K-9 Vick out for the year? (1 Viewer)

[hutchins929]

I hope everyone who felt OJ was guilty wrote him an apology letter after he was found innocent

OJ was NEVER found "innocent"! He was found "Not Guilty".BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

***Edited To Add Link***

 

[3C's]

Wow, so looks like not only do they have no evidence to charge Vick, but they don't even have evidence to charge anyone with dog fighting.

It's far from over. NFL security is now on the scene. NFL security is composed of ex-FBI/CIA agents.Pay careful attention to this part:

Poindexter has said there was evidence of dogfighting in a two-story house on the property...but there might not be enough to file charges at this point. Poindexter emphasized that the investigation is far from over.

Eyewitness testimony has not been needed to gain convictions in dogfighting cases, but "it would help" in this investigation, Poindexter said.

 

[Festus]

So, I ask. Where are the drugs that were supposedly injected into these dogs? Maybe some of ya'll didn't know this....

The purchasing of the syringes could very easily be used to dispense medication. I myself have purchased syringes w/needles, equine pyrantel paste (strongid), vaccinations and other medications such as ivermectin.

Ivermectin is a wonder drug. It listed as a tick and mite paraticide for cattle. But it has so many other uses in dogs.

Ivermectin is the active ingredient in Heartguard, a heartworm preventative. You know, that box you purchase from the vet that runs about $50 bucks (probably more) and lasts 6 months. A 50 ml vial of Ivermectin can last you years with one or two dogs. With a whole kennel of dogs the price at $50-$60 for a vial can't be beat. Virginia is an east coast state and it is laden with heartworms. One of the highest in the nation.

Ivermectin is used in the treatment of sarcoptic and demodectic mange. Demodectic mange is also called "puppy mange" and it derives from mite that all dogs carry. Most vets prescribe a dip that costs a good bit of money, but Ivermectin works just as well and it's a heck of a lot cheaper.

Note: Do not give ivermectin to any collie type breeds. They are extremely sensitive to it and it can prove fatal.

Ivermectin

Have any of you considered that kennel is providing it's own vaccinations? I do it with my animals and it's so much cheaper than paying a $30 walk through the door charge at my vets not to mention the $15-$25 for the vaccination itself. I can run down to the feed mill and pick up some DA2 for $5 bucks a dose.

Pit bulls, while they generally are people friendly dogs have a propensity to be aggressive towards other animals to include other dogs. It would make common sense to me that if a pit bull ever escaped from it's pen that a break stick would be handy. While their jaws do not lock per se, they do have extremely powerful jaws that a normal person would be unable to break apart once latched onto the neck of another dog. The pit bulls pain tolerance is incredible. The break stick is ran in between the jaws and the stick has a point on one end, this point is then pressed against the roof of the mouth and that will get through to the dog to lessen or break it's grip. It's quite possible that is the purpose of the people possessing the stick in the first place. Why lose money over a dead dog when you can break up the attack if one were to occur?

As an aside, I'll trust a fighting pit bull over a common pit bull pet any day of the week. A professional fighter will put down any pit bull that displays aggression towards a human.

Break Stick

If I raised pit bulls for a living you can bet that I would have a treadmill on my property. When a person looks for a pit bull they look for a well-muscled dog. When a dog is confined to a kennel they tend to lose muscle tone and the treadmill will provide a hard work out for a dog in a short period of time. Some people who use their dogs in pull contests will use a treadmill for training purposes.

From what I've read, only one of the sixty some dogs on the property displayed scars consistent with dog fighting. Heck, I had a Dogo Argentino for 10 years and he was a catch dog for wild boars. Even when wearing the guantlets, the pigs would still sometimes get to him and I carried a full medical bag with lidocaine, ketamine, xylazine, Monoject syringes, sutures and all manner of hemostats and scissors. I sewed up my dog and my fellow hunters dogs in the field. My dog would've qualified as a "fighting dog" as his scars were consistent with dog fighting. Scars to the head, neck and shoulders.

Dogo Argentino

Lastly, if any of you knew anything about the sport of dog fighting, you would know that the true professionals do not put their dogs on steroids or feed them gunpowder, a great majority of the fights are not to the death (who wants to lose thousands in the investment of breeding and raising) and the dogs are matched by weight and breed. Ya'll need to stop believing everything that the HSUS and PeTA feed to you as both those groups are rabid animal rights organizations who would rather see an end to all hunting, fishing, trapping, meat-eating, medical experimentation, pet ownership and fully support the extinction of the domestic cat and dog.

And finally, why are you so concerned over how somebody treats their property? Next it may be your animal that is targetted.

 

[Festus]

"I'm extremely disappointed and embarrassed for Clinton Portis," Goodell said in a written statement following a one-day NFL owners' meeting. "This does not reflect the sentiments of the Redskins, the NFL or NFL players."

Isn't Clinton Portis an NFL player?Portis got it right, finally somebody got it right. The dogs are the property of the owner, not the property of the public and any law that interferes with property when that property is not injuring or aggressing against another person or that person's property is an invalid law.

Property rights, people. Property rights.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Ever see Pits roll, Festus?

 

[Festus]

Vick case shines light on bloodspport

This is the kind of thing I am hoping for:

The investigation into alleged dog fighting at the former Virginia home owned by Falcons quarterback Michael Vick could shine a cleansing light onto the ugly bloodsport.

"Any high-profile case that results in exposure or arrest sends a signal to others that they are playing with fire will help," said Wayne Pacelle, president and CEO of the Humane Society of the United States. "There's no type of animal cruelty that comes with harsher penalties than organized dog fighting. It's a felony in 48 states and a federal felony.

