Ken Stabler... (1 Viewer)

[Tat]

He has had his fair share of personal problems since football.

He is a known alcoholic and has had a few DUI's in FLorida and Alabama along with possesion of prescription narcotics.

Most recently was charged with owing the Feds around 300k in back taxes.

He is fun to listen to on the radio during Alabama games though.

 

[chuckmorris]

the snake would have had at least 2 more rings if it weren't for the steelers. can he help it he played against one of the best dynasty teams of all time? he deserves to be in if smokin joe is in.

If this were a valid argument (which it isn't) then by that logic Staubach would have had 4 rings, and Stabler still wouldn't stack up well against him. Of course, that would reduce Bradshaw to only 2 rings, giving Stabler and his theoretical 3 rings the edge there. In that case, we wouldn't be thinking of Bradshaw's Steelers as one of the best dynasty teams of all time anyway, and we'd be arguing that if it weren't for the Cowboys, Bradshaw would have had at least 2 more rings. After all, could he help it that he played against Staubach's Cowboys?Chicken ... meet Egg, Egg ... Chicken

Here's what's wrong with this premise.John Madden's Raiders team with Stabler beat every team in the NFL consistantly. Except for Pittsburgh in the playoffs. So Stabler would have had the extra SB rings, and not Staubach. As Dallas NEVER beat Oakland in those days. For the exact same reason Dallas NEVER beat Pittsburgh in those days. Dallas could not hang against the toughest and most physical teams in the league. Dallas besides being "America's Team" back in the day...were also "America's " back in the day. The Dallas D always played tough, but their offense was the biggest bunch of whiners in the NFL at the time.

The other thing wrong with this premise is that Bradshaw's Steelers would not have had two more rings, and it has nothing to do with Staubach's Cowboys, as Dallas could not beat Pittsburgh back in the day. Pittsburgh would have had one more ring had Stabler's Raiders not interrupted their string of 4 Super Bowls back in '76.

There was a great deal wrong with the premise to begin with, which was the point of the post. Once you start down that road of "player x would have been a lock for the HOF except for team y, you can turn a lot of folks into 1st ballot hall of famers who were not. The fact that they weren't able to win those games can't be ignored, and you've got to give props to the teams that beat them. It doesn't make player x any worse, or team y any better, but it does put their abilities into perspective a bit.Personally, I'd have no gripes with Stabler being inducted because he was a heck of a player, and had a demonstrated knack for comebacks. His off-field behavior may be a factor as some have mentioned though, since he was a bit of a "free spirit", if you will. In that respect, his situation may be similar to that of Michael Irvin. If Aikman and Smith were no-brainers for the HOF in their first year of eligibility on the strength of their roles with the Cowboys championship teams of the early 90's, then Irvin should certainly merit consideration as well, but his off-field troubles may well keep him out regardless. That doesn't mean the electors hate the Cowboys or Jerry Jones, but it may indicate that they are perhaps a bit too self conscious about their image if they induct someone who's a bit too controversial in some way. For my money, I think the HOF in any sport should be about what the players do between the lines, but it doesn't work that way. If it did, Pete Rose would have been in the baseball HOF years ago.

 

[Tau837]

Stabler did his part to show he was the best comeback QB in the league in all three games. No quarterback from Stabler's era has a more impressive resume' in this regard.

Staubach had 23 4th quarter comebacks, including 17 in the final two minutes. And that is in only 131 games IIRC. Stabler played in 50+ more games. How many 4th quarter comebacks did he lead? How many in the final two minutes? You named two so far (Immaculate Reception game was a loss, and thus doesn't count).I'm not saying Stabler wasn't great at comebacks, but I'd like to see some more evidence that he was better than Staubach.

 

[Solsticio]

Great topic and great disscution. The following is a trascription from Dr. Z's "The New Thinking Man's Guide to Pro Football" 1984 edition. I am including it because shows a different aspect of his carrer through the eyes of his teammates.

"Life styles often lend legendary qualities to certian players. In some sections of the country ex-Raider, ex-Oiler, and current New Orleans Saint Ken Stabler is considered a legend. To me he's always been an enigma. I am not talking about his drinking and carousing off the field; lots of great NFL players have had a wild side. What's always puzzled me is the way he could be in absolute control of a game, zipping neat, precise passes through the tiniest of holes -he always as a great "touch" passer- and then see the whole thing come unraveled.

