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Josh McDaniels had a confrontation with 2 vets (1 Viewer)

t8knovr

Footballguy
www.rotoworld.com

"A Broncos player tells CBS 4 Denver's Vic Lombardi that now-former coach Josh McDaniel's got into a confrontation with Champ Bailey and D.J. Williams on the practice field Monday.

It was McDaniel's final straw. The player called the argument "heated and contentious," and said it had to do with "wind sprints" the day after a game. Williams and McDaniel's had a checkered history, as the former coach stripped the veteran linebacker of his captaincy following Williams' arrest in mid-November. Several Broncos players were outwardly supportive of the move to fire McDaniel's on Monday. "McD" probably should've waited for a playoff berth or two before pretending to be Bill Belichick."

 
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Several Broncos players were outwardly supportive of the move to fire McDaniel's on Monday. "McD" probably should've waited for a playoff berth or two before pretending to be Bill Belichick."
I think "McD" just got faced. :)
 
www.rotoworld.com

"A Broncos player tells CBS 4 Denver's Vic Lombardi that now-former coach Josh McDaniel's got into a confrontation with Champ Bailey and D.J. Williams on the practice field Monday.

It was McDaniel's final straw. The player called the argument "heated and contentious," and said it had to do with "wind sprints" the day after a game. Williams and McDaniel's had a checkered history, as the former coach stripped the veteran linebacker of his captaincy following Williams' arrest in mid-November. Several Broncos players were outwardly supportive of the move to fire McDaniel's on Monday. "McD" probably should've waited for a playoff berth or two before pretending to be Bill Belichick."
Does anyone think McDaniels was wrong here?
 
www.rotoworld.com

"A Broncos player tells CBS 4 Denver's Vic Lombardi that now-former coach Josh McDaniel's got into a confrontation with Champ Bailey and D.J. Williams on the practice field Monday.

It was McDaniel's final straw. The player called the argument "heated and contentious," and said it had to do with "wind sprints" the day after a game. Williams and McDaniel's had a checkered history, as the former coach stripped the veteran linebacker of his captaincy following Williams' arrest in mid-November. Several Broncos players were outwardly supportive of the move to fire McDaniel's on Monday. "McD" probably should've waited for a playoff berth or two before pretending to be Bill Belichick."
Does anyone think McDaniels was wrong here?
I don't think he was wrong or right on that one. Strip him of team captain status or let him keep it...either way I saw no issue.
 
Bronco defense played pretty damn good against the Chiefs - so I'm not sure why wind sprints were required. The big problem was McDaniels calling for passing plays on first downs when Moreno was carving up the KC Defense for 160 yards - if anything MCDaniels should have been running wind sprints.

 
www.rotoworld.com

"A Broncos player tells CBS 4 Denver's Vic Lombardi that now-former coach Josh McDaniel's got into a confrontation with Champ Bailey and D.J. Williams on the practice field Monday.

It was McDaniel's final straw. The player called the argument "heated and contentious," and said it had to do with "wind sprints" the day after a game. Williams and McDaniel's had a checkered history, as the former coach stripped the veteran linebacker of his captaincy following Williams' arrest in mid-November. Several Broncos players were outwardly supportive of the move to fire McDaniel's on Monday. "McD" probably should've waited for a playoff berth or two before pretending to be Bill Belichick."
Does anyone think McDaniels was wrong here?
No. But again, like most things, it's 100% about winning. You can be the tough guy Belichick / Coughlin WAY easier when you have the rings. I call it the Bobby Knight syndrome. You can throw all the chairs your want when your're cutting down National Championship nets. You're "passionate" then. When you're not making the tournament, throwing chairs means you're "unstable" and you wind up at Texas Tech.

J

 
www.rotoworld.com

"A Broncos player tells CBS 4 Denver's Vic Lombardi that now-former coach Josh McDaniel's got into a confrontation with Champ Bailey and D.J. Williams on the practice field Monday.

It was McDaniel's final straw. The player called the argument "heated and contentious," and said it had to do with "wind sprints" the day after a game. Williams and McDaniel's had a checkered history, as the former coach stripped the veteran linebacker of his captaincy following Williams' arrest in mid-November. Several Broncos players were outwardly supportive of the move to fire McDaniel's on Monday. "McD" probably should've waited for a playoff berth or two before pretending to be Bill Belichick."
Does anyone think McDaniels was wrong here?
No. But again, like most things, it's 100% about winning. You can be the tough guy Belichick / Coughlin WAY easier when you have the rings. I call it the Bobby Knight syndrome. You can throw all the chairs your want when your're cutting down National Championship nets. You're "passionate" then. When you're not making the tournament, throwing chairs means you're "unstable" and you wind up at Texas Tech.

J
So would he have been better off being Wade Phillips. The Bobby Knight thing is a Red Herring. McD wasn't throwing chairs. Bowlen knew he was hiring an inexperienced coach with an attitude/ego. If he can't read personalities in an interview then shame on him.

McDaniels obviously had issues with players and he made some bone-headed draft picks; some of that can be laid at the feet of almost all GM's and coaches. The taping of the 49'ers was inexcusable particularly after going through a similar scenario in NE. If its true that he tried to hide that issue from the owner than that alone should have been enough to get him thrown out of Denver. The truth of the matter is that he likely would have been retained IF the Bronco's were wining.

The man has some self reflecting to do. It will be interesting to see where he ends up as an OC. There are plenty of inept offenses in the NFL that could use a bit of creativity. He's a pretty good QB coach as well.

 
www.rotoworld.com

"A Broncos player tells CBS 4 Denver's Vic Lombardi that now-former coach Josh McDaniel's got into a confrontation with Champ Bailey and D.J. Williams on the practice field Monday.

It was McDaniel's final straw. The player called the argument "heated and contentious," and said it had to do with "wind sprints" the day after a game. Williams and McDaniel's had a checkered history, as the former coach stripped the veteran linebacker of his captaincy following Williams' arrest in mid-November. Several Broncos players were outwardly supportive of the move to fire McDaniel's on Monday. "McD" probably should've waited for a playoff berth or two before pretending to be Bill Belichick."
Does anyone think McDaniels was wrong here?
No. But again, like most things, it's 100% about winning. You can be the tough guy Belichick / Coughlin WAY easier when you have the rings. I call it the Bobby Knight syndrome. You can throw all the chairs your want when your're cutting down National Championship nets. You're "passionate" then. When you're not making the tournament, throwing chairs means you're "unstable" and you wind up at Texas Tech.