"Hopefully, an unfortunate case like this with Vick brings attention and gets into the minds of those involved and causes them to say, 'Hey, I need to think about whether this is something I want to continue being a part of.'"

Could it be any more high profile than Michael Vick?

.... snip...

Unfortunately, it's prevalent, said Pacelle.

"Tens of thousands of people are involved in pit bull fighting," he said. "It's glorified in rap, it's celebrated by athletes. The same impulses that caused people in the days of the Roman Empire to go to The Coliseum to see staged fights between lions and bears are in this. There is something that appeals to a segment of people in terms of bloodlust."

Former NFL players Nate Newton, Leshon Johnson and Tyrone Wheatley as well as Qyntel Woods, a first-round pick of the Portland Trail Blazers in 2002, have all been linked to dog fighting. Both Johnson and Woods were arrested and convicted of staging them.

There is not one, simple profile that fits all those who participate in dog fighting, said Pacelle.

"There is an enormous underground industry operating in almost every community in the country -- urban, suburban and rural," he said.

While the most serious dog fighters are involved in breeding and maintaining bloodlines and may fight their dogs nationally or even internationally, the most primitive groups are "street fighters; more involved with urban culture," Pacelle said.

The alleged operation at Vick's former Virginia home seemed to fall in the middle. Sixty-six animals were found on his property, many bearing the scars of organized dog fighting.

... snip....

"What are the chances we've found even 10 percent of (the pro athletes) involved," wondered Corbin. "Highly unlikely."

"If this is an indicator of a subculture of pro sports, which we think it is," said Pacelle, "the leaders of the pro sports leagues need to work with us or others to get the message out."

LMAO! Wayne Pacelle is a joke, albeit a dangerous joke.Here's some quotes from this animal rights activist.

“We would be foolish and silly not to unite with people in the public health sector, the environmental community, [and] unions, to try to challenge corporate agriculture.”

— “Animal Rights 2002” convention, Jul 2002

“We are going to use the ballot box and the democratic process to stop all hunting in the United States ... We will take it species by species until all hunting is stopped in California. Then we will take it state by state.”

— Full Cry magazine, Oct 1990

“If we could shut down all sport hunting in a moment, we would.”

— Associated Press, Dec 1991

“We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding ...One generation and out. We have no problems with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding.”

— Animal People News, May 1993

“Our goal is to get sport hunting in the same category as #### fighting and dog fighting.”

— Bozeman (MT) Daily Chronicle, Oct 1991

“I don’t have a hands-on fondness for animals…To this day I don’t feel bonded to any non-human animal. I like them and I pet them and I’m kind to them, but there’s no special bond between me and other animals.” Wayne Pacelle quoted in Bloodties: Nature, Culture and the Hunt by Ted Kerasote, 1993, p. 251.

When asked if he envisioned a future without pets, “If I had my personal view, perhaps that might take hold. In fact, I don’t want to see another dog or cat born.” Wayne Pacelle quoted in Bloodties: Nature, Culture and the Hunt by Ted Kerasote, 1993, p. 266.

“The entire animal rights movement in the United States reacted with unfettered glee at the Ban in England ...We view this act of parliament as one of the most important actions in the history of the animal rights movement. This will energise our efforts to stop hunting with hounds.” Wayne Pacelle, CEO, Humane Society of the US (HSUS), London Times, December 26, 2004

“The definition of obscenity on the newsstands should be extended to many hunting magazines.” Wayne Pacelle, quoted in Bloodties: Nature, Culture and the Hunt by Ted Kerasote, 1993, p. 265.

HSUS has $65 million on hand and over $100 million in assets. Enough money to fund every animal/humane shelter/society in the nation. The Humane Society of the United States DOES NOT operate one humane society or animal shelter.

It's all about control, folks.

 

[Festus]

Ever see Pits roll, Festus?

Yep. Should that be of concern to me and my property?

 

[Chaos Commish]

Ever see Pits roll, Festus?

Yep. Should that be of concern to me and my property?

Ever match your own dog?

 

[Festus]

Ever see Pits roll, Festus?

Yep. Should that be of concern to me and my property?

Ever match your own dog?

Why would I?

 

[Chaos Commish]

Ever see Pits roll, Festus?

Yep. Should that be of concern to me and my property?

Ever match your own dog?

Why would I?

Why not? Your property after all.

 

[Festus]

Ever see Pits roll, Festus?

Yep. Should that be of concern to me and my property?

Ever match your own dog?

Why would I?

Why not? Your property after all.

True, yet I never desired to partake of that activity.

 

[Pygmy Marmoset]

"I'm extremely disappointed and embarrassed for Clinton Portis," Goodell said in a written statement following a one-day NFL owners' meeting. "This does not reflect the sentiments of the Redskins, the NFL or NFL players."

Isn't Clinton Portis an NFL player?Portis got it right, finally somebody got it right. The dogs are the property of the owner, not the property of the public and any law that interferes with property when that property is not injuring or aggressing against another person or that person's property is an invalid law.

Property rights, people. Property rights.

That's ridiculous. Property rights are subject to regulation. For instance, go up to a police officer in most states and ask where you can bet your house on a football game.

 

[Festus]

"I'm extremely disappointed and embarrassed for Clinton Portis," Goodell said in a written statement following a one-day NFL owners' meeting. "This does not reflect the sentiments of the Redskins, the NFL or NFL players."

Isn't Clinton Portis an NFL player?Portis got it right, finally somebody got it right. The dogs are the property of the owner, not the property of the public and any law that interferes with property when that property is not injuring or aggressing against another person or that person's property is an invalid law.

Property rights, people. Property rights.

