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La'el Collins stock just dropped (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter On The Rocks
- Start date
I don't like it er well I'm not comfortable with it.
The NFL has seemed to have a way of getting info from police and making things public in the past. Why not this time?
If it's no big deal and he's not a suspect, why not draft him?
Aren't these the same owners that wanted rooks slotted to minimize negotiation time and salaries? Why would 32 teams aww feel bad for him getting a lower salary?
What happens if the Pats sign him? Is that cheating?
The NFL has seemed to have a way of getting info from police and making things public in the past. Why not this time?
If it's no big deal and he's not a suspect, why not draft him?
Aren't these the same owners that wanted rooks slotted to minimize negotiation time and salaries? Why would 32 teams aww feel bad for him getting a lower salary?
What happens if the Pats sign him? Is that cheating?
Borden
Footballguy
No. I mean he could promise to agree to that, but the promise would not be enforceable.
If he signs as a UDFA, if he gets cut does he become a UFA no longer subject to rookie scales? I think he does.
I don't think a team could agree to cut him after a year. But can they make the contract voidable by the player after the first year if certain conditions are met? I doubt it, but it'd be worth looking into.
I don't think a team could agree to cut him after a year. But can they make the contract voidable by the player after the first year if certain conditions are met? I doubt it, but it'd be worth looking into.
GregR
Footballguy
I think he'd go through waivers first, but afterwards I'd think yes.
If the contract expires and he doesn't have 4 accrued seasons, I believe he'd still be an Exclusive Rights Free Agent and couldn't negotiate with any other team if the original team tendered him a qualifying offer.
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Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
he can extend after 2 years -- I doubt they'd want to release him back into a pool anytime before that just to do him a solid, as he'd go through waivers and possibly get claimed by another team.
edit: if he got cut, I mean --- letting him void his deal isn't much better for them.
and I'd have absolutely no idea who he'd sign with --- these teams will need to recruit him like he was coming out of high school
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Insein
Footballguy
I don't know the specific language but the CBA prevents him from making more than a capped amount as a rookie.
rockaction
Footballguy
This might be of interest. From Over The Cap, a discussion about his earning potential should he sign as a UDFA.
http://overthecap.com/what-can-lael-collins-earn-as-an-undrafted-free-agent/
http://overthecap.com/what-can-lael-collins-earn-as-an-undrafted-free-agent/
I still think it's better for him not have been drafted after round 3, so those who think he played his hands wrong with the threat of sitting if he went past round 3 are dead wrong.
A bit conspiracy theory of mine but I think the NFL colluded to not draft him after day two but in this case they colluded for his own good. I can't see any other reason why a team would not spend a late round pick on him and try and work things out later.
Andrew Brandt, who knows about these things, sent out a few tweets about it but this one sums it up:
Andrew Brandt @adbrandt · 16h 16 hours ago
As undrafted FA, Collins can sign 3-year deal, not 4-yr as drafted, take advantage of high RFA tender. Could equal 4-yr cash of 2nd rounder.
That's seems better to me than being a 4th round or later pick.
A bit conspiracy theory of mine but I think the NFL colluded to not draft him after day two but in this case they colluded for his own good. I can't see any other reason why a team would not spend a late round pick on him and try and work things out later.
Andrew Brandt, who knows about these things, sent out a few tweets about it but this one sums it up:
Andrew Brandt @adbrandt · 16h 16 hours ago
As undrafted FA, Collins can sign 3-year deal, not 4-yr as drafted, take advantage of high RFA tender. Could equal 4-yr cash of 2nd rounder.
That's seems better to me than being a 4th round or later pick.
Under 3-4 years, IIRC most of the wording includes starts and time on the active roster.Maurile Tremblay said:
It's changed some since Fred Taylor played but after it came out that he was swindled out of his $ by his agent, he was still stuck until the contract was up. The Jags couldn't really do anything to help.