"When we played in the '77 Super Bowl, I was the querterback coach under John Madden," Raiders' coach Tom Flores says. "One day in practive before the game Kenny threw for an hour and the ball didn't hit the ground once. Madden came over to me and said, 'What do you think?' I said, 'Put a blanket over him and send him in .... this is scary.'"

"I always adired the absolute disdain he showed for the other team, for the guys rushing him, even when the got to him," said Oakland defensive end Pat Toomay, who roomed with Stabler in camp. "It's like they weren't even worth thinking about. But then after been around him for a while I had different feelings. The way he lived ... the lack of effort he put into his job ... well, I just could't respect it."

Once when the Oilers played in New York and Stabler has already been traded, a kid from a local college newspaper asked Dave Casper for his opinions about Stabler. Casper has been his tight end with the Raiders and Oilers, and the off-the-cuff comments he gave that young interviewer were things I'd never seen written before. "He set coaching back 50 years", Casper said as he was knotting his tie. " He knows everything there is to know on a football field, but when they gave him his game plan on Wednesday he probably takes it home and throws it in the waste basket. No one ever suspected how little he knows about the game plan on a particular week. He's fooled'em all his life and he continues to fool'em."

"I don't think he ever cared aout loosing. Winning is fine. Loosing? So what? He'd rather win the game and force a pass in there. A bluffer, a gambler ... he rath do it the hard way.""

He had HOF talent, you can make a HOF case with his achivements and numbers. Against him is his off field life style, but it seems that his lack of effort and commitment is what makes him unwhorty of Canton.

On a side note:

Who was the only QB that passed for more than 4,000 yards in a 14 game season?

Would he be deserving HOFer?

 

[Ed Wood]

Let's look at some of the historical playoff comebacks Stabler led in the AFC playoffs.

Sea of Hands

With 4:54 left in the game and down to two time defending SB Champ Miami 19-14, Stabler's Raiders get the ball back on their own 17 yard line. Stabler hits Freddy Biletnikoff for 11 yards. Next Stabler hits Cliff Branch for 72 yards and a touchdown.

Miami comes back, largely on it's running game. Larry Csonka carries twice for 7 and 15 yards. Griese completes a 28 yard pass. Then halfback Benny Malone takes a sweep for 23 yards and the touchdown.

The Raiders start from their own 32, Oakland drove to the Miami eight. With no timeouts remaining, Stabler rolls left and bein tackled and falling down threw to RB Clarence Davis, who made a great catch among a "sea of hands" belonging to three Dolphins defenders, for the winning TD with 24 seconds remaining.

Two touchdown drive in the last 4:54 led by Stabler...finished by Stabler with 24 seconds left.

Immaculate Reception

Yes, the Raiders did lose on the questionable call. But after scoring no points with starting QB Darryl Lamonica, Madden brings in the Snake. Down 6-0, Stabler leads the Raiders down the field. At the Steeler 30 yard line with just under a 1:30 left, Stabler takes off on a 30 yard touchdown run and scores with 1:13 left on the clock. We all know what happens after this...

Ghost to the Post

Longest playoff game in NFL history. Going 6 quarters.

Stabler hits Dave Casper deep on a 42 yard pass to set up the game typing field goal late in the fourth. Stabler then hits Casper again in double overtime for 11 yards and the 37-31 Oakland win versus Baltimore.

Three of the biggest and well known playoff games of his era...and Stabler did his part to show he was the best comeback QB in the league in all three games. No quarterback from Stabler's era has a more impressive resume' in this regard.

Great games, all. I posted earlier on the 1976 opener against the Steelers where Snake led 'em back from a 28-14 deficit with 7 minutes left. I was writing from memory there. Turns out there was about five and a half minutes left when Stabler started to work his magic with some help from the Raiders D and special teams. Good times. From http://www.raiders.com/History/gm9.jsp

 

[Ed Wood]

Staubach had 23 4th quarter comebacks, including 17 in the final two minutes. And that is in only 131 games IIRC. I'm not saying Stabler wasn't great at comebacks, but I'd like to see some more evidence that he was better than Staubach.

Link? I'm not saying he was better than Staubach. I'm saying he was in the same league though.

