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I don't think they have any intention of extending Ingram. After seeing the 3 year/$10M deals these other RB's are getting they are likely looking to move on.
They are happy with him for the price. If he had the same salary as Sproles he'd be the one leaving instead.
Of course being a UDFA doesn't in and of itself doom anyone to mediocrity -- and I never said that it did. But it's a relevant data point, particularly when discussing a player with as few career touches as Khiry Robinson has. The odds are stacked against him, both as a player and situationally, so heavily that throwing around stuff like "potential stud" and invoking Arian Foster is pure ridiculous hyperbole, but again, carry on.Ahh, the old Shark Pool straw man with erroneous inferences, fantastic. My point was Foster wasn't drafted either and he didn't exactly dominate with his 8rec and 3TD in his rookie season; I was simply pointing out that that combination of facts doesn't doom a player to a fate of mediocrity yet alone irrelevancy.You must have missed the fact that Robinson just really isn't all that good. He wasn't drafted, NO didn't use him much, Ingram outplayed him all year, and they just extended Pierre Thomas. They'll probably also draft or sign another RB in May to help fill the Sproles void.
But go on believing he can be the next Arian Foster.
Ingram had 2 good games all regular season long, he wasn't exactly tearing things up nor were the Saints using him much given his 7 carries per game average. And the fellow undrafted Pierre Thomas was the Saints least effective runner last season by a good margin, safe to say it's pretty unlikely he's gonna lead the Saints carries by such a wide margin again. As SaintsInDome2006 points out, there's a lot of variability and opportunity in the Saints offense right now, I don't think anything is set in stone in that situation.
I get what you're saying but if anyone had thrown around the phrase 'potential stud' about Foster at the beginning of 2010, let alone after they drafted Tate, they would have been laughed out of the room. My opinion is that once a player makes a team and flashes some potential you can throw draft position out the window.
Again, Arian Foster was only invoked to provide an evidence point that having minimal stats in a rookie season doesn't mean that the RB doesn't have stud potential, nothing more nothing less.Of course being a UDFA doesn't in and of itself doom anyone to mediocrity -- and I never said that it did. But it's a relevant data point, particularly when discussing a player with as few career touches as Khiry Robinson has. The odds are stacked against him, both as a player and situationally, so heavily that throwing around stuff like "potential stud" and invoking Arian Foster is pure ridiculous hyperbole, but again, carry on.Ahh, the old Shark Pool straw man with erroneous inferences, fantastic. My point was Foster wasn't drafted either and he didn't exactly dominate with his 8rec and 3TD in his rookie season; I was simply pointing out that that combination of facts doesn't doom a player to a fate of mediocrity yet alone irrelevancy.
But go on believing he can be the next Arian Foster.
Ingram had 2 good games all regular season long, he wasn't exactly tearing things up nor were the Saints using him much given his 7 carries per game average. And the fellow undrafted Pierre Thomas was the Saints least effective runner last season by a good margin, safe to say it's pretty unlikely he's gonna lead the Saints carries by such a wide margin again. As SaintsInDome2006 points out, there's a lot of variability and opportunity in the Saints offense right now, I don't think anything is set in stone in that situation.
If you look back through the Robinson threads, I'm not a blind hater -- I picked him up last year in a bunch of leagues and still own him in one where I have been unable to find a sucker... errr buyer. I am realistic, though -- and it's HUGELY unlikely that Robinson ever develops into anything substantial.
Leaving aside Robinson himself, what is really there for the taking in NO? They seem hugely committed to RBBC, and the bulk of the FF points out of the NO backfield have come in the form of volume receptions for Payton's entire run, except when he had Pro Bowler Deuce McCallister as a rookie HC. Thomas is now in the fold for two more years, and even Ingram was more of a factor in the passing game than was Robinson last year.