That's ridiculous. Property rights are subject to regulation. For instance, go up to a police officer in most states and ask where you can bet your house on a football game.

I can agree that property rights can be subject to regulation, the problem is that when I use my property in a manner that doesn't aggress against you, your property or anybody's person or property, then regulation is not needed.Dog fighting does not aggress against you or your property. Gambling my house away doesn't aggress against you or your property. Target shooting at your house aggresses against your property and quite possibly you if your home.

Why is dog fighting illegal?

 

[Stealthycat]

Festus, you Constituionalist you !

Property rights are a shell of what they were 180 years ago - sorry buddy, you aint living in Colonial Times or the Wild Wild West.

You break the laws that have been established, expect to be punished.

You break the laws that have been established that hit to the emotions of the general public ? You've just smaked a hornets nest with a ball bat, and it aint going away.

Argue "property" rights all you want, but it won't make a difference. If Vick was involved, he WILL fry for this, and he should

 

[Tillmanisahero]

Lastly, if any of you knew anything about the sport of dog fighting, you would know that the true professionals do not put their dogs on steroids or feed them gunpowder, a great majority of the fights are not to the death (who wants to lose thousands in the investment of breeding and raising) and the dogs are matched by weight and breed. Ya'll need to stop believing everything that the HSUS and PeTA feed to you as both those groups are rabid animal rights organizations who would rather see an end to all hunting, fishing, trapping, meat-eating, medical experimentation, pet ownership and fully support the extinction of the domestic cat and dog.And finally, why are you so concerned over how somebody treats their property? Next it may be your animal that is targetted.

Wow are you part of the Vick spin team.... Your old time romantic BS of Dog Fighting might work on people who live in the old south and buy into that "Gentleman" sport crap but anyone who has done rescue for Pit Bull organization will have a 1000 stories on the brutality and complete horror that these "Dogmen" put their animals and children through. First of all dogfighting is abuse, to train and encourage a dog to rip the flesh from another dog is wrong. Do not attach yourself to fishing and normal hunting because that is also BS spin. Next thing you be doing is saying dogfighters just want their civil rights You say a great majority of the fights are not to the death...Bull (if they don't die right there many die later) Also losers are often killed (Culled). Not only do many dogs die but are crippled physically and mentally from dog fighting. I wish I had a dollar for ever dog we had to amputate the leg off of after a raid on a dog fighting ring or sow up a flap of skin the size of my hand on the dog face or neck.There are also studies that show the children of these dogfighter who witness cruelty (and yes social service has accompanied us on raids) have some of the same problems as children who witness domestic abuse.I will agree with one thing you say...PETA is full of ####, because believe it or not they want Pit Bulls banned and they fail to realize it is the "F"ing dogfighters not the dogs. Pit Bulls are great animals and they are just exploited by Puke Bags. They make wonderful pets when raised in a compassionate and caring home. HSUS is not PETA and trying to compare the two I believe is just more spin.Your last statement about "other peoples property" and "Your animal targeted next". Well if you humanely treat your "animal" you won't have to worry. It is only the abusive who need worry. I realize the fear mongering tactic is popular these days but leave it out as an excuse to allow people to abuse animals.Are you one of those parents who say " It my Kid and I can do with my kid as I want!" and then can't understand when the police arrest you for keep your kid locked in the closest?Dog fighters are cowards who what to be tough vicariously through their dogs. They want the thrill of combat with out the pain or physical training. If Vick is guilty (and I strongly believe he is) He should be put in jail for a very long time!On other thing to mention about dog fighters.....Many dogfights are a hub for other illegal activity like drug, weapons, human slave trade etc... mainly because the people at these event have zero morality.

 

[Tillmanisahero]

Festus, you Constituionalist you ! Property rights are a shell of what they were 180 years ago - sorry buddy, you aint living in Colonial Times or the Wild Wild West.

Master Stealthycat....you sure got a good point there....180 years ago a good ol'boy could just own himself a couple of good slaves and now that damn government won't let you anymore!

 

[Tillmanisahero]

Why is dog fighting illegal?

Hey Clinton...how are you feeling? Do you think you can keep Betts on the bench this year?Maybe dog fighting is illegal because it is abusive to an animal that worships the ground we walk on and has been our closest companion through our human history.

I will share a quote ..

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated”-- Mahatma Gandhi

 

[Fla\/\/ed]

"I'm extremely disappointed and embarrassed for Clinton Portis," Goodell said in a written statement following a one-day NFL owners' meeting. "This does not reflect the sentiments of the Redskins, the NFL or NFL players."

Isn't Clinton Portis an NFL player?Portis got it right, finally somebody got it right. The dogs are the property of the owner, not the property of the public and any law that interferes with property when that property is not injuring or aggressing against another person or that person's property is an invalid law.

Property rights, people. Property rights.

This ranks as one of the top 5 most ignorant posts made in the history of this site.

 

[yellowdog]

"I'm extremely disappointed and embarrassed for Clinton Portis," Goodell said in a written statement following a one-day NFL owners' meeting. "This does not reflect the sentiments of the Redskins, the NFL or NFL players."

Isn't Clinton Portis an NFL player?Portis got it right, finally somebody got it right. The dogs are the property of the owner, not the property of the public and any law that interferes with property when that property is not injuring or aggressing against another person or that person's property is an invalid law.

Property rights, people. Property rights.

Friday fishing trips belong in the FFA. Mods, please move to the appropriate forum.

 

[aardball44]

"I'm extremely disappointed and embarrassed for Clinton Portis," Goodell said in a written statement following a one-day NFL owners' meeting. "This does not reflect the sentiments of the Redskins, the NFL or NFL players."