GregR
Footballguy
The murder of a pregnant woman isn't something I feel like betting about.Serious offer - still open.cstu said:
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spider321
Footballguy
Who cares if he killed the woman and their baby?!Serious offer - still open.cstu said:
We wanna know if he can help our favorite football team.
Get your priorities straight, man!!!!
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Apparently in some peoples eyes the Vikings are a terrible organization for not showing more support to Peterson when he was accused of child abuse. Innocent until proven guilty they say - ignoring the media sensation and public uproar at the time he was accused.
I wonder if they use the same measuring stick to judge the NFL and the other 31 organizations as they turned their back on La'el Collins when albeit he is accused of a much more heinous crime. I wonder if they will say retroactively that innocents until proven guilty should have been applied.
I wonder if they use the same measuring stick to judge the NFL and the other 31 organizations as they turned their back on La'el Collins when albeit he is accused of a much more heinous crime. I wonder if they will say retroactively that innocents until proven guilty should have been applied.
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cstu
Footballguy
Fair enough. Can I put you down as believing he's innocent?The murder of a pregnant woman isn't something I feel like betting about.Serious offer - still open.cstu said:
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Smoke weed. Kill B##ches...Smoke weed, kill b###ches.
Decisions, decisions.
Decisions, decisions.
Rimez
Footballguy
Either the teams know something the public doesnt since they were background checking him long before the woman was murdered, or the nfl execs blackballed him from being drafted because they dont want the publicity of another murder investigation, most likely the latter. When the story first broke rae carruth immediately came to mind so it easy to imagine his involvement, and the police arent going to come out and call him a suspect without hard evidence that could convict.
People saying "take a chance on him" are just crazy. Ray rice was kicked out of the league and the nation cursed him for punching a woman that slapped him and spit in his face first. People were burning AP jerseys in the streets while this guy is just a random lineman. And the murder isnt a thug on thug beef like hernandez shooting a rival gang member, this is a poor defenseless pregnant woman gunned down in her own home. If collins is innocent then you cant help but feel terrible for the guy, but if he is guilty of involvement then the backlash at a team for taking him would be monumental.
People saying "take a chance on him" are just crazy. Ray rice was kicked out of the league and the nation cursed him for punching a woman that slapped him and spit in his face first. People were burning AP jerseys in the streets while this guy is just a random lineman. And the murder isnt a thug on thug beef like hernandez shooting a rival gang member, this is a poor defenseless pregnant woman gunned down in her own home. If collins is innocent then you cant help but feel terrible for the guy, but if he is guilty of involvement then the backlash at a team for taking him would be monumental.
massraider
Footballguy
You're gross. Please stop and go away.Fair enough. Can I put you down as believing he's innocent?The murder of a pregnant woman isn't something I feel like betting about.Serious offer - still open.cstu said:
GregR
Footballguy
I don't know why you would, since I haven't expressed any opinion on it.Fair enough. Can I put you down as believing he's innocent?The murder of a pregnant woman isn't something I feel like betting about.Serious offer - still open.cstu said:
I've heard almost no reliable information about the case beyond the police wanting to talk to him. I don't know why anyone would believe they know anything about his innocence or guilt at this point.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Guilty until proven innocent.Who cares if he killed the woman and their baby?!Serious offer - still open.cstu said:
We wanna know if he can help our favorite football team.
Get your priorities straight, man!!!!
Clearly the fact that he once knew a woman and MAY have gotten her pregant, and retained a lawyer (which 99.999% of the people in the thread say is a no brainer, it would be foolish not to) is conclusive proof he did it.
Why even have a trial? Lets just summarily execute him.
massraider
Footballguy
Don't paint me with some hypocrite brush. Quote any of my statements that back you up. If he had nothing to do with it, I hope he recoups some money, that's what I have said.
Some young woman and her unborn child are murdered, no one knows anything. Yet, you're running around playing Deputy G-man, and whether he had anything to do with it or not, your arguments are the arguments of a child. You won't be proven right or wrong, your guess will prove to be right or wrong.
