he was a great technician, no guard was ever better on the second level. Who do we compare him to? Today's best? Hutch and Faneca? John Hannah? I think Allen, from his prime in the 90s, mops the field with any of them.

Uhm I hope your just young, but Hannah is the Greatest Guard ever. Allen would not come close in a comparison with Hannah

LOL, that is funny I didn't notice who I replied to the first time. He probably is young compared to me though.

 

[Steady Mooobin]

Slight edge to Ogden.

As a life long Cowboy and Bruin fan, I am biased here, toward both of these guys. I hated to vote, but yeah, slight edge to Ogden.

Both are sure fire first ballot hof members.

They should be. Considering the size, strength, and athleticism of the modern pro football player, and the way these two dominated for a decade, I don't think it's a reach to claim these two are both the all-time best at their respective positions. It's debateable, of course, but not at all outrageous. Of course, Anthony Munoz is widely regarded as the best LT ever. He weighed about 280. He was spectacular, but Ogden, even Roaf, Pace and Jones are different animals from a different era. Munoz would have been great in this era, but better? I doubt it. I think Ogden was the best of them all.

I think the case for Allen as the best guard in NFL history is a little easier to make, though I know a long list of names can be argued. His combination of strength and speed (which was phenomenal early in his career) are unparalleled and at his best he was a great technician, no guard was ever better on the second level. Who do we compare him to? Today's best? Hutch and Faneca? John Hannah? I think Allen, from his prime in the 90s, mops the field with any of them.

Uhm I hope your just young, but Hannah is the Greatest Guard ever. Allen would not come close in a comparison with Hannah

LOL, that is funny I didn't notice who I replied to the first time. He probably is young compared to me though.

Acting like you're an old man doesn't make your statement true. But it does make it funny.

 

[chris1969]

Slight edge to Ogden.

As a life long Cowboy and Bruin fan, I am biased here, toward both of these guys. I hated to vote, but yeah, slight edge to Ogden.

Both are sure fire first ballot hof members.

They should be. Considering the size, strength, and athleticism of the modern pro football player, and the way these two dominated for a decade, I don't think it's a reach to claim these two are both the all-time best at their respective positions. It's debateable, of course, but not at all outrageous. Of course, Anthony Munoz is widely regarded as the best LT ever. He weighed about 280. He was spectacular, but Ogden, even Roaf, Pace and Jones are different animals from a different era. Munoz would have been great in this era, but better? I doubt it. I think Ogden was the best of them all.

I think the case for Allen as the best guard in NFL history is a little easier to make, though I know a long list of names can be argued. His combination of strength and speed (which was phenomenal early in his career) are unparalleled and at his best he was a great technician, no guard was ever better on the second level. Who do we compare him to? Today's best? Hutch and Faneca? John Hannah? I think Allen, from his prime in the 90s, mops the field with any of them.

Uhm I hope your just young, but Hannah is the Greatest Guard ever. Allen would not come close in a comparison with Hannah

LOL, that is funny I didn't notice who I replied to the first time. He probably is young compared to me though.

Acting like you're an old man doesn't make your statement true. But it does make it funny.

What wouldn't be true about it? Is he not the guy that was the best lineman and captain on probably the best line of all time? Is he not the guy that in 1981 Sports Illustrated stated was the best lineman to ever play the game? (Above both Munoz and Webster) Is he not the guy that made All Pro 10 times? Not the guy that made 2 All decade teams? 2, freakin 2 all decade teams! Did I mention it was 2 all decade teams?Not the #1 guard on the 75th anniversary team? Not the guy ranked 20th on the Sporting News 100 greatest players to ever play the game list? Not the guy that could run circles around a Larry Allen that I keep hearing is so athletic? Don't get me wrong, I learn a lot about fantasy football on this site, but most guys know crap about offensive lineman and the closest thing I've seen to Hannah is Gene Hickerson and Allen doesn't come close to Hickerson.When you talk about lineman, it is all about the skill-set and Allen has about half of Hannah's. I doubt Allen makes the top 5 guard list. You can crown him if you want to, but he is who we thought he was.

 

[crystal]

Joel Buchsbaum in May 2000:

Q: How far ahead of everyone else at his position is Allen right now?

Buchsbaum: He’s ahead of everyone at offensive guard like Jerry Rice in his prime was ahead of everyone at wide receiver. (Allen) just has rare gifts combined with rare intensity.

Q: Where does Allen fit in historically at his position?

Buchsbaum: He has to play more years, but he’s ahead of John Hannah as a player at this point.

Q: So if Allen continues playing at this level, he could be the best offensive guard ever?

Buchsbaum: Yes.

Joel Buchsbaum in July 2001:

At offensive guard, Larry Allen of the Cowboys is by far and away the best player in the league. Allen also could challenge for the right to be named best tackle in the league, but the Cowboys have decided that guard is his best position, and he’s the best fit for them there.

