Keeper League Rule Q (1 Viewer)

[DisneyLAN]

Second year of 3-player (2 offense, 1 defense) keeper league. Officially writing the rules with a lot of help from another thread on this board. This question occurred to me when trying to determine who to keep out of AP, Bjax, Chris Johnson, Calvin Johnson, RoddyW, etc.

My rules (yet to be posted on our league website) were going to allow trading future draft picks if the draft picker owner had prepaid half of the season in question. I did not differentiate between in-season and out-of-season trades.

This being the case, should I be allowed to trade (say...Chris Johnson) to a team that doesn't have a stud RB prior to our keeper selection? I would obtain a round 1 or 2 draft pick while keeping my 3 top players. He would then name ChrisJ as one of his 3 keepers?

I know the purpose of only keeping 3 players is so that stacked teams come down a notch and bad teams have ability to pick up top players, but does my ability to trade out players prior to the keeper proclamation defeat that purpose?

How is this handled in your leagues? Now is the time for me to decide if this situation requires its own bullet in the rules.

Thanks for any input.

 

[mggoilers]

Here are my trading rules in our Keeper.

TRADES

Trades will be $2 per team year round.

Trades will not be voted on by league members. Trades can be protested/questioned through the league message board.

Trades will then be reviewed by the Commissioner. Trades will be processed by Commissioner.

Offseason trades can be made after the NFL Pro Bowl until draft day. Trades are allowed between August 19st keeper deadline and draft day, anything goes. Each team's 4 man roster plus draft spots will be treated like your regular season roster. You are free to manage them however you wish.

For example,

Between August 21st and draft day, you could feasibly go into draft day with 4 players and 4 extra draft picks, or extra players and less draft picks.

Trades will be allowed up until 1 p.m. on draft day.

Regular Season trade deadline will be week 11 of the regular season.

A trade is not official until the commish can click "Accept" or "Veto" on the league website.

Future draft pick(s) may be traded. We will require a ZERO Balance in the current year. We then require the league deposit ($25)to be paid for the next year (the year of the pick). So trading 2009 picks in 2008 requires the current 2008 league costs be paid at the time of the trade by both parties. We will also require the $25 deposit be paid for 2009. There will be no negotiating this rule. Payment must be received from both teams for the "Accept" button to be clicked by the commissioner. NO EXCEPTIONS, IOU's, Checks in the mail, etc.

***This is to stop a team from giving away his future picks, and then leaving the league. Most new owners coming into the league would be reluctant to have to pay full price for a team that doesn't even have its regular allotment of picks.

 

[Buffaloes]

Any teams that trade keepers in our league must declare the keeper prior to trading. Your trade would not be allowed under this rule as you have 3 keepers and the rest of your team=free agents. So if you wanted to trade CJ, you would have to declare him as a keeper and then you would be compensated a draft pick and you would get to keep 2 keepers since you traded CJ (your third keeper) away already. This prevents teams from essentially trading a free agent for a draft pick. Hope that makes sense.

 

[iSnitch]

Don't allow it, otherwise you'll have people cheating the system.

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

I don't see any issue in trading excess players for draft picks prior to declaring keepers. My keeper leagues do this all the time.

It benefits both teams - Team A is rewarded with receiving value for superior drafting in the past. Team B ensures himself a keeper-worthy player without risking another team drafting said player, and probably gets him at a market discount since Team A can't keep the player anyway. It's a win-win.

 

[iSnitch]

It gives the elite teams that much more of an advantage...if your league is fine with that then go nuts. Giving a stacked team even more draft picks will further the gap between the owners.

 

[iSnitch]

Any teams that trade keepers in our league must declare the keeper prior to trading. Your trade would not be allowed under this rule as you have 3 keepers and the rest of your team=free agents. So if you wanted to trade CJ, you would have to declare him as a keeper and then you would be compensated a draft pick and you would get to keep 2 keepers since you traded CJ (your third keeper) away already. This prevents teams from essentially getting a free agent for a draft pick. Hope that makes sense.