Hope things go really well with your standing bet, tho. Maybe it'll turn out that this guy had a woman and child murdered, and someone will have to change their sig to whatever you choose. That would be totally awesome!!
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Put me down as thinking there aren't enought facts to say.Fair enough. Can I put you down as believing he's innocent?The murder of a pregnant woman isn't something I feel like betting about.Serious offer - still open.cstu said:
Retaining a lawyer is not such a fact. You implied he was evading the police. All you could cite was a text from a radio station. It was than reported that the police would schedule an interview later. Not only are there imo not enough facts, but you have made them up in a few cases. Even when this was pointed out, instead of acknowledging that, you just press on with more speculation of the same kind, which was just disproven. All this shows, is if somebody is determined to find somebody guilty, to the point of bizarrely being convinced retaining an attorney is proof of guilt, you will be able to twist almost anything into proof of guilt.
* You also said something in the thread that you had to apologize for later. Good that you apologized, not good you said it in the first place. Maybe that is a sign that this monomaniacal obssession with rushing to judgement is taking things too far when it had to come to that. And now you are still being insulting.
It is a rational response to interpret the situation such that we just don't know enough yet, and to think it is a nutty idea that retaining a lawyer = guilty. Now you are reduced to ridiculing others for not assuming guilt like you are, because he retained a lawyer???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
You can believe whatever you want, but no need to make stuff up. Most people in the discussion, just like presumably all the teams, aren't forming a conclusion yet. If he is named a suspect, than obviously no team will sign him until exonerated. This argument of yours is a straw man. If he is cleared and innocent, than you are ridiculing others with no provocation.
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Max Power
Footballguy
They were interviewing a former GM on ESPN radio prior to the draft about the Collins situation. I didn't catch his name, but he pitched a scenario that made sense to me and made me question if Collins is involved since he went undrafted.
Ultimately all teams have a director of security and even investigative teams that look into players and prospects. When a player of Collins status becomes such a big question mark and potential major value in a later round, you send your investigative team down to Baton Rouge IMMEDIATELY. This is a league where every little inch counts. How many teams would be willing to drop 250k on a last minute investigation if the information they received could result in drafting a top 15 player in round 2 or 3? Probably a large chunk of them.
These directors of security are generally from law enforcement backgrounds and already have connections throughout the field. A local team like New Orleans probably already has a foot up on the rest of the teams in that regard. People talk.... Its what they do. The information is out there and no reason these people can't find it.
Made sense when I heard it. Now the non-drafting looks like more a red flag after the fact.
Ultimately all teams have a director of security and even investigative teams that look into players and prospects. When a player of Collins status becomes such a big question mark and potential major value in a later round, you send your investigative team down to Baton Rouge IMMEDIATELY. This is a league where every little inch counts. How many teams would be willing to drop 250k on a last minute investigation if the information they received could result in drafting a top 15 player in round 2 or 3? Probably a large chunk of them.
These directors of security are generally from law enforcement backgrounds and already have connections throughout the field. A local team like New Orleans probably already has a foot up on the rest of the teams in that regard. People talk.... Its what they do. The information is out there and no reason these people can't find it.
Made sense when I heard it. Now the non-drafting looks like more a red flag after the fact.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, the LEO timing of it is also suspect. It just seems like if he wasn't a potential suspect, they wouldn't have cost this guy millions upon millions of dollars unless they wanted to make a splash with his name, which corrupt prosecutors are known to do in some instances. I'm just withholding judgment and certainly not rushing to convict the guy because he lawyered up.
cstu
Footballguy
Do you guys think the Baton Rouge PD would destroy a LSU player's career if he wasn't a serious suspect?
They're making him take a DNA test - how many others are they asking to do that?
Collins absolutely could be innocent, but neither the actions of the Baton Rouge PD or Collins is indicating that.
They're making him take a DNA test - how many others are they asking to do that?