J
So would he have been better off being Wade Phillips. The Bobby Knight thing is a Red Herring. McD wasn't throwing chairs. Bowlen knew he was hiring an inexperienced coach with an attitude/ego. If he can't read personalities in an interview then shame on him.

McDaniels obviously had issues with players and he made some bone-headed draft picks; some of that can be laid at the feet of almost all GM's and coaches. The taping of the 49'ers was inexcusable particularly after going through a similar scenario in NE. If its true that he tried to hide that issue from the owner than that alone should have been enough to get him thrown out of Denver. The truth of the matter is that he likely would have been retained IF the Bronco's were wining.

The man has some self reflecting to do. It will be interesting to see where he ends up as an OC. There are plenty of inept offenses in the NFL that could use a bit of creativity. He's a pretty good QB coach as well.
Not a red herring at all. It's a more extreme illustration of the same point. You can push things the more you win and the more "emotional capital" you have in the bank with the people you're working with. It's pretty simple.And of course he would have been retained if the Broncos were winning. Does anyone think otherwise?

J

 
www.rotoworld.com

"A Broncos player tells CBS 4 Denver's Vic Lombardi that now-former coach Josh McDaniel's got into a confrontation with Champ Bailey and D.J. Williams on the practice field Monday.

It was McDaniel's final straw. The player called the argument "heated and contentious," and said it had to do with "wind sprints" the day after a game. Williams and McDaniel's had a checkered history, as the former coach stripped the veteran linebacker of his captaincy following Williams' arrest in mid-November. Several Broncos players were outwardly supportive of the move to fire McDaniel's on Monday. "McD" probably should've waited for a playoff berth or two before pretending to be Bill Belichick."
Does anyone think McDaniels was wrong here?
No. But again, like most things, it's 100% about winning. You can be the tough guy Belichick / Coughlin WAY easier when you have the rings. I call it the Bobby Knight syndrome. You can throw all the chairs your want when your're cutting down National Championship nets. You're "passionate" then. When you're not making the tournament, throwing chairs means you're "unstable" and you wind up at Texas Tech.

J
So would he have been better off being Wade Phillips. The Bobby Knight thing is a Red Herring. McD wasn't throwing chairs. Bowlen knew he was hiring an inexperienced coach with an attitude/ego. If he can't read personalities in an interview then shame on him.

McDaniels obviously had issues with players and he made some bone-headed draft picks; some of that can be laid at the feet of almost all GM's and coaches. The taping of the 49'ers was inexcusable particularly after going through a similar scenario in NE. If its true that he tried to hide that issue from the owner than that alone should have been enough to get him thrown out of Denver. The truth of the matter is that he likely would have been retained IF the Bronco's were wining.

The man has some self reflecting to do. It will be interesting to see where he ends up as an OC. There are plenty of inept offenses in the NFL that could use a bit of creativity. He's a pretty good QB coach as well.
Not a red herring at all. It's a more extreme illustration of the same point. You can push things the more you win and the more "emotional capital" you have in the bank with the people you're working with. It's pretty simple.And of course he would have been retained if the Broncos were winning. Does anyone think otherwise?

J
Yeah, no kidding.
 
www.rotoworld.com

"A Broncos player tells CBS 4 Denver's Vic Lombardi that now-former coach Josh McDaniel's got into a confrontation with Champ Bailey and D.J. Williams on the practice field Monday.

It was McDaniel's final straw. The player called the argument "heated and contentious," and said it had to do with "wind sprints" the day after a game. Williams and McDaniel's had a checkered history, as the former coach stripped the veteran linebacker of his captaincy following Williams' arrest in mid-November. Several Broncos players were outwardly supportive of the move to fire McDaniel's on Monday. "McD" probably should've waited for a playoff berth or two before pretending to be Bill Belichick."
Does anyone think McDaniels was wrong here?
No. But again, like most things, it's 100% about winning. You can be the tough guy Belichick / Coughlin WAY easier when you have the rings. I call it the Bobby Knight syndrome. You can throw all the chairs your want when your're cutting down National Championship nets. You're "passionate" then. When you're not making the tournament, throwing chairs means you're "unstable" and you wind up at Texas Tech.

J
So would he have been better off being Wade Phillips. The Bobby Knight thing is a Red Herring. McD wasn't throwing chairs. Bowlen knew he was hiring an inexperienced coach with an attitude/ego. If he can't read personalities in an interview then shame on him.

McDaniels obviously had issues with players and he made some bone-headed draft picks; some of that can be laid at the feet of almost all GM's and coaches. The taping of the 49'ers was inexcusable particularly after going through a similar scenario in NE. If its true that he tried to hide that issue from the owner than that alone should have been enough to get him thrown out of Denver. The truth of the matter is that he likely would have been retained IF the Bronco's were wining.

The man has some self reflecting to do. It will be interesting to see where he ends up as an OC. There are plenty of inept offenses in the NFL that could use a bit of creativity. He's a pretty good QB coach as well.
He might be a good Xs and Os guy, but his people skills is what got him fired. I don't doubt some team will take a chance on him, but keep in mind a few things.While it's true that Bowlen had some idea what he was getting himslef into, he probably wasn't thrilled that McD basically ran off his best two offensive talents in Cutler and Marshall, then the D-Coordinator as well. The list of players McDaniels had issues with continued to grow to the point it became clear: it's not the players with the attitude problem.

Respect is somehing earned, not demanded and certainly not something that can be forced. McDaniels had BB-like ideas - the problem was, he hadn't earned the BB-liek respect. Not from his players, not from the fans and certainly not with his W/L record. If he goes someowhere else and has some decent success and finally gets another head coaching gig (3-4 years from now...at least), he will have to win first, then play "my way or the highway" if he wants.

 
www.rotoworld.com

"A Broncos player tells CBS 4 Denver's Vic Lombardi that now-former coach Josh McDaniel's got into a confrontation with Champ Bailey and D.J. Williams on the practice field Monday.