This is the only way it can work imo.

 

[ratbast]

Why would you penalize a team for having extra keepers to trade and why wouldn't you let someone buy a player for a draft pick?

Open season on trades in both my leagues in the off season. Trades in one league are always free and the other is free only in off season.

Bottom line is if your keeper league is solid there should be no restrictions until trading deadline. IMHO of course.

 

[senor peso 2006]

Any teams that trade keepers in our league must declare the keeper prior to trading. Your trade would not be allowed under this rule as you have 3 keepers and the rest of your team=free agents. So if you wanted to trade CJ, you would have to declare him as a keeper and then you would be compensated a draft pick and you would get to keep 2 keepers since you traded CJ (your third keeper) away already. This prevents teams from essentially trading a free agent for a draft pick. Hope that makes sense.

I have the same idea but with a different perspective. I run a keep up to 4 that allows trades for picks but it can't be for a pick in the first 4 rounds. The idea is that everyone has 4 keepers after the draft. If someone want to trade CJ they could move him for a 5th round pick.

 

[iSnitch]

Why would you penalize a team for having extra keepers to trade and why wouldn't you let someone buy a player for a draft pick? Open season on trades in both my leagues in the off season. Trades in one league are always free and the other is free only in off season.Bottom line is if your keeper league is solid there should be no restrictions until trading deadline. IMHO of course.

The elite teams will end up with incredibly stacked teams year in and year out...the competitive balance will be destroyed.Team A might pick up a player for cheap, but the team trading away the stud will stock up on draft picks, so in addition to having studs to begin with, they're now armed with however many extra draft picks. Things can get ugly and unbalance awfully quick. Again, if that's something everyone is aware of and okay with then go for it. But you need to know that setting things up otherwise it will cause problems within the league down the road.

 

[jeremyx13]

Our league rule is that you can only keep players that you drafted personally (also you move up 2 rds the next season and can only keep a player for 3 seasons total), therefore if you trade a player to another team they cannot keep him. That way if you have good drafts you benefit directly, just not indirectly by shipping extra players off to sucky teams.

 

[Instinctive]

Why would you penalize a team for having extra keepers to trade and why wouldn't you let someone buy a player for a draft pick? Open season on trades in both my leagues in the off season. Trades in one league are always free and the other is free only in off season.Bottom line is if your keeper league is solid there should be no restrictions until trading deadline. IMHO of course.

The elite teams will end up with incredibly stacked teams year in and year out...the competitive balance will be destroyed.Team A might pick up a player for cheap, but the team trading away the stud will stock up on draft picks, so in addition to having studs to begin with, they're now armed with however many extra draft picks. Things can get ugly and unbalance awfully quick. Again, if that's something everyone is aware of and okay with then go for it. But you need to know that setting things up otherwise it will cause problems within the league down the road.

Our league allows all trades and trading before keepers are declared...but because of the way a draft works you must have the same # of picks at all times. A trade recently was MJD, 5.04, 3rd 2010 for SJax, 7.05, 1st 2010. See how neither team gained a draft pick? You should allow these kinds of trades, even if it means CJ4.24 and 17th round for 1st round pick.

 

[iSnitch]

Why would you penalize a team for having extra keepers to trade and why wouldn't you let someone buy a player for a draft pick? Open season on trades in both my leagues in the off season. Trades in one league are always free and the other is free only in off season.Bottom line is if your keeper league is solid there should be no restrictions until trading deadline. IMHO of course.

The elite teams will end up with incredibly stacked teams year in and year out...the competitive balance will be destroyed.Team A might pick up a player for cheap, but the team trading away the stud will stock up on draft picks, so in addition to having studs to begin with, they're now armed with however many extra draft picks. Things can get ugly and unbalance awfully quick. Again, if that's something everyone is aware of and okay with then go for it. But you need to know that setting things up otherwise it will cause problems within the league down the road.