Isn't Clinton Portis an NFL player?Portis got it right, finally somebody got it right. The dogs are the property of the owner, not the property of the public and any law that interferes with property when that property is not injuring or aggressing against another person or that person's property is an invalid law.

Property rights, people. Property rights.

Friday fishing trips belong in the FFA. Mods, please move to the appropriate forum.

I have a feeling Festus believes every word he wrote here. He appears to be familiar with the mindset of those who would pit their dogs against other dogs, or attend a dogfight. He's versed in the arguments defending it as a sport/pastime. He may have friends or relatives who engage in it. Who really knows why he's defending it so vigorously?Once NBC's Dateline has tired of rounding up child predators they might consider focusing their attention and cameras on dog fighting. The more I learn about it the more I'm appalled.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Ever see Pits roll, Festus?

Yep. Should that be of concern to me and my property?

Ever match your own dog?

Why would I?

Why not? Your property after all.

True, yet I never desired to partake of that activity.

I'm not trying to pin you down. I'm curious. Mostly, I think more people need to understand the big picture. Tillmanisahero sure does.

I do happen to know... ugh...way more about dogfighting than I care to know. My hs sweetheart's family were the local "breeders" and had "shows" every couple months. Hobbysists, is how they would classify. I have seen more than a few "yard accidents." I've seen them professionally matched and rolled. I've seen all the prep and pomp and circumstance. I still have the cajun rules pretty much memorized.

The bloodsport itself is sick enough, but the associated problems make outlawing and prosecuting it an absolute necessity. I love the dogs. I am no animal rights activist, but I think we've farked this breed beyond redemption, and I agree a common Pit is far more dangerous than a game bred dog. But society can't absorb that rationally and the far greater percentage of these dogs are more dangerous common Pits. Their wiring is farked. It is much more serious than blaming the deed and not the breed. The breed is messed up and now fully wired to attack humans. Bad owners are a problem, but so is the dog's wiring.

Btw, plenty of the old dog men kept dogs that attacked humans. The argument that they immediately put them down because they simply couldn't risk it is a little off. They did try to avoid breeding a dog that would bite people, but if they had a nasty dead game talent who had control issues, they'd stick by it if the talent was strong enough or the dog game enough. If it was human aggressive and otherwise not impressive, it was culled. Bullyson is probably the most notorious great pit bull from the ring that bit just about anyone who looked at him funny. His blood is running in the professional game bred world today. There are plenty of others. The defenders of dogfighting are developing this "we killed all the human aggression out of the breed bs" as a defense that's ridiculous nonsense because too many Pits are attacking humans. So I no longer care what they did or what they claim. It's probably true they killed most of their manbiters out of self-preservation up until the 70s, but there's been no control since then. None. Not since the dog became a protection animal.

Since you're playing condescending know-it-all, I was taught to never stick the dog in the roof of his mouth with the break stic as you describe it's function. The correct method is to mount the dog and pin his rear legs with your body weight.. Then control the animal by partially lifting him away from the other (by the scruff) and insert the break stick behind his last molar where the gums show a gap to the inside of the mouth. Then just twist like the throttle on a motorcycle. The flat narrow side turns wide with lots of leverage and pops the mouth right open. Hopefully you're lifting him enough to lift him away clean before he takes another hold. It's an operation not for the feint of heart.

That was 27 years ago, but I never abandonded the topic, because I was a stupid kid who thought this world was "badass" and cool, but soon learned that it was depraved, sadistic, very stupid, and illegal for good reason.

 

[Tillmanisahero]

Once NBC's Dateline has tired of rounding up child predators they might consider focusing their attention and cameras on dog fighting.

Great idea....I would love to see it....even though it would be very difficult to pull of.

 

[Guapote]

I will agree with one thing you say...PETA is full of ####, because believe it or not they want Pit Bulls banned and they fail to realize it is the "F"ing dogfighters not the dogs. Pit Bulls are great animals and they are just exploited by Puke Bags. They make wonderful pets when raised in a compassionate and caring home. HSUS is not PETA and trying to compare the two I believe is just more spin.

Can't say I have a lot to add to this. If Vick is really involved, he should punished to full extent of the law. Sounds like there's other folks in this thread with way more experience with pits than I have, so I'll defer to their opinions on the dogs.Regarding PETA and HSUS; I'm completely opposed to animal rights (which is not the same as animal welfare), and have absolutely no respect for any of the folks involved in PETA or HSUS. Dog fighting is one of the only items where I have common ground with them. I just wanted to mention that comparing HSUS and PETA is not spin, it's pretty dead on. HSUS has better PR, but their agenda is essentially the same. Your local humane society has nothing to do with HSUS, they don't run shelters, and they don't funnel any of their millions to your local shelters. Sorry to clutter the Shark Pool with this, just have a hard time letting that pass.

 

[perry147]

I will agree with one thing you say...PETA is full of ####, because believe it or not they want Pit Bulls banned and they fail to realize it is the "F"ing dogfighters not the dogs. Pit Bulls are great animals and they are just exploited by Puke Bags. They make wonderful pets when raised in a compassionate and caring home. HSUS is not PETA and trying to compare the two I believe is just more spin.

Can't say I have a lot to add to this. If Vick is really involved, he should punished to full extent of the law. Sounds like there's other folks in this thread with way more experience with pits than I have, so I'll defer to their opinions on the dogs.Regarding PETA and HSUS; I'm completely opposed to animal rights (which is not the same as animal welfare), and have absolutely no respect for any of the folks involved in PETA or HSUS. Dog fighting is one of the only items where I have common ground with them. I just wanted to mention that comparing HSUS and PETA is not spin, it's pretty dead on. HSUS has better PR, but their agenda is essentially the same. Your local humane society has nothing to do with HSUS, they don't run shelters, and they don't funnel any of their millions to your local shelters. Sorry to clutter the Shark Pool with this, just have a hard time letting that pass.