It was McDaniel's final straw. The player called the argument "heated and contentious," and said it had to do with "wind sprints" the day after a game. Williams and McDaniel's had a checkered history, as the former coach stripped the veteran linebacker of his captaincy following Williams' arrest in mid-November. Several Broncos players were outwardly supportive of the move to fire McDaniel's on Monday. "McD" probably should've waited for a playoff berth or two before pretending to be Bill Belichick."
Does anyone think McDaniels was wrong here?
No. But again, like most things, it's 100% about winning. You can be the tough guy Belichick / Coughlin WAY easier when you have the rings. I call it the Bobby Knight syndrome. You can throw all the chairs your want when your're cutting down National Championship nets. You're "passionate" then. When you're not making the tournament, throwing chairs means you're "unstable" and you wind up at Texas Tech.

J
So would he have been better off being Wade Phillips. The Bobby Knight thing is a Red Herring. McD wasn't throwing chairs. Bowlen knew he was hiring an inexperienced coach with an attitude/ego. If he can't read personalities in an interview then shame on him.

McDaniels obviously had issues with players and he made some bone-headed draft picks; some of that can be laid at the feet of almost all GM's and coaches. The taping of the 49'ers was inexcusable particularly after going through a similar scenario in NE. If its true that he tried to hide that issue from the owner than that alone should have been enough to get him thrown out of Denver. The truth of the matter is that he likely would have been retained IF the Bronco's were wining.

The man has some self reflecting to do. It will be interesting to see where he ends up as an OC. There are plenty of inept offenses in the NFL that could use a bit of creativity. He's a pretty good QB coach as well.
Not a red herring at all. It's a more extreme illustration of the same point. You can push things the more you win and the more "emotional capital" you have in the bank with the people you're working with. It's pretty simple.And of course he would have been retained if the Broncos were winning. Does anyone think otherwise?

J
Chicken or egg question. Players don't mutiny when they are winning. They don't always mutiny when they are losing. I doubt ANY NFL HC has players doing wind sprints on Monday. 'Ol Micky asked for a mutiny and he got it.
 
It's when things are going badly that you REALLY need people skills. McDaniels showed from the day he arrived that he was sadly lacking in those. Had he kept winning, it would have solved most of his problems. But when you lose, and lose badly, you have no savings in the bank.

 
Bailey shut down Bowe. Mickey D makes him run wind sprints the next day. I'd be like FU too. Mickey D needs to grow up, he's too young to be a head coach.

 
Racial issues are difficult to discuss, but often fascinating and extremely pertinent nonetheless. My question is this: is there a different path to success for young minority coaches in the league than young white coaches? I look at Mike Tomlin and Sean Payton as the prototypes for either scenario. Raheem Morris and John Gruden would also be interesting examples.

Older white coaches (Coughlin, Belly, Bobby Knight) are almost besides the point, as experience garners respect on its own merit.

 
Racial issues are difficult to discuss, but often fascinating and extremely pertinent nonetheless. My question is this: is there a different path to success for young minority coaches in the league than young white coaches? I look at Mike Tomlin and Sean Payton as the prototypes for either scenario. Raheem Morris and John Gruden would also be interesting examples. Older white coaches (Coughlin, Belly, Bobby Knight) are almost besides the point, as experience garners respect on its own merit.
I have no idea where you're going with this. Or what race has to do with anything.
 
Josh McDonalds did everything right after he was fired saying the right stuff so i'm sure he'll get another job doing something out there.

 
Racial issues are difficult to discuss, but often fascinating and extremely pertinent nonetheless. My question is this: is there a different path to success for young minority coaches in the league than young white coaches? I look at Mike Tomlin and Sean Payton as the prototypes for either scenario. Raheem Morris and John Gruden would also be interesting examples. Older white coaches (Coughlin, Belly, Bobby Knight) are almost besides the point, as experience garners respect on its own merit.
I have no idea where you're going with this. Or what race has to do with anything.
My hypothesis is that young black coaches are going to be given the benefit of the doubt in locker rooms that are 70% African-American, because: 1) they are often ex-NFL players, and 2) I suspect they are regarded with a measure of extra respect because they are regarded as pioneers in a profession that has historically discriminated against blacks (i.e. the Madden Report). While all (or almost all) players are hyper-competitive individuals who are driven to win, this is a different thing altogether than wanting your coach to succeed. Perhaps this is in part why teams statistically have shown more improvement in the first year after a coaching change when an African-American coach has taken over (see the Madden report). Further, I suspect that young white coaches often struggle to find a way to connect to their players because they fall back on authoritarian coaching methods that are not well received due, in part, to the historical baggage these methods carry. An overlooked key to Gruden and Payton's success as young coaches is that they forged an ironclad bond with their quarterbacks, Brees and Gannon, both extraordinarily strong, popular, veteran leaders who commanded absolute respect in the locker room. Whether or not McDaniels ever built such a r-ship with Orton, he is not a leader anywhere the caliber of Brees or Gannon.So many young white coaches are described as "gurus" or "prodigies," whereas young black coaches, perhaps due to latent racism in the media, are rarely, if ever, described as such. When that myth is inevitably dispelled, coaches like McDaniels (and Belichick v.1) have nothing to fall back upon, and they lose the locker room. As a white man, if I were a first-time coach in the NFL, the first thing I would do is try to forge a relationship with the strongest veteran leader on the team before worrying about impressing everyone with how brilliant I am or how tough I can be.
 
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Overall, he's not a very bright guy. Relationships with players is as important of a part if not more so than your personnel. Whether you take McDaniels side over Cutler and Marshall or not, who the hell comes in on his first coaching job and runs off the starting all-pro qb and wr during his first season? As a coach, you learn how to work that sort of thing out. You treat different players differently, not necessarily in a bad way either. Cutler and Marshall aren't Albert Haynesworth. It's amazing how confident he was in his ability to make those changes and still overcome it. It was over before it even started with that guy. He maybe smart football wise, but far from it with relationships, which is something he never seemed to understand. He got what he deserved. :confused:

 
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I think given racial issues, it is highly unlikely that a young African American coach would come in the way McDaniels did with an "entitlement attitude". They realize they have to get buy-in from the veteran players and show real leadership. I think no one is cutting them any slack and I do not believe "reverse racism" is operating in any way.