Our league allows all trades and trading before keepers are declared...but because of the way a draft works you must have the same # of picks at all times. A trade recently was MJD, 5.04, 3rd 2010 for SJax, 7.05, 1st 2010. See how neither team gained a draft pick? You should allow these kinds of trades, even if it means CJ4.24 and 17th round for 1st round pick.

So the team that traded away CJ can get a player of equal caliber...let's just say SJax was not held onto. So instead of holding onto CJ they essentially held onto SJax. The exact player is irrelevant, it's the principal of things. Team A gained a first round talent for a much lower cost than they should have been able. Sure team B picked up CJ with a first round pick, but they didn't get nearly the same value as team A...if team A can do that kind of trade with another team then you'll have a ridiculously loaded opponent.It's a terrible way to do that...sure somebody lost their round 17 round pick but how often do those ever play a role in your season?

 

[ffltq]

If a team has a strong draft he should be given the opportunity to be rewarded, if he wishes, by trading away his quality depth for draft picks. Most leagues are not won or lost by only (3) players, besides the picks dont gaurantee success anyhow. Year in and year out, in most leagues, the teams that put in the effort in the off season have strong drafts. These teams should be able to reap the benefits of their extra work shouldn't they?

 

[Titans_fan]

Why is this any different than trading a player (in this case CJ) for future draft picks during the season? I don't know when your in-season trading deadline is (if you have one), but isn't this essentially the same thing? The only difference is the owner obtaining CJ during the season might get to utilize him that season. If there isn't a trading deadline, what's to stop said team from trading him away just before the last week of the season or just before your fantasy league's championship game?

In my opinion, until you have to declare keepers (at which point all others go back into the player pool) those players are members of the owner's team and can be traded just as if it were the regular season.

 

[DarkManX]

I dont see a problem with it at all. I myself run a keeper and you can trade picks midseason or during the off-season before keepers are finalised. Once keepers are final then no trading is allowed until the draft has been completed. No trades will be vetoed as this league has been running for around 10yrs and we all know nobody is trying to shaft anyone or screw the league.

As long as you trust the guys you are in the league with and know they arent going to call it quits the next yr then its all good in my book. I look at each pick as a player. Technically you are trading a player for another player who has yet to be taken.

 

[Instinctive]

Why would you penalize a team for having extra keepers to trade and why wouldn't you let someone buy a player for a draft pick? Open season on trades in both my leagues in the off season. Trades in one league are always free and the other is free only in off season.Bottom line is if your keeper league is solid there should be no restrictions until trading deadline. IMHO of course.

The elite teams will end up with incredibly stacked teams year in and year out...the competitive balance will be destroyed.Team A might pick up a player for cheap, but the team trading away the stud will stock up on draft picks, so in addition to having studs to begin with, they're now armed with however many extra draft picks. Things can get ugly and unbalance awfully quick. Again, if that's something everyone is aware of and okay with then go for it. But you need to know that setting things up otherwise it will cause problems within the league down the road.

Our league allows all trades and trading before keepers are declared...but because of the way a draft works you must have the same # of picks at all times. A trade recently was MJD, 5.04, 3rd 2010 for SJax, 7.05, 1st 2010. See how neither team gained a draft pick? You should allow these kinds of trades, even if it means CJ4.24 and 17th round for 1st round pick.

So the team that traded away CJ can get a player of equal caliber...let's just say SJax was not held onto. So instead of holding onto CJ they essentially held onto SJax. The exact player is irrelevant, it's the principal of things. Team A gained a first round talent for a much lower cost than they should have been able. Sure team B picked up CJ with a first round pick, but they didn't get nearly the same value as team A...if team A can do that kind of trade with another team then you'll have a ridiculously loaded opponent.It's a terrible way to do that...sure somebody lost their round 17 round pick but how often do those ever play a role in your season?

So why not reward the team that picked 5 keeper worthy players? They don't get to keep those great players like a dynasty, but they also don't have to start completely from scratch. If you do a good job picking players, it is absolutely your right to be rewarded for it.

