Kyle Shanahan Browns OC, Johnny Manziel NOT a good fit (1 Viewer)

[ghostguy123]

so yeah, if you remember any of the hype around McCoy at the time, it does sound a bit similar.

So similar that Mccoy was a 3rd round pick, and likely falls a couple more rounds if the Browns dont take him.

Similar how exactly?

 

[amnesiac]

Where did he rank him pre-draft?

don't know. but the guy you referenced compared him to Bree's and Montana. my limited scouting of Manziel ranks him as a faster McCoy.

i'll look at him closer.

and if the Browns draft him and he ends up being the next Tarkenton i'll gladly eat crow.

 

[ghostguy123]

And dont get me wrong, I do not want Johnny F-ball at all in the top 4, I just don't see how in the hell anyone is ocmparing him to Mccoy in anyway.

 

[amnesiac]

so yeah, if you remember any of the hype around McCoy at the time, it does sound a bit similar.

So similar that Mccoy was a 3rd round pick, and likely falls a couple more rounds if the Browns dont take him.

Similar how exactly?

this was before crappy QBs got bumped up into the first round. before the rookie salary cap. you think Weeden would've been taken before the third round back then?McCoy was hyped up because he was a "winner" but in truth he was an undersized overachiever.

 

[amnesiac]

Where did he rank him pre-draft?

I definitely don't recall McCoy being a seeming consensus top 5-10 overall pick in his respective draft, but I'm not looking things up (I appreciate you doing it, I'm just watching Mel Brooks High Anxiety during this exchange).

You might be right, amnesiac (about Manziel only being a little better than McCoy), I just don't see it. I think Manziel is more than a little better as a scrambler and runner.

here you go, from the quote above:"Brandt said he views McCoy as a potential top 10 guy worthy of a first-round pick"

 

[ghostguy123]

so yeah, if you remember any of the hype around McCoy at the time, it does sound a bit similar.

So similar that Mccoy was a 3rd round pick, and likely falls a couple more rounds if the Browns dont take him.

Similar how exactly?

this was before crappy QBs got bumped up into the first round. before the rookie salary cap. you think Weeden would've been taken before the third round back then?McCoy was hyped up because he was a "winner" but in truth he was an undersized overachiever.

I dont think Mccoy would go before the 3rd round now. He should have gone in the 5th then.

 

[amnesiac]

so yeah, if you remember any of the hype around McCoy at the time, it does sound a bit similar.

So similar that Mccoy was a 3rd round pick, and likely falls a couple more rounds if the Browns dont take him.

Similar how exactly?

this was before crappy QBs got bumped up into the first round. before the rookie salary cap. you think Weeden would've been taken before the third round back then?McCoy was hyped up because he was a "winner" but in truth he was an undersized overachiever.

I dont think Mccoy would go before the 3rd round now. He should have gone in the 5th then.

i agree that's where he should have gone. i would spend a third on Manziel right now, personally.

 

[ghostguy123]

i agree that's where he should have gone.
i would spend a third on Manziel right now, personally.

If they used their 2nd pick in the first round on him I would be ok with it. I do not want to take him at 4, and certainly do not want to trade up for him.,

 

[Bob Magaw]

Where did he rank him pre-draft?

I definitely don't recall McCoy being a seeming consensus top 5-10 overall pick in his respective draft, but I'm not looking things up (I appreciate you doing it, I'm just watching Mel Brooks High Anxiety during this exchange).

You might be right, amnesiac (about Manziel only being a little better than McCoy), I just don't see it. I think Manziel is more than a little better as a scrambler and runner.

here you go, from the quote above:"Brandt said he views McCoy as a potential top 10 guy worthy of a first-round pick"

Brandt has Manziel as the #1 overall pick currently.

Anyways, my recollection is McCoy never was a consensus top 10 pick.

Brandt seems to have been off in that evaluation, but a lot more scouts will have to be off in the case of Manziel (they were with Leaf, so it is possible).

 

[amnesiac]

i agree that's where he should have gone.

i would spend a third on Manziel right now, personally.

If they used their 2nd pick in the first round on him I would be ok with it. I do not want to take him at 4, and certainly do not want to trade up for him.,

you know, i might be OK with it too. due to the rookie salary cap and positional scarcity. but it's very doubtful that happens.

a trade up for him is a worst case scenario. IMO.