What did McDaniels ever do as a player?

 
Good offensive co-ordinator, terrible HC and with personnel.

I mean you inherit a team with a very talented young QB and WR combo in Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall, it's not perhaps the smartest thing in the world to run them both out of town.

 
The fact is.... he was 5-17 over the last 24 games. You don't win, you don't keep the job. Reference Childress and Wade.

Joe hit it on the head. When you are winning, you can do whatever you want as it's showing "passion" in the game. When you are losing (especially over consecutive seasons), then all of your decisions are questioned and your passion becomes a sign of instability.

 
I think Joe and a lot of the other posters are right: When you win, you can be a hard case and even uif you're wrong, people let it slide - even players - because you're winning.

When you lose, your act grows stale and people just think you're a jerk. When you lose 'he's being too tough on them'. When you win 'he pushes their buttons, he motivates them'. This works both ways - it's easier to be a players coach (liek the aforementioned Wade Phillips) when you're winning - the guys love him, the loose atmosphere really works. When you're losing = he can't control the players, they need a firmer hand.

Even the taping thing - if McDaniels been winning that would have been a smaller factor. As it stands, it was a huge black eye for an organization which was losing and already looked bad.

If Bill Belichick had been losing when Spygate happened, he probably would have been cut loose. Especially if in this alternate reality universe he had been a newer head coach without a Super Bowl ring he'd earned coaching.

Be interesting to watch Rex Ryan's tenure for the Jets (one I hope will be long and successful) - if things ever get rough, will be interesting to hear the flip side of all the press he's getting now.

As a Jets fan I hope I never find out.

 
t8knovr said:
www.rotoworld.com

"A Broncos player tells CBS 4 Denver's Vic Lombardi that now-former coach Josh McDaniel's got into a confrontation with Champ Bailey and D.J. Williams on the practice field Monday.

It was McDaniel's final straw. The player called the argument "heated and contentious," and said it had to do with "wind sprints" the day after a game. Williams and McDaniel's had a checkered history, as the former coach stripped the veteran linebacker of his captaincy following Williams' arrest in mid-November. Several Broncos players were outwardly supportive of the move to fire McDaniel's on Monday. "McD" probably should've waited for a playoff berth or two before pretending to be Bill Belichick."
Champ seemed surprised by this.

Question asked at the 2:10

http://www.thefox.com/mediaplayer/?action=...p;item=20701286

 
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Bermuda_Chub said:
Racial issues are difficult to discuss, but often fascinating and extremely pertinent nonetheless. My question is this: is there a different path to success for young minority coaches in the league than young white coaches? I look at Mike Tomlin and Sean Payton as the prototypes for either scenario. Raheem Morris and John Gruden would also be interesting examples.

Older white coaches (Coughlin, Belly, Bobby Knight) are almost besides the point, as experience garners respect on its own merit.
I have no idea where you're going with this. Or what race has to do with anything.
My hypothesis is that young black coaches are going to be given the benefit of the doubt in locker rooms that are 70% African-American, because: 1) they are often ex-NFL players, and 2) I suspect they are regarded with a measure of extra respect because they are regarded as pioneers in a profession that has historically discriminated against blacks (i.e. the Madden Report). While all (or almost all) players are hyper-competitive individuals who are driven to win, this is a different thing altogether than wanting your coach to succeed. Perhaps this is in part why teams statistically have shown more improvement in the first year after a coaching change when an African-American coach has taken over (see the Madden report). Further, I suspect that young white coaches often struggle to find a way to connect to their players because they fall back on authoritarian coaching methods that are not well received due, in part, to the historical baggage these methods carry. An overlooked key to Gruden and Payton's success as young coaches is that they forged an ironclad bond with their quarterbacks, Brees and Gannon, both extraordinarily strong, popular, veteran leaders who commanded absolute respect in the locker room. Whether or not McDaniels ever built such a r-ship with Orton, he is not a leader anywhere the caliber of Brees or Gannon.So many young white coaches are described as "gurus" or "prodigies," whereas young black coaches, perhaps due to latent racism in the media, are rarely, if ever, described as such. When that myth is inevitably dispelled, coaches like McDaniels (and Belichick v.1) have nothing to fall back upon, and they lose the locker room. As a white man, if I were a first-time coach in the NFL, the first thing I would do is try to forge a relationship with the strongest veteran leader on the team before worrying about impressing everyone with how brilliant I am or how tough I can be.
Who? Tomlin and Morris (the only two that qualify as young black NFL coaches) never played a down in the NFL...

 
Bermuda_Chub said:
My hypothesis is that young black coaches are going to be given the benefit of the doubt in locker rooms that are 70% African-American, because: 1) they are often ex-NFL players, and 2) I suspect they are regarded with a measure of extra respect because they are regarded as pioneers in a profession that has historically discriminated against blacks (i.e. the Madden Report). While all (or almost all) players are hyper-competitive individuals who are driven to win, this is a different thing altogether than wanting your coach to succeed. Perhaps this is in part why teams statistically have shown more improvement in the first year after a coaching change when an African-American coach has taken over (see the Madden report). Further, I suspect that young white coaches often struggle to find a way to connect to their players because they fall back on authoritarian coaching methods that are not well received due, in part, to the historical baggage these methods carry. An overlooked key to Gruden and Payton's success as young coaches is that they forged an ironclad bond with their quarterbacks, Brees and Gannon, both extraordinarily strong, popular, veteran leaders who commanded absolute respect in the locker room. Whether or not McDaniels ever built such a r-ship with Orton, he is not a leader anywhere the caliber of Brees or Gannon.So many young white coaches are described as "gurus" or "prodigies," whereas young black coaches, perhaps due to latent racism in the media, are rarely, if ever, described as such. When that myth is inevitably dispelled, coaches like McDaniels (and Belichick v.1) have nothing to fall back upon, and they lose the locker room. As a white man, if I were a first-time coach in the NFL, the first thing I would do is try to forge a relationship with the strongest veteran leader on the team before worrying about impressing everyone with how brilliant I am or how tough I can be.
Interesting hypothesis. Race may have some effect here and there, but I think personality plays a much bigger role than race, as there have been countless white coaches in history who were revered by the black players. Barry Switzer, believe it or not, is one that comes to mind. He took over the Cowboys and never really formed that bond you speak of with Aikman. But from what I've heard Michael Irvin say, he came in almost immediately won the black side of the locker room. Part of it was due to his "street cred" he had earned at Oaklahoma as a black players's coach, the rest to how he treated players on the Cowboys. So he had some history on his side that McDaniels did not have, but I think his personality is what won him the players.McDaniels just came off as a grade-A turd. I'm sure it wasn't just the black players he lost. Heck, Cutler was the first player he lost, and it was pretty much downhill from there. I seem to remember some feuding with Hillis before he was traded. Nope, McDaniels is an equal-oppurtunity turd.
 