Collins absolutely could be innocent, but neither the actions of the Baton Rouge PD or Collins is indicating that.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
A possibility. I already mentioned a while ago the NFL has many law enforcement contacts. Either they have a pretty good idea now or they don't. If there were smoking gun texts right after from Collins to a hitman stating, "did you do it yet?", wouldn't he be in custody already? I'm not questioning the possibilty that he could have done it, just that it isn't clear if a lot is known already, and if it was, or even suggestive, wouldn't he have been at least interviewed already (if not charged).
So another straightforward interpretation of the given facts is that, even if they have no idea, if it can't yet be ruled out, no team wants any part of the potential future stink that would be associated with drafting someone that may be facing double murder charges, EVEN IF IT WEREN'T LIKELY.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Maybe another guy heard that she may have gotten pregnant with Collins and murdered her. Or a drug deal went wrong. Or they got into an argument about the merits of Logical Positivism. Or a thousand things.
Again, he could be the father* and not the murderer, they aren't mutually exclusive.
Its one thing to connect the dots, but you are coloring outside the lines in the crayon book at times here.
* A paternity test is good police procedure, it COULD bear on motive. A bazillion things could hypothetically bear on motive, even in cases where somebody is innocent. Maybe he isn't the father, and that rules him out. If he is, than they might investigate him more closely (maybe already are), but again, that isn't conclusive proof that he is a murderer.
I'm not a Collins apologist, in the AH thread, I was pretty vocal from the beginning it could hardly have been more obvious if he did it than if Lloyd's legs were sticking out of the trunk of the rental car when he returned it. This is pretty far from that, I just don't get the rush to judgement, or making stuff up if it suits you, or the ridiculing of others in the thread that don't think retaining a lawyer (BY ITSELF) is automatically grounds for assuming he is guilty. If you take a poll of 100 close personal friends, and 99.999% say that is a nutty idea, you know what? It might be a nutty idea? Consider the possibility. Seriously. If you don't know, ask somebody.
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Slow your roll, There is no point in making any assumptions this early in the investigation where there have been virtually no facts about the case released. Anyone in the victim's recent personal history is automatically a suspect from jump street including Collins.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
You're being disingenuous with multiple definitions of "gamble." Professional sports teams need to make a calculated risk on how to value a potential employee, and can only do so by setting aside the question of morality, and approaching the question from the standpoint of the likelihood of his availability. Morality comes into play for them once the facts come out. If he's a homicidal maniac, they part ways immediately, and they've done the right thing.
That's very different from getting your jollies by placing a wager on whether this kid killed his own mate and offspring.
The former is necessary, the latter is both trivial and deplorable.
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Someone reported that he would take a paternity test before the death of the baby, however this has not been confirmed by the police or Collin's lawyer/agent.
12punch
Footballguy
There would be zero reward to pick Collins. If he is exonerated the team still picked a player possibly linked to the murder of a woman and child before being cleared, if charged then the team picked a murderer of a woman and child. This is a no win situation for a business, from a fantasy and football fan standpoint we perceive the possible upsides while ignoring the very real downsides.
massraider
Footballguy
Could a team ever recover from a player being possibly linked to a murder before being cleared?
I wonder if a team could ever recover from having a murderer on the roster? maybe we'll find out someday.
cstu
Footballguy
It's not my 'jollies' - the reason I brought up the bet is that almost no one is accepting there's a real possibility he's a murderer.
I see most people in this thread more concerned about how Collins can help their favorite team than the fact a women and her unborn child were murdered a week ago.
You can say 'morality comes into play for them once the facts come out' but I disagree. All this talk about how much money he's lost or how much can gain back, etc. is what I find trivial and deplorable.
To each their own.
/Off soapbox
The only person rushing to judgement here is you.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
I think most people can consider the possibility, but aren't assuming he is guilty like you. They can also consider the possibilty that he is innocent. There is this new thing in America, I think the Founding Fathers came up with it a few weeks ago so maybe it hasn't been widely disseminated or propogated yet, called innocent until proven guilty. It is a wacky, nutty, zany concept, it might have legs and catch on.