As a guard, Allen may be as good if not better than former Patriot John Hannah. Like Hannah, he’s got awesome strength, can bend his knees, play with leverage, roll his hips and is a devastating run blocker who literally knocks people off the line of scrimmage and snaps their necks. As a pass blocker, he is bigger and more athletic moving laterally than Hannah was and probably has quicker feet. Allen has been extremely well-coached since college. As a small-school player, he did not receive as much attention to detail as some of the major-school players, but the Cowboys have done an unbelievable job of coaching and developing him. His only weakness now is his tendency to get heavy. However, when his weight is under control and he’s healthy, he may be one of the greatest guards of all time. If you want to compare him to an old-timer, although because of the eras the sizes are completely different, Allen is very similar to Colts Hall of Famer Jim Parker, who, like Allen, played both guard and tackle in the NFL.

 

[chris1969]

Joel Buchsbaum in May 2000:

Q: How far ahead of everyone else at his position is Allen right now?

Buchsbaum: He’s ahead of everyone at offensive guard like Jerry Rice in his prime was ahead of everyone at wide receiver. (Allen) just has rare gifts combined with rare intensity.

Q: Where does Allen fit in historically at his position?

Buchsbaum: He has to play more years, but he’s ahead of John Hannah as a player at this point.

Q: So if Allen continues playing at this level, he could be the best offensive guard ever?

Buchsbaum: Yes.

Joel Buchsbaum in July 2001:

At offensive guard, Larry Allen of the Cowboys is by far and away the best player in the league. Allen also could challenge for the right to be named best tackle in the league, but the Cowboys have decided that guard is his best position, and he’s the best fit for them there.

As a guard, Allen may be as good if not better than former Patriot John Hannah. Like Hannah, he’s got awesome strength, can bend his knees, play with leverage, roll his hips and is a devastating run blocker who literally knocks people off the line of scrimmage and snaps their necks. As a pass blocker, he is bigger and more athletic moving laterally than Hannah was and probably has quicker feet. Allen has been extremely well-coached since college. As a small-school player, he did not receive as much attention to detail as some of the major-school players, but the Cowboys have done an unbelievable job of coaching and developing him. His only weakness now is his tendency to get heavy. However, when his weight is under control and he’s healthy, he may be one of the greatest guards of all time. If you want to compare him to an old-timer, although because of the eras the sizes are completely different, Allen is very similar to Colts Hall of Famer Jim Parker, who, like Allen, played both guard and tackle in the NFL.

Thanks crystal, but the only thing Buchsbaum got right in that article is that Allen is heavier. Allen is good but there is no comparison to Hannah. Buchsbaum is a dallas homer in my humble opinion.

 

[Christo]

Joel Buchsbaum in May 2000:

Q: How far ahead of everyone else at his position is Allen right now?

Buchsbaum: He’s ahead of everyone at offensive guard like Jerry Rice in his prime was ahead of everyone at wide receiver. (Allen) just has rare gifts combined with rare intensity.

Q: Where does Allen fit in historically at his position?

Buchsbaum: He has to play more years, but he’s ahead of John Hannah as a player at this point.

Q: So if Allen continues playing at this level, he could be the best offensive guard ever?

Buchsbaum: Yes.

Joel Buchsbaum in July 2001:

At offensive guard, Larry Allen of the Cowboys is by far and away the best player in the league. Allen also could challenge for the right to be named best tackle in the league, but the Cowboys have decided that guard is his best position, and he’s the best fit for them there.

As a guard, Allen may be as good if not better than former Patriot John Hannah. Like Hannah, he’s got awesome strength, can bend his knees, play with leverage, roll his hips and is a devastating run blocker who literally knocks people off the line of scrimmage and snaps their necks. As a pass blocker, he is bigger and more athletic moving laterally than Hannah was and probably has quicker feet. Allen has been extremely well-coached since college. As a small-school player, he did not receive as much attention to detail as some of the major-school players, but the Cowboys have done an unbelievable job of coaching and developing him. His only weakness now is his tendency to get heavy. However, when his weight is under control and he’s healthy, he may be one of the greatest guards of all time. If you want to compare him to an old-timer, although because of the eras the sizes are completely different, Allen is very similar to Colts Hall of Famer Jim Parker, who, like Allen, played both guard and tackle in the NFL.

Thanks crystal, but the only thing Buchsbaum got right in that article is that Allen is heavier. Allen is good but there is no comparison to Hannah. Buchsbaum is a dallas homer in my humble opinion.

As someone who saw them both play, IMHO you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[money.never.sleeps]

Allen is more dominant player at multiple positions and in my opinion played on more dominant team(s) for longer period of time.