Bermuda_Chub said:
My hypothesis is that young black coaches are going to be given the benefit of the doubt in locker rooms that are 70% African-American, because: 1) they are often ex-NFL players, and 2) I suspect they are regarded with a measure of extra respect because they are regarded as pioneers in a profession that has historically discriminated against blacks (i.e. the Madden Report). While all (or almost all) players are hyper-competitive individuals who are driven to win, this is a different thing altogether than wanting your coach to succeed. Perhaps this is in part why teams statistically have shown more improvement in the first year after a coaching change when an African-American coach has taken over (see the Madden report). Further, I suspect that young white coaches often struggle to find a way to connect to their players because they fall back on authoritarian coaching methods that are not well received due, in part, to the historical baggage these methods carry. An overlooked key to Gruden and Payton's success as young coaches is that they forged an ironclad bond with their quarterbacks, Brees and Gannon, both extraordinarily strong, popular, veteran leaders who commanded absolute respect in the locker room. Whether or not McDaniels ever built such a r-ship with Orton, he is not a leader anywhere the caliber of Brees or Gannon.So many young white coaches are described as "gurus" or "prodigies," whereas young black coaches, perhaps due to latent racism in the media, are rarely, if ever, described as such. When that myth is inevitably dispelled, coaches like McDaniels (and Belichick v.1) have nothing to fall back upon, and they lose the locker room. As a white man, if I were a first-time coach in the NFL, the first thing I would do is try to forge a relationship with the strongest veteran leader on the team before worrying about impressing everyone with how brilliant I am or how tough I can be.
Interesting hypothesis. Race may have some effect here and there, but I think personality plays a much bigger role than race, as there have been countless white coaches in history who were revered by the black players. Barry Switzer, believe it or not, is one that comes to mind. He took over the Cowboys and never really formed that bond you speak of with Aikman. But from what I've heard Michael Irvin say, he came in almost immediately won the black side of the locker room. Part of it was due to his "street cred" he had earned at Oaklahoma as a black players's coach, the rest to how he treated players on the Cowboys. So he had some history on his side that McDaniels did not have, but I think his personality is what won him the players.McDaniels just came off as a grade-A turd. I'm sure it wasn't just the black players he lost. Heck, Cutler was the first player he lost, and it was pretty much downhill from there. I seem to remember some feuding with Hillis before he was traded. Nope, McDaniels is an equal-oppurtunity turd.
I'm sure race plays a part with all coaches.As for McD, people listen when you're winning. Or you have hardware. No one was #####ing about him when he was 6-0. But when he starts tanking people lose faith you know what you're doing. He was given way too much power, he made a lot of mistakes, and mini belichick routine only works when you have a SB ring or you're winning. Once he started losing he just turned into a clown. Champ is as stand up guy as you'll find. For him to start questioning the HC like that, I have to believe there was a lot of other stuff going on behind the scenes. Which also explains why he was fired midseason. He'll get another OC job and probably do fairly well. His offense with Orton/Lloyd/Gaffney was pretty solid. He's a horrible GM and probably not ready to be a coach. But I think we'll see more of him in the NFL, just not making draft picks.
 
Bermuda_Chub said:
My hypothesis is that young black coaches are going to be given the benefit of the doubt in locker rooms that are 70% African-American, because: 1) they are often ex-NFL players, and 2) I suspect they are regarded with a measure of extra respect because they are regarded as pioneers in a profession that has historically discriminated against blacks (i.e. the Madden Report). While all (or almost all) players are hyper-competitive individuals who are driven to win, this is a different thing altogether than wanting your coach to succeed. Perhaps this is in part why teams statistically have shown more improvement in the first year after a coaching change when an African-American coach has taken over (see the Madden report). Further, I suspect that young white coaches often struggle to find a way to connect to their players because they fall back on authoritarian coaching methods that are not well received due, in part, to the historical baggage these methods carry. An overlooked key to Gruden and Payton's success as young coaches is that they forged an ironclad bond with their quarterbacks, Brees and Gannon, both extraordinarily strong, popular, veteran leaders who commanded absolute respect in the locker room. Whether or not McDaniels ever built such a r-ship with Orton, he is not a leader anywhere the caliber of Brees or Gannon.

So many young white coaches are described as "gurus" or "prodigies," whereas young black coaches, perhaps due to latent racism in the media, are rarely, if ever, described as such. When that myth is inevitably dispelled, coaches like McDaniels (and Belichick v.1) have nothing to fall back upon, and they lose the locker room. As a white man, if I were a first-time coach in the NFL, the first thing I would do is try to forge a relationship with the strongest veteran leader on the team before worrying about impressing everyone with how brilliant I am or how tough I can be.
Interesting hypothesis. Race may have some effect here and there, but I think personality plays a much bigger role than race, as there have been countless white coaches in history who were revered by the black players. Barry Switzer, believe it or not, is one that comes to mind. He took over the Cowboys and never really formed that bond you speak of with Aikman. But from what I've heard Michael Irvin say, he came in almost immediately won the black side of the locker room. Part of it was due to his "street cred" he had earned at Oaklahoma as a black players's coach, the rest to how he treated players on the Cowboys. So he had some history on his side that McDaniels did not have, but I think his personality is what won him the players.McDaniels just came off as a grade-A turd. I'm sure it wasn't just the black players he lost. Heck, Cutler was the first player he lost, and it was pretty much downhill from there. I seem to remember some feuding with Hillis before he was traded. Nope, McDaniels is an equal-oppurtunity turd.
I'm sure race plays a part with all coaches.As for McD, people listen when you're winning. Or you have hardware. No one was #####ing about him when he was 6-0. But when he starts tanking people lose faith you know what you're doing. He was given way too much power, he made a lot of mistakes, and mini belichick routine only works when you have a SB ring or you're winning. Once he started losing he just turned into a clown.