Not sure if I understand the difference between animal right and animal welfare - can you elaborate?

 

[Guapote]

I will agree with one thing you say...PETA is full of ####, because believe it or not they want Pit Bulls banned and they fail to realize it is the "F"ing dogfighters not the dogs. Pit Bulls are great animals and they are just exploited by Puke Bags. They make wonderful pets when raised in a compassionate and caring home. HSUS is not PETA and trying to compare the two I believe is just more spin.

Can't say I have a lot to add to this. If Vick is really involved, he should punished to full extent of the law. Sounds like there's other folks in this thread with way more experience with pits than I have, so I'll defer to their opinions on the dogs.Regarding PETA and HSUS; I'm completely opposed to animal rights (which is not the same as animal welfare), and have absolutely no respect for any of the folks involved in PETA or HSUS. Dog fighting is one of the only items where I have common ground with them. I just wanted to mention that comparing HSUS and PETA is not spin, it's pretty dead on. HSUS has better PR, but their agenda is essentially the same. Your local humane society has nothing to do with HSUS, they don't run shelters, and they don't funnel any of their millions to your local shelters. Sorry to clutter the Shark Pool with this, just have a hard time letting that pass.

Not sure if I understand the difference between animal right and animal welfare - can you elaborate?

Probably better topic for the FFA, and something that'll require some time for a well thought out response. If I get a chance to address this in depth I'll post a link.In brief, with rights come responsibilities. It's not reasonable to expect animals to live with responsibilities. Animal welfare is in line with the idea that those of us who own animals have an obligation to treat them fairly. Belief in animal welfare is consistent with use of animals in agriculture, research, etc. Not so much with animal rights.

Wish I had more time to address this, but I have animals that I have to take care.

 

[chris1969]

So, I ask. Where are the drugs that were supposedly injected into these dogs? Maybe some of ya'll didn't know this....

The purchasing of the syringes could very easily be used to dispense medication. I myself have purchased syringes w/needles, equine pyrantel paste (strongid), vaccinations and other medications such as ivermectin.

Ivermectin is a wonder drug. It listed as a tick and mite paraticide for cattle. But it has so many other uses in dogs.

Ivermectin is the active ingredient in Heartguard, a heartworm preventative. You know, that box you purchase from the vet that runs about $50 bucks (probably more) and lasts 6 months. A 50 ml vial of Ivermectin can last you years with one or two dogs. With a whole kennel of dogs the price at $50-$60 for a vial can't be beat. Virginia is an east coast state and it is laden with heartworms. One of the highest in the nation.

Ivermectin is used in the treatment of sarcoptic and demodectic mange. Demodectic mange is also called "puppy mange" and it derives from mite that all dogs carry. Most vets prescribe a dip that costs a good bit of money, but Ivermectin works just as well and it's a heck of a lot cheaper.

Note: Do not give ivermectin to any collie type breeds. They are extremely sensitive to it and it can prove fatal.

Ivermectin

Have any of you considered that kennel is providing it's own vaccinations? I do it with my animals and it's so much cheaper than paying a $30 walk through the door charge at my vets not to mention the $15-$25 for the vaccination itself. I can run down to the feed mill and pick up some DA2 for $5 bucks a dose.

Pit bulls, while they generally are people friendly dogs have a propensity to be aggressive towards other animals to include other dogs. It would make common sense to me that if a pit bull ever escaped from it's pen that a break stick would be handy. While their jaws do not lock per se, they do have extremely powerful jaws that a normal person would be unable to break apart once latched onto the neck of another dog. The pit bulls pain tolerance is incredible. The break stick is ran in between the jaws and the stick has a point on one end, this point is then pressed against the roof of the mouth and that will get through to the dog to lessen or break it's grip. It's quite possible that is the purpose of the people possessing the stick in the first place. Why lose money over a dead dog when you can break up the attack if one were to occur?

As an aside, I'll trust a fighting pit bull over a common pit bull pet any day of the week. A professional fighter will put down any pit bull that displays aggression towards a human.

Break Stick

If I raised pit bulls for a living you can bet that I would have a treadmill on my property. When a person looks for a pit bull they look for a well-muscled dog. When a dog is confined to a kennel they tend to lose muscle tone and the treadmill will provide a hard work out for a dog in a short period of time. Some people who use their dogs in pull contests will use a treadmill for training purposes.

From what I've read, only one of the sixty some dogs on the property displayed scars consistent with dog fighting. Heck, I had a Dogo Argentino for 10 years and he was a catch dog for wild boars. Even when wearing the guantlets, the pigs would still sometimes get to him and I carried a full medical bag with lidocaine, ketamine, xylazine, Monoject syringes, sutures and all manner of hemostats and scissors. I sewed up my dog and my fellow hunters dogs in the field. My dog would've qualified as a "fighting dog" as his scars were consistent with dog fighting. Scars to the head, neck and shoulders.

Dogo Argentino

Lastly, if any of you knew anything about the sport of dog fighting, you would know that the true professionals do not put their dogs on steroids or feed them gunpowder, a great majority of the fights are not to the death (who wants to lose thousands in the investment of breeding and raising) and the dogs are matched by weight and breed. Ya'll need to stop believing everything that the HSUS and PeTA feed to you as both those groups are rabid animal rights organizations who would rather see an end to all hunting, fishing, trapping, meat-eating, medical experimentation, pet ownership and fully support the extinction of the domestic cat and dog.