Weighing an eyeball test on a handful of career touches over hard data like (lack of) draft position and historical team usage patterns at RB seems like a pretty sketchy way to assess a player to me, but YMMV.Again, Arian Foster was only invoked to provide an evidence point that having minimal stats in a rookie season doesn't mean that the RB doesn't have stud potential, nothing more nothing less.Of course being a UDFA doesn't in and of itself doom anyone to mediocrity -- and I never said that it did. But it's a relevant data point, particularly when discussing a player with as few career touches as Khiry Robinson has. The odds are stacked against him, both as a player and situationally, so heavily that throwing around stuff like "potential stud" and invoking Arian Foster is pure ridiculous hyperbole, but again, carry on.If you look back through the Robinson threads, I'm not a blind hater -- I picked him up last year in a bunch of leagues and still own him in one where I have been unable to find a sucker... errr buyer. I am realistic, though -- and it's HUGELY unlikely that Robinson ever develops into anything substantial.Ahh, the old Shark Pool straw man with erroneous inferences, fantastic. My point was Foster wasn't drafted either and he didn't exactly dominate with his 8rec and 3TD in his rookie season; I was simply pointing out that that combination of facts doesn't doom a player to a fate of mediocrity yet alone irrelevancy.
But go on believing he can be the next Arian Foster.
Ingram had 2 good games all regular season long, he wasn't exactly tearing things up nor were the Saints using him much given his 7 carries per game average. And the fellow undrafted Pierre Thomas was the Saints least effective runner last season by a good margin, safe to say it's pretty unlikely he's gonna lead the Saints carries by such a wide margin again. As SaintsInDome2006 points out, there's a lot of variability and opportunity in the Saints offense right now, I don't think anything is set in stone in that situation.
And yes the odds are stacked against Khiry and all that, but imo it's foolish to ignore the upside he has. And as someone who judges players on how they look as much as how good their stats are, I think the likelihood he develops into something is WAY more likely than you're giving him credit for, but we can agree to disagree there.
I think this is why the hype for Robinson was so great, when it looked like Thomas and Sproles were out. He can catch the ball and he is bigger then Thomas. I still think Robinson will have flex value and could have great value if Thomas or Ingram get dinged up early.
Yeah, but that cat who gave the 1.08 and a 2nd rd pick for Robinson is probably stepping out on the ledge about right now.
This is really my main point. I like Robinson as a stash, but not at the cost of turning down a guaranteed great return on the initial WW pickup. Obviously the above package is an outlier, but Robinson has a good chunk of believers out there who will give you much more than "nice longshot stash" prices.
That's my feeling. As I mentioned, I'd much rather have the competition be Thomas than a rookie RB.
2nds make absolutely fantastic trade currency without burning up a roster spot -- and if executed that will be better than a UDFA in RBBC. Basically, I see Robinson's value as very likely to completely crater if / when it becomes obvious he's just another < 100 carry, minimal catch cog in the Saints' system.
Make that Thomas and Ingram as competition. So, back to the 3 headed, possibly 4 headed monster.
You keep bringing up that he was a UDFA- so were Thomas and Ivory, so that obviously doesn't mean much to NO.
I bring it up because it's the best measure of a player's talent when we have < 100 career touches to go on. And what if he is the next Ivory? Then everyone turning down the sell high offers right now is a stone cold fool. Ivory is a dog turd.
Fantasy value is a combination of talent and opportunity. NO obviously is more than willing to give an UDFA RB opportunity, so I don't view that as a negative in this situation.
He wasn't considered one when he signed with the Jets. I thought the deals posted in the Dynasty Trade thread were ridiculous but they happened.
Stop with this Robinson can catch, any player can catch but he currently has no catches in an NFL game. So we have no idea what he can do when he catches a ball in an NFL game.
He was by me LOL.
Stop with the he hasn't caught any in an NFL game, he didn't play a lot last year and the Saints used Thomas and Sproles as their pass catching backs. We all know how the Saints use their backs. It was a lack of chances. A guy that caught that many passes in college just doesn't forget how to catch the ball because he is in the NFL.
Look I'm fully aware of the difference, but just to be clear Robinson was 11/103/ in the preseason, including 6/50 in one game (the 3rd PS game), and he had a nice 13 yard catch and run in the Seahawks playoff game (one in which Cadet and Ingram had awful, costly drops on short screens in what was obviously a key part of the gameplan). And keep in mind he didn't really get into a lot of games or get much time to begin with.
He looked good in the college video I watched and caught 11 passes for 9.4 YPR in the preseason.
Good point, Robinson caught his only NFL target for a 13 yard gain and against the Seahawks in a playoff game no less.