Champ is as stand up guy as you'll find. For him to start questioning the HC like that, I have to believe there was a lot of other stuff going on behind the scenes. Which also explains why he was fired midseason.

He'll get another OC job and probably do fairly well. His offense with Orton/Lloyd/Gaffney was pretty solid. He's a horrible GM and probably not ready to be a coach. But I think we'll see more of him in the NFL, just not making draft picks.
Just to clarify on the above bolded, it appears Champ is denying the run-in w/ McDaniels referenced in the OP.Bailey also emphatically denied a report from CBS 4, citing an anonymous player, that Bailey was involved in a verbal altercation with McDaniels on Monday afternoon.

"No. Heck no. I don't know where that came from. No, no. no," Bailey said. "We had a team meeting that morning, and I didn't see Josh the rest of the day."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16803...implepiebroncos

 
While it's true that Bowlen had some idea what he was getting himslef into, he probably wasn't thrilled that McD basically ran off his best two offensive talents in Cutler and Marshall,
Cutler, at the salary he demanded, is not worth owning.Marshall is a very good WR, and worth a significant contract, but given the attitude I am not sure losing him is a big problem either.I know a lot of local fans look at chasing these guys off as a problem, but in today's cap NFL I do not think that's actually the case.
 
The interesting thing to me is that this isn't that obvious. Cutler and Marshall weren't the problem in my opinion. Orton and Lloyd have been fantastic.

I think Elvis Dumervil's injury is what did him in. Once they lost that pass rush, it all fell apart.

J

 
While it's true that Bowlen had some idea what he was getting himslef into, he probably wasn't thrilled that McD basically ran off his best two offensive talents in Cutler and Marshall,
Cutler, at the salary he demanded, is not worth owning.
I don't remember Cutler making any exorbitant contract demands. And the deal he eventually signed is reasonable for a young Pro Bowl QB at the time.
10/20/2009: Signed a five-year, $49.77 million contract. The deal contains $20 million guaranteed, including a $7 million signing bonus, virtually all of Cutler's first-year salary, and $3.3 million of his 2010 base pay. Cutler can earn $500,000 workout bonuses in each year 2010-2013. 2009: $10.035 million (+ $100,000 workout bonus), 2010: $7.5 million, 2011: $8.1 million, 2012: $8.2 million, 2013: $8.9 million, 2014: Free Agent. Cap charge: $11.435 million (2009).
 
Mike Lombardi, who is one of my favorite NFL writers, just posted a story about this that's considerably sympathetic to the Josh McDaniels side. I know he's spent some time with McDaniels in the offseason but it has to be one of the most biased pieces he's ever done!

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81cb...e?module=HP_cp2

McDaniels paid price for Broncos' lack of commitment to change

What happened to Josh McDaniels on Monday, being fired not even two full years into his tenure with the Denver Broncos, was, as Yogi Berra once said, "Déjà vu all over again." At least it was for me.

I saw this before, back in 1996, when I was director of player personnel for the Browns and owner Art Modell fired Bill Belichick over the phone on Valentine's Day. Modell struggled with the fans' reluctance to embrace their young coach from his first day on the job. Modell struggled with the losing season as the team planned to move from Cleveland to Baltimore. More than anything, he struggled with staying with the plan. Modell failed to see the future, as he wanted to make the fans happy and never felt there was more than a ripple of hope staying the course with his youthful coach.

Having worked side by side with Belichick for five years, I honestly knew one day he was going to eventually win a Super Bowl, in part because he was super smart and had a willingness to adapt. He was always divergent in his thought process. He was, and still is, the best listener I have ever been around.

With Belichick, there was never an ego in the room. He only focused on what was urgent and important each day. He had core principles and beliefs he adhered to, never wavering off those beliefs. But in Cleveland, he could not overcome the changes he insisted on making, which alienated the fan base and caused concern for Modell. And when the 1995 season slipped away from us, we all knew we were in trouble.

In any sport, losing is extremely difficult -- it's hard on the mind, body and spirit. It challenges every prior belief an organization holds true, forcing constant evaluations of the path, the direction and the journey chosen for the organization. It is human nature to second-guess every move on a losing path. Few, in most sports, are willing to brave the losing, the criticism of the media, or the wrath of their fans. Believing in principles and having the courage to stand alone is a rarer quality than bravery in battle or superior intelligence. Yet it is the one essential for teams that desire to win Super Bowls.

When Belichick was hired in Cleveland, Modell had no idea what he had, or what Belichick could eventually become. He never thought in three dimensions, or hired with a plan; he just hoped for success, in large part because Modell based every decision on what the media and the fans thought. Modell had a wonderful heart. He wanted to make his fan base happy, therefore hiring Belichick after winning a Super Bowl with the New York Giants was great, and firing him after the fans revolted was also great -- never mind he just extended his contract.

Belichick's success in New England was due to his experience in Cleveland -- that Modell financed and Patriots owner Robert Kraft now enjoys. Any time a team hires a young coach or a young executive, one must think in a three-dimensional way. Does he have the aptitude to be a successful leader? Does he have the willingness to grow? Do we have the strength to handle the turbulent times?

Modell paid for Belichick's education as a head coach, an education that has to be lived, not learned. There are no schools to attend to be a successful coach in the NFL. And just because an assistant works for a successful coach does not ensure success when it comes time for a promotion to the head coach's chair.

When the Broncos hired McDaniels and turned over all the power to him, they had to understand there would likely be tough times. But did they?

As an outsider looking in, when the Broncos hired McDaniels, I thought they were willing to change the direction of their organization. Having spent a brief time volunteering my services as a consultant to Mike Shanahan, I saw firsthand Denver's ridiculous spending on players, the failure to have a personnel department, and the constant approach to repair as opposed to rebuild. Therefore, when the Broncos fired Shanahan following the 2008 season and decided to change the course, eliminating the free-spending of the past, the move signaled to me that they wanted to try the Patriot Way, which centers on building a total team through the draft, cut spending in free agency and develop coaches and players from within.