 

[fatness]

I don't know how anyone outside the Skins can pretend to know what was Kyle's doing and what was Mike's. Positive or negative.

Kyle had carte blanche from Mike to do what he wanted. Other coaches did not, some of them (Haslett) were micromanaged and undermined by Mike. Some of the coaches complained about it near the end of the year when Mike Shanahan was releasing anonymous attacks on Griffin, Snyder, etc. in an attempt to get fired.

What's that mean for the Browns? That Kyle comes from a previous job where he wasn't questioned or held accountable for his results by his boss. Kyle also has a "this is my system, you have to fit it" penchant, although he did do some adjusting of gameplans now and then to fit what was working. He's also unafraid to clash with player leaders and be dismissive of them. And he's prone to giving up on the run when his team is even one TD behind nearing halftime (or later).

That's pretty much what I can tell you about Kyle based on all the stuff that's come out about him in the last half year from Redskin news.

Good luck, Browns. I think the guy's too high-strung and panicky, and that he feels threatened too easily.

edited to add: I think Kyle would do better in a situation with a QB who's young and not-so-successful so far, and who wants to do whatever he can to learn whatever he can to improve. That kind of QB isn't likely to make Kyle feel threatened, and is more willing to see "whatever boss says" as the way to get somewhere. A QB with a more established skill set and track record --- that's pretty likely to produce clashes between QB and Kyle. Basically Kyle's better with a mediocre QB he can make better rather than with a QB that's good. The team's not better that way, but Kyle is.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I'll say it again, I think the Browns are headed in the right direction.

It may not seem like it with the screwy ownership situation and whatnot, but I like what Banner and Lombardi are doing, they're not satisfied with losing at all.

If CLE will get Watkins or Evans to go with Gordon and Cameron, and get a free agent vet WR3 who can move the chains, add in a Shanny run game, let Hoyer take the reins for a full season, it could get much better much quicker.

Personally I think an older vet QB like Hoyer would be able to stand up much better than getting into the kind of immaturity tattle tale like environment we saw in WAS.

The Browns don't need a Manziel, like an Archie Manning or Robert Griffin, to come in and be the savior of a franchise, begging him to win every game by the virtue of his own arm and legs. It wouldn't be good for Manziel or the Browns. I think all of this being said this early is a positive.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

I understand why a lot of people aren't sold on Manziel as a pro. Frankly I'm not either. But would anyone actually bet real money against him becoming a great NFL QB?

 

[Two Deep]

On another note. If I,m Cleveland I don't waste a high draft pick on a RB. In fact I have a feeling you will see Ben Tate come your way. With both Tate and Baker geared toward a Shanahan 1 cut running game I think they would be set.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

On another note. If I,m Cleveland I don't waste a high draft pick on a RB. In fact I have a feeling you will see Ben Tate come your way. With both Tate and Baker geared toward a Shanahan 1 cut running game I think they would be set.

Nobody talks about Baker - he came from the Texans too and they could have plans for him.

And now they go get Shanahan.

 

[Two Deep]

I thought Baker did a good job in the 3 games he played. Had a really nice game against a top 5 Jets run D. I hope Cleveland gives him an honest chance and not push him to the side because he isn't a big name early round draft choice. To me unless you have an Adrian Peterson can't miss type running back coming out of college teams should never waste a 1st round draft pick on them. When it comes to the running back position there just isn't that much difference talent wise between 1st and 7th round picks..

 

[KellysHeroes]

I love it when franchises make personnel decisions that will affect them for 10 years based on coaches or assistant coaches that may be around for two. It seems like it's always the same dysfunctional franchises that continue to do this.

The question should be whether Johnny Football is/can be a good NFL QB, not whether he's a good fit with Shanahan. The probability that Shanahan will still be with the Browns 3-4 years from now are virtually nil. He'll either do poorly and be fired by then, or he'll do well and take a head coaching job somewhere by then. Either way, he'll be gone and the Browns will be left holding the results of a personnel decision based on a coach that is no longer there.

drives me crazy, a good coach should be able to make their system work... especially if the player is talented.

 

[Bri]

so yeah, if you remember any of the hype around McCoy at the time, it does sound a bit similar.