What's kind of funny about this Foster and UDFA conversation is that the Saints actually offered Foster more money than the Texans back in the day when he came out as an UDFA - Foster went with the Texans because of opportunity supposedly for less money (or so the story goes, and yes that story cuts both ways because of that whole time sharing issue you're discussing...).Of course being a UDFA doesn't in and of itself doom anyone to mediocrity -- and I never said that it did. But it's a relevant data point, particularly when discussing a player with as few career touches as Khiry Robinson has. The odds are stacked against him, both as a player and situationally, so heavily that throwing around stuff like "potential stud" and invoking Arian Foster is pure ridiculous hyperbole, but again, carry on.Ahh, the old Shark Pool straw man with erroneous inferences, fantastic. My point was Foster wasn't drafted either and he didn't exactly dominate with his 8rec and 3TD in his rookie season; I was simply pointing out that that combination of facts doesn't doom a player to a fate of mediocrity yet alone irrelevancy.
But go on believing he can be the next Arian Foster.
Ingram had 2 good games all regular season long, he wasn't exactly tearing things up nor were the Saints using him much given his 7 carries per game average. And the fellow undrafted Pierre Thomas was the Saints least effective runner last season by a good margin, safe to say it's pretty unlikely he's gonna lead the Saints carries by such a wide margin again. As SaintsInDome2006 points out, there's a lot of variability and opportunity in the Saints offense right now, I don't think anything is set in stone in that situation.
If you look back through the Robinson threads, I'm not a blind hater -- I picked him up last year in a bunch of leagues and still own him in one where I have been unable to find a sucker... errr buyer. I am realistic, though -- and it's HUGELY unlikely that Robinson ever develops into anything substantial.
The Saints want an offense that can go into Seattle, San Francisco, or Carolina and win. Shades of Mike Bell and 2009.
Kind of curious about that. Collins played TE at Wazzu and as a FB was good for around 15 catches and the occasional score by air or rushing. He had bad drops though at a couple key moments last year. The Saints were willing to give him chances at the goal line and on 3rd and short, via the pass. What I recall though is his missing some key blocks.
I doubt he's forgotten how to catch, and his receiving numbers are similar to Collins'.
I think the Saints backfield will be one to avoid this year. His future looks bright but it assumes Ingram leaves (likely IMO) and they don't draft a RB early next (less certain).
Cadet played in 13 games last season and earned a grand total of 0 carries, I'd be pretty surprised if he carved out a meaningful role for himself.
I'll sell if someone wows me ('15 1st or similar prospect) but otherwise holding.
Cadet is a special team guy and may get some touches on 3rd down at best.Phenix said:
more or less this. i don't think we have seen enough of Robinson to assess his effectiveness on 3rd down or catching the ball. i have to think that they'll let ingram walk and he can pursue a more lucrative contract. they can just re-load at the position. in either case, robinson would seem to have more value longer term.
Same as day one. Nice stash, but also a guy I'd personally be willing to sell as some folks seem to like him way more than I do. The key to his long term value IMO is his development as a receiver, as no Saints' RB is likely to get enough carries to be super FF relevant. For 2014, Thomas is clearly the guy to own in FF, particularly in PPR.ConnSKINS26 said:
Khiry put up 38 receptions and an 11+ YPR in his senior season in college, those are both really high numbers for a college player, albeit from a lower level of football. Still, I think there's plenty of optimism for his upside in the passing game. I don't play in full 1point PPR leagues so I can't specify to that, but in .5PPR or 0PPR leagues Pierre Thomas is near valueless imo. At best he'll have a few random good games but he has next to no chance of being a consistent fantasy producer week to week like Ingram and Khiry have the potential to; I think you're much better off taking a chance on Ingram or Khiry and worrying about your bye week filler (i.e. a Pierre Thomas) when the time comes.
If you're starting the RB23 as anything more than a bye week filler you aren't going to win your league, no matter if it's a redraft or dynasty. I suppose it depends on starting lineups to a degree, but in most 2 start RB leagues you aren't winning your league with anything less than a RB1 and a high end RB2 at worst. At the start of the season I'd much rather fill my roster with players who have the potential to be an RB1 or high end RB2; Pierre Thomas is not one of those players, Ingram and Khiry are.
Darren Sproles had another 124 touches out of that backfield last season, and he's flown the coop. I suppose it's possible that Thomas takes Sproles' entire slice of the pie (which would give him a larger workload than Jamaal Charles, BTW), leaving Ingram and Robinson continuing to fight over scraps, but I'm not betting the mortgage on it.