And finally, why are you so concerned over how somebody treats their property? Next it may be your animal that is targetted.

"I'm extremely disappointed and embarrassed for Clinton Portis," Goodell said in a written statement following a one-day NFL owners' meeting. "This does not reflect the sentiments of the Redskins, the NFL or NFL players."

Isn't Clinton Portis an NFL player?Portis got it right, finally somebody got it right. The dogs are the property of the owner, not the property of the public and any law that interferes with property when that property is not injuring or aggressing against another person or that person's property is an invalid law.

Property rights, people. Property rights.

Wow I see the tool factor increasing every second in this thread. Anyone that views abusing an animal as "OK, because it's my property." Follows the same logic that the slave holders used. Anybody that calls fighting another animal a sport doesn't know what a sport is. Climb your own happy ### into the ring to get beaten senseless is a sport. Making your dog do it for you is just plain sorry. I agree that PETA and a lot of the other animal rights groups do go overboard, but your part of the reason. And as far as your references to a victimless crime, when Porter's dogs got out and killed a pony was it victimless? Would their be any doubt about any dog trained to kill is gonna do anything but kill if he gets loose? Thousands of kids get mauled or killed every year because of your sport. Your dogs eventually get out and do damage. People that own the same breed of dog can't even get home owner's insurance because of your sport. Towns have banned your breed of dog because of your sport. Don't even try to pretend that your not hurting anyone, because anyone with half a brain knows that's not true.

 

[Big Score]

Wow, so looks like not only do they have no evidence to charge Vick, but they don't even have evidence to charge anyone with dog fighting.

It's far from over. NFL security is now on the scene. NFL security is composed of ex-FBI/CIA agents.Pay careful attention to this part:

Poindexter has said there was evidence of dogfighting in a two-story house on the property...but there might not be enough to file charges at this point. Poindexter emphasized that the investigation is far from over.

Eyewitness testimony has not been needed to gain convictions in dogfighting cases, but "it would help" in this investigation, Poindexter said.

As the initial evidence gathered, was obviously not enough to where Poindexter felt comfortable in bringing charges, let alone confident in getting a conviction, I would say the eye witness testimony would do quite a bit more than just "help" in this particular case.It's great that the NFL's security team is offering assistance in this case, but I don't think the NFL security, (regardless of them being ex-FBI/CIA agents, or not) has the power to grant immunity to potential witnesses & that's what's needed here.

Now as to bringing Vick up on felony charges...that will stick!

From what I've read, authorities have to be able to prove that Vick physically attended organized dog fights. Better yet, prove he was one of the actual handlers initiating a dog fight.

So, the Feds need to bring pressure on the person who told Kathy Strouse (a member of the Virginia Animal Fighting Task Force who has helped in the investigation) that there were tapes physically showing Vick at dog fights. First find out if those tapes really exist & then if they do, go get them.

Next, the Feds need to bring in the person, who in Kathy Strouse's own words, “will place him at these dog fights, yes,” (referringing to Vick), offer immunity and get this persons eye witness testimony which physically places Vick at dog fights.

Next, the Feds should get the other witnesses that Strouse has mentioned, "Strouse said she has also talked with individuals who can "put Vick on that property" during matches." and again grant immunity in exchange for their testimony.

As long as this member of the Virginia Animal Fighting Task Force cooperates with the Feds in providing the names of the witnesses & the lead on the tapes (why wouldn't she?), this will be more than enough evidence for Poindexter to have an air tight case against Vick.

Vick will be neatly gift wrapped, ready for charging, conviction & sentencing.

 

[3C's]

Poindexter is not going to let the Feds or the state AG take over the case...so it's over.

 

[bcr8f]

Regarding PETA and HSUS; I'm completely opposed to animal rights (which is not the same as animal welfare), and have absolutely no respect for any of the folks involved in PETA or HSUS.

I'm not. You mentioned 2 very extreme animal rights organizations. There are far more and to say animals rights and Peta in the same sentence links them. They should not be linked.

 

[Big Score]

Poindexter is not going to let the Feds or the state AG take over the case...so it's over.

Surry County Sheriff Harold Brown confirms to 13News that Michael Vick’s name came up in the behind-closed-doors discussion on suspected dog fighting at Vick's now former home in Surry County.

Brown also confirmed that, after reviewing the evidence gathered so far, Vick has not been cleared but that also Vick has not been charged.

Meantime, Brown announced that federal authorites are now involved in the investigation and that he expects charges to be filed in a matter of weeks, but he would not say against whom.

www.wvec.com

 

[fatness]

ESPN

The prosecutor in the investigation of a possible dog fighting operation at a house owned by Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick is confident charges will be brought. He can't yet say who will be charged. "We are moving forward," Surry County Commonwealth attorney Gerald Poindexter said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press on Friday. He declined to set a timetable for when evidence in the case would be ready to present to a grand jury.

Police raided the home as part of a drug investigation on April 25. They seized 66 dogs, 55 of them pit bulls, and equipment that could be associated with dog fighting.

The investigation is focused on dog fighting because while some equipment seized could be typical of a legitimate breeding operation, which Vick is registered to have, there also was a "pry bar" used to pry apart a dog's jaws, and bloodstained carpeting. The bloodied carpet was seized during the raid, and Poindexter said he saw what appeared to be blood spatters on the floor of a room inside the home above the garage.

"The floor was not drenched in blood, but there were specks that appeared to me to be blood," he said.

Since the raid, Poindexter said, erroneous reports have surfaced that the dogs were malnourished and that many had scarring and injuries consistent with dog fighting. The dogs, he said, appeared largely to have been well cared for, and the only one that required immediate veterinary care had a broken leg because of a birth defect.