 

[Ed Wood]

Oh, and let's not forget the rally from 35-14 down against the Saints with less than 7 minutes on the Road.

http://raiders.com/history/gm18.jsp

 

[Ed Wood]

And then there was the 1976 AFC Championship Game against the Patriots. Down 21-17, Stabler marched the Raiders down the field and ran in for the winning touchdown with 10 seconds left.

So that's 3 HUGE playoff wins that Stabler engineered with comebacks (this one, the Sea of Hands, plus the Ghost to the Post game).

How many did Staubach have? I'm not much of a historian, but I can only recall one against the 49ers. I seem to recall it was a good one, the 'Boys were way down. But were there any more? Any with the pressure of the playoffs that Stabler clearly excelled at?

And that Ghost to the Post game, wow. Not only did Stabler have to guide 'em down the field just to tie the game with a field goal in the last 30 seconds, but there were two pressure-packed OT periods.

Stabler was a stud.

 

[Ed Wood]

Let's look at some of the historical playoff comebacks Stabler led in the AFC playoffs.

Sea of Hands

The Raiders start from their own 32, Oakland drove to the Miami eight. With no timeouts remaining, Stabler rolls left and bein tackled and falling down threw to RB Clarence Davis, who made a great catch among a "sea of hands" belonging to three Dolphins defenders, for the winning TD with 24 seconds remaining.

I can see that drive in my sleep. He hit Biletnikoff twice, Branch once. He even completed a pass to former KC retread Frank Pitts.

 

[Ed Wood]

Let's look at some of the historical playoff comebacks Stabler led in the AFC playoffs.

Sea of Hands

The Raiders start from their own 32, Oakland drove to the Miami eight. With no timeouts remaining, Stabler rolls left and bein tackled and falling down threw to RB Clarence Davis, who made a great catch among a "sea of hands" belonging to three Dolphins defenders, for the winning TD with 24 seconds remaining.

Vern Den Herder, if you're out there...

 

[Tau837]

Stabler did his part to show he was the best comeback QB in the league in all three games. No quarterback from Stabler's era has a more impressive resume' in this regard.

Staubach had 23 4th quarter comebacks, including 17 in the final two minutes. And that is in only 131 games IIRC. Stabler played in 50+ more games. How many 4th quarter comebacks did he lead? How many in the final two minutes? You named two so far (Immaculate Reception game was a loss, and thus doesn't count).I'm not saying Stabler wasn't great at comebacks, but I'd like to see some more evidence that he was better than Staubach.

According to DallasCowboys.com, Staubach has 23 4th quarter comebacks, and 14 in the final two minutes.http://www.dallascowboys.com/history_roh_player.cfm?art=10

Roger Staubach - Wikipedia

Staubach was one of the most exciting NFL players of the 1970s. Known as "Roger The Dodger" for his scrambling abilities, and also as "Captain Comeback" for his many fourth quarter heroics, Staubach had a penchant for leading scoring drives which would lead the Cowboys to improbable victories. He led his team to twenty-three come-from-behind victories in the fourth quarter, with 17 of these coming in the last two minutes.

I don't think you guys are going to get close to 17 and 23 with Stabler.

 

[Tau837]

Ken Stabler...

All Pro Team in 1974, 1976 & 1977

This is incorrect. Stabler made All NFL only one time, in 1974. See All NFL Teams.Compared to the other QBs discussed in this thread, Bradshaw made it once, Tarkenton and Griese each made it twice, and Staubach never made it.

 

[MarshallRob]