Timing allows Broncos to move on

While the timing of Josh McDaniels' firing came as a surprise, it could help the Broncos get an early start on finding their next head coach, writes Steve Wyche. More ...

» Losses weren't due to lack of effort Initially, it made sense to me, as most owners tend to hire the opposite of what they just fired. Firing McDaniels 28 games into his tenure as the head coach is bad for both parties. It wasn't enough time for the team to be fully developed, or enough time for McDaniels to grow into the job.

And therein lies the problem -- the Broncos wanted to change, but were not committed to change. Once they slipped into a different world, they longed to be back to their old ways of doing things. They really love the Bronco Way.

Never mind they have only won one playoff game in the last 12 years. Never mind they lack talent on the field, or are going to be paying three head coaches as a result of McDaniels' firing. Never mind they might have to take two steps back to move forward. Clearly, this move means the Broncos long for their old days, and potentially bringing John Elway back into the organization signals how much they miss those days.

Why does it seem that most of Belichick's assistants never attain a high level of success when becoming a head coach? It might appear that way on the surface, however the coaches involved with Belichick in Cleveland have done well -- from Pat Hill at Fresno State to Kirk Ferentz at Iowa to Nick Saban at Alabama.

And the ones who have only been in New England -- Charlie Weis, Romeo Crennel and now McDaniels -- have missed the element of what went into developing the program in Cleveland, therefore they missed a huge step in the evolution. The failure rate among NFL coaches, regardless of their background is high. However when coaches leave an established program like the one in New England, not every owner is willing to embrace the time it takes to lay the foundation. Also, not all the new coaches carry Belichick's uncanny ability to evaluate talent, and also what his team needs to be successful.

Belichick's success lies in his ability to coach, but also in his ability to be the general manager. He can wear two hats, and not every coach that leaves the Patriots can do the same.

Broncos chief operating officer Joe Ellis said Tuesday that the team was at fault for giving McDaniels too much power too soon.

While that might be true, I believe McDaniels will one day be a successful head coach. I believe this because I know what it takes to be successful in the league. I've never worked with Josh, nor have I spent much time around him. But I have observed him each week, from his game plans to his teams' performance on the field. His teams might not have been the most talented, but they were well-coached, well-designed and well-prepared.

McDaniels will learn from his tenure in Denver, just as Belichick learned from his time in Cleveland, and some other owner willing to change will benefit greatly.
 
Joe Bryant said:
munchkin said:
Joe Bryant said:
Chase Stuart said:
t8knovr said:
www.rotoworld.com

"A Broncos player tells CBS 4 Denver's Vic Lombardi that now-former coach Josh McDaniel's got into a confrontation with Champ Bailey and D.J. Williams on the practice field Monday.

It was McDaniel's final straw. The player called the argument "heated and contentious," and said it had to do with "wind sprints" the day after a game. Williams and McDaniel's had a checkered history, as the former coach stripped the veteran linebacker of his captaincy following Williams' arrest in mid-November. Several Broncos players were outwardly supportive of the move to fire McDaniel's on Monday. "McD" probably should've waited for a playoff berth or two before pretending to be Bill Belichick."
Does anyone think McDaniels was wrong here?
No. But again, like most things, it's 100% about winning. You can be the tough guy Belichick / Coughlin WAY easier when you have the rings. I call it the Bobby Knight syndrome. You can throw all the chairs your want when your're cutting down National Championship nets. You're "passionate" then. When you're not making the tournament, throwing chairs means you're "unstable" and you wind up at Texas Tech.

J
So would he have been better off being Wade Phillips. The Bobby Knight thing is a Red Herring. McD wasn't throwing chairs. Bowlen knew he was hiring an inexperienced coach with an attitude/ego. If he can't read personalities in an interview then shame on him.

McDaniels obviously had issues with players and he made some bone-headed draft picks; some of that can be laid at the feet of almost all GM's and coaches. The taping of the 49'ers was inexcusable particularly after going through a similar scenario in NE. If its true that he tried to hide that issue from the owner than that alone should have been enough to get him thrown out of Denver. The truth of the matter is that he likely would have been retained IF the Bronco's were wining.

The man has some self reflecting to do. It will be interesting to see where he ends up as an OC. There are plenty of inept offenses in the NFL that could use a bit of creativity. He's a pretty good QB coach as well.
Not a red herring at all. It's a more extreme illustration of the same point. You can push things the more you win and the more "emotional capital" you have in the bank with the people you're working with. It's pretty simple.And of course he would have been retained if the Broncos were winning. Does anyone think otherwise?

J
This was taught to me as a concept called competency/deviancy. The premise is that the more you demonstrate that you are competant at your job, the more you are able to deviate from the "norm". It happens way beyond the football arena. The car dealership might cut the lead car salesman some slack for tying on a bender and coming in late one morning, for instance. I teach it to my employees. If they perform like hell and want to be a little goofy then fine. But if you're a marginal performer you better damn well be on time, well dressed etc.

 
The interesting thing to me is that this isn't that obvious. Cutler and Marshall weren't the problem in my opinion. Orton and Lloyd have been fantastic. I think Elvis Dumervil's injury is what did him in. Once they lost that pass rush, it all fell apart.J
Did Dumervil miss the second half of last year as well? I'm not sure this is the case.
 
People opining that Denver would be better off with Cutler and Marshall have not been paying attention.

Orton has outperformed Cutler but any measure imaginable; similarly Lloyd has greatly outperformed Marshall.

If anything he should be lauded for selling high on overrated players. Obviously some of his other personnel decisions leave much to be desired, but that can be said for many teams.

Defense was absurdly healthy in 2009 propelling the team to 6-0 start.

Defense is absurdly injured in 2010 - combine that with a few bad breaks - Jets 4th down DPI and 49ers fleaflicker TD called back and you have a losing season.

There's no reason really to dig deeper than that.

Broncos were a mediocre team before the year started - throw injuries and bad breaks and they end up with 4-5 wins instead of 8. Does this mean you should fire the coach? I don't think so... bring in a GM and strip him of personnel decisions if you want, but don't fire the guy.