He said there has been difficulty finding someone who specializes in canine forensics, and an absence of eyewitnesses who can confirm that dog fighting took place on the property.

sports commentary

Isn't it really the media that has been acting like a pack of rabid dogs chasing around Michael Vick?

 

[3C's]

Poindexter is not going to let the Feds or the state AG take over the case...so it's over.

Surry County Sheriff Harold Brown confirms to 13News that Michael Vick’s name came up in the behind-closed-doors discussion on suspected dog fighting at Vick's now former home in Surry County.

Brown also confirmed that, after reviewing the evidence gathered so far, Vick has not been cleared but that also Vick has not been charged.

Meantime, Brown announced that federal authorites are now involved in the investigation and that he expects charges to be filed in a matter of weeks, but he would not say against whom.

www.wvec.com

A little bit of sarcasm. link

"No, we're not giving the case to the attorney general," Commonwealth's Attorney Gerald G. Poindexter said, denying the rumors. "No, we're not giving the case to the feds."

But, it is "moving forward"

"...confident charges will be brought. He can't yet say who will be charged."

 

[Pictus Cat]

You are responsible for the damage your animal does.

Your intentions and actions are mitigating or aggrevating factors.

I beleive Vick intentionally caused the damage to animals and he is bad for the NFL.

Training an animal to cause this damage for entertainment is cruel.

How many dogs are used up to find a good fighter?

This will haunt Vick more than Mexico.

 

[TheLastDispatch]

This'll probably be resolved by the time my draft rolls around in late August, but I'm staying far far away from Vick, as I'm sure most others are.

 

[Pygmy Marmoset]

"I'm extremely disappointed and embarrassed for Clinton Portis," Goodell said in a written statement following a one-day NFL owners' meeting. "This does not reflect the sentiments of the Redskins, the NFL or NFL players."

Isn't Clinton Portis an NFL player?Portis got it right, finally somebody got it right. The dogs are the property of the owner, not the property of the public and any law that interferes with property when that property is not injuring or aggressing against another person or that person's property is an invalid law.

Property rights, people. Property rights.

That's ridiculous. Property rights are subject to regulation. For instance, go up to a police officer in most states and ask where you can bet your house on a football game.

I can agree that property rights can be subject to regulation, the problem is that when I use my property in a manner that doesn't aggress against you, your property or anybody's person or property, then regulation is not needed.Dog fighting does not aggress against you or your property. Gambling my house away doesn't aggress against you or your property. Target shooting at your house aggresses against your property and quite possibly you if your home.

Why is dog fighting illegal?

Society has a vested interest in keeping things like dog fighting regulated because of the secondary effects of things like dog fighting. Much like gambling, drugs, prostitution, and a host of other things. In a vaccuum, these things aren't messing with me or my property, but we don't live in a vaccuum.

 

[Big Score]

He said (Surry County Commonwealth attorney Gerald Poindexter) there has been difficulty finding someone who specializes in canine forensics, and an absence of eyewitnesses who can confirm that dog fighting took place on the property.

The informant “will place him at these dog fights, yes,” said Kathy Strouse, a member of the Virginia Animal Fighting Task Force who has helped in the investigation

Strouse said she has also talked with individuals who can "put Vick on that property" during matches.

Somebody is speaking out of their butt.

 

[3C's]

He said (Surry County Commonwealth attorney Gerald Poindexter) there has been difficulty finding someone who specializes in canine forensics, and an absence of eyewitnesses who can confirm that dog fighting took place on the property.

The informant “will place him at these dog fights, yes,” said Kathy Strouse, a member of the Virginia Animal Fighting Task Force who has helped in the investigation

Strouse said she has also talked with individuals who can "put Vick on that property" during matches.

Somebody is speaking out of their butt.

Probably the overzealous investigator, but hopefully it's just her talking too much and Poindexter is keeping his mouth shut (a little) to avoid "trying the case in the media."

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

I've only read Page 10 of this mega-thread, but is there any football-related commentary to be found here?

 

[3C's]

I've only read Page 10 of this mega-thread, but is there any football-related commentary to be found here?

Vick might miss a game or two. Or he might not. Adjust your cheatsheets accordingly.

 

[hutchins929]

You know that it is proven that most serial killers torture animals before they move on to people! I say just fry him now.

 

[Ned]

not many things get to me but seeing all of these videos of dog fighting is making me sick. i hope for vick's case he's not involved.

 

[bcr8f]

not many things get to me but seeing all of these videos of dog fighting is making me sick. i hope for vick's case he's not involved.

Me too. Anyone doing it professionally will take care of their dogs.Outside the Lines story

 

[bcr8f]

I've only read Page 10 of this mega-thread, but is there any football-related commentary to be found here?

You mean like bump Joey Harrington?

 

[Big Score]

Posting a bit from bcr8f's link.

Here's an eye witness placing Vick at dog fights that the Feds can use...

Our confidential source says he's been involved in dog fighting for over 30 years. He's trained and fought -- by his estimation -- around 2,000 pit bulls and was poised to tell "Outside the Lines" about the time in 2000 when his dog squared off against a dog owned by someone he referred to as one of the "heavyweights" of the dog fighting world: Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick.

"He's a pit bull fighter," the source says of Vick. "He's one of the ones that they call 'the big boys:' that's who bets a large dollar. And they have the money to bet large money. As I'm talking about large money -- $30,000 to $40,000 -- even higher. He's one of the heavyweights."

This source -- who required anonymity as a condition of our interview -- has helped law enforcement by supplying information on dog fights that has led to dozens of felony arrests.