But I digress. Again, no team is signing him until they find out. We should know soon enough. It isn't like he is a skill position player, so the only reason anybody would discuss him is in the context of how he could help a team (why else would you - we aren't talking about him in normal circumstances, at least not this much?). In the interim, the option is to not talk about him at all, and others are free to do that, or talk about things like this until we find out definitively, one way or the other (if that is possible).
If you are offended, just avoid the thread. But if you are going to participate (and you crack wise, too, sometimes, and don't always address the situation with the same level of gravity you are trying to exhort from others - like the betting, would you talk about stuff like this if you were at the funeral, probably not?), I don't see the cause or basis for moralizing, when you are as in the dark as anybody else, we don't know he is innocent, you don't know he is guilty, bottom line, nobody knows. Why not act accordingly while we await more information? If he is proven guilty, and people bemoan the trivial loss to their team rather than the tragic, sad and senseless loss of life of a mother and daughter, THEN moralize. Not before. Just my opinion.
Even in the Hernandez thread, which was a lot different, I didn't tell people they were bad if they didn't think like me (that he was guilty), I would just respond to people who were moralizing for opposite reasons, and saying people were bad for not assuming he was innocent until guilty. In that case, I pointed out it is a jury instruction, not referring to the so called court of public opinion. In that case, unlike here, I thought there was a lot more evidence and information, and he was picked up by the police for questioning almost immediately. In that case, a jury instruction doesn't bind a non-juror to completely abandon logic and reason. But this is a much different situation, SO FAR. If there is no motive to "get there first", and "break the narrative" and be a "trend setter", why not just wait until we have some more information and it is actually warranted, before assuming the worst, about Collins, or those in the thread who may be more averse to jumping to conclusions based on minimal, in some cases non-existent information (which cognitive style, is more or less likely to lead to things we hopefully can agree on are unequivocally negative with no redeeming qualities, such as rumor mongering?).
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spider321
Footballguy
Hires lawyer. (Ok. Constitutional right and all)
Hires investigator to "prove" he did not do it. (That sure sounds a little odd)
No public statement of any kind. (Would it really hurt his case to show sadness publicly?)
Avoids police questioning for over a week. Yes, I know he's meeting them tomorrow(supposedly), but over a week later? Really?
1st round talent goes undrafted by all 32 teams. (ALL of them. Heck, a guy who everyone KNOWS is a thief was the first pick this year)
Limited information, yes.
I see smoke. I smell smoke. I hear a crackling noise. I feel heat.
There's probably a fire.
Hires investigator to "prove" he did not do it. (That sure sounds a little odd)
No public statement of any kind. (Would it really hurt his case to show sadness publicly?)
Avoids police questioning for over a week. Yes, I know he's meeting them tomorrow(supposedly), but over a week later? Really?
1st round talent goes undrafted by all 32 teams. (ALL of them. Heck, a guy who everyone KNOWS is a thief was the first pick this year)
Limited information, yes.
I see smoke. I smell smoke. I hear a crackling noise. I feel heat.
There's probably a fire.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
The vast majority in the thread are saying the smart thing to do is get a lawyer. I find them more credible, than thinking doing so in any way, shape or form points to guilt.
The PI could have been to help gather witness depositions, he was in CHI for the draft (remember, they were racing against the clock at that time?). Besides, do you think he would do it?
As to the lack of a public statement, I expect that could be on the advice of his attorney. He was reportedly in contact with teams, or their respective representatives were with each other?
It is a misnomer about the whole avoiding questioning thing, that is something you and cstu have hit hard in the thread. cstu said he was eluding the authorities. Than the best he could do was a radio station text as the plane was departing. That isn't eluding police. Later it was reported he was available, but they would schedule an appointment later (sounds like Monday?). That is pretty much the opposite of eluding behavior, he made himself available LAST WEEK. So that criticism is baseless, from the latest information that was in the thread.