 
People opining that Denver would be better off with Cutler and Marshall have not been paying attention. Orton has outperformed Cutler but any measure imaginable; similarly Lloyd has greatly outperformed Marshall.If anything he should be lauded for selling high on overrated players. Obviously some of his other personnel decisions leave much to be desired, but that can be said for many teams. Defense was absurdly healthy in 2009 propelling the team to 6-0 start. Defense is absurdly injured in 2010 - combine that with a few bad breaks - Jets 4th down DPI and 49ers fleaflicker TD called back and you have a losing season.There's no reason really to dig deeper than that.Broncos were a mediocre team before the year started - throw injuries and bad breaks and they end up with 4-5 wins instead of 8. Does this mean you should fire the coach? I don't think so... bring in a GM and strip him of personnel decisions if you want, but don't fire the guy.
The moves forced Denver to address those positions in the draft instead of fixing that woeful defense and other personnel moves (two first round draft picks on a QB and WR, drafting and trading for TEs, and trading of Hillis for Quinn).Also rumors are that they approached McD about taking his GM responsibilities away and he refused which led to the firing. As Ellis stated in interviews since they feel they gave too much responsibility to one person.
 
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People opining that Denver would be better off with Cutler and Marshall have not been paying attention. Orton has outperformed Cutler but any measure imaginable; similarly Lloyd has greatly outperformed Marshall.If anything he should be lauded for selling high on overrated players. Obviously some of his other personnel decisions leave much to be desired, but that can be said for many teams. Defense was absurdly healthy in 2009 propelling the team to 6-0 start. Defense is absurdly injured in 2010 - combine that with a few bad breaks - Jets 4th down DPI and 49ers fleaflicker TD called back and you have a losing season.There's no reason really to dig deeper than that.Broncos were a mediocre team before the year started - throw injuries and bad breaks and they end up with 4-5 wins instead of 8. Does this mean you should fire the coach? I don't think so... bring in a GM and strip him of personnel decisions if you want, but don't fire the guy.
The moves forced Denver to address those positions in the draft instead of fixing that woeful defense and other personnel moves (two first round draft picks on a QB and WR, drafting and trading for TEs, and trading of Hillis for Quinn).Also rumors are that they approached McD about taking his GM responsibilities away and he refused which led to the firing. As Ellis stated in interviews since they feel they gave too much responsibility to one person.
:goodposting: The defense was broken, not the offense. If McD was that brilliant of an offensive coach, he could have gotten Cutler and Marshall to perform it. Instead he spent 2/3rds of his energy, money, draft picks focusing on transforming the offense while everyone knew the defense was bad.
 
While it's true that Bowlen had some idea what he was getting himslef into, he probably wasn't thrilled that McD basically ran off his best two offensive talents in Cutler and Marshall,
Cutler, at the salary he demanded, is not worth owning.
What are you refering to? Cutler has a solid contract. I don't ever remembering an issue with salary demands.
 
People opining that Denver would be better off with Cutler and Marshall have not been paying attention. Orton has outperformed Cutler but any measure imaginable; similarly Lloyd has greatly outperformed Marshall.If anything he should be lauded for selling high on overrated players. Obviously some of his other personnel decisions leave much to be desired, but that can be said for many teams. Defense was absurdly healthy in 2009 propelling the team to 6-0 start. Defense is absurdly injured in 2010 - combine that with a few bad breaks - Jets 4th down DPI and 49ers fleaflicker TD called back and you have a losing season.There's no reason really to dig deeper than that.Broncos were a mediocre team before the year started - throw injuries and bad breaks and they end up with 4-5 wins instead of 8. Does this mean you should fire the coach? I don't think so... bring in a GM and strip him of personnel decisions if you want, but don't fire the guy.
That's not the point. It was the handling of these players that pissed them off. The Cutler situation was as mismanaged as I can remember. From straight up lying (something McDaniels does a lot and is terrible at), to treating players like children. Besides, how do you know that Cutler wouldn't do as good as Orton if their situations were different? Both Cutler and Marshall have not exactly been put in a situation to succeed it their first years out of Denver. Cutler is doing great now but both players have a history of outpeforming Lloyd and Orton. Nothing has changed but their circumstances.
 
People opining that Denver would be better off with Cutler and Marshall have not been paying attention. Orton has outperformed Cutler but any measure imaginable; similarly Lloyd has greatly outperformed Marshall.If anything he should be lauded for selling high on overrated players. Obviously some of his other personnel decisions leave much to be desired, but that can be said for many teams. Defense was absurdly healthy in 2009 propelling the team to 6-0 start. Defense is absurdly injured in 2010 - combine that with a few bad breaks - Jets 4th down DPI and 49ers fleaflicker TD called back and you have a losing season.There's no reason really to dig deeper than that.Broncos were a mediocre team before the year started - throw injuries and bad breaks and they end up with 4-5 wins instead of 8. Does this mean you should fire the coach? I don't think so... bring in a GM and strip him of personnel decisions if you want, but don't fire the guy.
The moves forced Denver to address those positions in the draft instead of fixing that woeful defense and other personnel moves (two first round draft picks on a QB and WR, drafting and trading for TEs, and trading of Hillis for Quinn).Also rumors are that they approached McD about taking his GM responsibilities away and he refused which led to the firing. As Ellis stated in interviews since they feel they gave too much responsibility to one person.
If that's the case then he deserved to be fired. In all fairness, the defense greatly outperformed the offense in 2009 so why does everyone take issue with him using draft picks on offense? I understand Tebow / Richard Quinn (LOL) - but the others...
 
Mike Lombardi, who is one of my favorite NFL writers, just posted a story about this that's considerably sympathetic to the Josh McDaniels side. I know he's spent some time with McDaniels in the offseason but it has to be one of the most biased pieces he's ever done!
Awful piece that misses the mark for several reasons. 1. Belichik's controversial moves involved benching players who were over the hill, most notably Kosar. What McDaniels did is not analagous. He ran off talented players who were in their prime. 2. McDaniels got caught covering up the actions of a staff member who broke the rules. Belichik did nothing unethical that I am aware of while he was in Cleveland. The comparison of the two situations is forced at best.
 

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