Stabler 2481 ATT’s – 1486 COMP’s 59.9%Staubach 2958 ATT’s – 1685 COMP’s 57.0%Griese 3429 ATT’s – 1926 COMP’s 56.2%Bradshaw 2859 ATT’s – 1474 COMP’s 51.5%Tarkenton 3445 ATT’s – 2056 COMP’s 59.6%Ken Stabler...Led the Raiders to their 1st Super Bowl Championship in 19771974, 1976 AFC “Player of the Year”1974 “Offensive Player of the Year”1976 NFL “Player of the Year” and NFL Passing Champion1977 led the Oakland Raiders to Super Bowl XI victory over the Minnesota VikingsAll Pro Team in 1974, 1976 & 1977Played the Pro Bowl in 1973, 1974 & 1976Most victories of a Raiders quarterback - 71All time leading Raiders passer in attempts, completions, completion percentage, yardage and touchdownsHickok Belt 1976Hickok BeltHickok Manufacturing Co.The Hickok Belt is a trophy of gold, diamonds and other jewels currently worth about $100,000, which is awarded annually to the leading professional athlete of the year. A poll of 270 leading newspaper sports editors in the U.S. determines the recipient. Ken Stabler won in 1976 and was the last recipient of this award.Year Winner Sport1950 Phil Rizzuto baseball1951 Allie Reynolds baseball1952 Rocky Marciano boxing1953 Ben Hogan golf1954 Willie Mays baseball1955 Otto Graham football1956 Mickey Mantle baseball1957 Carmen Basilio boxing1958 Bob Turley baseball1959 Ingemar Johansson boxing1960 Arnold Palmer golf1961 Roger Maris baseball1962 Maury Wills baseball1963 Sandy Koufax baseball1964 Jim Brown football1965 Sandy Koufax baseball1966 Frank Robinson baseball1967 Carl Yastrzemski baseball1968 Joe Namath football1969 Tom Seaver baseball1970 Brooks Robinson baseball1971 Lee Trevino golf1972 Steve Carlton baseball1973 O.J. Simpson football1974 Muhammad Ali boxing1975 Pete Rose baseball1976 Ken Stabler footballCheck out the Professional Athletes and the names on this award...

I think we get it. You think Stabler should be in the Hall of Fame.Like I said earlier he was fun to watch but he's just not Hall of Fame material and that earlier post excerpting the "Thinking Man's Guide to Pro Football" gets to the heart of it. He just didn't have the dedication to the game that Stuabach, Tarkenton, Griese, and Bradshaw did. For two years, 1974 and 1976, he might have been the best but that's just two years not a career. His team traded him away and immediately won a Super Bowl. That's not a Hall of Famer. You posted a lot of stats but didn't include QB rating:Staubach: 83.4Tarkenton: 80.4Griese: 77.1Stabler: 75.3Bradshaw: 70.9Only Bradshaw has a worse passer rating but Terry's got 4 rings plus he kicked in 2257 yards on the ground and 32 rushing TD's (to Stabler's 93 rushing yards and 4 rushing TD's). I'm not sure where your All-Pro stats are coming from. Stabler was AP All-Pro just once, in 1974. He made 3 Pro Bowls but that is nothing special for a star QB. Tarkenton made 9, Griese 8 and Staubach 6.The Hall averages 4-5 QB's per decade. I think the best 4 of the 70's are in and if there's room for one more Ken Anderson has a much better case than the Snake does.

 

[MarshallRob]

Ken Stabler...

All Pro Team in 1974, 1976 & 1977

This is incorrect. Stabler made All NFL only one time, in 1974. See All NFL Teams.Compared to the other QBs discussed in this thread, Bradshaw made it once, Tarkenton and Griese each made it twice, and Staubach never made it.

I need a better link than that...Stabler was voted NFL MVP in '74 & 76 by the Maxwell and AP. He also has player of the year awards in both of those years. Based on this I gotta believe Stabler was All Pro in 1974, 1976 and 1977 like the site says. How do you win NFL League MVP (1976) and not make the All Pro team?

Bert Jones was the AP MVP in 1976 as well as the AP's All-Pro selection. Griese was All-Pro in 1977, won the Maxwell Trophy and led the NFL in passer rating.

 

[MarshallRob]

So you wanna believe one guy who said this, Pat Toomay? C'mon, Toomay wrote a book and was trying to stir up controversy.You know what else about Pat Toomay, he only played on the Raiders for three years, from '77-'79.Toomay was not a part of their Super Bowl winning team.Why don't you take a look at what the rest of the Raiders said about Stabler...the true Raiders. The impact Raiders who were the biggest factor on those winning teams. Not some three year journeyman like Pat Toomay trying to sell a book...

I don't think you read that post carefully enough. Dr. Z wrote that book. Stabler was not the subject of the book. Dr. Z interviewed Toomey for the book and Toomey had some interesting comments about Stabler. So did Dave Casper. I know you don't think he was a journeyman. The book has nothing to do with Stabler not being in the Hall. It is revealing of why Stabler might not be in the Hall. Lots of players and sportswriters from back then know the whole story. It wasn't exactly a secret.Yes, Stabler is one of the 3 Qb's on the All-70's team. Nobody is saying he wasn't very good or even great at times. Lots of other great players selected to that team aren't in the Hall either.