32 teams avoided drafting him. There is a difference between there not being enough information to effectively rule him out of a heinous crime at present, and that being conclusive proof that he did it?
Again, if somebody is determined to interpret anything, including the mere ACT OF RETAINING A LAWYER as automatic evidence of guilt, despite efforts to disabuse you of the notion on like a 100-1 ratio, than maybe what you see, smell, hear and feel is the product of an overreaching/active imagination.
Collins may later be shown to be guilty, but for now, I don't find hiring a lawyer any more relevant or indicative of guilt than if he was eating an orange or wearing a striped shirt (with the rationale that subconsciously he was admitting his guilt, with the fruit color and fabric pattern code for prison wear and bars).
* Maxwell Smart goes undercover as a patient for a KAOS psycholgist, and takes a Rorshach test. After three straight man kissing a woman answers, the physchologist notes Max seems to be fixated on a man kissing a woman.
"But your the one with the dirty pictures!"
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Max Power
Footballguy
I think his attorney did more damage to his public image in the statement that was released than anything else. He mentioned La'el using the term "suspect" TWICE.
If his PR team played their cards a bit differently, La'el might have been drafted. IF their statement was that he was in no way involved and he will be returning to Baton Rouge to assist police and attend to a personal matter... the average person probably sees him more as a victim of circumstance than the current view of "someone being questioned in a murder".
We're all saying the NFL didn't draft the kid because of the potential for negative public perception. BUT this is only because the negative perception is out there already. I feel like if his PR team made a better effort to show La'el as a victim of this as well (assuming true) a team drafts that. Teams would smart enough to spin the whole "we drafted a kid who just lost a life partner and potentially child" card. They obviously cant spin the current situation because EVERYTHING that has come from his camp is an attempt to show he isn't guilty of the crime.
daveR
Footballguy
Exactly the opposite.
Consider... See, smell smoke. Tangible evidence. Hear crackling, feel heat.
Goes undrafted -- nothing happened. Didn't talk to police. Didn't make statements. This is not evidence, but rather, it's lack. Guess what, when there's no crime, there's no evidence.
You are speculating that his actions, or lack thereof, indicate his guilt. In truth, you are guessing.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
Something is up if 32 teams don't bite on him even in Round 7. I can't imagine they know if he is innocent or guilty no matter how much security they send down to Louisiana.
But what's DEFINITELY up is collusion amongst the NFL teams. If his agent said he has to be taken by Round 3, then I'm taking him in Round 3 even if the player and his agent don't really want me to. Look at the scrubs going in that round. The only reason not to take him is collusion.
If I find out in 2 months that he did it, I don't see any big deal in having to say I wasted my 3rd rounder or that I was hoping for the best of the situation from a player that had not been found guilty of anything when we drafted him.
But what's DEFINITELY up is collusion amongst the NFL teams. If his agent said he has to be taken by Round 3, then I'm taking him in Round 3 even if the player and his agent don't really want me to. Look at the scrubs going in that round. The only reason not to take him is collusion.
If I find out in 2 months that he did it, I don't see any big deal in having to say I wasted my 3rd rounder or that I was hoping for the best of the situation from a player that had not been found guilty of anything when we drafted him.
Disagree with your conclusions. First off, the 3rd round picks are pretty valuable. A lot of those guys will end up being good starters. Those are far from throw away picks. Second, it's not just a wasted pick if he ends up being indicted for murder. It also would have been a TON of bad publicity for the team, GM and owner who made that pick.
I don't think there's any collusion. The far more reasonable explanation is that NFL security (and not just each team separately) investigated what was going on and gave a report to all 32 teams with their conclusions. They probably don't know for sure if he did it or not, but reading between the lines, I think it's fair to assume that he's a "person of interest" for the police in this case. If that's the case, then it's perfectly reasonable for NFL teams not to draft him.