 

[Pickle Rody]

I think it depends on a lot of the particulars and rules within each league.

My 5-player keeper league does not charge "draft picks" for keepers, nor do we regulate which players are keeper worthy (ie: you must have drafted them.) Each of the 12 teams gets to keep 5 players , no more than 2 per position out of any on their roster. It doesn't matter how they got on their roster. Trading is allowed of any player, anytime. The only time-period trading is not permitted is during each weeks set of games. Trading of this years and next years draft picks is permitted. We encourage weaker teams to go after players on teams which are stacked and unable to protect all of their high value players.

(ETA: To address the possibility of an "un-balanced" league, which was discussed above.)

Of course this trading policy leaves the door open for strong teams to get stronger via any accrued draft picks, but surprisingly this has not really occurred in our league. As an example: Just this past year, the team that perennially has multiple first round picks (acquired by trading studs he has no room to protect) failed to make the playoffs. Also, just last year, a perennial bottom feeder used a trade to bolster his keeper squad just before cut-downs, then proceeded to eat up the league en route to a league best 11-3 regular season record, a week 15 bye, and ultimately a 3rd place finish in the $$$$. This completed one of the best (if not THE best) total team turnaround in our league's history.

My personal feeling is that restricting trading actually hampers and deters the weaker teams from getting better and allows stronger teams to maintain their status-quo.

Another thing I believe is that "keeper" leagues are really just "mini-dynasty" leagues. The whole object is to acquire a strong corp of base players you can keep year-to-year while still having the ability to go out and draft any new rookies coming out (or veterans) who may help you win this year. How an owner actually finally arrives at his 5-player protected roster is his business. Whether by trading stud-for-stud, or trading stud-for-multiple future picks, it makes no difference. No one in our league can complain about being rule restricted and not being afforded the opportunity to improve his team.

 

[DisneyLAN]

Thanks everyone for input. I can see by the split in responses that my trouble in determining whether to limit the trade was for good reason. That is, justification can be made for both cases. As the commissioner and the one with the stacked team, I'll probably cut and paste this discussion (not linking my league mates to the source of all my strategies!) and take a poll. I do reserve final judgement of the rule! You all have made great points. Thanks again.

 

[bcr8f]

Sure why not? Review trades and get next years dues if they trade too may early picks.

I hate too many fantasy fascist controls. Let people trade if they want.

 

[senor peso 2006]

A counter point to the line of thought that "teams should be rewarded for strong drafting" is that they have been already rewarded. If I a team drafts well the odds are that they easily made their playoffs and were probably the favorites to win it all and at worst case they placed in the money (depending on payout structure). Why do they deserve more? If the team is a strong drafter year in and year out, they haven't lost anything because they can do it again. If they were just lucky; why should luck be futher rewarded?

The one thing that stands out the most to me in reading this thread, is that there a many different ways to set up a league and we are all happy with the system that we use. So set your rules and run with it. If you allow trades for picks, great. If you don't, thats fine also. Just be clear with the guidlines and hold to it.

 

[Pickle Rody]

A counter point to the line of thought that "teams should be rewarded for strong drafting" is that they have been already rewarded. If I a team drafts well the odds are that they easily made their playoffs and were probably the favorites to win it all and at worst case they placed in the money (depending on payout structure). Why do they deserve more? If the team is a strong drafter year in and year out, they haven't lost anything because they can do it again. If they were just lucky; why should luck be futher rewarded?

The one thing that stands out the most to me in reading this thread, is that there a many different ways to set up a league and we are all happy with the system that we use. So set your rules and run with it. If you allow trades for picks, great. If you don't, thats fine also. Just be clear with the guidlines and hold to it.

Amen.