 

[MarshallRob]

So you wanna believe one guy who said this, Pat Toomay? C'mon, Toomay wrote a book and was trying to stir up controversy.

You know what else about Pat Toomay, he only played on the Raiders for three years, from '77-'79.

Toomay was not a part of their Super Bowl winning team.

Why don't you take a look at what the rest of the Raiders said about Stabler...the true Raiders. The impact Raiders who were the biggest factor on those winning teams. Not some three year journeyman like Pat Toomay trying to sell a book...

I don't think you read that post carefully enough. Dr. Z wrote that book. Stabler was not the subject of the book. Dr. Z interviewed Toomey for the book and Toomey had some interesting comments about Stabler. So did Dave Casper. I know you don't think he was a journeyman.

4 teams in 9 years, Toomay was a journeyman. The Bills left him unprotected in the '76 expansion draft and the Bucs picked him up. This shows Toomay was one of the worst players on the Bills. Journeyman Pat Toomay playing with Stabler for just three years and promoting a chapter in his book with Dr Z doesn't interest me. John Madden, Gene Upshaw, Jack Tatum and all the other Ex-Raiders saying Stabler belongs in the HOF does...

Read my post one more time.

 

[Sweet Love]

I just want to know why he was called The Snake. 93 yards rushing for his career (I think Marino had like 60 yards for his career) does not seem very "snake like" I take it he was a master of going east/west and not north/south.

 

[Tau837]

Ken Stabler...

All Pro Team in 1974, 1976 & 1977

This is incorrect. Stabler made All NFL only one time, in 1974. See All NFL Teams.Compared to the other QBs discussed in this thread, Bradshaw made it once, Tarkenton and Griese each made it twice, and Staubach never made it.

I need a better link than that...Stabler was voted NFL MVP in '74 & 76 by the Maxwell and AP. He also has player of the year awards in both of those years. Based on this I gotta believe Stabler was All Pro in 1974, 1976 and 1977 like the site says. How do you win NFL League MVP (1976) and not make the All Pro team?

I provide you with a link and you respond with "I gotta believe". Give me a break. My link refutes your post. You are the one that needs "a better link".

 

[Tau837]

I think we get it. You think Stabler should be in the Hall of Fame.Like I said earlier he was fun to watch but he's just not Hall of Fame material and that earlier post excerpting the "Thinking Man's Guide to Pro Football" gets to the heart of it. He just didn't have the dedication to the game that Stuabach, Tarkenton, Griese, and Bradshaw did. For two years, 1974 and 1976, he might have been the best but that's just two years not a career. His team traded him away and immediately won a Super Bowl. That's not a Hall of Famer. You posted a lot of stats but didn't include QB rating:Staubach: 83.4Tarkenton: 80.4Griese: 77.1Stabler: 75.3Bradshaw: 70.9Only Bradshaw has a worse passer rating but Terry's got 4 rings plus he kicked in 2257 yards on the ground and 32 rushing TD's (to Stabler's 93 rushing yards and 4 rushing TD's). I'm not sure where your All-Pro stats are coming from. Stabler was AP All-Pro just once, in 1974. He made 3 Pro Bowls but that is nothing special for a star QB. Tarkenton made 9, Griese 8 and Staubach 6.The Hall averages 4-5 QB's per decade. I think the best 4 of the 70's are in and if there's room for one more Ken Anderson has a much better case than the Snake does.

 

[Tau837]

Stabler did his part to show he was the best comeback QB in the league in all three games. No quarterback from Stabler's era has a more impressive resume' in this regard.

Staubach had 23 4th quarter comebacks, including 17 in the final two minutes. And that is in only 131 games IIRC. Stabler played in 50+ more games. How many 4th quarter comebacks did he lead? How many in the final two minutes? You named two so far (Immaculate Reception game was a loss, and thus doesn't count).I'm not saying Stabler wasn't great at comebacks, but I'd like to see some more evidence that he was better than Staubach.

According to DallasCowboys.com, Staubach has 23 4th quarter comebacks, and 14 in the final two minutes.http://www.dallascowboys.com/history_roh_player.cfm?art=10

Roger Staubach - Wikipedia

Staubach was one of the most exciting NFL players of the 1970s. Known as "Roger The Dodger" for his scrambling abilities, and also as "Captain Comeback" for his many fourth quarter heroics, Staubach had a penchant for leading scoring drives which would lead the Cowboys to improbable victories. He led his team to twenty-three come-from-behind victories in the fourth quarter, with 17 of these coming in the last two minutes.