So similar that Mccoy was a 3rd round pick, and likely falls a couple more rounds if the Browns dont take him.

Similar how exactly?

He wouldn't have fallen a couple more rounds, geesh.

He was projected late first at best otherwise 2nd to 3rd.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=57219&draftyear=2010&genpos=qb

Did you watch him play college football or just because he became a backup in the NFL, his college career must have stunk.

 

[Bri]

I love it when franchises make personnel decisions that will affect them for 10 years based on coaches or assistant coaches that may be around for two. It seems like it's always the same dysfunctional franchises that continue to do this.

The question should be whether Johnny Football is/can be a good NFL QB, not whether he's a good fit with Shanahan. The probability that Shanahan will still be with the Browns 3-4 years from now are virtually nil. He'll either do poorly and be fired by then, or he'll do well and take a head coaching job somewhere by then. Either way, he'll be gone and the Browns will be left holding the results of a personnel decision based on a coach that is no longer there.

drives me crazy, a good coach should be able to make their system work... especially if the player is talented.

Totally. I would imagine by now they have watched tons of tape on the best prospects. If they llllove Manziel well then fire Shanahan already. That's such a terribly naive statement to make for the reasons above and for teams that might want to trade up.

 

[Ted Mullins]

Yeah, to echo what the other Skins fans are saying in here - there definitely appeared to be a very toxic environment by the time the Shananhans left, and the consensus seems to be they were a big part of the problem. As Fatness said, it sounds like Kyle had a lot of authority for an OC.

FWIW, I am more optimistic for Kyle though - I actually think Kyle does a nice job and I think this will be a good hire if they can avoid these kind of personality conflict issues (although the offense needs more talent). It's been overshadowed by the ugly departure, but Kyle actually has a solid track record at this point. Gordon will likely be force fed similar to Garcon the last few years and Andre Johnson when Kyle was there, but that really should have been the case regardless of who the OC is.

 

[KellysHeroes]

I love it when franchises make personnel decisions that will affect them for 10 years based on coaches or assistant coaches that may be around for two. It seems like it's always the same dysfunctional franchises that continue to do this.

The question should be whether Johnny Football is/can be a good NFL QB, not whether he's a good fit with Shanahan. The probability that Shanahan will still be with the Browns 3-4 years from now are virtually nil. He'll either do poorly and be fired by then, or he'll do well and take a head coaching job somewhere by then. Either way, he'll be gone and the Browns will be left holding the results of a personnel decision based on a coach that is no longer there.

drives me crazy, a good coach should be able to make their system work... especially if the player is talented.

Totally. I would imagine by now they have watched tons of tape on the best prospects. If they llllove Manziel well then fire Shanahan already. That's such a terribly naive statement to make for the reasons above and for teams that might want to trade up.

I would think that management already has in mind who they want and Kyle would of had to sign off on it before accepting the job. If management wants Johnny, Kyle better have a dam good reason why they shouldn't take before getting hired. Or maybe no one in cleveland wants him? But to say not to take him solely because he doesn't fit the rookie coach's system is crazy.

 

[ShaHBucks]

I love it when franchises make personnel decisions that will affect them for 10 years based on coaches or assistant coaches that may be around for two. It seems like it's always the same dysfunctional franchises that continue to do this.

The question should be whether Johnny Football is/can be a good NFL QB, not whether he's a good fit with Shanahan. The probability that Shanahan will still be with the Browns 3-4 years from now are virtually nil. He'll either do poorly and be fired by then, or he'll do well and take a head coaching job somewhere by then. Either way, he'll be gone and the Browns will be left holding the results of a personnel decision based on a coach that is no longer there.

I had to stop reading the thread to say good ####### posting!

 

[ShaHBucks]

No sense in reading into all of this until May. Kyle Shanahan is going to run a traditional offense. He wanted to when McNabb was the QB, and he wanted to with RG3. If I had to guess CLE will shift to big RBs, to play to the cold, blue collar, power football nature of the AFC North. That means Toby Gerhart or Ben Tate signs in Cle. I also think a young, pure pocket passer will be drafted. We just have to wait and see what Lombardi comes up with. In Mike Pettine's interviews he really seem like QB is top priority. I'm sure he knows his job is dependent on the QBs success.