 

[AcerFC]

Why is this any different than trading a player (in this case CJ) for future draft picks during the season? I don't know when your in-season trading deadline is (if you have one), but isn't this essentially the same thing? The only difference is the owner obtaining CJ during the season might get to utilize him that season. If there isn't a trading deadline, what's to stop said team from trading him away just before the last week of the season or just before your fantasy league's championship game?In my opinion, until you have to declare keepers (at which point all others go back into the player pool) those players are members of the owner's team and can be traded just as if it were the regular season.

This is how our league looks at it also.We do have some different rules so the only thing that happens is that teams will move up 2-3 rounds in the draftI agree with those saying that until keepers are declared, everyone is still a member of your team and you can do with them what you want

 

[MDPapi]

You've gotten a lot of responses, so I don't know if you need another, but here goes. My league keeps six players per team: 2 offensive, 2 defensive, and 1 rookie each on offense and defense. The rookies can be kept for two years without affecting other keeper rights. We allow trades, for free, at any time except the last few weeks of the season and in the playoffs. And we allow anything to be traded -- players, future draft picks, and even keeper rights. So, we would allow you to trade your 1st round pick to another player for an extra keeper right, for example. You could then keep CJ, too. And no, it doesn't make stacked teams too stacked over long periods. This is the NFL, injuries, free agency, age and the new pool of rookies coming in every year keep good owners in the hunt.

 

[ratbast]

Ultimately my keeper leagues have 95-100% ownership continuity over the years. At that level of dedication, peer pressure makes you play better. Trades arent even monitored. You can do what you want, dig your hole but you will be the brunt of all jokes. You wont leave, because its your best friends, but you will work harder to be better and it will even out at some point. Or you'll just be the worst team in the league. There is always one of you.

In one league we name keepers early (5), in another we name them just prior to drafting (3), but in both we now allow trading during the draft also, and that is great and actually not that hard to perform.

We are cut throat, if you want that then i suggest opening everything wide open. Everyone competes too. No one is ever truly out of it to start the year. Pick values fluctuate at different points in the season and that make for very interesting movement.

 

[super sleeper]

There is no point to having a keeper league if you can't trade for future picks. You might as well redraft. With only 3 keepers, no league will be determined by who you keep, but how you draft, which defeats the point of a keeper. Keeper leagues are supposed to combine the elements of both redraft and dynasty. Taking the offseason trading out defeats that purpose.

If you are afraid that other teams are going to be too strong and upset the competitive balance, you are not a good enough player to be in a keeper. Look for a redraft with a bunch of guppies so you aren't so scared of losing.

 

[iSnitch]

There is no point to having a keeper league if you can't trade for future picks. You might as well redraft. With only 3 keepers, no league will be determined by who you keep, but how you draft, which defeats the point of a keeper. Keeper leagues are supposed to combine the elements of both redraft and dynasty. Taking the offseason trading out defeats that purpose.If you are afraid that other teams are going to be too strong and upset the competitive balance, you are not a good enough player to be in a keeper. Look for a redraft with a bunch of guppies so you aren't so scared of losing.

I'm really tired of these type of posts. However you want to set up a league, have fun. Just be aware of potential problems down the road...there's nothing wrong with either setup, and I've played in both. As has been said by others, as long as you set up the rules and stick to them you should be fine. But this shtick you're sharing is well worn out.

 

[Pictus Cat]

I like the ability to trade for picks for the coming year.

Eventually teams figure out in a 3 keeper, they don't really need to trade a high pick to get a keeper.

They can draft a similar guy in the first round of the draft that is arguably a 3rd rounder without trading that 1st round draft pick.

A couple of second round guys may drop to the 1st round of your draft too.

The market for the best keeper that can't be kept is limited. The early drafters will just draft him. The middle drafters will weigh the keepers they can't keep if they trade and who they will draft in the first round at all. The late drafters probably have good keepers already.

Also, if you are not forced to choose 3 keepers from your roster, but can supplement with a draft (For example: You keep only one and take two from the keepers not kept before the draft starts,) then the player your trying to keep has even less value.

ETA: Picks are sometimes overated in keeper leagues considering the value of the players I mentioned above. The pick is likely to only help you for one season.