I don't think you guys are going to get close to 17 and 23 with Stabler.

It is what it is: Did you give up on this one?

 

[bellmar]

I graduated from high school in 1973. Stabler was my favorite QB at the time and still is one of my all time favorites. We were getting high and rooting for the guy with long hair like us but still able to play great ball in the NFL. Stabler was our QB, Staubach was our Mom's QB.

 

[redman]

He had HOF talent, you can make a HOF case with his achivements and numbers. Against him is his off field life style, but it seems that his lack of effort and commitment is what makes him unwhorty of Canton.

I've not read the entire thread, but you could say the very same things about Lawrence Taylor.

 

[dgreen]

As Dallas NEVER beat Oakland in those days.

As best I can tell, they only played once in the 70s. Oakland won 27-23 in 1974 in Oakland. Not exactly anything that should be used to support any argument.

Stabler's Raiders beat Staubach's Cowboys 30-0 in 1969 in the "Ron Wolfe vs Gil Brandt Bowl".

Stabler's rookie year was 1970. He didn't become the starter until 1974. Staubach was a rookie in '69, but he didn't play a whole lot.Plus, it doesn't appear Dallas played Oakland in 1969.

 

[WhoDat]

He had HOF talent, you can make a HOF case with his achivements and numbers. Against him is his off field life style, but it seems that his lack of effort and commitment is what makes him unwhorty of Canton.

I've not read the entire thread, but you could say the very same things about Lawrence Taylor.

I agree with your point but...Taylor completely changed the perception of defense; defensive specialists; defensive blue chip players and he forced coaches to alter their offenses once or twice a year, depending on how often the two played. Taylor redefined the position of LB in the NFL and is easily one of the best football players in history.There were many veterans that had issues with Taylor waltzing into Canton. However, they gave a hall pass to one of the Top 5 or Top 10 professional football players of all time. I have a soft spot for Stabler but he did not do enough on the field to separate himself from his off field transgressions and Stabler did a hell of a lot on the field for a number of years.

 

[redman]

He had HOF talent, you can make a HOF case with his achivements and numbers. Against him is his off field life style, but it seems that his lack of effort and commitment is what makes him unwhorty of Canton.

I've not read the entire thread, but you could say the very same things about Lawrence Taylor.

I agree with your point but...Taylor completely changed the perception of defense; defensive specialists; defensive blue chip players and he forced coaches to alter their offenses once or twice a year, depending on how often the two played. Taylor redefined the position of LB in the NFL and is easily one of the best football players in history.There were many veterans that had issues with Taylor waltzing into Canton. However, they gave a hall pass to one of the Top 5 or Top 10 professional football players of all time. I have a soft spot for Stabler but he did not do enough on the field to separate himself from his off field transgressions and Stabler did a hell of a lot on the field for a number of years.

Understood and agreed that Taylor had a huge impact on the game that Stabler didn't have. Still, I don't get the tie-in between on-field performance and off-field transgressions. What does one have to do with the other? Also, to the extent there's a tie-in, why wouldn't you also count peoples' good behavior as a factor favoring their enshrinement? It starts getting ridiculous. I favor keeping this simple. If their on-field performance warrants enshrinement, put 'em in; if not, don't.

 

[MarshallRob]

As Dallas NEVER beat Oakland in those days.

As best I can tell, they only played once in the 70s. Oakland won 27-23 in 1974 in Oakland. Not exactly anything that should be used to support any argument.

Stabler's Raiders beat Staubach's Cowboys 30-0 in 1969 in the "Ron Wolfe vs Gil Brandt Bowl".

Stabler's rookie year was 1970. He didn't become the starter until 1974. Staubach was a rookie in '69, but he didn't play a whole lot.Plus, it doesn't appear Dallas played Oakland in 1969.

Stabler was drafted in the 2nd round in 1968 by Oakland. Do a google search on the 30-0 Oakland win I told you about in 1969...it's on NFL.com and a few other sites.