It's not hard to understand why Browns fan wouldn't be estatic about anything the Browns do. They have been a circus for years. But I wouldn't sell them short until they actually start forming the major pieces on the roster.

Manziel is going to flame out in the league. Just too many negative vibes-- character concerns, slender frame, passing issues. I can see a scenario where he gets it all together under the right organization, but that's a draw to an inside straight right now. The smart money is not on his side. Oak or Jac (whatever usual suspect) will be suckered into making him an immediate starter.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Kyle had carte blanche from Mike to do what he wanted. Other coaches did not, some of them (Haslett) were micromanaged and undermined by Mike. Some of the coaches complained about it near the end of the year when Mike Shanahan was releasing anonymous attacks on Griffin, Snyder, etc. in an attempt to get fired.

What's that mean for the Browns? That Kyle comes from a previous job where he wasn't questioned or held accountable for his results by his boss. Kyle also has a "this is my system, you have to fit it" penchant, although he did do some adjusting of gameplans now and then to fit what was working. He's also unafraid to clash with player leaders and be dismissive of them. And he's prone to giving up on the run when his team is even one TD behind nearing halftime (or later).

That's pretty much what I can tell you about Kyle based on all the stuff that's come out about him in the last half year from Redskin news.

Good luck, Browns. I think the guy's too high-strung and panicky, and that he feels threatened too easily.

edited to add: I think Kyle would do better in a situation with a QB who's young and not-so-successful so far, and who wants to do whatever he can to learn whatever he can to improve. That kind of QB isn't likely to make Kyle feel threatened, and is more willing to see "whatever boss says" as the way to get somewhere. A QB with a more established skill set and track record --- that's pretty likely to produce clashes between QB and Kyle. Basically Kyle's better with a mediocre QB he can make better rather than with a QB that's good. The team's not better that way, but Kyle is.

This is exactly what I have heard.

- The impression of nepotism where Kyle had free reign that other coaches did not have.

With the Browns he won't have the sword of nepotism hanging over his head. Also one of the major things mentioned about Browns new HC Mike Pettine is he holds everyone acountable, players and coaches. It had been noted its one of Pettine's strengths that he will hold people accountable. Pettine's nicknme is Blount Force Trauma due to his direct nature of addressing problems early before they fester.

- No one has come out and said he is a 'my way or the highway' type of coach that you are hinting at but they hint at something more along the lines that you mention that he's a young high-strung bright guy so who is bright and has had success.

Their is some smoke of a personality issue but the impression seems that Kyle is a young guy who probably was insecure coming into the league, he was only 28 when he got his first OC gig in Houston under Kubiak (another strong Mike Shanahan connection as Kube was Mike Shanahan's OC and one of his QBs when Kube was a player). He was successful in Houston but he clashed with McNabb. He then had success with RG III but the second year he clashed with him. McNabb had an ego and I've heard he not only questioned the system but I think the combination of not going along and his ego was the reason that didn't work. RG III had huge success his first year. He was/is a superstar in Washington and it seemed the injury caused a rift with Mike Shanahan and the owner (a big issue all itself with Washington) backed the star QB so yet another QB who clashed but his ego seemed to also be an issue.

I'm sure Kyle is a high-strung guy but if he's got a QB who he can work with we've seeen that he has been successful

Oh and great point on Kyle forgetting about or overlooking the run and being pass-happy. That is exactly what I've heard as well. He's been success establishing strong running games but as you noted, he gets away from that. I've heard his playbook is deep and he tries to work in everything. At least that is what Washington beat writer Mike Jones just said an hour ago on Cleveland Browns Daily.

Mike Jones basically everything you said but he added

- Kyle Shanahan's system will scheme-open a WR like Josh Gordon and TE Jordan Cameron

- Thinks Kyle could be the guy to finally figure out Cleveland's QB situation

- He was asked about Johnny Manziel if it would work? He begged off of that question but did say that Kyle could get the most out of Manziel's talent but basically by danced around the personality fit and if that working relationship would work considering Kyle had clashed with big ego type of QBs in the past by basically saying it 'could' be a problem. Jones said Kyle has been able to work with big egos but his tone sounded more like 'yeah it could be a problem' on a personality basis.

So good post. I think you did a good job of putting Kyle Shanahan hiring in a nushell and good luck to you and your team.

 

[MAC_32]

Sage likes him.

I like reading that.