"I've fought dogs, I pitted them, I bred them and I've done everything with them," says the source of his three decades in dog fighting. He then went on to describe the scene from that night seven years ago, as he took his 42-pound dog into the pit (the area where dogs fight) to face off against Vick's dog. He says Vick did not get into the pit, but had a member of his entourage handle his dog, while Vick placed bets with the 20 or so people in attendance.

While the source says he doesn't know how much Vick bet that night, he does recall the matches' outcome: Vicks' dog lost. He says Vick is known in the dog fighting community as "the man that comes with all the money" and his reputation is "[that] he brings a good dog and he's going to bet and he's going bring a nice sum of cash."

While the NFL continues to monitor the Vick investigation, there's another group closely monitoring it as well … but for a different reason.

"Everybody in the dog world is worried about Michael Vick talking," the source added, shortly before leaving our interview room and heading back to work. "Michael Vick is making large money, he's making millions, OK? And if he has to tell on some people [to avoid prison time], I think he would tell … I don't put nothing past him."

ESPN

 

[3C's]

"I don't put nothing past him."

Me neither. [Former Vick defender]

 

[Loomba]

I've only read Page 10 of this mega-thread, but is there any football-related commentary to be found here?

Vick might miss a game or two. Or he might not. Adjust your cheatsheets accordingly.

There's just seems to be way too many anecdotal bits floating around from many different sources about Vick's involvement. With all this smoke billowing, I think it is a matter of time before they gather enough evidence to charge Vick. If that turns out to be the case, it won't be a game or two. Vick would miss a LOT of time. Goodell is going to come down hard on this one if it's true. 8 games would be the absolute minimum in my mind, but expect it to be greater given the horrendous publicity this is bringing to the league. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Falcons cut ties too.And I hope Vick's not involved but think there's only a 10% chance he is not.

 

[RD1967]

So if Vick gets yanked does Joey Harrington start and suck? Revive his carrier? Or do they get another QB?

Is Joey really any worse than Vick? JH can throw better footballs, but he is a statue back there in the pocket. I dont know if its a big down grade, upgrade or what. I have never been that hot on Vick as a QB in the league, but the dudes got jets.I think the Flipping off fans will/could be a factor when or if the Commish takes any action. All in all I'm always of the opinion that you gotta prove the dude did wrong before you hammer him. I thought the suspension of Henry for eight games was slightly harsh. If it gets his attention then good move. I wont be targetting Vick in any draft this year. If I owned him in a keeper or Dynasty League, I might try to unload him now before any decision or action works its way thru the system.

 

[RD1967]

Poindexter is not going to let the Feds or the state AG take over the case...so it's over.

Surry County Sheriff Harold Brown confirms to 13News that Michael Vick’s name came up in the behind-closed-doors discussion on suspected dog fighting at Vick's now former home in Surry County.

Brown also confirmed that, after reviewing the evidence gathered so far, Vick has not been cleared but that also Vick has not been charged.

Meantime, Brown announced that federal authorites are now involved in the investigation and that he expects charges to be filed in a matter of weeks, but he would not say against whom.

www.wvec.com

The worst thing for all involved would be Brown sweeping this under the Rug. The implications of a Cover up would rock the NFL's reputation. What ever the facts are you can bet the FEDS are going to be involved. It takes just one alligation of interstate transportation of one animal involved in the fighting and its over, the FEDS are in it. With the recent ineptness of the Federal Governments ability to handle the WOT, immigration, drug enforcment etc, it might not be a bad thing for Vick for uncle sam to be involved.

 

[Keith Lewis]

Posting a bit from bcr8f's link.

Here's an eye witness placing Vick at dog fights that the Feds can use...

Our confidential source says he's been involved in dog fighting for over 30 years. He's trained and fought -- by his estimation -- around 2,000 pit bulls and was poised to tell "Outside the Lines" about the time in 2000 when his dog squared off against a dog owned by someone he referred to as one of the "heavyweights" of the dog fighting world: Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick.

"He's a pit bull fighter," the source says of Vick. "He's one of the ones that they call 'the big boys:' that's who bets a large dollar. And they have the money to bet large money. As I'm talking about large money -- $30,000 to $40,000 -- even higher. He's one of the heavyweights."

This source -- who required anonymity as a condition of our interview -- has helped law enforcement by supplying information on dog fights that has led to dozens of felony arrests.

"I've fought dogs, I pitted them, I bred them and I've done everything with them," says the source of his three decades in dog fighting. He then went on to describe the scene from that night seven years ago, as he took his 42-pound dog into the pit (the area where dogs fight) to face off against Vick's dog. He says Vick did not get into the pit, but had a member of his entourage handle his dog, while Vick placed bets with the 20 or so people in attendance.

While the source says he doesn't know how much Vick bet that night, he does recall the matches' outcome: Vicks' dog lost. He says Vick is known in the dog fighting community as "the man that comes with all the money" and his reputation is "[that] he brings a good dog and he's going to bet and he's going bring a nice sum of cash."

While the NFL continues to monitor the Vick investigation, there's another group closely monitoring it as well … but for a different reason.

"Everybody in the dog world is worried about Michael Vick talking," the source added, shortly before leaving our interview room and heading back to work. "Michael Vick is making large money, he's making millions, OK? And if he has to tell on some people [to avoid prison time], I think he would tell … I don't put nothing past him."

ESPN

Vick was still in college at the time, he was throwing down 30-40K on a fight? VT must have been paying him real good, how does a 19 year old have 30-40K to lay down on fights? Also this "source" sounds like a major scumbag.

 

[3C's]

The date (year) does sound a little strange, but it wouldn't be a total shock to hear that someone fronted him a lot of money. There's allegations of that happening all the time.