Oakland and Dallas did not and could not have played in 1969. The AFL and NFL didn't merge until 1970. The only interleague game in 1969 was the Super Bowl. Stabler never played a down until 1970. I see no basis to assert Oakland was clearly better than Dallas in the 1970's. Dallas played in 5 Super Bowls in that decade. Oakland one. Dallas won two convincingly and lost the other three by margins of 3, 4, and 4 points. The latter two losses were to arguably the greatest team of all time.

 

[Ed Wood]

I just want to know why he was called The Snake. 93 yards rushing for his career (I think Marino had like 60 yards for his career) does not seem very "snake like" I take it he was a master of going east/west and not north/south.

You're on the right track. He got the nickname Snake because in high school he was a great punt returner. On one particular play, he field the punt and ran north, south, east and west. Someone said, "You looked just like a Snake out there." And that's the rest of the story.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

As Dallas NEVER beat Oakland in those days.

As best I can tell, they only played once in the 70s. Oakland won 27-23 in 1974 in Oakland. Not exactly anything that should be used to support any argument.

Stabler's Raiders beat Staubach's Cowboys 30-0 in 1969 in the "Ron Wolfe vs Gil Brandt Bowl".

Stabler's rookie year was 1970. He didn't become the starter until 1974. Staubach was a rookie in '69, but he didn't play a whole lot.Plus, it doesn't appear Dallas played Oakland in 1969.

Stabler was drafted in the 2nd round in 1968 by Oakland.

Do a google search on the 30-0 Oakland win I told you about in 1969...it's on NFL.com and a few other sites.

It was a training camp game. Are we going to count Hasselbeck's preseason games in Green Bay as reason he should be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Had Stabler retired after leaving Oakland, he would likely be in the Hall of Fame. He had 5 great years, one good year and one mediocre year. Unfortunately, he played another 50+ games after he left, and was a shell of his former self. That period of time works against him, for better or worse.

The other problem is that he was rarely seen as the best QB of his time. Griese was the thinking man's QB, Staubach was the All American hero, Bradshaw was fortunate enough to be the Steelers QB, Tarkenton had great years in the 60's and 70's, and Fouts took over as stats machine in the late 70's. Stabler, like Kenny Anderson, is an odd man out, who is better than some guys in there (Namath).

 

[WhoDat]

He had HOF talent, you can make a HOF case with his achivements and numbers. Against him is his off field life style, but it seems that his lack of effort and commitment is what makes him unwhorty of Canton.

I've not read the entire thread, but you could say the very same things about Lawrence Taylor.

I agree with your point but...Taylor completely changed the perception of defense; defensive specialists; defensive blue chip players and he forced coaches to alter their offenses once or twice a year, depending on how often the two played. Taylor redefined the position of LB in the NFL and is easily one of the best football players in history.There were many veterans that had issues with Taylor waltzing into Canton. However, they gave a hall pass to one of the Top 5 or Top 10 professional football players of all time. I have a soft spot for Stabler but he did not do enough on the field to separate himself from his off field transgressions and Stabler did a hell of a lot on the field for a number of years.

Understood and agreed that Taylor had a huge impact on the game that Stabler didn't have. Still, I don't get the tie-in between on-field performance and off-field transgressions. What does one have to do with the other? Also, to the extent there's a tie-in, why wouldn't you also count peoples' good behavior as a factor favoring their enshrinement? It starts getting ridiculous. I favor keeping this simple. If their on-field performance warrants enshrinement, put 'em in; if not, don't.

I don't disagree, redman. I just know that the football HOF still takes great pride in the process of selecting members and selecting the right members. The baseball HOF has become the Home of the Very Good and, well, if you wait around long enough, then you get your place. Canton is still reserved for the best of the best and what you do and or don't do between and or outside the lines matters. I just remember hearing and seeing commentary on Taylor's acceptance being tough on some of the older members. Those old timers that still place a premium on things like...Being a good citizenBeing a good team mateRepresenting a cityRepresenting a franchiseYeah, I know. It seems like an antiquated qualifier or something that is so subjective that it is really not a fair measurement of a player and or man. However, I do not disagree. I do, though, think they, which would be the voters, should be more consistent. We agree. If you it is good for one, then it is good for everyone. Stabler's problems were a combination of Bobby Layne meets Alex Karras. The league has never been too found of anyone grazing pastures frequented by Karras or Hornung. My personal feeling is that there is more to that story than we'll ever know, as it pertains to Stabler, but that is what is keeping him out.